If a democratic candidate covets Republicans.

[Joe the Revelator]

Has policies that are supported by republicans.

Gets money from republican donors.

Is getting endorsed by republicans.

Runs is the same circles as republicans.

Has republican advisors and patrons.


At what point does this nominee stop being a Democrat?

I argue that we are a party without a candidate.

[silvershadow]

1. I agree with everything but the last line. We have a great candidate, in the mold of

the tradition of 80 years worth of FDR Democrats.

[Joe the Revelator]

3. That should be a given. Bernie earned his (D) by doing the exact opposite of what I'm outlining

Which is what the problem ends up being.

[pdsimdars]

19. Well, then it is puzzling why you said we're a party WITHOUT a candidate?

[JaneyVee]

22. Operation Chaos 2016 isnt funding Hillary. Theyre funding Bernie.

[riversedge]

44. That is true.

[ViseGrip]

52. Exactly, we have the greatest candidate ever, our own FDR!

How stupid to throw away the only chance in ALL OF OUR LIFETIMES!

[bkkyosemite]

5. Wait I have to take my blood pressure first.

[Tarc]

4. Perhaps we just do a find-and-replace of "republican" to "communist"

and flip that script.

Isn't hyperbole grand?

[bkkyosemite]

6. He hasn't with the Republicans she has with their

arm wrapped around her shoulder around her waist and hugging her.

[Tarc]

11. Oh noes! Hillary touched a Republican!

I wonder if you have the capacity for self-realization of how alike you are to Fox News at the moment . They frequently delighted in these visual character assassination-style guilt-by-associations, e.g. "Obama visiting a madrasa so he must be a secret Muslim", and so on.

This is really all you have left in the deck? No new cards to play?

[riversedge]

45. Like Bernie--they rehash 40 yr old stuff.

[Joe the Revelator]

7. Policies matter.

Her policies are even more tenable to mainstream republicans, then crazy trump is. That says a lot.

[SFnomad]

10. When mainstream Republicans realize that tRump is so crazy

that Secretary Clinton is the better alternative. What does it say about BS cheerleaders that can't see the same thing?

[Tarc]

13. Her polices are obviously tenable to most Democratic voters

Seeing how your man kinda...lost.

[Joe the Revelator]

14. I don't agree with your premise, I believe there are enough low info voters who let...

rush convince them that Hillary is Paul Wellstone in a pantsuit, but the fact remains, those of us who actually pay attention, and care about this party, know that she is nothing more than a panderer who will do anything, including running to the right, if it helps her get elected.

[Tarc]

18. Patronizing sexism + a veiled allusion to Stockholm Syndrome in A-As

Firing on all cylinders there...

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

28. Alert results

On Sun May 8, 2016, 10:03 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I don't agree with your premise, I believe there are enough low info voters who let...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1921646

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

According to this person Hillary supporters are just dump Rush Limbaugh fans.

Disgusting

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun May 8, 2016, 10:07 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree he is walking a thin line. But he said "enough low info voters," not that all fall in that category.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Not what Joe said, at all.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's just an opinion, not an attack. Not worth an alert.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: One of the worst alerts in DU history.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: That is not what the post said. So I can't take alert seriously.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[riversedge]

46. Dissing voters is a stupid thing to do. Shame on you.

[Armstead]

23. Tenable and "enthusiastically supported" are two different things

In addition to the 40 percent who voted for Sanders, there are many who don't much like Clinton or agree with her, but voterd for her for "pragmatic" reasons.

in my own sfairly diverse circle of acquaintances, I know a number of people who admit they much prefer Sanders positions and values and goals, but support Clinton because of the "electability" meme and/or because she is female.

Expanding that out, means that her support is not all that wide in terms of positions.

Your candidate might kinda win because of personality politics and hr wealthy political machine -- but this is much bigger than that. And in looking to the few the democratic party as an institution ought to take heed.

