I'm curious: What is your end game with Bernie?

[LaydeeBug]

Do you guys (Bernie supporters) think that something magical will happen that will allow him to become the nominee?

Seriously...what is your end game here? Because even when POTUS has to point out some basic math, it's pretty clear the writing is on the wall.

So, at what *cost* does this continue? "It's all cool, as long as HRC isn't the nominee"? <<<--- Because math is math, and she is *going* to be the nominee.

Many have said that the longer Bernie stays in this race, the more damage he does to his influence. At this point, the *only* thing he can accomplish is helping Republicans to win. He is becoming Nader circa 2000.

But this is the DEMOCRATICunderground. Not "GeenPartyunderground" or "Revolutionunderground". And in this DEMOCRATIC primary, with the rules already in place before Bernie even registered as a Dem, (aside: I will politely point out that Hillary Clinton had more popular votes than Obama when she bowed out in '08 <because she knew how to do math> and Bernie does NOT have a higher popular vote count, OR a delegate count for that matter)and Hillary Clinton will be the nominee.

How long does this continue?

[JaneyVee]

1. The end game is to spend 24/7 attacking the Dem nominee, and...

Ignoring the tangerine terror, and threatening to not vote.

[baldguy]

5. To be fair, they're not ignoring the Orange One.

They're working around the clock to give him better lines.

[pandr32]

55. Dead on!

I wish I had a trophy icon to give you, but these will have to do:

[Henhouse]

69. lol...I didn't see that coming...good one...nt

[JTFrog]

70. +1 n/t

[Hortensis]

71. Lol. Also to be fair, there are TWO major SBS factions --

the larger liberal one and the noisier and more hostile radical one. Take a look at the sneering post on "compromise." This is the classic contempt for and refusal to compromise that is seen in both far right and the far left personalities. As far as their end games go, both leftist radicals and rightist reactionaries would rather fail than compromise, and of course usually do.

Note, the big, brief exception that was the Tea Party only succeeded for a while because it was actually thought up, organized, funded, and directed by agents of the Kochs. Of course, it initially drew a broad spectrum of types but before long the ultraconservative agenda that emerged caused moderates to fall out, leaving it to far-right extremists who had been convinced to fight fanatically for the Kochs' anti-regulation/anti-government goals. Then they turned on their masters, still cluelessly but just being themselves, and funding and other support were mostly chopped off.

[Maru Kitteh]

168. All very true. n/t

[Cal33]

209. I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the leftist radicals and rightist reactionaries have

been planted here by Corporatists - like the Koch brothers. Creating more problems
for others is part of their style.

[Hortensis]

216. I would be surprised if they weren't here and am sure they are.

Divide and conquer is their style. Deceive and demoralize into believing voting will accomplish nothing is their style. These schemes and themes are developed here constantly.

“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.” ― Adolf Hitler

[JDPriestly]

227. Bernie supporters like me have always compromised in every election and voted

for the conservative nominee.

I talk to a lot of Bernie supporters since I'm in California and we are in the midst of the primary campaign out here. It isn't a matter of having "contempt for and refusal to compromise." It is being asked to compromise election after election, and in this election, having the best candidate, the candidate most likely to win in November and discovering that even in this very close contest, Hillary's supporters are unwilling to admit what a lousy candidate she is and unwilling to back the best candidate, Bernie.

So, to answer your question,

We in California are doing what we can to elect Bernie.

It is disgusting and probably a big mistake by Hillaryites to assume that she will win and will make it through to November. Bernie still has a chance to win, and we who support him feel that it is not up to us to compromise. No one has to vote in November. No one has to vote for the Democratic Party nominee, whether that be Hillary or Bernie, in November.

Hillary supporters on DU are making a big strategic mistake when they are so mean and nasty to Bernie supporters.

Nobody has to vote in November.



So I would appreciate it if those who hate Bernie and his supporters so much would at least be quiet and let those of us who have not yet voted have our time to vote.

Thank you.

[Hortensis]

231. Hate Bernie supporters? I WAS one until

I decided HE simply wouldn't do. Very few of us have strong negative feelings about him, and many of us, perhaps most, do wish his policies were implementable. This isn't about Bernie himself.

It's about SOME, a minority, of his supporters, the ones notably prone to excessively hostile, aggressive, and absolutist behaviors. It's about the ones who, for instance, insist that every time he didn't do well it must have been because of corruption and who in turn wanted to try to overturn the popular vote itself in order to elect him.

A number of articles have been written in major journals specifically about these problem behaviors in some of Bernie's supporters, and they have been mentioned as a problem for Bernie himself in many, many articles about him and his campaign.

In case it didn't come through, although I often admire extreme IDEAS, just like the analysts who wrote those articles I don't like extremist behaviors. I not only despise them, but I think they are often antithetical to democracy itself and we have to be very careful not to give power to those prone to them.

