Debate really only came down to three minutes

[bigtree]

Jesse Lehrich ‏@JesseLehrich 48m48 minutes ago
Sanders Struggles To Back Up Idea Clinton Has Been Compromised By Donations
https://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/sanders-struggles-to-back-up-idea-clinton-has-been-compromis#.pw3navx3X …
#DemDebate

Jesse Lehrich ‏@JesseLehrich 54m54 minutes ago
so like, what's he gonna run on now? that was the whole thing, right?
https://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/sanders-struggles-to-back-up-idea-clinton-has-been-compromis#.pw3navx3X …

[SoLeftIAmRight]

1. all those billions mean nothing

sad so many are so dumb that they believe that K street has no influence

[Hortensis]

34. Now it's billions? What is ignorant and sad is to

believe that our presidents are bought and paid for. Few can become president, and that gives those who demonstrate the ability to do that great potential power. They can and do accept donations from people who want to elect a candidate who shares their values and goals -- the same way and reason we give our $10 a month autopay donations knowing there will be no corrupt favors given in return.

[Armstead]

49. The whole political system is rigged -- there's no debate about that

That is pretty widely accepted -- it's not something Sanders just brought up recently. It's steadily gotten to the point of absurdity in the last 30 years. Citizens United was just the icing on the cake.

The proliferation of lobbyists, the total inability/unwillingness of DC to actually do anything to help the people, the endless (but quiet behind the scenes) selling out to Corprate Interests is somethi9ng everyone knows ort senses. It is why so many have just given up on the system and become cynical.

Clinton is one of the DLC crowd that helped to rig it by making the Democratic Party so dependent on big money donors.

Like it or not, Sanders is walking the talk by going for larger numbers of smaller donations. He's not just babbling in the wind about it. he's doing it...If the Democratic Party would actually emulate that, we could do a lot to clean up politics, rather than waiting for new laws and repeal of CU.

[Hortensis]

50. Yes I agree the political system is rigged in many ways.

But this is not a black-and-white world and politics aren't black and white either. There are a lot of good people in government trying to do good. There are a lot of good things about our system that are still working well. There are a lot of good things that once worked well but now need fixing. We have a very good base to build on and continue to develop toward what most of us really want.

I am completely out of patience with the kind of thinking that insists it is all too corrupt to repair and that trashing and replacement is the only answer. All its faults arise from the fact that we the people are people. Anything that replaced what we have would be created and run by people, and therefore prone to all the same old problems. This would be especially problematic if the new leaders were absolutist ideologues with extreme intolerance of those who are not with them and a total callous indifference to their rights and beliefs.

Those people could never create a better nation.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

51. " ignorant and sad" your words

of course it is billions - do you know what K street is - who the kocks are - more than a billion each year to rw think tanks


stupid people do not understand that it is billions

and only dumber one that think those billions have no effect

[Hortensis]

52. I strongly suspect a lot more than most BSers about it.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's basically based on the giant brush they typically use in discussion, detail sadly lacking.

The people setting the tone and direction for the Bernie faction don't seem to have any real idea who the enemies committed to turning this country over to the wealthy are, and amazingly they don't seem to care. They're perfectly happy to invest all their energy in trashing the Democrats/liberals directly to their right constantly and, in my opinion as one of those, despicably. The last thing that they have expressed an interest in is joining forces so that together we can defeat our common enemies and work together on the solutions we all supposedly want.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

53. lol - you are one of the funny ones

"The people setting the tone and direction for the Bernie faction"

some are so clueless -THE PEOPLE ARE - lol

[Hortensis]

54. I meant the nest here. Only a minority of his

supporters across America are anti-Democrats, and some of those may mature out of it.

But this is what I mean. You seem to have no idea that anti-Democrat, illiberal, far left, extremist, radical, whatever you want to call the subgroup I am talking about, is far too small to do anything on their own. And they won't cooperate. It's their way or no way.

The rest of "the people," to put it mildly, have a problem with the far left's contemptuous dismissal of their principles, especially those on the strong right, the moderate right, the con-lib center, the moderate liberal, and the strong liberal left like me. The people they most often ally with temporarily, when they do at all, are the far right, which should be of great concern.

