2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumChairman PolySci Dept So Univ Baton Rouge: Sanders comments about deep south "stupid".
No question about it, we got murdered there, Sanders, I-Vt., said at a debate with Hillary Clinton in Brooklyn, N.Y. on April 14. That is the most conservative part of this great country, that's the fact. But you know what, we're out of the Deep South now.
By devaluing some of the most loyal and solidly Democratic-voting citizens in this country, Sen. Sanders has again shown himself to be out of touch with our party and our partys values, said Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., a member of the Congressional Black Caucus and a Clinton supporter.
Factually, its not wrong, but politically it was stupid, he said of the point Sanders made at the debate. Youre insulting the core of your base. The base of the party is black people in the South.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/04/22/sen-bernie-sanders-offends-some-comments-south/83397170/
===============
Clearly Bernie made yet another mistake regarding African Americans. Seems he simply doesn't get it when it comes to the issues and feelings of AA voters.
mcar
(42,376 posts)Behind insulting, demeaning and deriding your core voter base due to where they live. I'm a Florida Democrat. My vote will be very important in the GE and I intend to use it to keep FL blue in Presidential races.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Or he simply doesn't understand or connect with folks in the south which is possible since he has not spent much time in that part of the country.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Do they get upset when they are called the Red states? An euphemism for conservatism. I guess if he danced around it we'd call him Clinton.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)and answering questions in a straightforward way without evasiveness and defelction
DCBob
(24,689 posts)No question about it, we got murdered there. I didn't connect well with the good Democrats in the Deep South... perhaps I needed a bit more time to better explain my more progressive message. But we are now moving to states that will likely be more receptive to my message."
That would have been fine.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)he has said the equivalent of what you suggested many times. He has also advocated from the beginning a "50 state strategy" overall for the Dem Party.
What is sad about this campaign (and some of it is Sanders campaign fault) is the guy does really have an incredible depth of knowledge and interests and successful experience at "getting things done" and great political instincts.
But in out media and political culture, it's all just soundbites and missteps that is the focus,. So we continually elect con artists.
It's like the Daily News interview. He stumbled a couple of times, and that's thrown through the megaphone as proof that he "doesn't understand the issues" despite the fact that he has been working on these issues in the trenches of Congress and related committees for years.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)What Bernie said was dismissive.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)masquerading as issues.
And they're tired of slick hucksters. That's why so many people have either tuned out of the stale corrupt circus and become cynical and apathetic, or gravitate to people like Trump (on the dark side, and paradoxically in a phony way) and Sanders (on the positive side and someone who says what he thinks, and says what a substantial segment of the public thinks, including a substantial number of Democrats).
Yes Clinton got more votes among party loyalists in Dem primaries for a combination of reasons, some legitimate and some bogus. She's better at marketing.
But in the larger sense, people want more honesty and straightforwardness, not this "gotchya" parsing and carefully phrased non-answers
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)This is news to anyone living within 200 miles of the pacific.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I think i lost some iq points just listening to that.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)As it turns out, if she's the nominee, someone else is going to release HER transcripts.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Now that would be cool.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)particularly east coast or beltway types.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)That was the comment I was responding to.
reddread
(6,896 posts)do you need me to check for you?
https://www.google.com/#q=la+to+las+vegas+miles
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Check it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But I would argue that the Pacific Northwest is its own region, anyway. And I think once you get north of Gilroy, CA HRC's performance is gonna drop off markedly.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Hillary was correct.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)But the consistent measage from our east coast betters has been that the 50 million of us on the west coast dont really matter, anyway.
onenote
(42,768 posts)That would be a new definition of the western region of the US.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And I didn't say "region", I said "coast".
