2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumAnyone remember the Clinton supporters up in arms about Michigan?
Remember how after one of the biggest upsets in primary history, where nearly all the polls were wrong, how Clinton supporters hysterically alleged election fraud?
Yeah, I don't either.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)However I would say disenfranchisement is a BIG issue.
radical noodle
(8,116 posts)Or just people who don't understand a closed primary?
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)This seems to just be people who maybe don't get the rules.
radical noodle
(8,116 posts)I don't understand why some states use them. I see Utah hasn't documented that all the caucus voters are properly registered, so they're still going to have to go through them and check each one for registration. Good grief.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And Arizona really needs to get its act together as far as running elections is concerned.
But even so, 250k people voted early in Arizona, and they overwhelming voted for Clinton.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)Why tamper with the system that elected them, whether it is about changing our voting laws or getting money out of politics.
The Republican strategy of reducing polling places in Democratic strongholds and reducing opportunities for early voting , and the lack of oversight in terms of touchscreen voting are all great concerns.
Once the elections are over, though.....nobody gives a shit.
Land Shark
(6,346 posts)radical noodle
(8,116 posts)And it was close too...
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,146 posts)Who told them not to complain?
How high up does this go?
I demand answers NOW.
Bleacher Creature
(11,360 posts)There's something about the results that typically generate claims of election fraud here. I just wish I could put my finger on what it is . . .
Eric J in MN
(35,620 posts)...didn't have to wait in line for 4 hours, weren't given provisional ballots, and didn't have their votes counted by a private company.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,620 posts)NT
Cha
(302,810 posts)radical noodle
(8,116 posts)Since it's a closed primary, if they registered as Independents, they would not be able to vote.
dchill
(39,724 posts)changed to independent. In some cases, Republican.
radical noodle
(8,116 posts)That should be enough to prove it and get their provisional ballots counted. At least I hope so.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)You do understand that different states handle elections differently do you not? The election was not conducted the same way in Michigan as it was in Arizona. It seems pretty ridiculous to suggest that because there were no concerns raised about one election there should be no concerns raised about a completely different election.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But trying to delegitimize the winner isn't
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)It is not about who won, it is about the fact that people's votes were suppressed.
I am sick of crap like the OP that dismisses legitimate concerns about voter suppression, it is a real issue and dismissing people as conspiracy theorists if they speak out is disgusting. People need to raise hell when the vote is suppressed and it is undemocratic to dismiss their concerns.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Despite the fact the state government runs the election.
So that is what is going on in this forum.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The fact that a few Bernie fans were incorrect about a certain fact however does not make it OK to dismiss legitimate concerns about the fact that a lot of people ran into problems at the poling booths today.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)about Debbie Wasserman-Schultz stealing the Arizona primary.
They are not dismissing those legitimately concerned with disenfranchisement.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)delegitimize the votes that were cast.
Which they did for Iowa. And Nevada. And Massachusetts.
Bernie fans are hijacking the issue of voting rights in order to invalidate the will of the voters--that is what this is targeting.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The complaints I have seen raised were about the failures of the registration process that forced people to cast provisional ballots that will not be counted for a while as well long lines.
Those are not complaints about votes cast, it is a complaint about people being denied the ability to cast a vote.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The caucus system, as far as I'm concerned, is one of the most undemocratic election systems to exist in this country.
My point is that claims of voter suppression tend to almost only exist in states where Sanders loses, and given other patterns of behavior, they have little to do with actual suppression, and everything to do with attempting to overturn a result they didn't like. I know you spoke out about Minnesota, but that was an anomaly.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)Voter suppression has been a big issue in recent years, these concerns started long before Bernie got into the race and it will continue to be an issue long after he leaves.
Your claim that this is all about Bernie supporters is absolute bullshit, many of us have cared about voter suppression for years. That is why we fought against voter ID laws and have tried to get automatic voter registration and expanded voting roghts. For you to suggest it is all about Bernie shows your ignorance as to how long this has been an issue, it did not start in 2016.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The point I'm making is that Sanders is going to continue to lose in large states, especially ones with closed primaries, so long as his supporters keep chalking up his losses to some mythical "election fraud."
Sanders wasn't going to win Arizona even if the election system worked absolutely perfectly. It was a closed primary where hundreds of thousands had made up their minds well ahead of time, and where the Clintons have had a strong network since the 90s.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)The issues being raised in Arizona are serious issues that are effecting people's right to vote, but you seem more concerned about your candidate than you do about voting rights.
I am in Minnesota and our caucuses were a huge mess and extremely undemocratic, Bernie won by a big margin but I still called out the undemocratic nature of the caucuses. If you had any integrity you would call out voter suppression when your candidate wins as well.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I live in a state with voter ID laws on the books--actual voter suppression.
The allegations of "voter suppression" out of places like Massachusetts and Nevada have nothing to do with any regard for democracy. They have everything to do with a certain candidate's supporters being sore losers.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)As much as you may want to pretend this is all about those bad Bernie supporters there has been a lot of concerns expressed about the integrity of the vote for years. There have also been a lot of people like you who dismiss legitimate concerns as if they were all coming from sore losers. If people would actually listen to concerns about voter suppression rather than instantly assuming the people expressing those concerns were sore losers maybe something could be done to fix the broken system.
