Why I am voting for Hillary in the General (as a Bernie supporter).

[Grown2Hate]

First, I pre-empt: This wide-brush bullshit about "Bernie Bros" voting for Bernie over Hillary irks the fucking SHIT out of me. I'm a Bernie supporter/voter because I am more aligned with his ideals than Hillary's. But am I THRILLED to see that Hillary (in a theoretical match-up) is leading Trump in FUCKING UTAH (which KINDA sets the tone)?! You better goddamn believe it.

Because I am voting Democratic, across the board, no MATTER who is the Dem nominee (and, again, as a Bernie supporter, I feel unfortunately at this point that it's CLEARLY going to be Hillary unless something CRAZY happens). My focus is ALL of the gains we've made under President Obama, AND... THE SUPREME FUCKING COURT. PERIOD (in case my actual punctuation wasn't loud enough).

I love this primary, because it ACTUALLY moved the needle; Socialist isn't a BAD WORD. We're "taking it back". And even if Bernie doesn't win, we still have his voice in the Senate. Along with Warren. And we slay a dragon like Trump (don't let me go down another rabbit hole, but I'd take Trump, gun to my head, over any of these other Repub nominees, if I had to pick one to be President, only because I don't think he actually believes any of the shit he says; i.e. he's been pro-choice his whole life until about, oh, 10 months ago #elevator).

Maybe this is fucked up to say as a Democrat, but here I go: I picture politics/politicians as us, as a country, sliding down a slope to inevitable doom. The Democrats are the brakes; they at least TRY, for the most part, to stop us from sliding further (some have more of a lead foot than others), while the Republicans are cutting the fucking brake lines. No matter HOW bad the Democrat in a given race, we're in better shape than if the Republican got in. To further that analogy, TRUE progressives, are trying to push us back up that hill, and steer us away from doom entirely. That is my ideal situation; but if that person isn't available to vote for in the GE, I'm going to be diplomatic and vote for our best option.

Call me "Third Way" or whatever bullshit honestly doesn't apply to me ideologically. But seriously? I just want the brakes hit as hard as possible.

That's my round-about way of saying that I'm voting for Hillary if Bernie isn't the nominee, and I won't be holding my nose. But please quit fucking dismissing Bernie supporters. You won't lose ME, but WE can't afford to lose ANY.

[MADem]

1. Mr Sulu??? Is that you?????

George Takei said something very similar the other day!



Well done!

[Grown2Hate]

6. I didn't catch that, but I LOVE George Takei!

He's a fantastic interview and he's a great activist on many fronts.

[JDPriestly]

2. I suppose we are going to see a lot of boilerplate posts like this on DU.

The young people I was registering Bernie voters with today are not attached to the Democratic Party and feel that Hillary cannot be trusted and is a phony.

They are not going to vote for Hillary. That's the way it is.

[Grown2Hate]

4. I can't speak for them, but I do not doubt they exist; in GREAT numbers.

I can only speak for me and how I feel. But I appreciate why they won't be as enthusiastic as I am (if voting at all).

I can only speak to my experience and what I have to say. And offer my input as a more veteran voter. That's all.

[JDPriestly]

7. I'm a veteran voter of the veteran voters.

We shall see whether Hillary picks up many of the Bernie supporters. There will be a lot of supposed Bernie supporters proclaiming their switch to Hillary. Whether they ever really were Bernie supporters will be anyone's guess. Did you watch the Seymour Hersh video posted today or recently on the Bin Laden matter? It's excellent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017363204

You might like it if you are a veteran voter.

[Grown2Hate]

10. I am a big fan of Thom Hartmann AND Seymour Hersh.

And that's a fascinating piece! Thank you. I hadn't seen it yet, and it's more insight than I'd anticipated.

While I don't appreciate the implication that I was never a Bernie supporter, honestly, I don't blame you. It ultimately doesn't matter what anyone thinks. I'm STILL a Bernie supporter and hold out some hope that we win the nomination. I am VASTLY more aligned with his platform than any other Democrat in my lifetime.

I'm simply saying that I'll do whatever I can to make sure we don't move BACKWARDS from what little progress we've made (and we can't deny that we've made at LEAST some social progress, if not economic).

[Unicorn]

9. I don't even trust her to nominate a liberal to the Supreme court.

She's come to liberal issues decades late and generally only when campaigning. I don't think my values are something she holds.