You talk about yourself, JD. I'm not going to go back and examine your posts, but if you're supporting these behaviors you are involved in them. I also posted a psychologist's explanation of how associating with extremists has been found to cause others to fall deeper and deeper down that rabbit hole. Also how groups themselves may become more and more extreme and divorced from reality over time. My good deed for the day (I actually posted the first one a couple of times hoping a fair number of people would read it), and you might want to consider whether it could be true.

[JDPriestly]

235. As a Bernie supporter, I find the Hillary supporters to be hateful.

I'm in California. We want to vote. The Hillary supporters don't want to afford us that right. They are pushing Bernie to quite. No way. We in California want to vote for him.

I'm 72. I've been compromising and voting for Democrats who have increasingly moved to the right all my life. It's pretty tiring watching that movement further and further to the right. Talk about extremists. The right is full of them, and some of them are Democrats. I hate to say it but they are.

I cast my first vote for LBJ in 1964. (Had to be 21 to vote at that time.) I campaigned for McGovern. I remember Watergate.

Bill Clinton's presidency was a disaster for those of us who are FDR Democrats. We did not realize it at the time, but it was. I cannot support Hillary.

I am the furtherest person from an extremist that you will meet. But I have worked in fields in which I have seen the human misery that the Reagan era allowed to take root, and I think we have enough of that right-wing inhumanity.

Bernie is an honest man, a good human being who cares about the middle class and the poor. He is not corrupt, doesn't owe Wall Street a cent. I am a proud Bernie supporter. As far as I am concerned, Hillary is a Republican. She talks and acts like the Republicans in my youth.

Remember. Nixon set up the EPA. In fact, I suspect he was no more to the right than Hillary. Thanks to Bill Clinton's election strategy, our Party has moved to the right, and that move is having tragic effects on many people including most working people. We used to have strong unions. They are all but gone. Our trade policy is disastrous.

Thanks to some of the work I have done, I am very aware of the horrible effect that the trade courts in our trade agreements. I cannot vote for anyone who might support or sign yet another trade agreement that provides for trade courts or tribunals that are as independent of our democratic processes as those in our current agreements.

I have good reasons for supporting Bernie. It is not extremism. Bernie is the common sense candidate, the moral candidate.

[Hortensis]

236. You and 0 professional observers. They're too

busy trying to clean bernista hate messages off their various media. The massive pack attacks of all who don't hail Sanders is a real phenomenon many professionals have written about, not just some facile DU jab.

[JDPriestly]

248. Hillary and her establishment supporters are making a huge mistake in dismissing Bernie

And his supporters.

Win or lose, the support that Bernie has garnered along with Trump's ascendance in the Republican Party demonstrate the extent to which the public is utterly sick of establishment politics. We are sick of the ever increasing disparity of wealth and the trade agreements that cost us decent jobs.

Hillary supporters gloat at the peril of their candidate.

[Hortensis]

249. Don't deflect. You projected the SBSer's famous hostile

behavior onto supporters of the other campaign, and it just isn't so. The on-line attacks on every writer who didn't support Bernie by the more extreme SBS faction have been SO bad and so constant and widespread that they became part of Bernie's identity and may have been a significant factor in his losing the nomination.

[Seeinghope]

262. The pendulum swings both ways

The negativity from the Clinton supporters has been ott hateful towards Bernie Sanders supporters...even writers and the like. There is no one sided ownership here. Just look at DU comments. It will illustrate what kind of things are being said and by who.

The fact is that the media has all but ignored Bernie Sanders. They all deserve to lose their job titles as journalists..... This election has not been covered fairly in any way. Bernie Sanders has all but been blacked out in coverage thruout his campaign. That equals loss of votes. IF he would have been covered properly, especially, in the beginning of the primaries, he would be winning right now.

You don't think that watching corruption taking place right in front of your eyes is going to enrage people? Think again. Why do you think that we have such an apathetic electorate? Because they know and have to come to accept that their vote does not count. When you see the corruption of the system you can stick with it and fight harder to try to overcome it, you can just drop out of it because, why bother? Or you become angriy and fight back.

[Hortensis]

265. No, it really doesn't. We're no angels, but we're

responding to behavior that is literally indistinguishable from that of social conservatives of the GOP base, i.e., extremely antagonistic, aggressive (especially in packs), highly dishonest (to the point of being habitually delusional), and intolerant toward everyone who is: for the far right different (not one of them), for the far left anyone who does not support their candidate (not one of them).

I came to DU to get away from the nasty right and its adoration of lies as a weapon and found the same thing here on DU, but from the far left. The strong similarities between far right and far left have been an education.

Notably, both groups are far and away the worst behaved politically, constantly hounding and attacking, and are so bad that none of the bad group behaviors of other groups, shameful as it sometimes can be, come close.

Neither should ever, ever be allowed to get control of a government.

