Gun Crime imports from Vermont to NY--graphs

[riversedge]

Everytown Verified account
‏@Everytown

Vermont's a small state, but it is disproportionately represented as a source of guns that end up in NY. #DemDebate

[Scuba]

1. Source?

[Sancho]

6. Here you go...

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/feed/3-charts-show-how-illegal-gun-gets-hands-criminal/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=fb&utm_campaign=20160413feed_gun_laws

[riversedge]

10. Thanks.

[Lizzie Poppet]

19. Again: per-capita rates are useless and misleading for this type of statistic.

Employment of per-capita rates in this matter gives a misleading impression that guns from VT are actually creating a significant problem in NY. Since the actual number is a little over 50 (out of over 7500) firearms per year, that impression is obviously false.

This is transparent, unsubtle ratfuckery.

[George II]

47. Why are per-capita rates useless and misleading?

It clearly shows that a higher rate of guns are coming from Vermont. Its unsubtle, but certainly not "ratfuckery".

[Lizzie Poppet]

48. Already stated. (nt)

[TheBlackAdder]

49. Another Fucking Stupid OP that is deceptive! I knew it was bullshit when I saw the writer!

.


There are 5 SBS and 12 HRC people who constantly flood the boards with raw sewage.


.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Lol! The per capita is as useless as the cows to humans ratio. 3 PINOCCHIOS!

THREE PINOCCHIOS from WaPo!

[Sancho]

35. How many guns did it take to kill all those children at Sandy Hook???

The point is not the number of guns - the point is that Bernie is WRONG to support guns being purchased and transported for use in criminal activities!! Bernie votes against WAITING PERIODS. Bernie votes against restricting gun TRANSFERS. Bernie does not support the Brady Bill. Bernie does not support a license to possess or use a gun. Those gun stores (his example!) that sell guns used in crimes should be LIABLE, not the ONLY industry in the US exempt from lawsuits. Bernie is the NRA's poster child. NY keeps records on guns used in crimes. Who knows how many Vermont guns are going out all over the world of crime? Vermont is wrong, Bernie is wrong, and Bernie does not have the values to be President.

Voted YES on allowing firearms in checked baggage on Amtrak trains.
Congressional Summary:AMENDMENT PURPOSE: To ensure that law abiding Amtrak passengers are allowed to securely transport firearms in their checked baggage.
On page 37, between lines 8 and 9, insert the following: "Allowing Amtrak Passengers to Securely Transport Firearms on Passenger Trains.--None of amounts made available in the reserve fund authorized under this section may be used to provide financial assistance for the National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) unless Amtrak passengers are allowed to securely transport firearms in their checked baggage.
Proponent's argument to vote Yes:Sen. ROGER WICKER (R, MS). This amendment aims to ensure that gun owners and sportsmen are able to transport securely firearms aboard Amtrak trains in checked baggage, a practice that is done thousands of times a day at airports across the country. I emphasize that this amendment deals with checked, secured baggage only. It would return Amtrak to a pre-9/11 practice. It does not deal with carry-on baggage. Unlike the airline industry, Amtrak does not allow the transport of firearms in checked bags. This means that sportsmen who wish to use Amtrak trains for hunting trips cannot do so because they are not allowed to check safely a firearm.
Opponent's argument to vote No:Sen. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D, NJ): I object to this disruptive amendment offered by the Senator from Mississippi. He wants to enable the carrying of weapons, guns, in checked baggage. One doesn't have to be very much concerned about what we are doing when they look at the history of attacks on railroads in Spain and the UK and such places. This amendment has no place here interrupting the budgetary procedure. The pending amendment is not germane and, therefore, I raise a point of order that the amendment violates section 305(b)(2) of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974.

Reference: Wicker Amendment; Bill S.Amdt.798 to S.Con.Res.13 ; vote number 2009-S145 on Apr 2, 2009

[beam me up scottie]

36. MOVE the goalposts! Make up even MORE outlandish claims!

Bernie WANTS criminals to have guns! It's so OBVIOUS!

Throw in some Hillary supporter talking points and a gish gallop about allowing guns in checked baggage on trains!

FEEL THE POUTRAGE!!!

