Do you think Vermont should recognize gay marriage? Bernie "No"

[Onlooker]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-gay-marriage_us_569fcc4de4b0a7026bf9e06f

Sanders did support civil unions as far back as 15 years ago, but it was for the same reason he opposed the federal Defense of Marriage Act in 1996: his strong belief in state’s rights. He wasn’t advocating for legal marriage for same-sex couples. He actually avoided the subject.

As one Vermont columnist put it in 2000, getting a straight answer from Sanders on gay marriage “was like pulling teeth... from a rhinoceros.” In 2006, Sanders said he supported civil unions but not same-sex marriage, again deferring to states.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/11/03/sanders-evolving-and-wishy-washy-stance-on-same-sex-marriage/

Indeed, a noted Vermont political writer, the late Peter Freyne, wrote in 2000 that Sanders deserved the “Wishy-Washy Award hands down” for his “carefully crafted non-statement statement” on whether the Vermont legislature should craft a law that permitted civil unions for homosexuals.

“Obtaining Congressman Bernie Sanders’ position on the gay marriage issue was like pulling teeth…from a rhinoceros,” Freyne said after the Vermont Supreme Court urged the Vermont legislature to draft a law. “Sanders publicly tried walking the tightrope — applauding the court’s decision and the cause of equal rights without supporting civil marriage for same-sex couples.” Freyne accused Sanders of not wanting to offend “his conservative, rebel-loving rural following out in the hills.”

...

In 2006, when Sanders first ran for the Senate, he said that the state was not ready for gay marriage, given the fact that the civil-union law had caused so much political controversy after it was approved. In an Associated Press article about Sanders’ opposition to a constitutional amendment prohibiting gay marriage, he was asked whether Vermont should legalize full marriage rights for same-sex couples. He replied: “Not right now, not after what we went through.”

[jfern]

1. He just said it would be better to wait a bit

O'Malley was governor for 6 years before he legalized SSM, and I don't remember anyone giving him shit for that.

[beam me up scottie]

2. This shit again? He never opposed it. How many more times does this have to be explained to you?

This is opposition to marriage equality:

This is not:

I was a strong supporter of civil unions, I believe that. I voted against the DOMA bill, I believe that the federal government should not be involved in overturning Massachusetts or any other the state because I think the whole issue of marriage is a state issue.

Bernie opposed allowing the feds to overturn states who had passed same sex legislation, he never opposed the legislation.

He said it was too soon to try to pass it in Vermont and he was right, it would have failed.

Stop trying to smear Bernie's record by taking a quote out of context, cutting it off and using it as a title, you obviously know nothing about the subject.

[Onlooker]

4. So, you admit Bernie defended a state's right to define marriage?

... but I love your bolded quote that shows he believes that the issue is states rights, a generally right wing concept. He voted against DOMA because he believed the right to marriage should be left up to the states! Do you understand why that is a right-wing point of view? How many states do you think would support gay marriage if it was left up to the states, not the federal government?

[beam me up scottie]

5. Bernie defended states' rights to pass same sex marriage legislation.

You do understand that the fight for marriage equality had to begin at the state level, right? That the struggle WAS a state's rights issue?

Knowing that, in what universe is supporting states' rights to allow gay people to get married a right wing concept?




If you're still unclear about what a right wing argument against same sex marriage looks like here's an example:

And if you're still confused about the lies told about Bernie's record this guy can help you:

Oh and one more time: Bernie never opposed marriage equality in Vermont, he said it would be best to wait and he was right, the legislation wouldn't have passed at that time. That's hardly the same thing as saying "marriage is a sacred bond between a man and a woman".

[Onlooker]

7. No, he defended states rights ...

... just as he did on gun control and on the anti-immigrant vigilante Minutemen. He defended a state's rights to have civil unions, gay marriage, or be against gay marriage. He voted against DOMA on conservative grounds, not civil rights grounds. He was still ahead of the crowd overall, but he was no hero, and that's why the gay rights movement treats him as a footnote at best.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Lol! Now you're just making up stories because you can't admit you're wrong.

And I'll listen to people who actually know about lgbt rights, not someone who is just using them to score points on DU.

Your abysmal lack of knowledge precedes you, remember? You've been taken to task before:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511461770

[Onlooker]

12. Scottie, are you a child?

Grow up man. Read what Sanders said. He opposed DOMA on states rights grounds. That's a fact. If you don't know what states rights means, then look it up. Try to understand what is wrong with that kind of reasoning (assuming you're a progressive).

And, now Scotte, I was not taken to task in that thread. Some agreed with me, others didn't. The fact is that the Human Rights Campaign and other gay groups support the Clintons over Sanders. You may not like that or may think they are actually homophobic. Who knows? But, there are reasons for seeing the Clintons as being a positive force in the history of gay rights.

