2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumA case for supporting Hillary
I voted for Bernie in the MA primary, attended a couple campaign events, and gave money to Bernie's campaign, but the other day finally donated some money to the Hillary campaign. Some people here have actually paid attention to my posts and noticed how often I have criticized Bernie, but my criticism is almost never intended to be of Bernie. My posts are almost always responses to over-the-top attacks on Hillary or those posts that treat Bernie as if he's the second coming of Jesus. I have supported Bernie, not because of what is a more mixed history than some would like to admit, but because his economic plan is what this country needs to restore economic justice and his message is clear and simple, which is good politics. That said, overall I like Hillary's foreign policy more than Bernie's, which I think is too libertarian. In my opinion, Obama has a terrific foreign policy, and generally Hillary is closer to Obama than is Bernie.
But there are good reasons to support Hillary, some of which many people won't like:
- Hillary is a masterful politician. She is the most powerful and influential woman in the US, and has risen steadily through the ranks of an overwhelmingly male establishment despite its incessant attacks. Her story is an inspiration.
- She has been unfairly and often brutally maligned for decades, and I tend to have sympathy and affection for people who are bullied.
- She understands the rough and tumble of politics, and will not expect ethics and idealism to prevail, but will play hardball politics. Like her husband, she will win some fights and lose some fights, but she will certainly bruise her opponents. I think that's why she has a lot of union support. There is something very blue collar about her methods that I admire.
- She has a very good record on social issues, and her record makes her a liberal by most measures.
- Her foreign policy is arguably good. While Bernie is more libertarian, Hillary boldly embraced the Arab Spring, which is the first time in years that the secular voice in the Arab world got to demonstrate it's power. It was an important achievement. She wants to fight ISIS, which is a despicable genocidal organization. And, overall, as SoS she helped fix a lot of the damage that Bush had done and dramatically reduced the level of hostility we had with Iran and North Korea. She also spoke out forcefully in international forums about gay rights and women's rights.
- She has won the support of many people I respect, including people who helped change our country for the better in terms of civil rights, women's rights, and gay rights; she has the support of many groups and unions that I respect; she has the support of many of the mothers of those whose unarmed children were killed by police. I trust these people, and that influences my decision.
- She obviously has great experience, and has connections to the levers of power throughout the US, which means she might be able to get quite a bit done.
- I believe that the election of a woman to the presidency would be very meaningful to young girls who grow up in a society where women are still quite scarce in leadership roles. I know that Obama's victory was such a happy moment for so many people of color in our country, and anyone who remembers that knows how moving it was. I believe a Hillary victory would be an incredibly happy moment for women and girls, even for those who support other candidates.
- While one can point to her inconsistencies over the years, Bernie too has inconsistencies on issues such as immigration, gun control, states rights, and on the importance of minority issues independent of the economic issues. They have both changed, and the election is forcing them to change more. That said, I have no problems with change because policy is more often driven by current events and the mood of the country than by a political leader's beliefs.
- While there are differences between the platforms of Hillary and Bernie, there are no dramatic ones and that is largely proven in this forum, where so many threads are devoted to various gotcha moments, past mistakes, and false scandals that were manufactured by political enemies.
- Republicans have plans to steal the election at least legally (voter IDs, reduced polling places, reduced polling hours) and possibly illegally (electronic voting fraud). I think the Democratic establishment is better positioned to combat that (or fight fire with fire) than is an outsider movement like that of Bernie's.
- Democrats are most progressive when there are powerful social movements compelling them to be so. Would FDR have been the man he was without with the labor movement pushing for action? Would JFK and LBJ have pushed for civil rights and voting rights if not for MLK? One of the problems we witnessed with Obama is that the social movement behind him got him elected, and once he won, the social movement ended up backing the establishment since Obama was now the establishment. Even today's movement is not making demands on Obama; it's making demands on the next president. If Bernie gets elected, his social movement will be co-opted by Washington, but if Hillary gets elected, there's a greater chance that the social movement will stay strong and activist and anti-DC in a progressive way.
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highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)Hippie punching is what they call it. Rahm Emanuel was good at it. I expect Hillary would be very good at it too.
If she manages to eke out a victory (I'm still rooting for Bernie, and will to the last drop), then I hope she will learn from the popularity of his platform that going and being Progressive is not a bad thing. It's a popular thing.
If Hillary was to govern from there, I would be fine with it, happy even, and perfectly delighted to have a woman President.