[cantbeserious]

8. What Does It Say About A Country When Political Parties Curry Favor From All But Citizens

eom

[SidDithers]

9. If opponents of a Democratic candidate sound like Republicans...

use the same attacks as Republicans

use the same sources as Republicans

use the same language as Republicans

feel the same hate as Republicans

at what point does it become clear that they're doing the work of Republicans?



Sid

[Joe the Revelator]

12. Cute, really, but you're trying to compere supporters of a candidate to actual high level political

strategy in a Presidential race.

[Hortensis]

57. Nope. Actually, it makes me wonder how many

who behave like Republicans and attack Democrats, especially constantly and at almost fanatical levels, like Republicans will be voting for Republicans. We know that in 2008 many who behaved like Republicans ended up voting Republican. Hardly required any shift at all.

[Dragonfli]

15. It becomes clear every time I read your posts, except your party favorite is the Tories

Same conservative crap different country.

[betsuni]

16. And accuse Democrats of being Republicans.

[eridani]

17. Of course. All the Republicans I know support single payer health care.

And they hate "trade" agreements and fracking, too.

[JaneyVee]

21. Thread win.

[Metric System]

26. BRAVO!

[JoePhilly]

31. Exactly.

[PufPuf23]

36. Convenient to ignore that folks on the left do not use

the same attacks, sources, and language as Republicans and most of their opinion is from specific acts and statements by Hillary Clinton post 2000.

Also convenient to ignore that the policies championed by Hillary Clinton look amazingly like GOP policy from the 1960s through the 1980s except for cultural to those of us that were there and paying attention at the time.

Nixon was a far better environmental and economic POTUS than projected by Hillary Clinton as POTUS.

Under Nixon we got the EPA, NEPA, CWA, MMPA, SDA, ESA, (plus OSHA).

Six good things Richard Nixon did for the environment:

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/politics/photos/six-good-things-richard-nixon-did-for-the-environment/strong-eco

Hillary Clinton is pro-fracking albeit somewhat wobbly while in campaign mode. Most fracking is done under exceptions from NEPA.

Nixon successfully used Keynesian methods regards to the economy (price controls, gas rationing, strengthened SS and welfare, privatization of public assets and programs not at risk) that there is little likelihood of use under Clinton as POTUS.

Hillary Clinton is even pals with Henry Kissinger.

[vintx]

62. So you're not talking about the dems defending Welfare Reform, then?

The ones studiously ignoring anything her Kissingeresque record with respect to Honduras?

As well as ignoring her labor-exploiting efforts in Haiti?

Cause those are Hillary supporters.

[JaneyVee]

20. From the crowd that uses FOX News, Hot Air, and Judicial Watch as sources.

[baldguy]

24. So, when Sanders courts Trump supporters, at what point does he stop being a Democrat?

[Human101948]

27. What Trump policy positions has Bernie adopted?

Bernie's point is that there are many who are unhappy with the status quo and are interested in what Bernie has to say about reining in banks and corporations and addressing wealth inequality.

If he were trumpeting racism, sexism and xsenophobia you would have a legitimate point. That's is not the case.

[baldguy]

29. Aside from opposing the IWR? Or being anti-establishment?

Or being just generally opposed to the Democratic Party?

[Human101948]

35. What are you talking about?

In 2002, Donald Trump Said He Supported Invading Iraq

For months, Donald Trump has claimed that he opposed the Iraq War before the invasion began — as an example of his great judgment on foreign policy issues.
But in a 2002 interview with Howard Stern, Donald Trump said he supported an Iraq invasion.
In the interview, which took place on Sept. 11, 2002, Stern asked Trump directly if he was for invading Iraq.
“Yeah, I guess so,” Trump responded. “I wish the first time it was done correctly.”

https://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/in-2002-donald-trump-said-he-supported-invading-iraq-on-the?utm_term=.niP6Jlz4A#.jfw09OpgP