Now explain why CA and OR and WA don't matter, or why it's okay to continually discount our issues and concerns.
i already did my part.
as if 200 miles from anywhere means anything,
california is not that skinny.
but it is that populous.
no.
http://www.dimensionsinfo.com/what-is-the-size-of-california/
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Like the people who have never been west of new jersey, should check it out sometime.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Hope to try it someday.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)One of the most fun was the old route 66. Even though it isnt route 66 anymore, you can still find a lot of the old "worlds largest ball of twine" attractions along the way.
reddread
(6,896 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)All of Wall Street. That is all the employees, voters, are going out to vote. That is all the businesses that make a living off Wall Street. That is all of govt making money off Wall Street, and then expecting these people to vote for him. I thought it an odd idea to create all these individual voters as "evil" yet, expect them to vote for him.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Even if it means losing an election. Another reason he is risky as our nominee.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Yes, that is stupid.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)But of course when it is tens of thousands of dead gay men it's great to tell a pack of insulting lies to polish the reputation of Republican bigots.
You split hairs for Bernie while handing out Free Passes to Hillary to say horrible things. Horrible, awful lies. Smears against good people, praise for monsters, lies about history.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Ciao.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)the rest is just window dressing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511812440
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1812341
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Besides, he's right factually. You want him to be Clinton who says whatever to get elected? Really?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Not all of life's lesson can be found in a college seminar.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)is not in fact conservative in nature? That bigotry toward LGBT is glorious and progressive? Those who pass hateful discriminatory laws much not be criticized?
NC Democrats voted for that hateful law the country is boycotting them over. Democrats who endorsed Hillary voted for it. That's what you proudly stand with and I will never forget that.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Please don't put words into my mouth. I consider it a form of bullying.
Thank you in advance.
I stand against bigotry wherever it raises its ugly face. I also stand against shaming and collective guilt with the same fervor.
As to bigotry I have lived in New York City, suburban Orlando, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Tallahassee, and no Los Angeles. I have heard homophobic, anti-semitic, racist, and generally bigoted comments in all three venues. I have even discussed it here. Auto Search is your friend.
I didn't learn that in a text book. I learned that, from well, listening to people.
DSB
P.S. If you control for time I have heard more bigoted comments in L A than in all the other places. I suspect some bigots think any white person is a kindred spirit.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Because you can't. So you carry on and on as if being asked a question is bullying. You are the Straight Person defending anti-gay bullshit out of your candidate. You need to just own that fact.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Again, please stop bullying me.
And you have no idea what somebody's orientation is on a bulletin board so please full stop.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)That's toxic. That's bullying. Those anti gay laws you defend are legalized bullying. NC passed a new one, with Democratic votes, Hillary endorses voted for it. That's a fact. A fact you refuse to discuss.
This is a discussion board. You made a declaration, I asked you a question and you called that bullying because you did not have an answer. My question, most excellent question which exposes the fakery of your posture.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)in the South every State has those laws, they are making more of them and some Southern Democrats who have endorsed Hillary support those law.
You are trying to say that CA or NY, which have protections for LGBT under the law are just as bigoted as States that have no protections and in fact have laws which oppress and attacks us. That's insane.
And you as a straight person lecturing me about anti LGBT bigotry is just smug as can be. It's nasty.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)I am not willing to collectively punish a whole region because it some of its residents are bigots. I don't hold the entire nation of Germany responsible for turning my ancestors into soap.
Bigotry is not endemic to any nation or region. It is a universal failing.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It's just speaking the truth. You are again saying that they have the right to both discriminate against minorities they don't like and be seen as progressives. That they can pass a new set of bigoted laws each week but we can't call them conservatives? NC Democrats voted for that law. Five of them, all Hillary endorsers. Birds of a feather.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Senator Sanders did not lose the south and is losing the race because the south is conservative. He lost the south and is losing this race because he has failed to connect with African Americans and Hispanics in any meaningful way. If you chose to believe it is because they are conservative that is your prerogative.
Senator Sanders has also lost New York, Ohio, Illinois, Guam, Iowa, and Massachusetts. Last I checked there weren't many Rebels there.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Evicting people because they are gay is a punishment.