[geek tragedy]

2. i'd say it was guns. That was serious ownage and blunted

any progress he hoped to make in BK and Q.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

3. Of course she's been compromised by millions and millions of dollars from corrupt financial

institutions.

Only the uninformed and the untruthful believe otherwise. It would take a special kind of idiot to think she could collect millions of dollars from the people who fucked us all in 2008 and not be compromised. It doesn't take a debate to know this. It takes about 3 brain cells bumping against one another occasionally.

[geek tragedy]

5. Instant classic in its genre. Will there be a dramatic reading?

P.S. Are you insulting the intelligence of Bernie Sanders, given his whiff on that question?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

6. What the fuck do you think, Dr Einstein?

[geek tragedy]

7. Feeling confident about Tuesday night? nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

11. No. I'm pretty sure Clinton will win New York. But I'll still have my principles, if that's what

you're wondering about. I'm not a tribal troglodyte at a sporting event. I'm a concerned voter.

[geek tragedy]

14. You're obviously non-tribal in this primary.

A model of open-mindedness and fairness.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

15. One more explanation for you, and we're done for the night.

I am partisan. I make no apologies for being partisan. But I'm not a mindless fuck who just wants to be on the side that wins. There are plenty of mindless fucks like that; I'm not one. But I do very firmly believe in going for the kill shot every time possible when running against a corrupt professional liar. Now you know the difference. I may speak with you later, but not tonight.

[Scuba]

46. +1

[Dustlawyer]

9. Enter Chris Mathews!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

12. Perfect. Just right.

[Luminous Animal]

4. As if we are all stupid.

[R B Garr]

8. Exactly. Just more proof Sanders is all about applause lines. When asked for

substance, he has none. He just defaults right back to his applause lines.

This was a very damning exchange, as was his NYDN interview. He can't even answer basic questions about his own character assassinations and/or basic questions about his own campaign platform.

[geek tragedy]

10. Lay off Bernie. He didn't have his paper in front of him nt

[R B Garr]

20. lol, I missed the very first part of the debate while in the car, but watching now, so

I see what you mean! Now I get to see all his confused and bizarre facial expressions, too. He really doesn't like people other than him getting applause. He gets noticeably agitated!

[kaleckim]

16. What nonsense

Bankruptcy bill, opposes reinstalling Glass-Steagall, opposes breaking the banks up now and a financial transactions tax, supported the bailing out of Wall Street, supported her husband gutting the New Deal financial regulations, supports the WTO (which makes actual financial regulation very difficult), supported the Panama (and South Korean, the TPP and Colombian) free trade deal, etc. Think her, her husband and her foundation getting tens of millions from these groups has nothing to do with that record? Think them getting three billion from these interests in the last 40 years, rising up with Walmart/Walton money had nothing to do with that or their support of the NAFTA style trade model? They are responsible more than most anyone else for pulling your party to the right in decades past.

How in the world has he not answered basic questions on his own campaign platform? Who falls for this third rate propaganda? How stupid would we all have to be to not know this for he obvious propaganda it is, clunky propaganda too. He has had a major impact on setting the terms of debate this election. This, and his rise, would not have happened if what he was saying wasn't substantive.

[R B Garr]

18. Aww, his own wife said he was "ambushed" by the NYDN. That's what is nonsense.

Mrs. Sanders also said the interview was an "inquisition." All he does is malign people and he can't even answer basic questions about what his own attacks mean.

[kaleckim]

25. Yeah

So you missed tonight's debate then? He couldn't answer basic questions about his own attacks? He can't explain his critiques of her war vote, her hawkish foreign policy, her support for the TPP (until recently), he didn't corner her tonight on SS and the cap, and the long list of bills she supported that benefited financial capital, the rich and corporate interests (stuff which he has kind of a mentioned a lot since entering the race), you think that isn't him answering basic questions? Again, who do you think you are fooling with these silly talking points? You saying he can't doesn't mean he can't, it just means you are saying he can't.

