I will NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton

[catnhatnh]

Earlier this month my brother posted something that sticks with me. Back in 1969 he was a 19 year old who had gone to college and when he clowned around they advised him to take a semester off and then re-apply. He did but was drafted instead and sent off to war. This is what he said 45 years later:

"45 years ago today a man came home from war. Just 20 months earlier a boy went off to fight. War teaches many things. The fragility of life, but at the same time, the cheapness of life. The most horrifying and yet the most gratifying moments. The bravest and the most cowardly times. The greatest friendships and the most extreme loss. Civilian life can never even come close. And to end it all on April fools day, says it all !!"

This guy is no pundit and most days it would take a lot to get more than a "Good morning" from him...

Today they announced we now have over 4000 troops back in Iraq. If we elect Bernie Sanders I believe we start to stop loving wars...

[Chan790]

1. I only vote for Democrats.

Hillary is no Democrat as far as I am concerned.

[athena]

7. Trump is a Democrat?

Not voting for the Democratic nominee is equivalent to voting for the Republican nominee.

[rhett o rick]

9. Apparently that's what you want. You had a choice and you choose to lose with Clinton.

Of course you will look to blame someone else, but it's you.

[athena]

15. So those who vote for the Democratic nominee are to blame for

the actions of those who refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee?

Your vote is yours and yours alone. If you choose to support the Republican nominee with it, you have no one but yourself to blame.

[TDale313]

55. If they chose a compromised, third way lesser-of-two evils nominee that will change nothing?

Yeah. They're part of the problem

[Arneoker]

158. So you're voting for the greater evil

Got it.

[pdsimdars]

139. Yes, they should have educated themselves and chosen the MOST ELECTABLE candidate

instead of the cult of personality.

[COLGATE4]

170. Well, I guess YOU're going to show them!

[Chan790]

16. That's very Clintonesque of them.

Hillary is never responsible for the consequences of her actions either.

[closeupready]

179. I learned here on DU that holding Hillary accountable is sexism.

She is not ever to blame for anything she has ever done, nor any mistakes she will make. Got it?

[m-lekktor]

202. and "whore" is never used as a metaphor it is always to be taken literally and is sexist.

and because only women have sex for money!

[Sheepshank]

60. The minority, the losing team should get to call the shots for the majority?

Nice interpretation of Democracy there, bud.

[Jack Bone]

128. We're an oligarchy now

Democracy caught the last train for the coast....

[Sheepshank]

174. I'm talking about majority of votes cast, majority of Delegates pledged

you are moving the goal post.

Are you stating that a minority of the voting population should be dictating another choice than that made by the majority of the voters?

[Cal33]

175. Don't tell me that you've never seen this: For the better part of a year now, whenever polls

compared Sanders and Clinton to Republican presidential candidates, Sanders has been
besting the Republican by double digit numbers over Clinton -- every single time.

This shows what would happen in the General Election. The majority of the American
people by far would vote for Sanders over Clinton as president. There's the majority
for you.

[Goblinmonger]

181. So everyone should have to vote for the majority of the party?

Because reasons?

[Sheepshank]

193. you simple need to re-read the subthread in its entirety rather than make up stuff

[Demsrule86]

150. Trump is evil

Those of you who sit out, vote for Stein or vote for Trump with the idea that after he is really bad why then the revolution will continue are wrong...four justices plus the one being held hostage right now...the GOP having all three branches of government...many of us literally won't survive a Trump presidency ...and if we did justices serve for life...no revolution.

[Arneoker]

161. Be careful

You might confuse some with that logic.

[Arneoker]

157. What other of your choices do you want others to take responsibility for?

Bottom line, if you don't vote for the best viable choice in November then your passion and sincerity counts for squat, and you are objectively useless to any kind decent cause.

[restorefreedom]

28. really?

my ballots always have several options

[MattSh]

90. A vote for someone is a vote for that person...

it is not a vote for somebody else. Never has been; never will be.

Strange how many times that has to be said...

But as Stalin once not so graciously pointed out, and quite apropos in the USA in 2016, it's not the people who vote who decide elections.

[athena]

95. If Hillary is the nominee and you don't vote for her,

then you're effectively voting for Trump, even if you don't cast a ballot.

[840high]

110. Old song - doesn't work on me anymore.

[KPN]

112. Effectively voting for Trump? How do you figure?

If someone doesn't vote for Hillary, it's because she does not appeal to them or their interests. Has nothing to do with Trump.

Hillary will either get enough Bernie supporters to help her prevail, assuming she gets the nomination first, or she won't ... based on what she offers voters in exchange for their vote between the nomination and November 8th.

It';s up to Hillary.

[Buddyblazon]

118. No it's not.

If I vote for Hillary, I've voted for Hillary. If I don't vote I've voted for no one.

Don't spin it to suit your ego.

[Silver_Witch]

127. There are many other candidates on the ballot

And I will vote for the one that represents me. Casting my vote is my vote and I get to pick who I cast it for. No matter how much you hate that.

[Duckhunter935]

146. So true

Funny thing they never realize is you need more than just democrats to actually elect a president. The numbers just are not there as democrats only make up around 30% of the voters.

[Silver_Witch]

199. Thank you Duckhunter395...

your post was the only nice one...much appreciated.