You can't even speak to the points I am making. Your position is untenable so you keep shifting it. Those States that discriminate against LGBT are conservative States. That's just a fact. You excuse and defend it, that's also a fact.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)bigoted laws are conservative places. Facts are facts. They can't have the cake and eat it too. 'We get to be virulently and increasingly bigoted but you must not call us conservative, that's shaming us for merely wanting to fire and evict all those LGBT!
What you seek is to punish those who speak out against this bigotry, who call conservatism by it's own name. Fuck that noise.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Assigning group behavior to an individual is wrong. Those clowns who voted for the bathroom law should be voted out of office but there are a lot of good and open minded people in North Carolina and in the rest of the south who oppose bigotry whenever it raises it ugly face. They don't deserve to be thrown in with them.
Bernie Sanders won freaking Wyoming. That's where Matthew Shepard was crucified. You don't see Clinton supporters disparaging the entire state. Bernie Sanders won freaking Idaho. It's a hotbed of white nationalism and virtually all white. When Mark Fuhrman was shamed out of Los Angeles for saying he wished all the black people were thrown into a pile and set on fire where did he choose to live? Idaho. You don't see Clinton supporters disparaging the entire state.
I share your contempt for homophobia and all forms of intolerance and bigotry and that contempt also prevents me from prejudging entire groups of individual based solely on their place of residence.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Which is dumb. The States are red because of the Republicans there, mostly white. Those voters have nothing to do with his democratic primary loss.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Further you and Bernie quit blaming NC LIBERALS for the fact they are outnumbered by real conservatives there, which are called Republiccans. Though I know you are no longer for Bernie obviously as he associated himself with the homophobic head of an ancient homophobic organization.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Google it. You might discover a few life experiences "outside of a college seminar."
KingFlorez
(12,689 posts)The reason why he was wrong is because his suggestion that Clinton won those states because they are more conservative is wrong. Sanders lost the very liberal vote all across the south and the counties that he actually won are far from being liberal.
Obama 12 Romney 12 Sanders 16
Baker 20.29% 78.80% 47.40%
Calhoun 26.91% 70.61% 45.20%
Dixie 25.84% 72.60% 45.10%
Gilchrist 23.75% 74.55% 50.70%
Holmes 15.25% 83.46% 51.70%
Lafayette 20.17% 78.33% 51.60%
Liberty 28.64% 74.55% 47.10%
Suwanee 26.85% 71.63% 44.30%
Union 24.76% 73.59% 51.60%
Obama 12 Romney 12 Sanders 16
Echols 15.66% 82.99% 51.43%
Obama 12 Romney 12 Sanders 16
Carter 23.23% 75.20% 50.95%
Unicoi 27.00% 71.01% 51.22%
Washington 29.82% 68.30% 53.07%
Say something now.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Voters in the base to win a national election. There are many more issues than just Wall Street. He talks about big money and then he raises big money.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)I believe he got the vast majority of black votes in those states but very few electoral votes.
DCBob
(24,689 posts).. "dismissive, unimportant, we dont need you, we dont care"
That's "stupid".
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)and they turn out in larger numbers to vote-THAT is the problem.
I live in fucking TX and believe me I know. After 4 attempts by the repukes and Tom DeLay to gerrymander my liberal congresscritter, I'm glad to say that Lloyd Doggett is STILL my Congressman, but other parts of TX got a royal screwing.
Gerrymandering, voter suppression, low turnout are the problem.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)What you wrote has nothing to do with the issue I was referring to.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)I never dismissed black voters. I stated facts about the votes.
The record for the last 40 years in the deep south does not show D wins.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Democrats in those states are just as important as any other state when it comes to picking our nominee.
Why is that so difficult for you Bernie people to understand that simple concept??
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Ciao.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... enough PD to win the nomination now, there aren't enough angry white men to win the dem nomination any longer.
And there aren't enough angry white people as a whole to win the white house.