Through that time, I noted the people who lined up against the war. Former Vice President Al Gore notably did so, in a speech at the Commonwealth Club in September, 2002. A young Illinois state senator named Barack Obama did the same, early in October. In the Senate, Democrats like John Kerry and Hillary Clinton were equally notable for voting in favor of the war. Twenty-one other Democrats, from Teddy Kennedy and Bob Byrd to Russell Feingold and Paul Wellstone, voted No. The full list is here. Bernie Sanders was not yet in the Senate (he voted No in the House), but his independent predecessor from Vermont, Jim Jeffords, voted No—as did exactly one Republican, Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, now a Democrat, and for a while a 2016 presidential candidate.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/donald-trump-says-he-was-against-the-iraq-war-thats-not-how-i-remember-it/462804/

Seems to me that there were some great Democrats against the IWR. So just what are you talking about?

[baldguy]

37. Trump and Sanders are two side of the same hypocrisy cion.

Bernie Sanders Loves This $1 Trillion War Machine

Bernie Sanders on Lockheed Martin F-35 Jets in Vermont

Lockheed Martin in Vermont: Senator Bernie Sanders’ Corporate Conundrum

Sanders cries against corporate influence in politics - just like Trump does - but is perfectly eager & willing to court them for his state when they come calling. The deals with Lockheed are especially egregious, since they helped create the war machine that made the IWR possible.

[Human101948]

38. That's a stretch...the F-35 has not been used in war...

Many, many weapons have been built that were never used in war. You have to declare (or launch a) war to use them in war.

You are just making up stuff.

[baldguy]

41. "In 1985, for example, protesters massed at the General Electric plant in Burlington, Vermont,..."

"...where Sanders was serving as mayor. They were protesting the fact that the plant was manufacturing Gatling guns to fight socialists in Central America.

Jim Condon, now a Democratic state legislator in Vermont, was news director of a local radio station at the time and describes himself as an “old acquaintance” of the senator.

“There were protesters who were unhappy that General Electric was manufacturing Gatling guns at the plant, and so they would lock themselves to the gates and engage in civil disobedience. And so the mayor, Bernie, finally got cops to go in and arrest the protesters,” Condon told The Daily Beast. “The GE plant was one of the largest providers of jobs in the city. So it was economically important that the plant stay open and people who worked there went to work.”

[Human101948]

42. Bernie declared war on Central America?

Bernie declared war on Central America? American troops were using Gatling guns in Central America? First I heard of that.

[riversedge]

47. Bernie feeds into the anger and manutfactures hate as we have seen in CA Bernie protesters-Shameful!

[Lizzie Poppet]

25. To me, the party branding is of trivial importance; policies are everything.

But your reasoning applies, nevertheless. When a candidate adopts multiple center-right policy positions, can they be considered progressive (or even liberal)? You can replace "Republican" with "conservative" in your list and the same thing applies.

Moreover, when that candidate also embraces multiple genuinely liberal policies (albeit largely social ones with reduced "bottom line" concerns for wealthy backers), is attempting to describe them as "liberal" or whatever even a useful exercise?

Party issues aside, I'd also ask if we on the left have a candidate, or at least a major one.

[MariaThinks]

30. if a 70 year old man has never been a democrat his whole life but runs as one to become President

is he really a democrat? or an opportunist? or something else?

[Human101948]

43. As a voter I can declare myself a Democrat the same day I vote...

Does that make me not a Democrat? How many years do it take to become a Democrat?

[MariaThinks]

55. as a democrat i can support a variety of positions, why does that make Hillary a republican?

I know I'm going over a lot of heads by trying to stamp out hypocrisy

[Human101948]

59. Many of us believe (perhaps erroneously) that being a Democrat means supporting...

a variety of liberal, left, progressive positions. A clear eyed Democratic pol like Rahm Emmanuel would say "that's fucking retarded!"

For some, it is just about winning. It's a cynical calculus. You take positions that you find, through polliing and focus groups, that are going to win over your target voters. But always couch your appeal in language that gives you a trap door that you can use to bail out after the election without too many consequences.