[Seeinghope]

268. True extremism on either side is polarized

Radicals are in a class by themselves. They are looking for the cause , the person and or cause to justify their over the top emotions, view of life and acting out. The cause is just some to justify their behavior.

[JDPriestly]

264. If you were a Sanders supporter, you would agree with me.

It is as with so many things a question of your point of view.

I am beginning to wonder whether the division between Hillary and Sanders supporters in the Democratic Party can be healed. At this point I suspect that if Hillary takes the nomination, that will not be possible. Bernie has said that if Hillary wins, he will support her, but I do not recall hearing Hillary say the same of Bernie.

Why should I, a Bernie supporter switch to support Hillary in November when she has not said she would support Bernie, specifically Bernie, not just "the Democratic candidate" should he win?

What is good for the gander should also be good for the goose.

[JDPriestly]

263. Twas a time when in some parts of our country, abolitionists and those who aided

Escaping slaves were considered to be extremists.

Twas a time when women taking leadership roles in professions or business was considered an extreme idea because a woman's place was "in the home." (In my lifetime.)

There was a time when with regard to immigration we had a system of quotas that resulted in discrimination based pn race and ethnicity.

Twas a time when most of our health insurance companies were non-profit.

Twas a time when you could get a job that paid a high school graduate enough to raise a ffamily on even when that was the only income in the household.
Thomas Jefferson had ideas that seemed quite extreme to the governing British at the time.

In contrast, Bernie's ideas are not extreme at all. He has been in Congress since 1992 and knows the score. His proposals are all working well in various European countries. They are not at all extreme. Rather they would unote our country if implemented. After all, we Americans are in the end all on the same team. The weakness of one of us weakens us all. The suffering of one of us causes us all to suffer a bit in the long run.

Bernie won the support of over 85 percent of Democrats in the presidential primary this year. Apparently, they do not think he is an extremist.

I am certainly not an extremist. I have simply seen more of the world including more of the extremes of wealth and poverty that now exist in America than many who support Hillary.

[luxpara4]

254. Damn true

Well said!

[Baobab]

267. They wouldnt attack Bernie as they do if they werent aware he's a better candidate

Also, lots of the people are paid - likely.


From my past experience with groups of people who acted like they do, I would be willing to bet a great many of them aren't real voters.

I have an artistic friend who has always worked in advertising (he's really good) - he used to work for the tobacco industry (decades ago, he no longer smokes, BTW- ) and last time i met up with him (eight years ago, about) he steered me to this paper which he said was making a big splash in the sockpuppet biz..

Check it out- It gives you a very very insightful look at how they think and what they do!

[uponit7771]

98. +1

[LaydeeBug]

130. yep, and they don't think it's *them*. nt

[Baobab]

138. Let her do what she wants!

its only America.

[whistler162]

153. He asked for Bernie supporters end game not

Hillary supporters daily game!

[leveymg]

204. I think Hillary supporters have to ask themselves the same question about the FBI report

What do they do if HRC is found to have violated her security agreement, as seems likely?

[cherokeeprogressive]

243. There IS no Democratic nominee yet... no matter WHAT you think the definition of is is.

[Trust Buster]

2. I think that the political fringes tend to be more self absorbed. They find it harder to except

defeat because they view it as a personal defeat. Their end game is face saving while aggressively attacking until the bitter end. Because, they have to be right after all.

[Trust Buster]

31. Except for the fact that all of the quotes you posted are true. By definition, the political fringes

on both sides of the political spectrum tend to be more radical. That is not debatable. I say the reason that the fringes are this way is because they tend to be more self absorbed. As for your Skinner comment, if you can defend Sanders supporters yelling F*** Y** at women and children attending a Hillary rally under the auspices of "freedom of speech", then don't tell me that I don't have the right to express my opinion on this forum. Skinner or no Skinner. GOT IT ?

[eastwestdem]

64. Go Trust Buster!! nt

[FlaGranny]

29. Stop insulting Democrats.

Bernie supporters are FDR style Democrats. In other words REAL Democrats. You might not recognize them as you haven't seen that many over the past half century but we still exist.

Stop calling us fringe. We are not fringe. We are what used to be recognized as main stream Democrats. How so many people got brainwashed into so many Republican ideas over the years is something I can't fathom.

Interesting that when you look at National polls, Bernie averages 52% against Trump and Clinton 47%. Say again whose policies are more popular in the country as a whole (even though they both could probably beat Trump)? Who are you calling fringe again?

[Trust Buster]

33. I disagree. I believe Sanders and his supporters are fringe. The President touched on this

yesterday in his Howard University speech. He spoke to their lack of willingness to compromise. On two threads, Sanders supporters wasted little time attacking THAT Democrat. To hear a Sanders supporter demand that I stop attacking a newly minted Democrat after watching them attack Hillary and Obama for months quite honestly makes me want to puke.