[Sancho]

39. Just about the entire world thinks Bernie is wrong on guns...this is just one example.

Here's some outrage for you:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/10/13/bernie_sanders_on_guns_at_the_debate.html
Bernie Sanders’ Defense of His Pro-Gun, Pro-NRA Votes Was Absolutely Terrible 

A socialist like Scandinavia on everything EXCEPT guns:
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-07-31/no-really-what-s-the-difference-between-a-democrat-and-a-socialist-

What it means is that one takes a hard look at countries around the world who have successful records in fighting and implementing programs for the middle class and working families. When you do that, you automatically go to countries like Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and other countries that have had labor governments or social democratic governments, and what you find is that in virtually all of those countries, health care is a right of all people and their systems are far more cost-effective than ours, college education is virtually free in all of those countries, people retire with better benefits, wages that people receive are often higher, distribution of wealth and income is much fairer, their public education systems are generally stronger than ours.


http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/watch-bernie-sanders-clash-with-a-gun-control-activist-who-thinks-he-sounds-like-the-nra/


http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/07/10/bernies-big-break-with-the-left-on-guns
Bernie's Big Break With the Left on Guns
Gun control is one issue where the Vermont senator is out of step with the progressive movement.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html
Bernie Sanders, Gun Nut
He supported the most reprehensible pro-gun legislation in recent memory.


http://reverbpress.com/news/phillips-lucky-gunner-aurora-shooting/
Grieving Parents Forced To Pay Legal Fees To Gun Companies That Sold Arms To Aurora Shooter

http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/01/bernie-sanders-second-amendment-socialist/
Bernie Sanders, Second Amendment Socialist?
Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, the independent who has announced he will run to the left of Hillary Clinton in the 2016 Democratic presidential primaries, was first elected to Congress with the help of the National Rifle Association.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/19/why-isnt-the-media-discussing-the-unprecedented/191910
Why Isn't The Media Discussing The Unprecedented Law Giving Gun Makers And Dealers Immunity?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2015/07/10/bernie-sanders-misleading-characterization-of-a-controversial-gun-law/
Bernie Sanders’s misleading characterization of a controversial gun law

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/24/why-is-congress-protecting-the-gun-industry/
Why Is Congress Protecting the Gun Industry?
Gun manufacturers and dealers enjoy broad legal immunity, even though lawsuits against them would help improve safety

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/01/1183784/-2005-Law-Gives-Gun-Manufacturers-and-Dealers-Protection-From-Lawsuits-Not-Given-to-Other-Industries#
2005 Law Gives Gun Manufacturers and Dealers Protection From Lawsuits Not Given to Other Industries

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/21/politics/congress-passes-new-legal-shield-for-gun-industry.html?_r=0

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252007-conn-governor-hits-sanders-on-gun-control

Conn. governor hits Sanders on guns

[beam me up scottie]

41. BERMIES A GUN NUT! THIS GISH GALLOP PROOFS IT!!1!

[boston bean]

50. You win the argument, when the graphics are rolled out! Good JOB!

[revbones]

51. +10pts for using gish gallop. nt

[beam me up scottie]

52. It's an old tactic, the scientificky graph is new though.

[djg21]

32. Per capita?

This is a bullshit statistic. The population of Vermont is under 650,000. The population of New York, by contrast, is close to 20 Million. Given the very small population of Vermont, any per capita comparison with other states is meaningless. Maybe a more meaningful number would be the number of gun-related crimes in NY in which guns purchased in VT were used, over the total number of gun-related crimes committed with all guns purchased out of state?

On edit: from the WaPo article cited down thread: "But 1 percent of crime guns whose sources were identified in 2014 originated from Vermont: 55 of 4,585."

[Sancho]

33. No..it's makes the point that you don't seem to get....

Lax laws allow illegal gun sales - and that includes things that Bernie supports: no waiting period, transfers across state lines, and no license for gun possession.

I realize that Vermonters don't care if only a "few" people are killed by their lack of gun control - but if there were strong federal laws like Hillary has long supported, and that Bernie consistently votes against, then Vermont would not export guns to criminals; and neither would a bunch of other states.

Bernie is the problem.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Yes, BLAME Vermonters too! They don't care if people DIE and neither does Bernie!

[Sancho]

61. An article for today...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/lupica-sanders-phony-gun-stance-blocks-justice-victims-article-1.2603816?utm_content=bufferfdbae&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

LUPICA: Bernie Sanders stands with the big gun manufacturers as he defends their immunity from lawsuits

[djg21]

57. Have you ever set foot in Vermont?

This is utter nonsense.