[Duckhunter935]

200. I try

Might not always succeed, lol

[Arneoker]

162. Good for you

Indulge yourself! That's what really matters, right?

[Silver_Witch]

198. Save the sarcasm...

I am older than dirt and don't need or want your judgement. Save it for the DNC.

[WhiteTara]

176. Then you/we can all say President Trump. Or worse

President Cruz. But do vote your "conscience". We saw how that worked out in 2000

[Silver_Witch]

197. You can certainly do anything you like...

...if Trump wins it is the DNC's fault not mine. The DNC picks the candidate not I.

My vote is MY vote and I shall cast it as I wish - your words are meaningless.

Thanks for sharing and have a very very nice day.

[Duckhunter935]

145. My state and vote for president

Does not count so my non-vote at the top will not matter. I will vote democratic down ballot though.

[840high]

109. Hillary is.

[Silver_Witch]

126. NO it is not and no matter how many times you say it it is still NOT TRUE

The DNC and Hillary are not for you or me. They are only for the 1% and the powerful.

We all laugh when Republicans vote against their best interest and yet you promote the same.

[TrueDemVA]

143. No more DINOs

I will not reward DINOs with my vote. That doesn't mean it is a vote for Trump. How stupid are these people to say this type of thing. Fear is not going to make me vote for her just b/c she claims to be a Dem. The Democratic Party is gone. Maybe it is time for a third party. A real party for the people.

I will write in Bernie's name if I have to, b/c he earned my vote.

[HooptieWagon]

164. No one has to vote for Trump.

There are other candidates besides the two big parties. Camp Weathervane has been quite clear that Sanders Liberals aren't wanted. Other candidates will be grateful for our support. Good luck with your scorched earth campaign.

[John Poet]

203. Voting for Hillary to be the Democratic nominee, is equivalent to

voting for a Republican to be the Democratic nominee.

[Flying Shoe]

204. We have to stop thinking like this

When this is how we approach elections, we end up settling for candidates that no longer represent what this party should be about. This is how the establishment gets its de-regulation, lack of campaign finance laws, and petty wars past the people who's interest these things directly conflict.

[AgerolanAmerican]

207. Relative to Clinton?

by traditional standards of what a Democrat is?

Trump complaining that people don't get to vote, Hillary supporters doing everything they can to justify people not being able to vote... the one that is actually supporting democracy - you know, as in "Democrat", that democracy - is clear cut.

The one that rigged the system to minimize the impact of voting is really not very democratic at all, one might even say anti-democratic.

[msongs]

2. yet again, bernie is one of the biggest militarists in congress. to think otherwise is delusional nt

[EndElectoral]

5. I must be delusional.

[catnhatnh]

6. Prove it

You have the big mouth. And F-35 programs prove little. Show me war votes.

[still_one]

36. Bernie Sanders Supports Keeping Troops In Afghanistan

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-afghanistan_us_5623b601e4b08589ef47bdaa

[puffy socks]

117. his votes for military action in Somalia , Yugoslavia and Kosovo.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

8. No. You don't get to make up new reality just because your candidate won.

Go ahead and poll that question--do it off DU. You'll find you're dead wrong by about 98%-2%.

[rhett o rick]

11. I guess the new tactic from the Clinton Cave is to just make shit up.

Clinton is responsible for maybe a million dead Iraqi's. She hasnt even said she was sorry. Not empathy. She said she made a mistake.

[MattSh]

96. Not exactly a new tactic, though...

[HooptieWagon]

165. A mistake she repeated.

Either she's a slow learner, or well-paid to promote war. Neither case is presidential material.

[Carolina]

12. He didn't vote for IWR

He was not for regime change in Honduras and Libya... You are confused and that's putting it euphemistically

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. We're back in Iraq. It is horrifying...

And Secretary Clinton likes wars.

*sigh*

[DrDan]

144. and Sanders likes war machinery and gun makers . . . *sigh*

[Duckhunter935]

148. Same as Hillary

[EndElectoral]

4. With Hillary's tendency toward hawkishness lots of military regime changes on the agenda.

[geek tragedy]

10. It's over. Clinton will be the nominee nt

[frustrated_lefty]

13. And she'll lose.

Let Rome burn.

[Carolina]

14. K&R

[TimeToEvolve]

85. yup

[geek tragedy]

17. That is frustration talking nt

[catnhatnh]

19. Horseshit

I ain't gonna study war no more-nor vote it

I would vote for a kumquat before Hillary. Maybe you don't get it. If I can vote against anything else I will never vote again for a warrior to young to even have ever voted.

[geek tragedy]

20. So you don't care about global warming or Supreme Court. Ok. nt

[frustrated_lefty]

22. Hillary will nominate right wingers

center right judges to the Supreme Court. How is this a good thing?

[Dem2]

30. You're just talking trash

Nobody believes that.

[SpareribSP]

114. Merrick Garland

Not weighing in on Roe v. Wade and not thinking the Citizen's United ruling was a mistake hasn't exactly inspired a lot of confidence.

[Dem2]

166. So Hillary chose that person?

You have to be extremely naive to not understand the politics behind this choice and why she is supporting Obama on it. I mean completely oblivious. You can't possibly think that this is indicative of what Hillary would choose.

