2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumQuestion for Sanders and Clinton supporters,what progressive values must you sacrifice
to support your candidate?
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DanTex
(20,709 posts)Not sure how Bernie supporters can stand to rationalize his gun votes.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)The things one learns.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)It seems that not understanding the difference between "single payer" and "universal healthcare" is a prerequisite for being a Bernie fan.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)
Cant wait to see that happen. 
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)what's progressive about "No we can't", or we need more wars, or the private prison industry, or the drug war?
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)IF(assuming she is nominated)she doesn't move to the right on anything at all.
And really, if she gets it in Philly, she won't need to. This isn't "a center-right country" anymore, if it ever really was.
The people are ready for real change now.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)(btw...you might want to research who Woody was campaigning for in 1948).
GeorgeGist
(25,323 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Unfortunately, the candidate he did seem to support, got stomped. So, not much progress there.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I mean all those Nordic countries don't exist?
Sorry, I am not settling for the candidate who "has the potential to maybe do something good".
I want the candidate who has been fighting for the little guy all his life.
It's sad and pathetic that you and your ilk won't even fight for what's right and wave a white flag before the battle has begun. It speaks volumes and that train of thought has hurt millions...
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)However, Danes -- like most Europeans -- settle for smaller houses/apartments, fewer cars, higher taxes, the government partners with corporations, etc. In return, they have a better welfare system, healthcare, etc. I would hope we get there someday. But, it's going to be a long process.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)Racism exists here too. In fact America is one of the most racist countries on the planet. We see it every day at Tea Party rallies.
People in Europe can settle for less cars because they have a public transit which is entrenched in daily life. "Strassebahn" comes to mind in Germany. I lived there a decade as non military as I was hitched to a German.
It will be a long process only because some people hold us back. That is what myself and other Bernie supporters are fighting for. The time is now. We simply can't go on with the current system while the middle class collapses.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)bunch of racists like them.
I get why they settle for less cars, etc. But, I don't think most Americans are ready to do that. They are the ones holding us back. Most folks here aren't ready for what they see are concessions. They are stupid, in my opinion. But ranting at the sky, ain't gonna change that.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Last edited Sun Apr 3, 2016, 03:40 PM - Edit history (1)
It's not fantasy to challenge the notion that only tiny changes are possible. Tiny changes DON'T help people, by the way.
And we don't yell at the sky-we just defend our positions without apology.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Passionate support for change isn't ranting...it's conviction.
If you're not passionate, you've given up.
Viva_La_Revolution
(28,791 posts)
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)That what we don't win today can be achieved in the future if we continue to work hard & support our candidates.
Sanders supporters think politics begins and ends with the campaign, and that by selling RW talking points about Clinton they'll win. Instead they'll have sacrificed their souls.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Sort of what is meant by "sacrificing their souls".
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)We speak honestly and out of sincere conviction, and so does our candidate.
And I support gun control, but it's not more important than peace, economic justice, healthcare for all and education for all. it doesn't outweigh everything else.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Like insisting, against all reason and evidence, that "Hillary is a corrupt liar" and "There's no difference between Dems & the GOP", or by seeing the VRWC slinging mud at Clinton for 30 yrs & then crowing about how dirty she is. You don't try and be honest & correct the record. YOU JOIN IN WITH THE CROWING!
It's RW propaganda in support of a fascist GOP victory, and we see posted here on DU every day.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And we don't think electing our candidate will bring instant Utopia. We never thought either of those things.
The difference is that we know that change has to be noticeable to matter...that tiny changes aren't anything and don't lead to anything.
We are trying to build a long-term movement for change. The Clinton campaign wants all activism to end the day after the election(the way Rahm essentially ended activism for the first half of Obama's first term by ordering the Obama movement to simply disband and stay the hell away from D.C.).
Activism must be continuous. It must come from below, yet encouraged and accepted as valid from above. Activists must NEVER be told to shut up and go away by officeholders who call themselves "progressive".
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Both mostly discuss mental illness in association with gun violence and gun-control, and offer 'treatment' as the answer to problems facing 1 in 5 Americans (aka 20% of the American population)
Neither address other outstanding needs of a population which avg's 80% joblessness that isn't reflected in unemployment numbers, and the crises in housing, food, and lack of general medical and dental care that results from the poverty brought on by a jobless rates that's mostly due to pubic fear and discrimination
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)fought for civil rights, but BLM helped him understand he needed to do more. I'm sure bringing this to his attention, he would come up with a plan for addressing it. Treatment is a big part of it though. My husband has two suicidal friends right now, neither which are seeking help.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)nothing has surfaced in any of his speeches or interviews to suggest a change in his orientation. I've not communicated my concern to the Clinton campaign.