Now, I wish the DNC would work in the off season to GOTV and treat the deep south states like they matter
BeyondGeography
(39,382 posts)Without their support he would have been soundly defeated by HRC. I am sincerely and forever grateful to them. In light of this very recent history, it's so ironic to me to hear Sanders continually dismiss Democrats in the South as uber-conservative. The stupidity and tone deafness is epic.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Hillary and her supporters keep insisting that legal discrimination against LGBT is not conservative, that those who do that are ultra liberal. It's a huge turn off. She keeps pushing the idea that anti gay entities are actually Progressive heroes:
NC passed their hateful law with Democratic support, Democrats for Hillary voted for it.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Regardless of what state they are in.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I repeat the FACTS: ". Every State in the South has anti gay laws. They keep making more of them. Democrats vote for them."
You are claiming that States which have and continue to make bigoted, discriminatory laws must not be called conservative. They are in fact very conservative and that conservatism is bipartisan enough to keep it floating. It takes a village you know.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Of course we disagree with the anti-gay stuff going on in NC and other Red states (not just southern) but that has nothing to do with respecting the votes of Democrats in those states.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)States when the fact is those States have many bigoted conservative laws that attack minorities they do not like and many of those laws pass with bipartisan support and they remain in place without significant push back from these great liberals you keep claiming must be praised for letting their neighbors face discrimination,
You and the OP Professor want to say 'These Anti Gay States are Liberal'. They are not liberal and it is wrong of you to carry on as if they were. The entire South has those laws. Other States do too. But the whole Deep South, also the not so Deep South. The entire South has legal discrimination against some minority groups.
You say that one can't call that bigotry conservative because those who vote for it must be respected? Or what?
Bigoted laws only exist when conservatives are in power. Those laws exist all over the South. The region is in fact far more conservative than say, the West Coast or NE. It just is.
Respect the LGTB in those States, stop defending that bias and claiming it is progressive. It's not.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)But that has nothing to do with respecting the votes of Democrats in those states.
Why is that simple concept so difficult for you Bernie people to understand?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)delegates. What do they expect? That we all agree with them?
Bennie Thompson has voted for many anti gay bills personally. That man you are quoting as authority. I don't respect him. Sue me.
And what did Sanders say? That the South is more conservative. Now you are saying the same thing. Funny that.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)I will answer that for you..
He said it to imply that those voters and those states are not as important. That was "stupid".
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)that? Why should these conservative States be coddled? They promote greater discrimination against LGBT regularly and Hillary folks are here demanding they be called liberals.
Even Thompson, whom you quote by choice on the matter, has voted for anti gay laws. He's conservative.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)He was dissing the south and the Dem voters there.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)gay laws. What exact actions are you looking for? You say they get to be bigoted and conservative but we can't say that they are bigoted and conservative. Is that all you demand that we call bigots progressives because Hilary says they are?
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Ciao.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)can't say it without being embarrassed by it. It is you who does not get it, and that is demonstrated by the fact that you simply can't answer a single question put to you and by the fact that you cite conservative Democrats with anti gay records to make your point. You don't even seem to recognize a conservative when you are quoting one.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Give it up dude.. your candidate is finished.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Meanwhile, you keep defending this:
"It may be hard for your viewers to remember how difficult it was for people to talk about HIV/AIDS back in the 1980s and because of both president and Mrs. Reagan in particular Mrs. Reagan we started a national conversation, when before nobody would talk about it, nobody wanted to do anything about it, and that too is something I really appreciate with her very effective low-key advocacy. It penetrated the public conscience and people began to say, hey, we have to do something about this too."
Dude, I'm not a Reagan Democrat. Dude. Never was. Never ever will be. Dude.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Their votes in the Dem primary are just as important as those in Vermont or Oregon.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)No one is saying the voters are less important, just stating the fact that the States are more conservative and thus likely to support the more conservative choice among the candidates, as they have.
Again feel free to explain to everyone how to properly express the vast respect we have for voters everywhere.... You cite bigoted Reps who have voted that I should never have equal rights. That sure as shit does not respect me. Thompson's votes did not respect me. Your promotion of him as a reasoned progressive does not respect the voters he said must never be equal.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)No question about it, we got murdered there. I didn't connect well with the good Democrats in the Deep South... perhaps I needed a bit more time to better explain my more progressive message. But we are now moving to states that will likely be more receptive to my message."