[geek tragedy]

32. You have zero reason to believe that.

She's more liberal than Bill, and Bill appointed RBG.

[frustrated_lefty]

87. She's indebted to corporations.

RBG is a gift from the heavens. I love having her as a Justice.

Hillary is not Bill. Hillary is indebted to the very same corporations that brought you Citizen's United. Why do you think she would push to overturn Citizens United?

[geek tragedy]

93. Do you know the backstory to Citizens United? nt

[demosincebirth]

39. How can you make such a dumb statement? You must not be a democrat

[frustrated_lefty]

91. How can you be so oblivious

to who she's indebted?

[demosincebirth]

106. Don't be so naive. In case you didn't know, every politician has been indebted to some group,

contributor or PAC, etc. Even Mr Sanders. That's politics. Sorry to bring you the sad news

[frustrated_lefty]

138. Some are more indebted than others

and some might be labeled corporate whores.

[demosincebirth]

208. Using the word whore referring to Clinton is shameful and hitting below the belt. No wonder

you are "frustrated."

[Starry Messenger]

69. Que?

[Demsrule86]

153. That is a lie

Bill Clinton gave us Ginsberg...you want to cut your nose of to spite your face...fine...but tell the truth...she is way better than Trump or Cruze. They would have all branches of government...hope you have as much money as Saradan if that comes to pass because you will need it to survive. Did the Dems win after Reagan? Was Bush survivable? Hardly.

[Livluvgrow]

33. Seriously

Her fracking position is in line with saying it is cold by my hoiuse so globql warming cant be real. Let the states decide. Thats the solution to global warming frack her.

[timmymoff]

34. Hillary cares about global warming with her support of fracking and keystone?

Oh wait, she hasn't revolved to her original stance yet.

[vintx]

71. *crickets*

So typical.

Nothing beyond talking points. When you get down to policy they go silent.

[TimeToEvolve]

75. when actual legistlation regarding AGW is finally being mulled over,

i expect hillary to fold like superman on laundry day. Her cronies who helped pay for her campaign will make sure that there is a goodie bag in there for them. all past and now future environmental laws passed by DINO's are rife with compromises that allows industry to continue to pollute and destroy. try waking up for once.

a good ol' centerist. the epitome of a turncoat dem. oh and rude and condescending too.

[TimeToEvolve]

78. this is not frustration talking. it is how we've always felt.

I REFUSE TO SUPPORT A PLUTOCRAT!!
things still not clear enough?
I REFUSE TO SUPPORT A PLUTOCRAT!!

[davidn3600]

100. She'll nominate more corporatists to the Supreme Court

And we are already beyond the point of no return with global warming.

[TheKentuckian]

180. Is she going to nominate folks who will limit executive power, curtail the surveillance state, end

the stupid and failed drug war, who oppose money dominating politics, and who will rein in corporations?

Is she going to stop her global fracking initiative? Will she stand up stronger than Obama to the likes of BP? Will she be talking "all of the above" aka drill, baby, drill?

Why tout areas where there is little room to trust her like they are some walk off homerun?

When you say Supreme Court all you really mean is will uphold Roe and maybe some limitations on CU but I don't even buy that too deeply. I think her problem isn't the money but that she can't control all of it and maybe would like to review the opposition donor lists for something to hit them on. I don't recall her as much of a lion for campaign finance reform before CU.

When you say the environment, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[geek tragedy]

184. ending the drug war isn't a judicial issue

money and politics were not exactly strangers before Citizens United.

Voting rights and immigration are the bigger issues for the SCOTUS. I have full confidence she'd pick someone who is good on those issues.

[TheKentuckian]

192. It isn't. Strange, seems like somebody held up confiscation of property, authorized "Terry" stops,

leads on sentencing, upholds evidence rules, props up bad cops, reduces search standards.

I believe the courts weigh heavily on the scope and magnitude of damage caused by the drug war not dissimilar to the influence on immigration which is no less in the hands of the executive and legislative branches.

No question we already had a swamp to drain prior to CU, I have never for even a second contended differently and in fact it seems it is the Turd Way types who seem to always be implying this is where the real problems came into play.

I think the offer to me is vote for us so we can safe guard your ability to vote for us because we know you aren't going to vote for the TeaPubliKlans and please do it quietly and don't ask for anything else because we have corporate masters to obey and their agenda to forward.

[farleftlib]

186. ^^^THIS^^^

Says it all.

[athena]

18. That will teach her.

Because it's not like you'll have to live with the policies of President Trump for four or eight years.

[frustrated_lefty]

21. Here's the thing, though.

The assumption you make is that a President Trump would be more "evil" than a President Clinton. I'm saying that we're beyond the point of "more" or "less." A President Clinton would be a DIFFERENT kind of evil, but the degree of suckiness has passed beyond measuring in terms of "more" or "less." Hillary is still going to nominate right-wing judges for the Supreme Court. She'll get involved in as many, if not more, "military interventions." She'll compromise on abortion, she's already agreed to it. She'll compromise Social Security. She is NOT the lesser of two evils, she's a DIFFERENT kind of evil.