Treatment is always an issue when discussing mental health in the US. Somewhere between 66 and 75 percent of people who suffer mental illness don't seek treatment for one reason or another. As discussed by the psychiatric industry, the most frequent issue that prevents people from seeking treatment isn't access. The Yuuge! hurdle is fear of the very real discrimination that too typically follows being assigned a diagnosis of a mental disorder.
If we want to get more people treated to prevent the fraction of violence committed by persons with mental disorders, then this country has to protect those persons against and mitigate the damage of discrimination against people with mental disorders. Promoting the connection of mental illness with gun violence doesn't help that, even a little bit.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)easily. Those with mental health issues do need legal protection. So does the public. I live just a few miles away from a high school that had a deadly mass shooting. Both my son and daughter have had threats at their school and have had their schools on lock down. Both my husband and I have mental disorders. My husband has PTSD which comes with a lot of stigma. I have debilitating anxiety and depression. We are both under treatment. My husband is doing so much better. I am still struggling a bit, but am not giving up.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)and within all those possiblities, the afflicted individuals also vary greatly in the type and degree of dysfunction that their disorders generate.
But the public, and politicians, mostly lump them all together and apply the same prejudices and mistaken assumptions about lack of cognitive capacity, emotional stability and dangerousness and make them accepted icons for disparagement.
It's a shame that as a nation we're so misinformed and seemingly intent on remaining so while denying a problem that impacts directly 20 percent of the American population.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)qualified to treat his disorder. He finally came across a doctor with an advanced degree that was qualified to help him. If the majority of psychologists aren't even knowledgeable enough about mental disorders how are the public or politicians supposed to tell a dangerous person from someone who isn't? Maybe when you contact people about this issue you could advocate for more research and more people to go into the psychology field so that we can know more about these issues. Obama advocated for STEM education and jobs. Maybe we need to be advocating for more psychology education and jobs.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)We have many laws and a public interest in dealing with bad MDs, DOs, Dentists etc. but no one really thinks about psychological malpractice.
I have a personality disorder that historically is mostly diagnosed in women, I was denied treatment by a clinic that specialized in that illness because I am male. At the time they were the only clinic within 70 miles that used a treatment that was clinically proven effective. Nothing in their literature said then or now that they only treat women, and I had no recourse available.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)wrong for them to turn you away because of your gender and you should have been able to sue them.
auntpurl
(4,311 posts)Hillary is basically my ideal candidate.
PonyUp
(1,680 posts)
Robbins
(5,066 posts)my views align very well with my candiate-bernie.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I want what I feel is right. We've given corporate America enough breaks, it's high time the American people get theirs!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You can disagree with someone while supporting them
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Gun control and the F-35 fighter. That's about it.
CentralMass
(15,265 posts)The deck is stacked in favor of the corpirate interests who have effectively bought out government. Look at the critical legislation where there should have been a unanimous Democratic yeah or nay vote where after all the bullshit posturing we saw numerous Democrats voting against our best interests.
So when the next vote comes up for a cross country pipeline, or legislation on fracking, or fiscal policies that further gut the social safety net where over 46 million people are living in poverty, or foreign policy decisions that will create the next powder keg in middle east, who do I trust that will be on the right side of these issues ? Bernie Sanders.
I see him as a leader who will not cave on these critical issues. He has not and will not be bought by the corporate interests. He will stand his ground and steer the party in direction that rebuilds the country from the bottom up or at the very least not cede anymore ground to them.
The Clintons have become the ultimate insider power brokers. Their view of how to run the country and the world has been injected with steroids and money.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)You should ask:
"What heinous policies can you redefine as 'Progresssive' so as to pretend your candidate supports 'Progessive' values?
Then you'll get lots of answers:
* Aggressive war
* Private prison industry
* Corporate campaign financing
* Bad trade agreements
* Coups d'Etat
firebrand80
(2,760 posts)If I were waiting on a candidate that I agreed with on everything, I'd never vote.
Like any other year, I'll be voting for the person best suited for the job, taking everything into account. The hyperbolic rhetoric about the "soul of our nation" and whatnot has never really appealed to me.