[stonecutter357]

3. K&R!

[Petrushka]

5. The math --->

https://johnlaurits.com/2016/04/28/this-is-what-will-happen-at-the-democratic-convention/

[Live and Learn]

8. Your decision is yours but if you vote for her and she wins you WILL share a responsibility for what

occurs under her administration. I will not. I learned from the last Clinton administration.

And those that supported her during the primary will be responsible if she loses the GE.

So either way supporting her, pretty much makes one guilty of participating in our downfall.

Me, I am going to take violin lessons.

[Grown2Hate]

11. I happen to think that I'm voting for the "brakes" more so than if I voted for Trump

(to extend my earlier analogy). And I already voted for Bernie in AZ; I did what I could. I don't begrudge your opinion; simply stating mine.

[Live and Learn]

14. Who said anything about voting for Trump?

I wouldn't want that responsibility either. I will not vote for either one.

I have and continue to do my part to prevent either one (or any of the other Republicans) from taking office. I have donated every bit I could and worked very hard to do so (unpaid).

Bernie and his supporters have done an amazing job and have come very close to salvaging this country despite great odds. It is amazing that we ever got within hope. The hope may be fading but it is not gone (hope never really disappears).

Neither Bernie, nor the majority of his supporters, will ever quit fighting for the future of our country and future generations no matter how dim the prospects.

In fact, I am sure others will join us, once they see the truth of what they get from anyone else in office. Will it be too late? Probably but I will fan the flame of hope no matter how slim.

[Bohunk68]

28. YESSSSSSSSSSS

Just exactly! I'm also tired of the "lesser of two evils" thing. I want to be honest with myself and my convictions. I don't have to vote next to a name, but can write in a name. And at the same time, support with my vote those down-ticket offices that I can be comfortable with. Or, just not vote for that office.

[dr60omg]

53. If Sanders does not win or run as a third party candidate

that is exactly what I will do ... help the most progressive candidates on down ballot tickets and write in a name or sanders name because I will not vote for her.

[thucythucy]

54. The problem with "the lesser of two evils thing"

is that it's generally correct. The lesser of two evils is, by definition, less evil. In any case, we've seen what happens when people succumb to that sort of thinking.

For instance, I was told by progressives in 1980 that Carter vs. Reagan was a "lesser of two evils" election. They ranked on Carter because he reinstituted registration for the draft, increased defense spending, etc. So after Kennedy lost the primaries, a lot of progressives I knew decided to sit 1980 out. "We'll win in '84 with a REAL progressive. We'll build a progressive third party as an alternative." Nope, didn't happen.

Instead, Reagan turned out to be an unmitigated disaster for progressives pretty much across the board. Just to cite two examples:

Carter saw the Camp David accords as step one of a comprehensive Mideast peace plan. The next step was a two state solution negotiated with the Palestinians. This was before there were massive Israeli settlements on the West Bank, before the first Intifada. Reagan ditched the process entirely. Who knows what the world would look like today if Carter had had another four years to work on the problem.

Carter told us we had to wean ourselves off fossil fuels. He was pushing research in solar and geo-thermal. He had the White House rigged for solar to demonstrate the potential. Reagan--on his first day in office--had those panels ripped off the White House roof.

In 2000 I was told by progressives that there was no difference between Bush II and Gore, that Gore was a "faux environmentalist" (according to Ralph Nader). "Maybe Bush will win in 2000, but we'll build a progressive third party and win in 2004." Or 2008. Or 2012... Again, that turned out to be an illusion.

And Bush II was also a disaster, right? Turns out there WAS a lot of difference between Bush II and Gore. For instance, I doubt Gore would have ignored a memo from the CIA titled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the US." Gore opposed the Iraq invasion. Gore has spent years trying to get people to wake up to global warming. If Gore had received enough votes to make the theft of the 2000 election impossible, if he'd had four or eight years, I doubt we'd have seen 9-11, Patriot Act, Iraq invasion, etc. etc.

I've heard it all before, and now I'm hearing it again. Really sad.

I voted for Bernie in my primary, but there's no way in Hell I'm going to sit out the GE, or indulge in some useless symbolic protest, and thereby help Trump win the White House.

Your vote is your own, to do with as you please. But when I read posts like yours I can't help but think history is, once again, repeating itself.

[northernsouthern]

12. Why do "Bernie" supporters suddenly need to post this?

This is like the third today. I am a bit suspicious of touting the Supreme Court pick of Obama, it is not a good one, and it is more corruption. As for the Republicans, it looks like they may be fine with Trump, so our party may be the one breaking apart. Also why would you be called Third-way if you are a Bernie supporter? That is the name for the prorepublican policy arm of the democrats.