[athena]

27. None of your assumptions are true.

Hillary is not the evil right-winger you seem to think she is. Please look into her record. Here is an excellent, unbiased article. (It was published in The Nation, which ended up endorsing Bernie).

http://www.thenation.com/article/can-hillary-clinton-win-over-the-left/

 For the first half of her political life, Hillary Clinton was consistently painted as so far left—so feminist—that it threatened her husband’s political viability. Whenever that viability was in doubt, she would overcorrect, trying to convince a skeptical mainstream press that she wasn’t nearly as liberal as she seemed. Eventually, the strategy of triangulation—using the left as a foil to prove her moderate bona fides—became nearly reflexive.

In recent years, however, America’s political context has been transformed. With the white South becoming solidly Republican—something that happened during Bill Clinton’s administration—the Democratic Party has become more reliant on the votes of women, people of color, and those who wear the “liberal” label proudly. This means that elections have become less about wooing swing voters than about turning out the base. Meanwhile, policies once supported by a smug centrist consensus—from Wall Street deregulation to military adventurism in the Middle East—have proved themselves failures, pushing the center of gravity in the Democratic Party to the left. Triangulation has become passé.

This means that, in a historical irony, Hillary Clinton now needs to convince progressives that she really is who she was once widely believed to be. She is running for president as a progressive feminist, something that would have been utterly quixotic when she entered public life.

The entire article is worth reading.

[timmymoff]

38. Can Hillary Clinton win over the left?

The title says it all. She isn't left, she must win us over. Been saying it all along she isn't remotely close to liberal and she isn't remotely close to having earned my support.

[athena]

41. Read the article. Not just the title.

Don't make comments on an article you clearly haven't read. It looks bad.

[timmymoff]

44. I'm not about appearances

nor do I have to read about Hillary's record shit she's been running for president since 2007. I can tell left from right pretty easy.

[athena]

49. So commenting on an article you haven't read is about substance, not appearance?

And reading it before commenting is about appearance, not substance?

If so, then up is down and black is white. And Bernie just won New York! And electing Trump president will be the best thing that ever happened to the U.S. and will greatly reduce the level of income inequality!

Enjoy your evening. Clearly, you already know everything there is to know. Who needs to read when you can just make stuff up?

[timmymoff]

54. It is quite possible you may not be smart enough

to grasp the fact that the title asks can she win over the left. With that simple statement and me being a minute portion of the left I will answer for my portion. No, she can not win over this portion of the left. By the title also asking can she win over the left, it implies she is not of the left. Deal.

[athena]

64. You know, there is a lot more to an article than just the title.

There is actual content. Reading the title of an article is not the same as reading the entire article. Often, the title is not even picked by the person who wrote the article.

In this case, the content of the article is about Hillary's record, not about whether she can win over the left. But of course, you don't know that because you thought you knew enough about the article by just reading the title.

By the way, Hillary is not "the left". Neither is Bernie. The left is made up of voters. It is not a single person. And as a leftist, I do not feel that an angry person like Bernie who makes lots of promises but can't explain how he will keep them represents me or my concerns.

And you then suggest I'm not smart enough. I happen to have a Ph.D. in physics and find it very amusing when people on DU suggest I'm stupid. Anyway, it's always when they can't respond to the substance of an argument that Bernie supporters resort to name calling. In this case, it's not even a response to an argument we're talking about; it's the effort it takes to read an article.

[timmymoff]

65. I didn't even read your novella of a comment.

Can Hillary sway the left? No! Is Hillary part of the left? I am sure you are brilliant .

[athena]

70. Ooh, it was too long to read? As in more than one line long?

That really limits the level of discussion one can have with someone.

[timmymoff]

68. If you support hillary, you are not part of the left

you are part of the problem. A vote for her is quite possibly a vote against every moral stance that can be taken.

[athena]

73. If you hate the Democratic nominee that much, you are not part of the left yourself.

This is Democratic Underground, not Hillary Haters Underground.

I am still waiting for you to make a substantive comment that does not resort to personal attacks.

[timmymoff]

74. Nothing democratic about her but her the letter behind her name.

She will serve her corporate masters well. Enjoy the oligarchy.

[athena]

76. I posted an article that disproves your claim.

But you couldn't be bothered to read it. You can't really debunk something you haven't actually read.

[timmymoff]

79. again

Do you think I am absolutely so forgetful that I forgot her past and her votes? You think I forgot how she has been wrong on every issue before she got it right? Are you calling me forgetful, stupid, uninformed? Which is it? All of them? I am quite well of her record, aaaaaaaaaaand am equally unimpressed. An article will not change that.

[athena]

81. How do you know if you haven't read it?

Are you afraid of what it might contain?

[timmymoff]

84. Have I not explained how I know her record?

I'll read it when I read her transcripts. That I do not know.

[creeksneakers2]

52. Hillary has a very liberal voting record

Her votes that weren't liberal get singled out and repeated endlessly. But taken as a whole, she has a very liberal record. Her ADA scores were usually 95 out of 100.

[timmymoff]

59. Yup and when she screws up it's freakin big time!

Game changing votes.

[Demsrule86]

155. She is left

So go home and pout and pray the rest of us bail your sorry self out because no matter what you think a GOP presidency is unthinkable. How long can you keep doing this...at some point you need to stop ragging on Hillary.

[timmymoff]

195. She's as liberal as Max Baucus

John Breaux, Byron Dorgan.