Good night.

[R B Garr]

35. You make no sense. Read the OP. Then watch

the debate. Your rambling is all his APPLAUSE lines taken from his so-called platform. We've heard them all. Over and over. And over. He can't provide examples to back up his bullshit. Read the OP.

[bigtree]

24. Sanders never claimed ANY of those

...because there's little more than a speculative case to be made, mostly based on innuendo and outright bullshittery.

'Thinking' it doesn't make it so. Sanders doesn't get a pass on failing to provide even ONE example where corporate-based donations or speaking fees had influenced her actions. You don't get to ride your imagination to the White House.

[kaleckim]

30. The entirety of his opposition

to her this campaign season has been based on her record of voting for policies that benefit banks, the rich and multi-national corporations. What the hell do you think he is saying when he critiques her record on trade (the TPP, the South Korean, Panamanian and Colombian trade deals, as well as NAFTA), on financial deregulation, on bailing out financial capital in 2008 (over a year's worth of GDP given to financial capital since the crash), and the rest? Just cause you aren't pulling this together logically doesn't mean he and others aren't.

Was he or the Clinton's right on this? Again, how do you miss that he is connecting the corporate support for the Clintons for bills like this? This is Sanders from 1993.

[bigtree]

33. his 'opposition' is as sketchy as his revolution

...some she voted for, some she did not.

There's only so much extrapolation you can get from Hillary's involvement on many of those initiatives, as opposed to Sanders' who was a legislator throughout all of those legislative battles.

In fact, Sanders voted to deregulate the financial market in 2000, taking the cops off the street and making the SEC and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission no longer able to regulate swaps and derivatives, which was one of the main causes of the collapse in '08.

[Hortensis]

41. Kaleckim, Bernie Sanders "logic" is that he

wants a far more socialized world in which capitalism is in eclipse or eliminated altogether, and everything that doesn't belong in the world he pictures is by definition bad, without redeeming function. THAT is what's behind his "logic" picture.

Bernie very characteristically believes that only people who feel as he does are capable of understanding what is "wrong" with society and how to fix it. And by definition, anyone who can see any good in those things is part of the problem that wiser, uncorrupted people like him must fix. Hillary at this time is the single greatest barrier to his rescue of society from that long list of evils. This is his frame for viewing the world, and we are learning that his conviction is so strong the he does not need evidence to know he is right.

In the beginning I didn't realize how limited his reasoning might be, but over time clue after clue has emerged -- not at all least the most recent when we learned that in all these years in Congress and over this entire election period he had never worked out the details of how he was going to accomplish what he is promising. His focus has been almost entirely on criticizing the obstructions to the better world he visualizes.

Tonight provided another moment of insight when the nation learned that he has absolutely no evidence to justify his accusations of corruption against Hillary Clinton. Ipso facto reasoning that Hillary doesn't share his beliefs so she has to be corrupt really doesn't cut it for most of us.

[Recursion]

28. To your important question

Who falls for this third rate propaganda?

"Independents", a.k.a. low information voters. They're terrifyingly important in the General.

[kaleckim]

31. Low information voters?

Can you prove that Democrats are more knowledgeable? My god, most of you don't even know what Clinton's record was. Most don't know tons about NAFTA, less know about the WTO, fewer know that he wanted to privatize Social Security.

Explain why you call them low information voters. What are you basing that on?

[Recursion]

32. Yes, people who think Glass-Steagall "kept banks from making risky investments", for instance

Or who think Glass-Steagall impacted Goldman Sachs at all (I mean, I guess it kept them from offering retail accounts, but they've never shown any interest in doing that in the decades since it was repealed).

Most don't know tons about NAFTA

Indeed, the ignorance about NAFTA can be pretty widespread. If you ask most people, they'd say we manufacture less today than we did in 1993, and that median wages are lower, and that unemployment is higher. All three of those are false. That said, Democrats on the whole support NAFTA and the TPP (about 58%/42%), while independents very strongly oppose them (about 40%/60%).