[moriah]

15. Don't eat your own, hon.

It could be for many reasons. Seeing math. Being pragmatic. Knowing that until we get ranked choice voting, we're stuck in a two partu system.

But I wouldn't attack the OP by suggesting he never supported Bernie at all.

[northernsouthern]

16. It is not that, I have posted on my vote for Hillary too.

I posted it here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511862662

[moriah]

17. Okay, sorry if I offended you.

I just saw quotes on Bernie in what you said, and it seemed like it was suggesting the OP wasn't genuine.

Much love and peace to you.

[northernsouthern]

18. I thought he seemed a little fake...

..because of many of the reasons I stated in the post I linked you, it may help you to read it too.

[moriah]

19. He's been here since 2004, if you didn't look at his profile.

Joining DU in a heated primary, as you can tell I know from my own profile, is a bit of a trial by fire. I'm not pointing out his seniority to attack you for being new.

But if he's been here through Kerry and Dean, Hillary and Obama, Obama's re-election, and is not tombstoned... I'm pretty sure his opinions are his own, and legitimate.

[northernsouthern]

20. That has nothing to do with it.

If he was a Bernie supporters since 2004 that would mean something, but he easily could have been a Hillary supporter all along and is making false claims, I however state very clearly in my other post why I am changing my vote. Perhaps you shoudl read it before you accuse me...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511862662

[moriah]

23. I again apologize if it seemed like I was accusing you of anything.

But let me see if I can explain my views, too.

I started out as a Hillary supporter in 2008. I didn't have any real objections to Obama besides my concerns about him being a little new in politics. It wasn't that I didn't believe fresh blood was good, or that if he was elected he wouldn't be capable... but I felt Hillary had more experience in the system in general. True, not all in elected office. But still, I was wanting whatever would get us a Blue in the White House, and believed Hillary had that experience. (Obama's great choice of Biden to balance out the experience for the total ticket overcame any objections I had, and McCain's idiotic gambit to choose Palin in response showed how many people thought Hillary supporters really were voting with their ovaries... and how very, very wrong they were.)

Still, I became attached to my candidate. I criticized her when she did stupid things, but still believed in her. I was proud that despite personally thinking, as the math was getting bad for her and McCain was solidifying his message that perhaps she should have conceded sooner, when she did fully rally around Obama and put all the weight of the people she put together, her own fame, and Bill's charisma, into getting Obama elected. I loved how at the Convention she stopped the roll call in New York to propose that Obama be declared the nominee (still letting Hawaii and Illinois proudly state their votes for Obama, as they deserved). I worked my ass off for Obama, proudly.

This time, I was actually much happier with the two candidates we had. I like Bernie's zeal, his passion, and believe he is a man of integrity. I also am not entirely sure if he would have run if there hadn't been a movement to draft him because we needed more viable left candidates. He might have preferred to stay in the Senate. Part of thev exception in the DU Terms of Service allowing advocacy of more Progressives even if they aren't officially Democrats -- that they at least can't be real spoilers for viable Democratic nominees -- was designed with Bernie in mind. The DSCC admitted he was both progressive, popular, and that he was working for the goals of the Democratic Party when they offered to help him run in the Senate, still as an Independent. I didn't like him bowing to the Independents in VT when background checks were an issue in the House, but that's small potatoes really. It's not like Hillary didn't do the same, as NY's senator, during the War on Terror. There was no doubt he had experience.

And in January, looking at DU and DK, I didn't expect Hillary to win this time either. I still chose her, because I felt her message was broader and she, in my opinion, had a better outlook on the reality of how to finally get real, affordable care (and even single payer) -- few have spoken about the provision in the ACA that could let Colorado "pilot" single payer if their ballot initiative passes this year. I still want to see a good proposal on how to fix the family glitch in the ACA, but as I heard her speak about states being the "laboratories of our Democracy", I became convinced that she was quite aware of the potential impact if Colorado makes it work.

But while I cast my vote on Super Tuesday, and phonebanked for her in Southern states where my accent made it easier... I wasn't expecting her to win. Then I had my snkle surgery on March 15th, so didn't even do phonebanking. So I guess I wasn't really as invested this time.

But I also stayed away because it really did seem to just be ugly as heck -- my candidate was being attacked even worse than in 2008, and not even for her views, just a perception of her that I felt was untrue and unfair, bht didn't have the energy to constantly defend. I was driven crazy about how liberals couldn't see that even if throwing dollar bills at a candidate might be something you would do to a male candidate you felt was a sellout, how the fact she *was* a woman msde it look really bad -- I don't want to see any woman called a whore. Still, what could I say without seeming hypersensitive, even if it bothered me? So I just said little, if anything.