[frustrated_lefty]

57. I appreciate the polite and information-filled reply.

My apologies, but I don't think we can see eye-to-eye.

Despite "the first half of her political life," she was a Goldwater girl.

She still triangulates (but she doesn't pull it off with the same charm that Bill did). She qualifies every statement, predicates every assertion, and dances around ever taking a solid stance.

She's a hawk.

She defends the "super-predator" nonsense.

She supports fracking, despite scientist's conclusions about the damage it causes.

She demeaned the very women her husband was philandering with.

She, at a minimum, showed incredibly poor judgment with the home server.

She has lots of support from the fossil fuel industry.

She has lots of support from Big-Pharma.

She has massive support from Wall Street.

I cannot believe she has any reason for running for president than personal aggrandizement, and I think she's going to make horrible decisions.

Thank you again for the article and the polite response, but we disagree on this.

-fl

[creeksneakers2]

67. Do you have a link

where Hillary demeaned the women?

She was only a Goldwater girl when she was very young.

Bernie said he isn't going to get rid of fracking either, except in the long run. Hillary is for alternative energy too.

[frustrated_lefty]

86. A few links

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3417745/If-read-committed-suicide-don-t-believe-Dramatic-warning-Clinton-mistress-claims-Hillary-s-associates-harassed-1980s-affair-Bill.html

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=8204

You can question the source information, most assuredly. But, in searching the web, I haven't seen much disparity in the accounts.

As to, "She was only a Goldwater girl when she was very young," I agree. My reply was only in response to your statement of her very early commitment to liberal ideals.

Alternative energy: Hillary receives a lot of donations from the fossil fuel industry. Do you really trust her to regulate it?

[creeksneakers2]

196. Thanks for the links

I don't see anything there specific that she did. I don't see any examples of her demeaning the women. Some of it sounds like plain paranoia, like cars slowing down in front of the house believed to be stalkers sent from the Clintons.

Yes, I do trust Hillary. Bernie is exceptional at raising funds in small donations for his admirable and generous base. However, nearly all other politicians are forced to raise donations from rich people. Yet, things get regulated.

[k8conant]

89. I read all of that apology for Hillary Clinton...

from last August.

Did you read the comments? How do you counter the September response?

[athena]

98. It's pretty insulting to call that article an "apology" for Clinton.

You show your bias in calling it that.

In response to that comment:

1. Serving on Walmart's board does not make her responsible for all of Walmart's actions. On the contrary, serving on a board means you can try to use the power you're given to change the system from the inside.

2. Hillary voted to give the president the authority to invade Iraq because at the time, most people thought W. wanted the authority for bargaining power. I, and others, were cynical and did not believe this, but many smart people did. If you did not live through that, it's easy to dismiss Hillary's Iraq vote as a bad decision that disqualifies her.

3. If Hillary were a pacifist, she would not be electable. As a pacifist, I accept that the U.S. is not going to elect a pacifist to the presidency in our lifetime. I'd much rather have Hillary as president than as a pacifist who has no political power.

[k8conant]

103. No I'm just a careful reader...

1. What change did Hillary effect at Wal-Mart?
2. Of course, I lived through the Bush baloney about Iraq and his rash decision to invade to get revenge for his Poppy.
So what is Hillary's excuse for not being properly cynical?
3. Why do you think only hawks are electable? You claim to be a pacifist yet you sell out in a heartbeat?

[truedelphi]

133. HRC is Pro Big Banks, Pro Big Military, Pro Endless Surveillance,

Pro Fracking, and Pro Monsanto.

"The Nation" can publish whatever they want, and have a good go at sugar coating this vile human, but so what? Tell it to the families of the dead women martyrs of the Honduras.

[catnhatnh]

23. Your entire post is garbage

And I especially like the part where you claim he might be president for 8 years. How about this-people like you cause a president Donald Trump- and then you "assume" he would be re-elected??? I ain't trying to teach her-she is already ruined. War needs to be discredited.

[athena]

35. Did you live through the 2000 election?

Do you remember how so many of us supported Nader, thinking that Gore was not liberal enough, and that in any case, four years of W. wouldn't be the end of the world?

No one on the left -- not a single person -- thought W. could be re-elected. No one thought 9/11 would happen. No one could imagine that W. would have 90+% approval ratings a year into his presidency.

What that election taught some of us is that we can't take anything for granted. You can't allow a right-wing nutcase to be elected President just to teach the Democratic party a lesson. That's not how things work. When W. was elected, the Democratic party did not move left; it moved right. If Trump is elected in November, the Democratic Party will once again move right, and all the hard work of moving it left over the past ten years will have been for naught.

[creeksneakers2]

58. The next Republican

would be light years worse then Bush too, especially if its Ted Cruz.

[athena]

77. Agreed. If a Republican wins in November,

the W. years will seem in retrospect like a time of relative peace and prosperity.

[TheKentuckian]

185. The party always moves right, win or lose that's the whole Turd Way concept.

The only actual moving left is leading from behind once forced by the courts or the states and that only if the donor class gives the A-OK.

[demosincebirth]

25. Against Trumper? Man, those grapes must really be sour. You can take your bat and ball and

go home, now.