[Eric J in MN]

38. re 'opposes breaking the banks up' - That was his answer. NT

NT

[uponit7771]

42. +1

[Lucinda]

13. That's because it was always just talking points for the people who don't do their homeowrk.

[Recursion]

17. Yeah, but that's the electorate

Which is why I have to hold my nose and vote for him in the primary.

[Lucinda]

19. In the primary?

Why would you not be voting your choice? Were you a MOM voter?

[Recursion]

21. I was an MOM supporter when he was still in

As it is, I can't ignore the head-to-head polls in which he's stronger, largely (I think) because the electorate is incredibly stupid this year and he's very good at telling people what they want to hear.

[Lucinda]

22. If you mean the GE polls, you know they mean nothing this far out, especially without vetting?

Honestly, if I were in your position and didnt like either, I'd vote for MOM.

[Recursion]

23. I disagree that they mean nothing

He'll certainly come down from where he is in the head to heads, but I think Clinton will too.

[Lucinda]

27. I don't think Clintons numbers will lower. She is vetted up to her eyeballs and many Reps have said

they will shift to her if they get stuck with a Trump nominee. Guess we will know soon enough how it all plays out though. I can't believe it's mid-April already.

[WhenTheLeveeBreaks]

26. I didn't watch the debate (NHL playoffs), but

This thread seems to indicate Bernie blew it again.

I just don't understand what he's thinking.

Dear Bernie,
When it comes to money, influence, corruption and Hillary, the answer always starts with the Clinton Foundation. Buy, read and study the book. Beads of sweat would appear on her forehead, and no sensible response would be forthcoming. You could cite examples and talk for the rest of the debate. The buzzer would have to stop you and the moderators would be forced to follow-up with questions to Hillary.

I don't understand why you (and your supporters) reach for the six-shooter when you have a bazooka laying in the corner.

You can disqualify Hillary. That's how you sway super delegates. You will not sway them complaining about transcripts, whining about donors and winning primaries.

Come on Bernie.

[bigtree]

29. he knows what Hillary knows

...his ammo is mostly blanks and smoke grenades.

Better to keep his 'six shooter' holstered, lest the public catches onto how impudent his arsenal really is.

[WhenTheLeveeBreaks]

36. I'm really beginning to think

that Bernie is perfectly happy being the founder of a movement and doesn't really care about being the nominee. And that makes me sad.

[uponit7771]

43. +1, I'm thinking he's there to keep things interesting

[bigtree]

47. folks who believe he just needs to get more insulting and double down on the innuendo

...are ignoring the negative and counterproductive effect the strategy has had on his campaign which used to be about big ideas.

These days, Bernie has reduced his dialogue to zingers against Hillary which are raw meat for the press. He's mistaken his obliging celebrity for a significant political movement and his invectives have become his rallying cry to keep the tabloid machine fed. It's a cynical campaign which is draining his support among reasonable people faster than he can attract like-minded demagogues to his defense.

It's all good with his following, because revolution.

[Eric J in MN]

37. Sanders said that her money from Wall St is why

...Clinton didn't support breaking up the biggest banks at the start of the Great Recession.

It was a fine answer to the question.

[bigtree]

40. funny

...making a mockery of that tragedy.

Not surprising that, in NY, where Hillary was Senator at the time of the 9-11 attacks, that she should recall her solidarity with the residents there and her active support to help rebuild the city and support the ailing rescue workers.

[Sky Masterson]

44. The three minutes of fail

was when candidate flip-a-coin decided that the Palestinians were a disposable people.
She danced like Patrick Swayze and drummed on splicing barely coherent words together in an almost Palinesq manner.
All these years and she can't handle an old Jewish guy

[w4rma]

45. Do Clintonites really believe their own propaganda?

You people act like illogical pack animals.

Nobody outside of your reality bubble cares about your little "gotchas" that aren't really gotchas.

[Jefferson23]

48. lol

Yea, nothing to see here..why bother with overturning CU?
Only the Republicans are compromised? LOL

OMFG this is too funny, although pathetically sad at the same time.