Now.... all I want is for us to work together. Maybe it's too soon.

------

But I am truly appalled at what our "Community Standards" regarding civility have devolved to, in comparison to when we first started the jury process, Hosts, and MIR. I don't care who you support or what your opinions are, and I will support your right to say them, but it really IS possible to debate issues without getting personal about the users.. which includes publicly questioning their integrity.

In fact, the rule for a number of years was that even if it was a truly obvious troll being obvious (Ron Paul Bots in 2012) that the only appropriate response was to say "Welcome to DU! Enjoy your stay..." and hit the alert button, or email a member of MIRT. Because all new posters, yourself included, deserved the benefit of the doubt publicly.

I'm sorry if people questioning your integrity has perhaps led you to feel that's a normal part of DU, but it's actually a very recent devolution.

I wish you well. Take care of yourself.

[northernsouthern]

24. Thanks for the post.

You put some time in to that, I still feel like you did not take the time to read mine though. Also as a Hillary supporter from the south, how did you get over the racist attacks she did against Obama? Many people that care about racism were turn off by that. I am less concerned about it because it doesn't affect me and she is only using it at a tool to get power. I think that she will try and help minorities when she gets the time if she is elected. Bernie on the other-hand, not sure if he cares enough about minority groups to even use them to help him win. He is just a white male though it is not like he knows what it is like to be a minority.

[moriah]

26. Surely that last line is sarcasm, right?

Yes, I did read yours. I am sorry if yw feel like I didn't address it fully.

But as much as I dislike what I call "-trying to compete in the Oppression Olympics" -- arguing about which groups have been treated worse, if Senatorr Sanders hsd won he would be our first Jewish President.

[northernsouthern]

34. Did you watch the video I linked though?

That is what changed my mind, the other things were more of an annoyance.

[Grown2Hate]

35. If there is a way to see my oldest posts, I was never a Hillary supporter. I supported Obama in 08.

I also supported Bernie all along this primary (financially and otherwise). I STILL hope he finds a way to pull it off, to be honest. And why did I feel the need to post that last night? I like to try and pull people together during primary season (my older posts would reflect that too; this season and in 08). I honestly just sort of "lurk" and post very infrequently (thus the post count in what... 12 years?). So I, very honestly, wasn't aware of "all of these other" posts about "Bernie" supporters saying they'll vote for Hillary.

I'm not trying to demean what we've accomplished this primary season. And it's fine if you don't think I was ever a real Bernie supporter. People are going to think what they want. Frankly? I was drunk last night and felt like posting something unifying. Doesn't always come across right or go over well here; I get that. I have been here a while, after all.

It's all love. You carry on the fight (as will I); I just wanted to make it clear I'm not letting Trump in no matter WHAT I have to do. That's all. Thanks for reading/listening.

[northernsouthern]

45. Thanks to HRC...

I really don't trust any posts any more. I read people's message history, but that Correct the Record stuff is some dark stuff. The current thing that is being done is they appear to be doubling down on the "I used to be a Bernie Supporter" narratives with people "switching over". It is the same thing they did with the I used to be a socialist op eds that were on many news sites. I understand people switching over, I do not have an issue with that, but I do not like vote shaming, it has an air of preachiness and that the person somehow knows better. I think the thing that makes it even worse to me is that many of us have been posting about the unfairness in this election cycle, the tricks, the cheating, the corruption, the lies, the underhanded tactics, etc that the HRC camp has been employing and now we are being told we should switch over to a person that uses some of the worst election tactics we have seen in a long while even from the presidential front runners (I don't recall Mitt being as underhanded as Hillary). Some of us are trying to fight until there is no fight left, we are not going to give in until it is over, and we can not support someone as morally corrupt as Hillary has become.

So basically everyone should vote for who they believe in and stop trying to co-opt our votes using shame, subterfuge, or any other tactic.

[Grown2Hate]

67. I can see what you mean. And I hope I didn't come across that way. I only want to correct

one thing in your statement: there is no "switching over" in my post. I always have and always will be FAR left of the current Democratic party. Politicians like Bernie will ALWAYS appeal to me more than DLC types. I voted for Bernie. I convinced friends/family here in AZ and CT to vote for him. And I STILL want him to win the nomination. The clumsy part of my title was not clarifying IF HRC wins the nomination. If he's not on the ballot in November (IF), I don't have much of an option; that's all I'm saying. I'm hardly "endorsing" HRC, especially for the primary states still voting.

