Negotiation: Clinton vs Sanders

[MrsKirkley]

Is the best strategy for negotiation with Congress to begin on the far left and negotiate toward the middle or to start in the middle and negotiate to the right from there?

Bernie Sanders would begin his negotiations with Congress on the far left with single-payer health care and a $15/hr minimum wage. Hillary Clinton would begin her negotiations with Congress in the middle with improving the ACA and a $12 minimum wage because the far left is unrealistic. Who do you think has more of a chance, after negotiations are over, of ending up with a $12 minimum wage and a public option addition to the ACA and why? Do you plan to base your vote on the presidential candidate with the best strategy for negotiation?

[NurseJackie]

1. Sanders can't negotiate. We've already seen that. It's "all or nothing" for him.

Besides, without enough Democrats in Congress ... the "negotiations" you speak of will be over before it even starts.

What's Bernie doing to help the party with down-ticket races to make Democratic candidates more competitive. (Aside from the quid-pro-quo arrangements with a small trio of candidates who are willing to engage in some mutual back scratching with Bernie... what's he doing to help the party?)

Do you plan to base your vote on the presidential candidate with the best strategy for negotiation?

Actually, I prefer the candidate who has the best strategy for progress and finding common ground. What you think is Bernie's "strategy" doesn't exist. That may be how you'd handle things. That may be how you wish he'd handle things. But it won't happen. One, because that's not how Bernie operates, and two, because he won't be the nominee.

[lagomorph777]

3. Obviously the key is to fire a lot of GOP from Congress

and coattails are needed for that. Bernie has the coattails (enthusiastic voter base); Hillary (in the GE) does not.

As for negotiating positions, it's pretty obvious that you have to start as far left from the center, as the right is to the right of center. That's negotiation 101. And you can't cave immediately because you actually sympathize with the right's views.

[NurseJackie]

5. Coattails? AYFKM? We've seen how the typical Bernie voter doesn't bother to vote down-ticket.

These "coattails" you mention are completely imaginary. And it's why down-ticket Dems and elected judges aren't as competitive as they'd otherwise be.

[lagomorph777]

7. Voters who don't show up because there's no point, will not vote down-ticket

and many feel that choosing between right wing and extreme far-right wing candidates is pointless.

Me, if it comes to it, I'll trudge in and do my duty, but hardly with enthusiasm.

[NurseJackie]

8. Bernie fans who DO show up don't even bother to vote down-ticket. Many missed opportunities so far…

... and that's a shame. They had a chance to make a difference, and they totally BLEW IT. There are NO "perfect" candidates, but there are candidates who are more closely aligned to our personal beliefs and philosophies... there ARE candidates who are better than their opponents.

It's our obligation to choose the BETTER of the candidates who are running. This nonsense about "refusing to vote for the lesser of two evils" is total bullshit, and it's the sign of an immature voter, or a selfish voter who thinks that indulging their own vanities is more important than all other considerations.

and many feel that choosing between right wing and extreme far-right wing candidates is pointless.

Well, those people are fools.

Me, if it comes to it, I'll trudge in and do my duty, but hardly with enthusiasm.

I've been there.

[lagomorph777]

10. Where do you get this stuff?

Can you back your claim that Bernie voters don't read the whole ballot?

[NurseJackie]

16. Exit polling data and analysis reveals what's going on.

Can you back your claim that Bernie voters don't read the whole ballot?
By their own admission, over 11% of Bernie voters don't bother to vote in down-ticket elections. Compared to about 4% of Hillary voters. (Yes, I do understand that exit polling is, well, merely exit polling ... but considering the large difference between these two percentages, it does provide some interesting insight ... and it raises a lot of questions and concerns.)

www.salon.com/2016/04/07/how_one_down_ticket_election_in_wisconsin_shows_the_flaw_in_his_political_movement/

Exit poll breakdowns from Tuesday show that just under 10 percent of Sanders voters cast a ballot for Bradley, while 11.5 percent did not vote in the judicial election at all.

I do think this is one more piece of evidence that Sanders’s theory of political revolution as a model for this election is falling short. The model rests on millions of disaffected and previously un-engaged voters being so energized that they will turn out to vote for change in the form of one Bernie Sanders.

...there is another point that has always been the flaw in the Sanders model: It does liberals no good to turn out all these voters for a presidential election if they are not going to educate themselves about who else on the ballot they need to vote for.

In other words, if you’re not paying attention to anything beyond the top of the ticket, you’re doing revolution wrong. Change in our political system takes place only with sustained civic engagement. Such engagement would indeed be revolutionary, but I see no evidence as yet that Sanders’s rhetoric will achieve it.

[lagomorph777]

18. I remember seeing Bernie specifically mention the WI SC race in a speech

Sadly, it does seem that only 78.5% of his voters listened to that part of the speech, vs Hillary's 92%.

We do need to do better.

[Armstead]

11. Not that it matters to you , but...

he proved his skills at pragmatism and coalition building and negotiating as mayor. He was known for getting things done, and was named one of America's best mayors.

Same skill set.

[Betty Karlson]

21. All or nothing? So that's how he got those extra debates? Great negotiator. Go Bernie!

[geek tragedy]

2. how many of his bills have gotten passed? nt

[WhiteTara]

4. He only adds amendments.

[Armstead]

12. Don't just blame him. Blame his democratic colleges who don't stand up

Many of the legislation he introduced over the years was totally reflective of what Democrats claim to stand for at election time -- but back away from when they actually have to go to work and govern. Then the mandates of corporate lobbyists take precedence....or fear of the GOP.

[geek tragedy]

13. leadership takes more than just staking out the right position and camping there

Ted Kennedy recognized that.

[Armstead]

14. Kennedy often faced uphill battles too....

he fought for the same basic Medicare for everyone plan Bernie is fighting for over the decades. Alas he never saw it come to fruition.

Yes he understood the advantages of compromise and incrementalism. So does Bernie who voted for the ACA.

And yes the GOP...etc.

But the point is that people like Kennedy and Bernie should not also have to work so hard just to try and push recalcitrant Democrats in the right (correct) direction on so many issues.

[geek tragedy]

15. Democrats have to stay in office to vote for good legislation

Not every Senate seat is from Massachusetts or Vermont, unfortunately.

I would love to see someone primary Tom Carper though.

[Armstead]

17. I think Democrats don't....

1) give people enough credit that they will support things that are good for them and their neighbors

2)Work to actually sell liberal/progressive ideas and values to the public. The GOP is much better at selling their agenda. (until recently, maybe)

3)Too many of them seem to have their eye on that cushy corporate lobbying or consulting or "speechmaking" gig after they have done their time in office

[geek tragedy]

19. generally, politicians know their districts better than anyone

Republicans have a much easier sales pitch to make: government sucks, and the bigger it gets the more it sucks

We have to persuade people as to the merits of each and every thing the government does.

[msanthrope]

6. Ah...the bargaining stage. nt

[k8conant]

9. I recently told my daughter that in negotiation you never negotiate down before you start...

so Bernie Sanders.

[djean111]

20. Bernie. Hillary does not really want to increase minimum wage or mess with insurance profits, in

the first place. And the GOP Congress hates her, except I think they would happily go along with Third Way slashing and war and fracking, just to show they are "bipartisan". There are enough DINOs now to give the GOP cover for any Congress people who are up for election soon, and don't want to be accused of working with Hillary.