Go Catamounts!

[sheshe2]

64. Yes I have, it's a pretty state especially at peak foliage.

Your point?

[riversedge]

7. Printed on the graph

[Buzz Clik]

8. ..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/

[Lizzie Poppet]

2. Per capita? LOL

You get why that's completely useless (except for ratfucking purposes), right?

[riversedge]

13. Understanding words and concepts is hard for some people

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Thus the OP.

Thanks for the confirmation...

[beam me up scottie]

23. Apparently it is, that explains the confused op.

[djg21]

56. More Holsteins than humans.

I'm not a Bernie supporter, but this criticism is shameful. BTW, Bernie is a US Senator and before that was the mayor of Burlington. He has never been Governor or a member of the VT legislature. If you have issues with VT's gun laws, at least take it up with the right elected officials.

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

3. Just plain...

Bullshit

[Buzz Clik]

9. Nope. Fact.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/

[Sancho]

4. It doesn't take long for criminals to take advantage of weak state laws...

which is why Hillary has been calling for strong federal gun control for decades.

Bernie has voted against waiting periods, restrictions on transporting guns, and for protecting gun manufacturers.

Bernie has been wrong on this issue for many years, and the NRA loves the way Bernie votes.

[Buzz Clik]

5. Here's one source:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/

[mainer]

11. And the Washington Post gives you 3 Pinocchios

The number of crime guns in New York from Vermont is so small that it could even be attributed to one or two bad actors. Using the per capita measure of trafficked guns originating from Vermont is as pointless as counting guns trafficked per 100,000 head of cattle.

We wavered between Two and Three Pinocchios. Clinton has carefully crafted her talking point to find the particular government data that support her point, which gives a wildly different view than how trafficking flows are tracked. We do not find the per capita measure as a fair assessment of gun flows from Vermont into New York. The difference between this point using per capita calculation and the raw number (1 percent of crime guns with source states identified in 2014 came from Vermont) is so stark that it creates a significantly misleading impression to the public. Those factors tip to Three Pinocchios.

Three Pinocchios

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/

[vintx]

16. Her followers are as shameless as she us

Straight up bullshit but they just keep serving it up.

As if everyone is STUPID enough to buy this kind of crap.

[beedle]

27. Yes, if this stat tells us anything

It's that guns imported by criminals from Vermont are the safest, last used in criminal activity.

The numbers are clear, highest per capita number, least per capita crimes ... If Hillary's claims are to be taken seriously at all, then she's making the argument that New York would be a much safer place if all guns used by criminals came from Vermont.

[jack_krass]

12. In real numbers, this works out to like 50 guns

Nice attempt at bottom feeding ratfuckery. Keep trying -I think youve got a knack for this!!

[riversedge]

15. Sanders has a poor gun-control voting record--GRAPH

Sanders has a poor gun-control voting record--GRAPH

[jack_krass]

17. Spin and propaganda. He has a D- rating with the NRA.-Enough said

[beam me up scottie]

22. The meme generator has been put into overdrive, too bad it's a joke.

[riversedge]

25. I find it beter to KNOW how Sanders actually votes.--hence the GRAPH

[beam me up scottie]

30. Ooooo, a GRAPH! How officialish!

[riversedge]

20. NY won't forget--Sanders voted against Firefighter's extension of 9/11 health bill

NY won't forget--Sanders voted against Firefighter's extension of 9/11 health bill


TWEET
I Am #ABWisdom ‏@adbridgeforth 12m12 minutes ago

DID YOU KNOW? #NYWontForget

#FeelTheFraud #DontGetBerned #gunsense

[angrychair]

44. More ratfuckery

Sanders did not - DID NOT - vote against the Extension of the James Zadroga Act.
Fact:
1) the Extension of the James Zadroga Act is now law.

2) the Act was rolled up into the 2015 Omnibus Spending bill that was passed in December of 2015

3) his vote was a protest vote on the significant short-comings of the 2015 Omnibus Spending bill as well as its concessions to big oil.
http://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/senator-sanders-says-no-omnibus-spending-bill/

4) Sanders has supported and co-sponsored the senate version of the Act, s928, since the beginning.
http://www.renew911health.org/presidential-candidates/bernie-sanders/



Lastly, as a member of the wildland firefighting community, I take serious exception to this nasty ratfuckery and trying to squeeze political gain from the death and illness of New York's first responders.
Classless, serious bullshit and you should be ashamed.