And I'm just articulating why I feel that way; I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote against their conscience. I 100% get why a lot of people will stay home in November (hell, if it's Trump vs. Clinton, I think we'll see RECORD low turnout). And I can't blame them. I was just throwing my 2 cents out there, and apparently I shouldn't have? haha

If ANYONE took it as a "vote shaming" thing, I apologize; certainly wasn't intended as that.

[northernsouthern]

71. You weren't vote shaming...

...I was talking about the others that say you have to vote for our candidate or else you are Hitler's evil bastard twin's evil doppelganger (that is mega evil). The only thing I was not sure about on your post was your like about the "Third way", was not sure what that was about...also not a big fan of Obama's choice.

[moriah]

13. I truly am sorry you have felt dismissed and ignored by DU and the party.

I look forward to working together to actually make our country better than it would be if we fractured.

But I truly do apologize it if I have said anything you've read that made you feel that way, and I regret the actions of others who may support my candidate but aren't behaving anything as close to as gracefully as Hillary or Bernie.

[Grown2Hate]

39. I don't think it was you? Something someone wrote yesterday about "sexist Bernie Bros"

voting for Hillary if Warren was the VP must have set me off or something. I hardly remember. haha

It's comical to me that my post was taken by some as being part of an orchestrated move to "throw Bernie supporters down the Hillary chute" or some such. LoL It was ACTUALLY more of a drunken rant to say, "I fucking get it; Hillary is probably the nominee; I'll vote for her; quit insulting me while we're at it and kicking me while I'm down." It's alright though; It's all love. Putting away the Jameson for now

[moriah]

41. That one wasn't me, but my statement stands...

I regret that people who support my candidate aren't being as graceful or gracious as either of our two candidates.

No stress, we all vent. I am not sure if you saw my defense of your post, either. But I got it, I did. I don't think Hillary supporters gloating OR Bernie supporters threatening to let it all "bern" are productive. But as a Hillary supporter, it's my job to stomp on that gloating when I see it and remind people that our candidate was a gracious loser in 08, ae can be gracious winners in 16.

Or, even better, agree that this Primary wasn't a "win" or "loss", but a process... and work with people to make the next time better, more Democratic, and more civil.

Hugs to you.

[Grown2Hate]

44. Hugs. :) I did see your defense. I appreciated it! NT

[dreamnightwind]

21. I think you're missing something

What you're describing is exactly what got us in this mess, and how we never break free from it.

I think we're on a long slide towards corporate fascism and irreversible environmental destruction while greedy people fill their pockets working with and enabling those who are destructively plundering.

The operating analogy, to me, is a rip tide. The corporate flow is extremely powerful and controlling both parties. The Republican party, most of it anyway, is fine with this, go with the flow, it's free enterprise and will lift all boats. Truth is, only those in yachts are ok, the rest of us are sink or swim.

Members of the Democratic Party who don't like the whole slide into endless wars and environmental destruction, to me, are swimmers caught in the rip tide, and fighting against it to swim back to shore. They're losing this fight, but they're being pulled out to sea a little slower than those who don't fight the tide.

The way to beat a riptide is to stop fighting it, instead swimming sideways, essentially changing the entire context of the struggle so that you are swimming in a different context. Once you swim sideways far enough to escape the rip, everything is possible again, you have escaped the tractor beam of fascism and your efforts will propel you the direction you are trying to go.

I think we have to define, absolutely no compromise, that we're working, politically, in contexts that refuse corporate money. We can work on our party to be that context, to me that is great work but probably futile. We can work in other ways too, to create new vehicles for ending this riptide. Those are the interesting things happening right now. Vote however you want, but I'd advise looking into other ways to change things rather than just slowing down the corporate fascist rip-tide.

[Joob]

22. This. Nt

[moriah]

25. Would you include a strong effort to get ranked choice voting in the US...

... as something we should be advocating for?

It truly sucks that without it, we are locked into a two party system, something our Founding Fathers criticized roundly. When parties did end up evolving despite that, and the Electoral College process at that time made the Electors have to vote strategically instead of their conscience, it got changed.

Now, I feel the only real way to break the two-party system is ranked choice voting. If people who don't want the GOP but would like to see the Democratic Party move left could realistically vote for candidates like Nader or Jill Stein, to show their conscience, but put the Democratic Nominee second, even if the first few elections would likely still be won by one of the two major parties, just seeing how many Democrats would rather have a more Progressive candidate will make the party move left.