[FlaGranny]

43. If you can call

52% of the voting public "fringe" that is your problem. Bernie's values are that of FDR Democrats. Perhaps they are "fringe" when compared to the new Democratic party (which bears little resemblance to the party of FDR's time), but they are NOT fringe with the United States of America's voters, and actually Clinton voters, even though I wouldn't call them fringe, are more out of step with the majority of all voters.

Obama (I voted for him twice and contributed more money than I could afford to his campaign) is definitely our compromiser-in-chief, who started negotiations from center right and disappointed the hell out of me multiple times. That is not to diminish any of his other good accomplishments. Bernie supporters will not give up, if that is what you want. We will not. When and if, Hillary gets the nomination, Hillary better be willing to compromise because at that time Bernie and his supporters will be willing to compromise. We want to be HEARD and we damn well deserve to be heard.

Again, please stop your insults.

[Trust Buster]

44. Obama has not had control of the House since 2010 nor 60 votes in the Senate. A fact he reiterated

yesterday. Compromise is the only option in that circumstance. It doesn't matter if we're talking delegate count or congressional count, Sanders supporters just have a hard time with math.

[k8conant]

77. Compromise does NOT mean starting by gutting one's own position and principles and...

going down from there. That is called giving in.

[anigbrowl]

152. Well that's not an accurate characterization of how the President works

In general I find it unwise to trust people who resort to the most hyperbolic language available at the first opportunity. The more dramatic someone is, the less seriously I am inclined to take them.

[k8conant]

156. That doesn't sound like a response to what I wrote.

However, you're right that the right-wingers shouldn't be taken seriously nor should one cave in to their demands.

[FlaGranny]

188. I think you should look back

in the archives of this board - everyone here was appalled that the President took single payer off the table before trying to negotiate with Republicans. That was not the only negotiation he started from the middle right. Of course he had little chance against the obstructionists but he didn't even try.

[FlaGranny]

193. How do you figure that compromise is the only option?

Compromise does not work when one party refuses participate, so compromise is actually not even an option any more. When you try to negotiate you start with a more extreme position and negotiate toward the middle - something that Obama never seemed to get.

Bernie and his supporters, though, will compromise with Hillary. You can bet on it, and you can bet that when it is time for that it will be a good, hard, sincere negotiation.

There are many, many people left who want to show their support for Bernie's ideals by voting for him. We have given him enough money to continue to the convention. He's not going to turn his back on us and give up now. Besides, to quote Hillary, who knows what might happen between now and then. I won't repeat the rest of what she said - too shocking.

[OhZone]

131. He may share some FDR values, but FDR was a rich establishment pol. just like Hillary.

And Hillary shares most of those values too. H and B voted 93 % the same.

Hillary just knows you can't make huge jumps out of no where.

How often does America do revolutions? Not often. You need extreme repression by the British or a Great Depression. Things need to be tweaked and improved, but Obama has reversed the Great Recession and we're doing pretty good now. Gas prices are good, unemployment is way down. Yes, we need to tax the rich more (like Bill Clinton did despite rich doners), and we need to raise the minimum wage, but we also need to address gay and TG rights, sexism, and racism. And there is so much more to do across the spectrum.

[FlaGranny]

187. Although,

today's party is not FDR's party. Hillary's party is today's Democratic party. Democrats are always good for the overall economy and the stock market, but let me ask you, how much have wages (adjusted) increased in the last oh, say 30 or 40 years? How many more manufacturing jobs are there? Gas prices have little to do with which party is in power. Obama's major accomplishments are in the "rights" area and I appreciate that, but Hillary had little to do with that and has only recently came around to supporting gay marriage. Did she agree with Bill when he set the policies responsible for the dire straits of many of today's poor and black populations?

I wish she were the best choice but she's not, in my opinion.

[larkrake]

45. Bernie has far more voters than either Hill or Trump. You so easily defend the corrupt status quo

Obama is an idealist. He thinks the best of people, but Hillary's track record is too hawkish, right leaning and she has long ago sold out to special interests. Bernie has caucused with democrats for decades so he is not newly minted- in fact by not joining "party " politics, he was free to stay honest and above board. Obama is the best Pres in my lifetime, but he has made serious mistakes in trade deals and trying to win over republican robots. He has to support Hill to stop the evil Trump train, even though he knows Hill is a non entity who will do nothing to extend assistance to the abused populace. He dislikes her intensely yet must try to save the country and all his hard work from Paul Ryan and other Repubs who would manipulate Trump to undo all his efforts.

Hillary will find the people will not be falling back into apathy. The Revolution is Bernie's goal, not the office of President. Bernie has already won by waking up the populace to how and why they have been bushwacked. He and Warren will not shut up from here on. They are more powerful in the senate than in the whitehouse, and will wage war there. It behooves us to vote for the honest and caring candidates that Bernie gives a nod to, just to further the revolution. The reclaiming of our control of the government is far more important than the crowning of a flawed President. Both Trump and Clinton are not worth spit. Their God is power and money.