I just don't want to be one of the Hippies that gets punched by something nasty like unnecessary cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and the like.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)
Demsrule86
(68,589 posts)When Hillary was in the Senate...she voted with Sanders 93% of the time. So the idea that Hillary is some conservative is wrong...she was always way more liberal than Bill who only went right during the rightwing 90's because he had to ...in order to get elected and saved us from a GOP-dominated court. She tried for single payer way back when...the fact is it won't happen no matter what Bernie says because 65 to 70 percent of people have workplace insurance and like it better than the idea of single payer...reality bites. What we do have is health care which my daughter who has pre-existing is on...she would have no health care without it. Nancy Pelosi sacrificed her majority to bring us health care which we have been trying to get for 100 + years. As for Social Security...you do know if the GOP had agreed to work with Obama it would already be cut right? Hillary is too smart to cut social security. And no matter what either (and I am really angry with Bernie) would be better than any Republican.
betsuni
(25,544 posts)There are no dramatic differences between Clinton and Sanders.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)Or perhaps it's because she has borrowed so many of his positions for t he purposes of the primary. In that case, we've seen the drill before.
If she wins, I hope against hope she will stick with the winning Progressive platform. I would love not to be disappointed.
Response to Onlooker (Original post)
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RiverLover
(7,830 posts)100% agree with every word.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)I fail to comprehend why so many Hillary supporters can't see the reality that is Hillary Clinton.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)
sendero
(28,552 posts)... and I would add that your experience and connections are useless if your goals are misguided. HRC never saw a war or a "Free Trade" agreement she didn't like.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)Hillary is more of a Goldwater Girl a.k.a. Republican-in-disguise than most would think. She'll mouth any group's buzz words and bob her head with the saucer eyes while doing it, to get votes, and then screw that group over without a second thought. Case in point, BLM.
This is a woman who doesn't know if she is under sniper fire or shaking a bunch of friendly hands at an airport.
This is a woman who can screw up email so badly that it becomes an FBI matter, damaging national security.
Considering the previous two points, do we REALLY want to give her the nuclear football? I sure don't.
This is a woman who has never met a rule or a law that she doesn't feel entitled to flaunt. Case in point, coincidentally taking State Dept. actions for companies or governments that just happen to coincide with donations to her family foundation. That's the definition of a corporate whore. (She is not above being called what she is; if she doesn't want to be called that, she need only refrain from being one.)
And she is most probably a Trojan horse for her husband's illegal third term, and will be extremely influenced by the likes of Henry Kissinger and the neocons and neoliberals. Her cabinet, and SCOTUS, will be from the worst of the lobbying corporate donors.
Hillary and Sanders are NOTHING alike. The fact that they may vote the same on certain mostly social issues does not mean they are anything alike as people or as leaders.
From 2011, when Bill was obviously not in office:
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Although I suspect Hillary would have gone far on her own had she never met Bill. Unbridled opportunism tends to get people far. But we'll never know.
Demsrule86
(68,589 posts)Women are under attack...in Georgia and Texas, they are forced to carry dead babies to term...risking sepsis. In ohio...most IUD's are now illegal...Kasich the moderate signed a law that forces women to carry downs babies to term and if a woman has an abortion ...hard since Kaisch shut down planned parenthood...she can not be admitted to a public hospital should there be complications. Think about that. And you smear Hillary with generalized attacks but don't give any details... yo support your accusations. Women still don't make the money, men do...women candidates are still reprimanded by finger wagging men for their tone and their 'shouting"...sorry but you are wrong. I have not seen a riskier time for women than now...and the thought that Sander's attacks may help the GOP win makes me very angry.The courts are at stake. By the way, some years ago when I lived in GA, a rightie doctor almost killed me and left me infertile. Under current law, I would be dead. I had started miscarrying and was left to bleed out while they waited for test results to confirm...the baby was dead...well I was almost dead...my husband came and screamed bloody murder...and a young resident saved my life...he would not be allowed to do so today. A woman president is not a pointless milestone...and I like Hillary. Your post is full of half truths and innuendo...and probably would play well at some righty site.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)...are there any policy related reasons to support Hillary over Sanders?
Onlooker
(5,636 posts)... Bernie is very libertarian on foreign policy, while the Obama administration has been less so. I think her overall support for the Arab Spring was a very positive and I think her strong opposition to ISIS is positive, but I think the US should be engaged in cases where fascistic groups are acting nuts.
On gun control, I think Bernie has it wrong about giving gun manufacturers special privileges to reduce their risk of liability. Frankly, the only language corporations understand is money, and if the victims of gun violence win $100 million from a manufacturer, that manufacturer is going to give much more serious thought to how it can make guns safer, perhaps through technology, training, setting requirements for the sale of their guns, and so on.
On issues like healthcare, I think Bernie is better. On issues like the minimum wage and college, Bernie is better, but Hillary is quite good. On Wall Street issues, there's debate among progressive economists as to who is better, but one presumes that Bernie would appoint people who would enforce the rules with much more vigor. On climate change, they have a substantive difference -- Bernie is better on the issue, but Hillary puts more emphasis on energy independence and is more supportive of nuclear energy, plus Hillary does bring considerable foreign policy experience which is necessary for any meaningful climate change policy.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)
Avalux
(35,015 posts)The red flag for me - you like Hillary's foreign policy. Have you not been paying attention?