R B Garr
(17,325 posts)Clinton county, so I expected some big discrepancies.
But I didn't blame it on Sanders or his supporters or Wall Street or 1%'ers or a rigged economy or oligarchs or Jane Sanders or Walmart or Obama.....
Logical
(22,457 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)tazkcmo
(7,419 posts)No complaints about fraud or illegalities. Again, congratulations.
I do hope you all would agree that Arizona's and several other states' elections were less than professional and far from a standard that the "leader of the free world" should approve of. From reducing polling places to 60 from 200, denying poorer residents of nearby polling places, stringent ID laws to running out of ballots, our elections seem to be very poorly run. Then there's the separate but related issue of voting machines and lack of transparency.
I hope we can all agree to press the Democratic Party to adopt a plank in the platform that calls for a serious and thorough upgrade to our election process to eliminate the above mentioned issues.
I am in no way trying to insinuate that Sec Clinton's victory in Arizona was helped due to the poor running of the election there. I believe she may have lost some votes as did any other Democratic candidate as these problems effect poor minorities more severely than affluent whites. We all know some of it is done just for this reason. But some is just shitty administration of the event itself.
Again, congratulations on the big win.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The election system in this country needs a serious overhaul, as far as I'm concerned.
Thank you for the congratulations, and a preemptive congratulations from me for what looks like to be a good seven contests for Bernie.
tazkcmo
(7,419 posts)We all get very emotional and passionate during primary season and in some ways it's even fun. Sometimes it really sucks, too. I know I'm guilty of being an ass at times. Having said that, I was confident when posting that congratulations post (Which I mean) that we could agree on this point.
Also, thank you for your preemptive congratulations. I hope it turns out that way, of course.
Anyway, congrats again and after we're done bashing each others' brains out in this election, let's all get together and clean this election mess up. The neighbors can see it and it's embarrassing!
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)tazkcmo
(7,419 posts)I want world class, above board, transparent, enabling, envy of the world elections. I hope you do, too.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)One side has an over abundance of nasty, bullying, bitter, sore losing supporters, and the other just doesn't.
You're right, we Clinton supporters did not behave this way, not about New Hampshire, not about Michigan, not about any of Sanders wins. Oh I am sure there were one offs, but that's not close to a majority of us or even a significant number of us.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I am sure attacking Bernie supporters constantly like you do is going to be very helpful to Hillary if she wins the nomination and needs Bernie supporters to come to her side.
If you think you are helping your candidate in the slightest bit you are sorely mistaken.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)They behaved and they can vote Jill Stein or stay home for all I care. All the Sanders supporters in DU won't stop Hillary from winning the General election.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)If you think your candidate can win the general election without the support of Bernie supporters you have the right to believe that, but it is pretty clear that your political analysis is just as shallow as that of the people you debate on Fox News.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)It just so happens that what you said about "the overwhelming majority" of Bernie supporters was very insulting. You said we could all vote for Jill Stein or stay home, if you think that helps your candidate it is your choice to think that way just don't think it makes you an asset to your candidate.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)behaved that way.
Everything else is you pretending that DU members can swing the election. Which we can't.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I am sure glad that you are so well behaved that you would never engage in things like name calling like calling people "Bernie Bros".
You are so well behaved that you need to set the example for everyone else don't you.
P.S. Not all Bernie supporters are on DU, nor are all the attacks that have been made against Bernie supporters been on DU. You and the people making arguments like yours on other sites are turning off Bernie supporters across the nation. If you think it helps your candidate it shows how little you understand about politics.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Your fellow Sanders supporters, acknowledge that Bernibros is a real problem and you are on your way. Sanders himself acknowledged that Berniebros were an issue so you're only following his leadership.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)You might have a bit more credibility if you actually behaved the way you expect others to behave however.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Hillary now!
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)If you go on Fox you should at least try to come up with some decent arguments to debate them with. When the best argument you can come up with is name calling by using the word "Berniebros" over and over again it shows you don't have a real argument and you are just as shallow as the people you debate on Fox.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)effort in.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I never did, what I said is that you are as shallow as the people you debate on Fox. Unless you were debating Bernie Sanders then Bernie had nothing to do with what I said about your appearances on Fox.
hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511549460
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511547066
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511547057 Has been hidden by jury.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511534917
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=76426
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110780242
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110780014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/110779776
Plenty of nastiness, well-received, and generally indefensible. I hope you find this illuminating.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)hellofromreddit
(1,182 posts)This website is quite full of people who are acutely aware of the behavior of others yet blind to their own--even when confronted with it.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)When you supported Obama?
LisaM
(28,299 posts)The issue in Michigan was a really faulty polling model, independents criss crossing sll over the place, and Dems voting for Kasich to stop Trump.
chillfactor
(7,672 posts)but when Bernie loses it is always somebody else's fault...
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Isn't it?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Sorty to disappoint.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)And now I have to go to bed so we'll continue to play another time m'kay?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,984 posts)Thank you in advance.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Thank you in advance.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Cha
(302,810 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)because it was an open primary. Never mind that they would have insisted the same state's results were totally valid if HRC had won, as ever poll had predicted she would.
There was plenty of bad sportsmanship on your side about Michigan.
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)The political machines (and i don't mean the voting machines) that can be used to rig the vote.
Clinton on the other hand has the full power of the establishment behind her