I will be voting down ticket.

[Trust Buster]

46. Far more voters than Hillary ? You don't even have to be good at math to know that's wrong.

[larkrake]

50. Indys and horrified anti-trump Repubs will vote Bernie over Hillary

Every woman and minority I know want Bernie, add that to your tunnelvision of Dems only. This is why Bernie polls above Trump decidedly and it is growing.

Bernie will not be allowed to win, that is clear, but his power of the people is so far above and beyond Hillary's wildest dream, she will have to weigh his influence or suffer a revolt. Her first bad decision will bring the hounds of Hell into her life. She wont last 4 yrs of ridicule. I see tragedy ahead, she lacks the class and strength and morals of Obama, and has to carry Bills growing dementia around her neck as well.

[Trust Buster]

72. Anti-Trump voters will vote for Sanders you say ? You mean the people that don't think Trump is

conservative enough will vote for a Socialist instead ? Now you look like a desperate boxer swinging wildly.

[brush]

73. Hillary has more votes than Sanders or Trump. Where'd you get those numbers?

[ancianita]

256. Where does Hillary get her numbers, is the serious, real question.

[brush]

257. Ahhh . . . the voters.

[ancianita]

258. Exit polls, you say? Or the machine data reports?

[brush]

259. I don't get where you'e going with this

State your case.

[ancianita]

261. Tell me why Hillary's voters numbers are so credible. Yesterday, Baltimore, decertifies its primary

results to get to the heart of miscounts.

State election administrator Linda H. Lamone said she became concerned when city officials — who on Monday certified their primary election results — later reported they had found 80 provisional ballots that had never been analyzed.

Lamone said the state also is concerned about an unusually high discrepancy between the number of voters who checked in at polling places and the number of ballots cast. The number of ballots cast was higher than the number of check-ins, she said.

...Without knowing what happened, you can't rule out anything," he said. "You can't rule out that there was some foul play. That's not the first conclusion you should draw."

John T. Willis, a former Maryland secretary of state who has studied Maryland elections, said errors aren't unusual in large urban areas. The alleged problems in Baltimore's primary fall far short of the election debacle in the 2000 presidential election in Florida, he said.

...The administrative errors that occurred are not to the degree of severity that have happened in large urban jurisdictions around the country — or happened in Miami-Dade County," Willis said. "It's nothing of the magnitude that is likely to have an impact on the outcome of the election...

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-election-intervention-20160512-story.html

I'm going to the place where all politics is local. Hillary, downticket, you name it. The counting in this country of 3,144 counties is important. I'm going to where even the appearance of voter suppression should be contested. And Maryland isn't the first state with counting irreguarities.

I want my party's candidate to not just campaign with dignity and fairness to opponents, but to win clean. I don't expect to be dissed or dismissed by Hillary supporters for not trusting the party's role in irregularites, either.

Where I'm going with Bernie is to the heart of what is democracy -- voter freedom and accurate vote counts. Mine should be everyone's "end game."

[AgingAmerican]

61. They aren't right wing

Which in Hillary land translates to 'fringe'.

[Kall]

180. Compromise is fine. Compromising by opening the bidding

with the Republican Health Care Plan is just a stupid way to compromise. Unless it's actually your goal, and then that's a problem.

[Hortensis]

75. FlaGranny, SBS has 2 main factions of supporters:

Liberals who conform adequately to the picture you draw, and radicals who do not and have tended to be very hostile and liable to burst into verbal flames every time they were displeased by the way something has gone. They are very different, with minor overlap sometimes perhaps. Which are you?

Are you one of those who would rather fail completely to improve healthcare in America than compromise by working to improve the ACA for now?

Have you seen every debate where Bernie's performance was adequate but not revolution-inspiring proof of DNC conspiracy to make him fail?

Do you believe every primary he did not win had to be due at least in part o tampering?

Do you believe every political article that does not flatter Bernie is proof of it's auhor's corruption?

Are compromise and cooperation dirty words? Do you accept or deny that democracy requires both to function?

Are you seriously considering not voting at all or voting for the GOP ticket in fury over the way this election is going?

If you're saying yes to some of these extremist attitudes you are something of a radical.

If they don't fit you, you are not. And when we criticize the extreme behavior of people over on the fringes, you should not believe it is unjust or that we are talking about you. Imo, you also should not be empowering their shabby behavior with your support. Support Bernie, not the people who have dishonored his ideals.

[FlaGranny]

86. Seriously?

I am an old-time Democrat and I will continue fighting for democratic values and those are the values of Bernie Sanders and not the new Democrats. I have been voting for Democrats for over 50 years, but recently Democrats, as in the establishment Democrats, reflect Democratic values less and less until they no longer should really call themselves Democrats. They have more in common with Eisenhower and Nixon than they do FDR.