And on the other side, it would truly fracture the GOP between social and fiscal conservatives. They have been moving right on social issues to appease a segment of their electorate that, despite the reproductive capacity of the Quiverfull movement, is diminishing. Ranked choice voting would be an absolute disaster for them.

But that's been my opinion for decades.

[Grown2Hate]

36. Frankly, I don't disagree with the sentiment. My problem is, what is my choice then if Bernie can't

pull it off (or whomever my candidate of choice is in any upcoming election)? Just not vote? I guess I can't do that either.

I do like your analogy better than mine, though. I just hope SOMEONE can get at least a left LEANING Justice on the Supreme Court to turn back Citizen's United. That would work to undo SOME of the damage. And although that MIGHT not happen even with Hillary, that sure as HELL isn't happening, EVER, under Trump or Cruz (or pick any other Repub asshole). And then we're not looking at a riptide; we're looking at a TSUNAMI. Just my two cents, though. Love the post.

[dreamnightwind]

42. Thanks

I'd expect corporatist justices from Hillary, not the types who would overturn Citizen's United, or refute money as protected political speech. They will probably lean left on civil rights issues (things that don't cost corporations money). Just my opinion, not based on a whole lot.

I'd say your other choice is to swim sideways, explore the many things that are developing right now, many people are trying to figure out how best to proceed to break free from the false choices we are given. All these Bernie supporters aren't just in this for Bernie, we're in this to bring about real change. With runaway climate change, our survival as a species literally depends on it. Republicans are no longer the enemy, the owners of both parties are.

[My Good Babushka]

27. Hobson's Choice Democracy

Though I believe Clinton is clearly the choice in the general election for social, domestic issues, she is a proponent for arms proliferation and has a record of arming factions in rogue states to fight proxy wars, and I wonder if she will bring the nation closer to nuclear war than the isolationist conservatives. She believes herself to be more competent on foreign policy than she is. This election year has me over a barrel. I don't know what I'll do.

It's a Hobson's Choice of a democracy. One candidate, take it or leave it. Very hard to reconcile with the ideal of a freely elected President.

[Surya Gayatri]

29. You, dear sir/madam, are one of the esteemed adults in the primary playroom...

"That is my ideal situation; but if that person isn't available to vote for in the GE, I'm going to be diplomatic and vote for our best option."

Such is the nature of participatory democracy.

[azurnoir]

47. love your Obama gif :)

[djean111]

30. Wow! Another one! Almost looks orchestrated!

It is like they had a sale at Bellwethers'R'Us! All these Bellwethers For Hillary, wandering around DU, hoping to snag a few Bernie supporters and turn them into Hillary sheep.

Really think that Bernie's supporters are going to be easily (and verbosely) guided into the Hillary chute? Which was said to be located somewhere on the left, then in the center, and now is firmly, in-your-face-fuck-you on the right.

Can't vote for a fucking ENTHUSIAST for war and fracking and cluster bombs and Wall Street and Third Way and means-testing of Social Security and increased H-1B visas and bloody regime changes and opposition to Single Payer.

Not going to call you "Third Way" or something - it is Hillary who is Third Way. You are just another voter. I don't care, really.

The New Democrats are not even pretending to try to hit the brakes, you know - they are just driven by money instead of ideology.

The United States is still going to be going off the cliff - there just be a bunch of rich Democrats helping the GOP to push it, secure in the knowledge that they got theirs.

Cannot do it. But I can just full ignore this stuff, and have a nice day!

[Dawgs]

31. ^^^^THIS^^^^

[Grown2Hate]

37. Orchestrated? LoL I was drunk and hadn't been on DU in days. I wasn't aware of "all of these

other" posts. But, skimming now, I can see why you might think that, and don't blame you. I assure you it's not. I'm just a disappointed, not extraordinarily hopeful Bernie supporter, believe it or not.

Not trying to lead anyone into a "chute" or "ladder" or anything else. Drunk, tired, and felt like posting after watching some Nightly Show rerun. You have a nice day, too. And a nice weekend.

[djean111]

50. As someone else pointed out - you posted the same exact OP in February.

Not any more compelling now, you know.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511332513

[Grown2Hate]

58. So... I'm orchestrating with myself? And the REAL long con is that I "posed" as

an Obama supporter in 2008 to make it even more convincing that I would vote for Hillary in 2016 (again, if I absolutely HAVE to)?

I guess I'm more clever than I thought. I'm just sad that I've been "exposed"...