[Duckhunter935]

53. Ouch that had to hurt

Facts can sting, lol

[northernsouthern]

59. They hid my repose about how they are using the dead last time.

I said that she was digging them up for the debate. I found it upsetting the only time she talks about them is when it gets her something. That is not concern that is exploitation. I love the shit John Stewart did on shaming them to pass the bill.

[workinclasszero]

40. Sickening record

Bernie and his supporters should be ashamed of it.

[beam me up scottie]

18. THREE PINOCCHIOS!!!

Hillary Clinton’s claim that the ‘highest per capita number’ of crime guns in New York come from Vermont

The number of crime guns in New York from Vermont is so small that it could even be attributed to one or two bad actors. Using the per capita measure of trafficked guns originating from Vermont is as pointless as counting guns trafficked per 100,000 head of cattle.

THREE PINOCCHIOS



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/04/12/hillary-clintons-claim-that-the-highest-per-capita-number-of-crime-guns-in-new-york-come-from-vermont/

What's the ratio of cows to guns?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

28. How can you blame a poster in GD: P for such an OP?

In GD: P, most just follow the guideline, "If you can say something bad, don't say anything."

[beam me up scottie]

29. Right? #memesrus

[Logical]

21. Most normal posters would edit the post and add a link. But ok. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

26. Raw numbers without the per capital mendacity:

New York requested tracing of thousands more firearms in 2014 than ATF was able to successfully identify: A total of 7,686 firearms were recovered and traced, but the source state was identified in only 4,585. Guns are normally traced to the first retail sale, ATF says.

ATF’s numbers show the top 15 sources for those 4,585 guns, with 30.5 percent of them (1,397) coming from New York. The out-of-state sources were, in order: Virginia (395 guns), Georgia (386), Pennsylvania (371), Florida (292), North Carolina (279), South Carolina (256), Ohio (152), Texas (103), Alabama (91), West Virginia (66), Connecticut (59), Tennessee (57), Vermont (55) and California (49).
http://www.factcheck.org/2016/04/clintons-vermont-gun-stat/


I know Clinton Camp loves the NY Daily News, which endorsed her. Here is their piece about which States send guns to NY:

Bloomberg released a list of the top 10 out-of-state sources for firearms used in city crimes.

Virginia placed first and was followed by North Carolina, South Carolina, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Florida, Ohio, Alabama, Texas and West Virginia.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/out-of-state-guns-ny-gun-crimes-article-1.1414139

[CompanyFirstSergeant]

31. The concept of 'per capita'

Makes this entire argument into nonsense.

What does 'per capita' mean.... per person, or per 100,000 people, etc.

Vermont is a small state. Per capita statistics are going to be skewed into the realm of non-reality.

Might as well say 'per square mile' or...

OK, I have one.....

At 55 guns, Vermont has the LOWEST illegal gun rate 'per days of cold weather.'

TRUE, REALLY REALLY TRUE!!!!!

[winter is coming]

34. And how many of those are handguns confiscated at the Albany airport by the TSA?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1660423

[workinclasszero]

38. Thanks Bernie!

[Skwmom]

43. A meaningless graph meant to distort the truth.

[George II]

45. So Hillary Clinton was correct on Thursday night.

[Thinkingabout]

46. Oh, no, the truth rises.

[Politicalboi]

54. Spare us

Hillary and Bill are selling arms and laundering money through the Clinton Foundation. You guys should be more concerned about that than this shit. You're just like children.

[vintx]

63. That would require integrity

so I won't be holding my breath.

They'll keep posting lies right up until the convention gavel comes down

[jmg257]

55. Yeah ALL those illegal (55) guns coming in from VT will show up with Hillary's Transcripts...

ANY day now.

But thousands every year come right from NY - despite the "tough" laws, should we blame clinton for those?

[northernsouthern]

58. Hey you are posting the wrong graph! That one has been updated!

[jmg257]

60. Lol! Love it! nt

[Sancho]

62. Childish sarcasm on a serious topic? That's one reason Bernie is losing this primary.

He is on the wrong side of gun control. Bernie's followers turn off as many voters as any RW commercial.

[sheshe2]

65. +1