That would have been fine.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)about Reagan being an AIDS hero. Why did she say that? At all? No one even asked her, it was all lies, and she just went on and on with her smears.
And you of course just wave that way entirely. Instantly and entirely. Double Standards for the LGBT and the Jewish candidate, all license to the Straight Christians....Thompson can vote against the basic rights of millions and you cite him as a saint. Cake and Eat It Too politics.
Are you not a Straight White Male, not really in the South at all, not a minority, not LGBT? So of course you are the authority on this. It's up to you. Got it.
Rob H.
(5,352 posts)Yep. I lived in Tennessee when a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage was on the ballot and it passed 81% to 19%, which means a sizable number of Democrats crossed party lines to vote for its passage. That people are still trying to pretend that kind of thing doesn't happen is mind-blowing.
Edited to add: the county I was in went blue for Obama in the GE in 2008 and 2012, but the state went to McCain and Romney, respectively.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Voted YES on Constitutionally defining marriage as one-man-one-woman.
Proposing an amendment to the Constitution stating: "Marriage in the US shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman."
Voted YES on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage.
Marriage Protection Amendment - Declares that marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Prohibits the Constitution or any State constitution from being construed to require that marital status or its legal incidents be conferred upon any union other than that of a man and a woman.
Reference: Constitutional Amendment sponsored by Rep Musgrave [R, CO-4]; Bill H.J.RES.106 ; vote number 2004-484 on Sep 30, 2004
So. He's a conservative Democrat himself, voting against the equal rights of minorities he does not like.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Bernie and his clan keep dissing the south and act like they dont care who they offend.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)Give it up dude.. Bernie screwed up and you know it.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)honesty to discuss it from the start we might have moved on. But you are still here pretending that horrific shit was just wonderful while trying to construct some Bernie gaff that does not exist. This Love Song to Reagan exists. She did that voluntarily. And you just excuse it while subjecting Bernie to a much higher standard.
Hypocrisy and double standards are the stock in trade of bigots and those who seek to promote bigotry.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Bernie just keeps digging himself deeper and deeper.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)her smears in the larger media. She issued excuses and that was it, she and her supporters have not made amends nor bothered to educate the public about the truth. Unacceptable.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Show me Hillary on National TV speaking to the lies she told. Do not ask me to read her excuses published in a paper that coddles her while smearing Bernie.
She did her trashing of history and praise of Reagan on National Television. Her apology requires the same level of media or all she is doing is being evasive.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)I give up once again.. for real this time!
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The string of personal smears is definitive of your candidate's culture. Your OP cites a Rep that voted over and over for anti gay laws, then you come in to snark and denigrate anyone who objects to that anti gay point of view being presented as reasonable.
I ask readers to count the personal insults from you and also count the number of questions I asked you that you simply did not answer.......quite a display.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Bernie and his clan keep dissing the south and act like they don't care who they offend.
(There! That's better.)
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Thanks!
IamMab
(1,359 posts)stupidity of him and his campaign. They just keep doubling down on insulting black voters, and then they turn around and go, "We just don't get it, why black voters don't like us."
To Sanders and Devine and Weaver: It's your prejudice, stupid! It is clear that they don't know anything about black voters, and should just stop talking about them until they can get themselves educated properly. They're making asses of themselves currently, displaying progressive white privilege for the whole world to see.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)They seem completely tone deaf to the sensitivities of African Americans.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)That Guy 888
(1,214 posts)The South elects a lot of conservadems, not the only region that does, but most of the Dems that fucked us over by joining with republicans were from the South. When we try to back someone more liberal, we're told they CAN'T GET ELECTED BECAUSE LIBERALS WON"T WIN IN THE SOUTH.
But no, Sanders is obviously a racist, make sure that gets circulated in California before the Primary.
Good luck to Clinton with uniting the party.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Last poll I saw she was up several points.
Teamster Jeff
(1,598 posts)and if she wins she will ignore them just like Obama and the GOP does