[djean111]

62. Now you are just inept and boring. 'bye!

[Grown2Hate]

65. So boring that you're still responding? Inept, maybe. haha

[beedle]

32. Personally I think that:

1 - Hillary is a poor candidate in terms of policies. She is a Republican and will work to enact republican policies no matter what lies she spews in the primaries and/or general elections. And seeing as she is a 'Democratic' icon, sh will have the 'Democratic Cred' needed to have 3rd way sheep make excuses for her as she hands more and more of the people's hard earned wealth to the 1%.

2 - Hillary is a poor candidate in terms of electability as well. Bill Clinton would be the only other person on this planet that could rally right wingers against them more than Hillary. Not to mention the possibility of more scandals (real or imagined) that can further hurt her in the GE.

3 - Party Unity: Asking everyone to vote for Hillary for 'party unity', or to at least prevent the disaster that would be a Republican run government is an overblown scare tactic IMO. Yes, the Republicans are worst governors than Democrats, but let's look back at the history of Dem vs Repub governments and I think it's pretty clear to see that the Republicans are never as bad as they are expected to be, and the Democrats are never as good as they are expected to be. There have been many times when it was assumed that as soon as the Republicans gained power that they would immediately get to work enacting highly popular Republican policies ... anti-abortion laws, reverse DADT, get rid of the EPA, etc, but in every case we learned that Republicans were only interested in using right wing issues as wedge issues, they were never going to 'kill the golden geese' of wedge issues.

Yes, a Republican government will slow progress compared to a Democratic government, but that's 'no great shakes' as Democratic governments, like Republican government never rule the way they campaign.

Obama's big progressive credentials, his greatest progressive 'accomplishments' were that he simply did nothing and let the popular will of the people do the work for him. At best he stayed out of the way, but even the great progressive Obama many times stood as a barrier to progress, afraid to move ahead in fear that putting too much of his political capital on the line would harm his ability to use it in the future, which it turns out he never actually used, even now, with all the 'political capital' he has saved up, with his administration coming to a close, he still refuses to use any of it on what is suppose to be the most important issue of our time, the SCOTUS appointment .. he is nominating someone whose stance on the important issues of money in politics, woman's right to privacy, for example are not all that clear and obvious.

But what about minority rights? Immigrants? Women? Please, there's nothing happening to forward those rights that has anything to do with the government in office. The Democrats stood by and let the people do all the work, and when there were any successes the politicians jumped in to take credit. Activism, court cases, ballot initiatives, boycotts, etc were what brought about these changes, not the politicians. Best case, the Democrats are a bit better at staying out of the way, but only slightly better (there's a whole other civilized world out there, the USA being notable only in how slow it came to giving minorities, immigrants, women, gays, etc equal rights .. under 8 years of a Democratic government.)

Yes, a Republican government is not a great thing to look forward to, and no I am not someone who thinks that electing one will cause such an upheaval of social and civil regression that it will force America to march in the streets in order to kick out the Republicans ... what I think this election should be about is tearing down and rebuilding the Democratic party (or destroying it and replacing it with a real party of the left.) Create a party that actually allows politicians that align with the will of the people to be elected, instead of allowing elites and corporations to purchase so-called 'Democratic' representatives.

Hillary Clinton is the ultimate symbol of all that is wrong with the Democratic party. The Democratic party is at the very end of it's useful life ... the lettuce in the vegetable crisper has turned all green and brown ... it no longer has any useful purpose other than as compost .. time to throw it out.

[Fumesucker]

38. Nicely said..

[dreamnightwind]

43. Excellent post

I especially like the point you made in #1, often overlooked. A corporatist Democrat is a very dangerous thing. The people (Democrats at least) assume they are on the side of the people, since they're Democrats, and they push policies through that we would more vigorously oppose if a Republican was pushing them. This is a huge and too little understood problem.

I was really hoping that Bernie would be able to save the party from its corporate owners, but the party doubled down by pulling every possible string to elect Hillary. If not Hillary, they would have found some other corporatist to install.

This effort looks interesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511865833

Bernie Sanders’ Staffers Launch A Brand New Congress to enact Bernie's program

https://brandnewcongress.org/

There are a lot of new party rumblings too. That's a tough road, it's all setup for two parties, but we'll see, there's a lot of momentum right now for real reform and to build the institutions we need to achieve it.

[azurnoir]

46. Thank you fantastic post

[aikoaiko]

33. Lesser of two evils is a rationale.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

40. True. But, it's still the lesser of two evils.

Probably better than the greater of two evils.

Probably.