Will I vote for Hillary? Yes, I will, but I will not be happy about it. The very thought of it makes me sick to my stomach. Makes me sick to my stomach the way this country has reverted more and more to the values wealthy oligarchs. The only thing that gives me any hope this country will come out of this "little dark ages" is that 52% of the voting public say they would vote for Bernie. That should put fear into some hearts.

[Hortensis]

87. Well, my best guess would be that you are basically liberal but

are strongly influenced by the people you're running with on this forum. Btw, I've always been a strong-left liberal but was never attracted by radical behaviors, quite the contrary.

I posted this on another thread, but it seems appropriate here too.

Convergence refers to an individual's tendency to become more similar to members of any group they're in and this is something that is noted across the board – even your language tends to become more similar. As such if you identify strongly with a group such as a political party, you will unconsciously become more like them and this will cause you to become gradually more zealous.

Divergence meanwhile is the tendency for any group to become less similar to other groups that they know of in order presumably to forge a clearer identity and to differentiate themselves. This then means that a political party or a fan club or a religious group is likely to gradually become more and more diverse from others and this will mean coming up with more and more 'out there' concepts which the whole group is likely to agree with due to the convergence principle.

At the same time this groupthink can also lead to a dehumanizing aspect where members of opposing belief systems start to seem less like real and important people (we are able to empathise more with people more like us). In turn this can result in an 'us and them' mentality that history has proven can lead to horrendous acts of violence and even genocide.

[FlaGranny]

195. That's quite insulting.

I read the news every morning to stay informed, and I make up my own mind how I feel about things. I try not to insult people. If you look at my profile, this is my 15th year here.

I do not join groups, and never have. I read this site because it is informative. I do not like group thought. I am not a radical. I am, I guess, what Bernie Sanders is, a Democratic Socialist, because he is the first candidate in my memory who believes exactly what I've always believed.

Don't accuse me of "running" with anyone. If you knew me you would know how ridiculous that is.

[Hortensis]

207. Look, Gran. I pointed out that there are

2 main factions in SBS's support -- the larger liberal faction, largely Democrats with their eye on the prize, and the Bernie partisans whose hostile, shamefully aggressive behaviors are giving him and the liberals a really bad name. You should be insulted at people mistaking your behavior for theirs, instead of referring to "us" and identifying yourself with those behaviors.

I am also an "old-time Democrat."

I am a lifelong strong-left liberal Democrat who wants essentially everything you want. If I had thought Bernie could accomplish more than Hillary Clinton, instead raising the concern of a failed presidency from bad planning and overreach, I would have been supporting him from the very beginning.

And yet you reject me like those shamefully behaved people, badmouth me like those people, insult me like those people, pretend I'm something I'm not in order to insult me like those people, and pretend I've never been something I am in order to insult me. In your mind you have turned a natural ally into an enemy -- just like those people. And my guess is that it is in order to insult me. Because it's sure as hell not to unite to win this election and continue the progressive wave that began with Obama's election.

You really might read this again.

Convergence refers to an individual's tendency to become more similar to members of any group they're in and this is something that is noted across the board – even your language tends to become more similar. As such if you identify strongly with a group such as a political party, you will unconsciously become more like them and this will cause you to become gradually more zealous.

[Fawke Em]

223. Personally, I think a nominee under a criminal investigation gives Democrats a bad name.

[FlaGranny]

234. You are attributing

words and actions and thoughts to me that were never there. There is no "there" there.

This is not a fruitful discussion so I'm leaving it.

[mountain grammy]

208. You are insulting with this condescending nonsense..

educating, then re-educating us on "convergence" and "divergence," so helpful the first time, you regurgitate it once again.

[oregonjen]

127. My Dad who is 85 yrs. old is an FDR Democrat and he voted for Bernie

He is not a fringe supporter and I wouldn't call myself or my daughter that either. Thank you for your post!

[pnwmom]

132. Sanders apparent lead against Trump is a mirage, due to the fact that a tiny fraction

of campaign attack ads have been aimed against him. They would plummet like a rock in the general.

[Maru Kitteh]

174. Sanders has never posed enough of a threat for HRC to truly go negative on him

Why risk that when it's simply not been needed. Republicans, would have had a damn hey day with him, and he wears thin so easily; gets cranky, doesn't want to answer questions. It would have been a disaster.

[FlaGranny]

197. The only way to go negative on Sanders

is to tell the truth about him. There doesn't seem to be anything "funny" in his past. Strange thing is, the more you know about him, the more people seem to like him. As much as Hillary has had the mud thrown at her (admittedly mostly unjustly) over the years, socialism has been taboo for 100 years and Bernie proudly wears the label.

[redstateblues]

252. Proudly wears it? He put "democratic" in front of socialist when he decided

To run for president to soften it.