[MineralMan]

32. Every Democratic Presidential Nominee

tries to get Republicans' votes, along with Democrats' votes. Even Bernie Sanders has talked about attracting Republican votes. I think you have not followed previous presidential elections very closely.

Independent votes. Republican votes. Democratic votes. Getting them all is what delivers landslide victories.

Vote for Democrats!

[JoePhilly]

33. And next Berners will be claiming that only Bernie can lure away ...

... Trump supporters.

[Bobbie Jo]

49. Oh they already have

In their zeal to promote open primaries, many were claiming that Bernie has soooo much more crossover appeal than Hillary.

The argument has been made, right here. Yep.

[Human101948]

60. Got anything to refute that?

Hillary unfavorable rating 54.2%

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating

[Bobbie Jo]

61. Do what?

What on earth does that have to do with anything we're taking about here?

Random...

[Human101948]

63. Bernie's crossover appeal versus Hillary's crossover appeal...

Hillar has historic sky high negatives. Bernie,,,not so much.

[Bobbie Jo]

66. Ok

What's you're point? Sounds like you just made mine.

[BootinUp]

34. Seriously, this post might make more sense at freeperville. nt

[djean111]

39. Years ago, IMO.

She is the one using the Democratic Party to further her own ambitions, Bernie is not.
I think she broke it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. She's just dispalying her historical and lengthy experience of collaborating with Republicans.

See IWR vote for example.

[riversedge]

48. Please add that MANY Democrats voted for the resolution.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

50. I do. I guess they all just made a "mistake" or were bamboozled by Bush.

Or, they acted out of political expediency and disregarded the killing that it would allow.

[amborin]

51. TPP, KEYstone XL, Privatized Social Security, Regime Change, Rigged FTAs, etc

[beachbumbob]

53. Last time I looked...Democratic Party is a big tent party...unlike either

Conservatives..or the wishes of zealots on the left or right...

[TheKentuckian]

67. There is already a conservative party and this is a duopoly "big tent" as you'd have it

greatly over weights and grossly over represents conservatism by definition. That is nothing to act all proud and noble about as it is literally a disservice to the world and the future

That's right this pithy, faux high-mindedness is actually feeding the strength and collaborating with those who live to make our lives hell and steal our children's futures.

This is then further exacerbated by the phony "big tent" between minimizing and outright forcing out anything center left and further depending on where you sit with a center/left Pol like Sanders being the "extreme left".

Not in maybe ever has anyone went off at the mouth about this "big tent" con job to mean to include the actual left, ain't nobody reaching out to any commies or anything.
It is always and only a Siren's song to go conservative and no doubt our ships will be crashed into the reefs because I have to break it to you but these folks you wish to cede the center of political gravity to have been real fucking wrong about virtually everything for years on end.

"Big tent" is an operationally insane surrender monkey type shit and almost has to be a sham when dealing with the other party in the duopoly being radically regressive. This isn't fifty years ago when their were liberal Republicans.

[onenote]

54. I recall a lot of posts about how Bernie has cross appeal to repubs

I guess that message is no longer operative.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251754593

[JoePhilly]

56. They've stopped acknowledging that fact.

[George II]

58. If that was said about Senator Bernie Sanders you'd be lauding him for being "bipartisan".

[Ferd Berfel]

64. In other words: If it walks like a duck.........

or,
A republican by any other name..............

I can't be the only one to notice that the arguments I get here at DU from CLinton supporters, are the same damned arguments I get from my republican friends and acquaintances.
Ending Welfare,
NAFTA,
TPP,
$15/hr
GMO
etc
etc.

The same damned arguments. The democratic party I supported and grew up with has morphed into another republican party. Center right, but more republican and Corporate-centric than pro poor and middle-class

It's disgusting

[anigbrowl]

65. By that logic Reagan was a Democrat

Next!