[azurnoir]

48. Hillary needs 'Bernie' supporters like you

[azurnoir]

49. you're such a Bernie supporter-you posted the same thing last February

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511332513

[Grown2Hate]

61. OOH, ya got me! LOL Did you READ it? It's a pretty clear articulation of why Bernie

is the BETTER CANDIDATE IN A THOUSAND WAYS. I'm basically saying (really, in both cases), "I WANT BERNIE AS THE NOMINEE, 100%. But I'll be FUCKING GODDAMNED if I'm going to allow Scalia 2.0 on the Supreme Court IF HE DOESN'T WIN THE NOMINATION". Is that more clear? I'm not ENDORSING Hillary... I'm saying what I will do if presented with a less than ideal option. WHAT I WILL DO. NOT WHAT YOU SHOULD DO.

YOU, and anyone else, can do whatever the fuck you want with your vote in November. You know what ELSE I posted on FB in February? I picture of me with my early AZ ballot, proudly having voted for Bernie (early ballot, thankfully, with our horribly-run primary election here; with my work schedule, I didn't have 8 hours to waste in line). So shove the snarky air quotes around "Bernie supporter" and kindly set me to ignore.

[Squinch]

51. I'd say prepare to be thrown under the bus, but I see I am late to the party.

Say hi to Rep. Lewis, Duarte, Liz Warren, the Pope and everyone else under there!

[tularetom]

52. You have to live with yourself

You seem almost desperate to justify your actions.

Are you trying to convince us? Or yourself?

[djean111]

55. Posted the same exact crap in February. n/t

[Grown2Hate]

57. Right. Both UNITY posts. Both VEHEMENTLY supporting Bernie, and articulating WHY,

over HRC. Did you bother to read past the title? Probably not. That's fine though. I can live with myself. Do whatever the fuck you want to do; it doesn't bother me.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Nothing posted on DU is going to affect the GE results one way or another. It's just a forum to flesh ideas out, point/counterpoint discussions, to foster further DISCUSSION on said ideas.

Both were POSITIVE threads, saying that I will suck it up and do what I FEEL is the right thing to do in a less than ideal scenario. I'll do EVERY FUCKING THING in my power to make sure we don't replace Scalia with fucking Scalia 2.0. Fucking ignore me if you don't like it.

[djean111]

64. Done!

[shanti]

69. what makes you think

that hillary wouldn't nominate someone like scalia?

[Grown2Hate]

70. Common sense? Here's the thing:

It's LIKELY that she'd nominate someone center-right on corporate power and center-left on social issues. I won't deny that (NOT ideal for me, which is why I donated to and voted for Bernie).

However, it's 100% certain that Cruz/Trump/Ryan would nominate someone extreme right on fiscal/corporate issues AND social issues, dragging us back on LGBTIQ rights, women's rights (even worse than they already are right now), minority rights, drug policy, etc.

Again, it's playing my best hand, even if that hand is a pair of 2's and a 7. I'd rather play that than fold (if it turns out that I have no other choice).

[Armstead]

56. Your correct -- Except I thinks we also need to keep pushing to change direction and put on the gas

And pushing for change through the election and not just let stale tapioca win without challenge

[Grown2Hate]

60. 100% agree. And, again (and I LOVE that I have to use this caveat every time), I

hold out hope that Bernie finds a way to win the nomination in 2016. However, worst case, he has WOKEN people up, and the movement can only gain momentum if we keep the pressure on, especially with the youngest generation that is starting to see things they way they are. I love Bernie for that.

[PowerToThePeople]

59. Cool story bro.

Primary is not even over yet.

[Grown2Hate]

63. Do you interpret this as if I will write Hillary in, even if Bernie wins the

nomination? LoL IF she wins the nomination. IF. (Is there a way to make this IF any bigger?)

I already voted for Bernie in AZ, donated over $200.00 (sorry, I've got a lot of CC debt), and convinced every friend I have in AZ and CT to do the same (vote for Bernie); I've done what I can do.

[PowerToThePeople]

66. I have donated about the same

I do 25$ a month to Bernie and don't have any disposable income either.

Maybe it was just that your post came off to me as a sign of surrender to HRC campaign, prior to the convention. It may have rubbed me wrong.

No personal beef with you, searched your post history and nothing came out that would lead me to think you were a right wing Dem playing the part of "Bernie supporter now votes Hillary."

[Grown2Hate]

68. Thank you, and I apologize that it even came across that way. If I could make the OP title

longer, it would have concluded with, "If I ABSOLUTELY have to". haha No more drunk posting from me, I promise.