[HooptieWagon]

167. Even if she wins, she loses.

GOP starts impeachment on day one to weaken her for 2020.

[IdaBriggs]

24. Heads Up: Jury Results

On Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:00 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I will NEVER vote for Hillary Clinton
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511785945

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

The expectation of DUers is that they will support the Democratic party nominee for President.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Apr 19, 2016, 10:14 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Each person is entitled to vote as they see fit, you don't have to agree with it but it is their right. You can't force people to vote for the candidate of your choice. Also until the convention in July, there is no Democratic nominee.

Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: TOS Violation as far as I can see

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Skinner said primary season is still on. Stop alert stalking people who don't support your candidate.

[snooper2]

26. we knew that already- enjoy the shitty forum you'll be posting at!

[catnhatnh]

46. Yeah- you can kiss my ass

I put this in GD-P just so people like you could argue or complain about me.Then we could argue on merits. To call an open forum Shitty is ridiculous. Make a point or go home.

[snooper2]

172. Do you have a nice ass? Oh, and I was talking about jackiepinie "radicals" so "RADICAL!" LOL

[woolldog]

29. Who cares?

[workinclasszero]

31. Trump and Rush Limpballs LOVE YOU!!!!

[think]

37. Kissinger and Bush LOVE you back.....

[workinclasszero]

45. I'd off myself before I'd set back and hope a fascist pig like Trump gets elected!

YMMV

[catnhatnh]

50. Really?

Because you know who Kissinger endorses...

[think]

51. Such great choices. A neocon corporate puppet or a fascist. Makes me just warm and fuzzy....

[Jester Messiah]

42. Then how much more must they love you?

You, who foisted upon us the most divisive candidate in memory. Ah well, Have fun in the general. Just think back on this moment on election night, when you're wondering what just happened.

[still_one]

40. Bernie Sanders Supports Keeping Troops In Afghanistan

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-afghanistan_us_5623b601e4b08589ef47bdaa

[book_worm]

43. Vote for whoever you want-I really don't care

Most Democratic and Democratic leaning voters will vote for Clinton over Trump or Cruz. Go ahead and don't vote for her or vote Green. It doesn't matter to most people what you do.

[catnhatnh]

48. Great

I'm so glad you endorse me!

[pdsimdars]

140. Hillary is not a Democrat. She is a Republican. See chart below.

[actslikeacarrot]

47. Well I already gave my loyalty oath...

...but I will draw the line at the inevitable "blood oath" that will soon be required to post here. I just don't get it, Clinton has NEVER met an "overseas adventure" she didn't like. I thought we were against that sort of thing.

[cantbeserious]

105. Welcome To The New Democratic Party Where Neocons And Neoliberals Dance And Sing Together

eom

[BreakfastClub]

53. These threats are made every primary. It's no big deal if you don't vote for her. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

62. This poster makes a heartfelt post about how war cheapens life and all you can say is

no big deal if you don't vote for her?

[catnhatnh]

72. Hey Thank you

He was nothing special. Just one more Guy drafted in '69. Then later he shows up in a book about the siege at Firebase Ripcord. Just one more guy who had his squad overrun at an NDP and all his people appear on panel 11West.

[kgnu_fan]

56. Thank you

[LibDemAlways]

61. If the Democratic Party establishment is

hell bent on nominating a pro-war corporatist, then I need to rethink my party affiliation because today's Democratic Party certainly doesn't represent my values.

[Esperanza]

88. I've been a Democrat

since I could vote - 44 years. I've worked in campaigns, donated money, been a delegate at my County convention. The first campaign I worked on was for a woman who was running for Governor in 1972. I am a woman and a feminist. I will never vote for Hillary. I made that decision long before Bernie ever entered the race. I will vote for some Democrats at the local and State level, but that's it. I would express myself more strongly, but would probably get kicked off this board.

[vintx]

63. Same. This kind of person will never get my vote:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511786795

[ismnotwasm]

66. Ok

[nini]

80. Don't.. but if you're serious

spend your time working at the local level and get the congress back in the D column. Anything short of that is simply tantrums because you didn't get your way.


BTW: my brother was in Vietnam too and saw all the same crap. He would NEVER sit back and not vote Dem and allow a repuke to be up even one vote because there's far too much at stake.

[nolawarlock]

82. I'm glad some folks have the luxury of not caring.

For many people, the distinction between the Republicans and either of our Democratic candidates is a chasm we cannot afford to ignore.

Moreover, I simply do not understand why anyone thinks our vote is going to be changed because people threaten not to vote for our candidate.

[Esperanza]

94. It's not a luxury.

I've been hearing that song for too long to be moved by it. I've witnessed a decades long, relentless retreat from democratic values and I'm fed up.

Believe me, I have no illusions about changing your vote. I do get to tell you what I think about it.

[nolawarlock]

111. I don't know this time.

I get it. I was a politics major in college and I've followed it all to some degree or another for years, and they always say, "this is the most important election of our lifetimes!" So yeah, it does sorta feel like we don't get to get the candidate we want. I wanted Hillary last time and got Obama, though I'm certainly proud of the job he's done. But the thing is, I think this time, this really is the most pivotal election of our lifetime. George W. Bush never said things as horrible as Trump is saying now. I think this man is truly dangerous, not just another four years to hold our breaths through. I mean truly dangerous. I could despise Hillary with the fires of a thousand suns, and I'd still vote for her over Trump. Heck, I don't think Bernie Sanders is right for this job at all, but I'll still vote for him over Trump.