I know about lgbt rights because I've been part of the struggle for a long time. I don't know where your knowledge comes from, but clearly not from gay history. Your knowledge appears to be limited to what the Bernie Sanders campaign tells you. Do some homework. Grow up.

[beam me up scottie]

13. And again with the deflection and speculation. You really are confused.

Scottie, are you a child?

Quit with the ad hominems while you're behind, every time you go down this road your post gets hidden.

Grow up man.

I'm not a man but keep it up, sport, you're really on a roll!

He opposed DOMA on states rights grounds. That's a fact. If you don't know what states rights means, then look it up. Try to understand what is wrong with that kind of reasoning

The state's rights talking point has been debunked over and over again, give it a rest.

assuming you're a progressive

I'm not the one whose progressive cred is in question here, you're supporting and defending the candidate who crusaded against marriage equality.

And, now Scotte, I was not taken to task in that thread.

Yeah ya kinda were, and it wasn't the first time.

The fact is that the Human Rights Campaign and other gay groups support the Clintons over Sanders.

Red herring.

You may not like that or may think they are actually homophobic. Who knows?

But, there are reasons for seeing the Clintons as being a positive force in the history of gay rights.

Here are just two why she's not:

I know about lgbt rights because I've been part of the struggle for a long time. I don't know where your knowledge comes from, but clearly not from gay history. Your knowledge appears to be limited to what the Bernie Sanders campaign tells you. Do some homework. Grow up.

More ad hominems.



My knowledge comes from living in Vermont at the time and being an ally all my life, your knowledge seems to be limited to Clinton campaign propaganda - otherwise you'd have known that the articles you keep posting about Bernie have been debunked.

I don't believe anything that you say at this point, you've been telling falsehoods about Bernie for months, about his record on guns (you claimed he voted against banning assault weapons 5 times), about war (you claimed he voted to "topple Saddam" and compared it to the IWR), you red bait (CASTRO!!!), hell you even claim to be a Bernie supporter but I've never seen you post a single positive thread about him, it's all hit pieces based on smears you read elsewhere:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511719445
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511685111
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511622240
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511600213
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511585996
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511547057


And when your talking points and falsehoods are debunked you double down and post them again and again as if it's magic and will somehow convince people if you say it often enough. Like this thread where you took a quote out of context and pretended Bernie opposed marriage equality in Vermont. Do you really think we can't see what you're doing?

You claim to be an expert on lgbt rights yet you're obviously still confused about this little bit of history.

Seriously?

[lakeguy]

14. Excellent post!

Must have taken some effort to put that together.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Thanks, I learned from the best on DU.

Especially DU2, now those were the good old days, back when liberals were liberals and you knew who the enemy was.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

16. Results of jury

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Thu Apr 14, 2016, 07:04 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Lol! Now you're just making up stories because you can't admit you're wrong.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1729277

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

BMUS has apparently elected themselves the police of DU. This is stalking behavior, and is rude. "your abysmal lack of knowledge" is a personal attack and is just over the top. Please hide this rude personal attack, yes the other persons point is flawed but this is *Not* how you point it out.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Apr 14, 2016, 07:09 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Of course this post is okay. Bmus is passionate about correcting disinformation.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Seriously? After the vitriol of last night this is tame. Leave It.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Actually, alerting is 'the police of DU'. This doesn't cross a line, it is a conversation.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[beam me up scottie]

17. Oh my goodness, 7-0?

Someone has to go sit in the corner for 24 hours.

Great jury!

[delrem]

11. No. You can't drag him down to your level.

In fact, it'd take quite the Republican that could be dragged down that far.

[bjo59]

3. All I know for sure is that on of the people who spoke before Bernie at the Washington Square Park

rally was an older gay guy who made quite a big deal out being gay and having been a supporter for Bernie for decades. One of the reasons for this was Bernie's long time support of gay rights. Tim Robbins introduced this speaker as having been his representative at some point in the past. I'd have to watch the beginning of the rally again to be able to put a name to the face. There's a lot of implying, insinuating, de-contextualizing, etc. with regard to Sanders going on consistently in the mainstream press; therefore, I'll take the self identified "yuuuuuuge gay" speaker's comments as more reliable than those by corporate news outlets.

[Prism]

6. Don't

Do not.

The last thing I ever want to see is a Hillary supporter, the last Democrat on Earth to support gay equality, lecturing me on anyone else.

No.

And you're not a nice person for doing so.

[betsuni]

8. K&R

[delrem]

9. Look, you can't make Sanders look worse than Clinton. You can't.

So just fucking quit it and wake the fuck up.

[Nye Bevan]

18. I'm happy both candidates have evolved on this issue (nt)