[FlaGranny]

260. The word "democratic"

belongs there. He doesn't advocate a dictatorship.

[uponit7771]

99. +1

[LaydeeBug]

102. I am starting to agree with you... nt

[inchhigh]

3. The end game is the Presidency

You cant see it yet but you will.

[metroins]

9. Bernie will not be the nominee

That is fantasy at this point to say he has any legitimate chance of becoming president.

[inchhigh]

16. Perhaps a Dream but not a fantasy

The fantasy is that the most hated career politician in US history will be President.

[metroins]

22. And who would that be?

[inchhigh]

48. This is what just terrifies me about her

supporters. I understand wishing that she wasn't so disliked and I even agree that the mistrust issue has been fed by some very unsavory characters over the years. But choosing the most disliked candidate in the history of our party, especially when we knew about her high unfavorables going in , just guarantees this is going to be harder than it has to be and likly to not end up as well as it could have. Maybe the Reps really are in absolute disarray and any Dem will be able to beat them but it still isnt smart to choose the weakest one ever. You're asking the party to do a whole lot of extra work that it shouldn't have to do and other than simply not having another Rep president I just dont see any potential upside for ordinary people. This a poorly chosen fight that will take away from the really great things that might have been possible with even a marginally bad candidate.

[JDPriestly]

228. Have you ever been in California or Oregon?

[DrDan]

4. to see him back in the Senate as a registered Democrat

[SFnomad]

67. Any bets on how long it will take BS to return to being an "Independent"? n/t

[drray23]

202. Unless he goes and change it

the current FEC filing for this running in 2018 for his senate seat still shows him declared as an independent.

[LWolf]

6. I just love it when

I've been here years longer than someone who feels that they need to explain the site to me.

End game:

1. Everybody gets a vote and a voice.

2. The process plays out at the convention.

3. A nominee comes out of that convention.

4. It's general election season. The end game at this point depends on #s 2 and 3.

[Fairgo]

108. Even more humorous

When they have such a light grasp on democracy and the purpose of the convention. Ignorance believes itself to be genius because it cannot imagine what it does not know.

[LWolf]

122. Or, on the other hand,

perhaps it's not a "light grasp" at all; perhaps it's an understanding that this is the best way to achieve progress.

[Renew Deal]

7. The end game is Hillary losing regardless of who wins

Nothing less is acceptable

[HereSince1628]

8. Our end game is your not talking about us as 'other' --"Do you guys..."

When what survives as the democratic party comes together again around democratic principles, we'll be together not needing this campaign.

[eastwestdem]

65. Do you think most Sanders supporters were previously Democrats? The ones I know IRL

were not very politically involved at all. This is a serious question, because I'm not sure if we are splitting as a party, or just failing to interest those that were not engaged already.

[griffi94]

82. I know some life long Democrats who supported Bernie

But they don't hate Hillary.

JMO but the hardcore Bernie or Bust demographic
were more progressive than Democrat.

That's why the Bernie or Bust movement doesn't worry me.
They were never a reliable voting block anyway.
If Bernie hadn't ran as a Democrat you never would have noticed them.

If Bernie were somehow able to become president most of them would
turn on him in his first year.

As soon as he didn't deliver free college or free healthcare or overturn
Citizens United or or decree a law making banks and bankers illegal
or put all of the far lefts boogeymen in jail.
They'd take to the internet screaming about what a sellout he is.

Perpetually outraged.

[eastwestdem]

85. Makes sense...idealism can sometimes be its own worst enemy.

The founding fathers knew that compromise was the only way to accomplish anything among human beings who innately will have differing opinions. Hence, they built a system based on compromise. It may be a slow way to move, but it beats a dictatorship.

[griffi94]

88. Exactly right

Also the president has to be president for all Americans.
Most citizens are closer to the middle.

That's why candidates like Bernie or on the GOP side
Cruz don't win.

I didn't mention Trump because he's really all over the map.

[HereSince1628]

91. Like parable of workers in the vineyard, it doesn't matter when they came, but that they came

Last edited Sun May 8, 2016, 03:14 PM - Edit history (2)

treat them badly and they may very well be alienated.

Unaffiliated is the largest block of voters in the nation. No Dem wins without 85-90ish% of registered dems and another 40-45ish% of unaffiliateds.

Activists seem so turned on to arithmetic why aren't the demands of that calculus seen?

[Amaril]

107. Registered Democrat since 1981

I'm a Bernie supporter.

[bkkyosemite]

10. The primary is STILL ON! And until it is done at the Convention your OP will just be

another one of those OP's

[LaydeeBug]

173. There. are. not. enough. votes. left. for Bernie. to win. even. if. he. wins. 100% of. the. votes.

remaining.

I am so sorry. It won't be Bernie. It will be Hillary. Facts are facts. And math is math.