I think this may actually be the most important election in our lifetime. What would I rather have? The first woman president or a truly unrepentant bigot whose personal style is so acerbic, he's liable to get us in the war to end all wars.

[Esperanza]

122. It was the most important election

of my lifetime. If Hillary has won the nomination, then all is truly lost. The oligarchy has won. As a woman and a feminist who has campaigned for female candidates for 44 years, I have to say that her election - trickle down feminism at its worst - will not be a victory for women. Her economic policies are devastating for women. I supported Obama and was a delegate for him when he ran in 2008. He has been a horrible president.

I say that all is lost, but I hope the people who have been inspired by the Bernie Sanders campaign will continue to fight. They will probably have to do it outside the Democratic Party.

[nolawarlock]

125. Well you'll pardon me if I'm not as pessimistic. N/t

[Esperanza]

130. Look at her inner circle,

the people she keeps around her. Neoliberal corporatists to the core.

Good luck with the optimism.

[nolawarlock]

131. If you really see her as no different than Trump

Then there really isn't a point in continuing to go back and forth.

[Esperanza]

136. I didn't say there

is no difference, but you're right. There is absolutely no point to this conversation.

[Art_from_Ark]

116. That chasm between Hillary and the Republicans is not so wide

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-trailguide-04172016-hillary-clinton-praises-a-president-but-not-the-o-1460935101-htmlstory.html

[nolawarlock]

119. It's called recognizing the humanity in people.

I respect that Hillary can find ways of relating to candidates on the other side of the aisle. I consider among my friends people of many political, racial, social, economic, and spiritual stripes. I do not believe it is prudent to isolate oneself into enclaves where only the echo of your own ideas can be heard. I am sure there are qualities to living in the White House that only those who have lived there can truly understand. I would rather Hillary be able to shake the hand of Mr. Bush than spit in his face since the latter cannot ever lead to effective compromise. It's one of the things I like most about her as a candidate. But, that camaraderie aside, are you really going to fault Hillary Clinton for being grateful to a president from the other party helping to get twenty-million dollars to help New York in the wake of 9/11? Is that really so terrible an issue to negotiate on?

[Art_from_Ark]

120. Hillary had to shill for Bush's Iraq war on the Senate floor

in order to get that money.

[Avalux]

188. The distinction you speak of is gone, sorry to tell you.

I care - that's why I'm not going to vote for ANYONE (Dem or GOP) who gets excited about invading and bombing other countries.
Done with it.

[nolawarlock]

194. Well, then we must agree to disagree.

[The Second Stone]

83. It's time to prohibit bashing the statistically certain nominee.

This is a democratic site.

[onecaliberal]

92. Indeed this is a dem site, have you asked yourself why you support a candidate

Whose views are almost identical to republicans?

[The Second Stone]

99. You apparently know very little about politics

if you think that is the case. Hillary Clinton likes herself quite well. Republicans hate Hillary Clinton with the kind of hatred unseen in the USA except in the hatred of some Sanders supporters of Hillary Clinton. Have you asked yourself why it is going to be so wonderful to have Hillary Clinton as the next President of the United States? The answer is that it will piss off all the right people.

[onecaliberal]

101. Don't come crying when you elect trump. An insult from the likes of you means

Zilch to me.

[The Second Stone]

104. Don't come crying to me when you elect nobody. An insult from a Bernie

supporter is a badge of honor to me. I am a Democrat. That means I go with the majority vote as a theory of governing. I'm not into imposing the will of an elite minority on the majority of voters. I get that you think that Sanders supporters are a lot smarter than everyone else. It's an opinion you are entitled to, but one that I do not share even slightly.

I won't miss the "Bernie math" where a statistic of losing not so badly, or even winning small numbers of voters for a stretch, is deemed the undisputed will of the majority. It isn't. It's desperate garbage from people unhinged from the reality that more votes is what wins.

[pdsimdars]

141. And you apparently know very little about ISSUES and what it means to be a Democrat

[redstateblues]

205. That bullshit. Hillary was one of the most liberal Senators

In Congress. If you lump her in with people like Cruz you are showing your ignorance.

[Marrah_G]

121. Primaries are NOT over

[The Second Stone]

124. Everyone is welcome to vote for whomever they wish.

But the libels about Hillary Clinton should cease. They will not benefit Sen. Sanders any longer.

[Marrah_G]

129. Sorry- she does not get treated like the nominee until she is actually the nominee

[The Second Stone]

134. You are entitled to your opinion and actions

and so are others. It isn't an opinion that I can respect.

[Marrah_G]

169. This is how the rules go on DU

Frankly- I don't care if you respect my opinion or not.

[The Second Stone]

191. See, we do have something in common

Best wishes in your endeavors.

[That Guy 888]

123. We have to nominate someone first... n/t

[Kittycat]

135. When she earns it. The math, remember?

Last I looked, she hasn't crossed the Pledged Delegate line. And until she does, you will just need to deal with it.

[Pastiche423]

97. Neither will I.

I do not vote for corporatist, warmongers, liars or cheaters.

[The Second Stone]

107. So what then is Vermont's Senator sucking up to the NRA?

That is a corporatist. More Americans die every year from guns in this country than the last 40 in wars. And we fight a lot of wars. And when the Bernster says he is a Democrat? That's a lie. When his campaign hacked the DNC computer, he is a cheater too.

Do it looks like you do support a corporatist, warmonger, liar and cheater. You are just very selective about what facts constitute reality and how to interpret them.

[TM99]

115. More bullshit from a Clintonite.

So sad really that y'all debase yourselves so with lies, innuendo, smears, and rat-fuckery.

[Surya Gayatri]

102. Your vote is your vote. Yours to use or abuse as you will.

[demosincebirth]

108. I guess you might be bumped out of Democratic Underground.

[Skid Rogue]

113. It's all okay...

Vote for whomever you want to vote for. Don't stress out about it.

What's that green person's name... Jill something?

[BainsBane]

132. Bernie is out

The choice now is between Clinton and the GOP. If you aren't going to support Democrats, you don't belong here.
By all means, ,vote for Trump. Vote to make the military really "Yuge," better than ever.

People have rejected the campaign of bumper sticker slogans, of a candidate who proved himself unable to even articulate how he would implement the core ideas he had been campaigning on for months.

If we elect Bernie Sanders I believe we start to stop loving wars...

There is nothing in Sanders record to support this "belief." He has voted for every defense appropriations bill, ensured $1 trillion in funding for Lockheed-Martin's F-35, despite the fact it's a boondoggle that kills pilots. The only military intervention he voted against is Iraq. There is nothing dovish about him.

We now have a Democratic nominee. You can choose to support the Democrat or enable Trump to come to office and make good on his promise to build the military even bigger than it is now. We are now at the point where refusing to vote for Clinton promotes the GOP, which promotes more military spending and more military interventions abroad.

Bernie lost. He would have to get 71 percent of the remaining delegates to win. He hasn't even been able to reach 50. He's finished. No amount of delusion or fantasy justifies ongoing attacks against Democrats. The women who support the Democratic party are not "whores." The "Southerners" and "confederates" who are the single most loyal demographic supporting the Dem Party in all 50 states are not worth less than rural whites or self-entitled "progressives" who supported Sanders. The primary has been decided. Bernie has gone home. Enough with the bullshit. Other people besides yourselves get to vote, and they rejected Bernie, despite his outspending Clinton 2: 1 in NY and every other state he lost. You don't have to like it, but it is reality. Either you support Clinton or the GOP. You will decide in accordance with your own values: If what you seek is to punish the majority by stripping away their civil rights, then you will refuse to support the nominee. But don't for a second thing we buy these claims about caring about war when refusing to vote for Clinton promotes a candidate that promises even greater military expansion.

[dinkytron]

137. Hawk vs. Sparrow.

[pdsimdars]

142. Nice!

[Demsrule86]

147. If it was Bernie vs Hillary in the General

You could have it your way...but with Trump....well all I can say is many would die...war monger. He would destabilize the world...not just the middle east like Bush. I am a Democrat had Hillary lost, I would have voted for Bernie and worked my ass of to get him elected.

[farleftlib]

189. Many will die if HRC is elected too

probably more. He's not as much as an interventionist as she is. Either one and there
will be a massive loss of life as well as a poor quality of life for those who survive.

[Cobalt Violet]

149. Won't vote for her either.

Why would I vote to cut my own throat? I'll never vote for a Thirdway dem again.

[baldguy]

151. Another HUUUGE! announcement from a BoB Trump supporter.

[JoePhilly]

171. + 1

[BeyondGeography]

152. That's your privilege

[randome]

154. Just like Sanders, you don't believe in teamwork. S'okay, we'll muddle along without you.

And no one loves war. That's an idiotic thing to say on a Democratic forum.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[pampango]

156. I didn't vote for her in the Ohio primary but I respect the wishes of all Democrats.

If my life consisted of perfect choices the GE would be Sanders against Cruz. Unfortunately my life is about imperfect choices.

[smiley]

159. My mind was made up last night.

I can't support corruption.

[Arneoker]

160. You wouldn't have voted for FDR

[smiley]

163. I won't support corruption.

[kgnu_fan]

168. understand

[randome]

190. What happened last night for you to make up your mind? Sanders losing?

Seems like a poor hook on which to hang your hat.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tommy_Carcetti]

173. 69 recs and counting. Ugh.

Not DU's finest moment, I'll have to say.

[Anaxamander]

178. I won't say never, but...

...it's going to be a hard decision for me.

[Orsino]

182. That's a luxury we may be abe to afford.

I hope you'll allow yourself a loophole for voting against the Republican nominee--but your vote's your own.

[closeupready]

183. She doesn't care, and doesn't need or want votes from those who don't want to vote for her.

She and her supporters have made that crystal clear. So rest easy - if she loses in the general, it is 100% on HER and HER SUPPORTERS - NOT on you.

Cheers.

[KamaAina]

187. Enjoy President Trump.

[redstateblues]

206. Hillary will crush Trump

You obviously haven't been following the race

[Squinch]

201. OK, then don't. It would have been nice to have you with us, but we'll

do just fine without you.

It just isn't that big of a deal.