[Art_from_Ark]

221. Using a period after each word does not make your statement true

It just makes it look ridiculous, like you're saying it through clenched teeth.

[bkkyosemite]

237. I am so sorry but it's not over yet and I know it's killing you...take a coffee break

[LaydeeBug]

238. I know you're having a hard time dealing with facts and math and I *promise*

to take a coffee break if you take a reality check.

[bkkyosemite]

239. Don't need a reality check. Plenty of proof a rigged primary!

[LaydeeBug]

240. Of *course*. When *she* wins, it's rigged, and when *he* wins,

it's a revolution. Gotcha.

edit: typo

[bkkyosemite]

244. Big difference between the two wins...haven't you been watching? Gotcha

[LaydeeBug]

245. I've been watching, have you? She is winning. He isn't hitting his goals

because he *can't*. And math is math.

You're welcome.

[bkkyosemite]

246. Crooked math is crooked math.

[virtualobserver]

11. continuing to win primaries does not damage his influence.

There is no magic involved....He simply needs to win primaries.

The last primary is little more than a month away.
That is how long it continues.

Does Hillary think that something magical will happen that will make her unfavorable numbers go away?
Does she think that the attacks from Trump and Sheldon Adelson will improve those numbers?

[hootinholler]

12. What is this end game you speak of?

There is no end game. This does not end.

We have a powerful coalition and someone who knows how to wield it.

We may not gain the white house this election, but we will be setting the agenda this nation has. We have since the start of this campaign.

It puzzles me why when both other candidates have and are adopting Bernie's agenda, why wouldn't you elect the guy who is bringing it?

[womanofthehills]

26. Agreed - this is a movement

[LaydeeBug]

113. I don't know why you guys aren't electing the guy bringing it, but the mass crowds

at the rallies are NOT showing up at the polls.

Look, I like Bernie. But Hillary has won this. She has more votes. More pledged delegates AND more superdelegates, and her lead is insurmountable. I like what Bernie stands for, but much longer, and all he is really standing for is to help the Republicans.

At some point, it has to stop.

[-none]

120. Maybe it is the voter polls that change from Democrat to Independent, or even inactive?

Only in closed primaries. Maybe it is the long lines caused by reducing the voting machines from over 200 to 60 or less?
Why are the Exit polls not agreeing with the voting results where electronic voting machines are used? Why are they sometimes wildly different?
Why are we seeing Republican style election fraud in Democratic primaries?
Bernie wins where there are open primaries and paper ballots for a paper trail.

[LaydeeBug]

135. Of *course*. "When he wins, it's a revolution. When she wins, it's *rigged*"

[-none]

137. Didn't I already address this?

[LaydeeBug]

142. Didn't I address basic math?

[beltanefauve]

177. The superdelagates

haven't voted yet. You know that, right?
Just because MSNBC rolls them into the count doesn't make it so.

[Eric J in MN]

13. By staying in until the last state had voted

...Bernie Sanders increases his influence.

If he dropped out now, his campaign would be remembered as having won 18 states. By staying in it will probably be more.

He'll also have more delegates to vote for his agenda by staying in.

[drray23]

203. I think he already has enough influence

to have a prominent spot at the convention and influence the party platform. He does not need to drag it all the way for that.

[Fawke Em]

224. Well, he's not going to get out right before another winning streak.

That would be dumb.

[Armstead]

14. I'd explain how i see it....but not gonna bother talking to a wall

[GoneFishin]

15. To send a clear message that we won't reward lying, cheating, and anti-democratic behavior from a

party whose name actually contains the word "Democrat".

[Bluenorthwest]

17. I don't care for you speaking of Democrats as the other, 'you guys' and all. Who are you to do that?

Are you my superior? Is that a function of your status as a Straight Sanctified Reagan Democrat or what? What do you claim gives you the right to speak dismissively to me?

My State is holding a Primary right now. The State where my family lives votes next month. You demand that we not vote? Upon what authority?

It's called democracy, it's called the primary process. Your cohort decided you needed to cling to the past, the anti gay, one man one woman Reagan praising Clinton. In 2008 when both candidates were opposed to equality I promised this Party I would never again vote for a primary candidate who had spewed religious intolerance against LGBT, and I won't. Thankfully Bernie is in the contest, I will deliver my Bernie Ballot to the Elections Office today.

What's your endgame? How are you going to excuse this:
"It may be hard for your viewers to remember how difficult it was for people to talk about HIV/AIDS back in the 1980s and because of both president and Mrs. Reagan — in particular Mrs. Reagan — we started a national conversation, when before nobody would talk about it, nobody wanted to do anything about it, and that too is something I really appreciate with her very effective low-key advocacy. It penetrated the public conscience and people began to say, hey, we have to do something about this too."

Are you openly favoring Reagan over LGBT now or what? Is it that blatant? Because you never answered for that and none of her supporters did either. She has yet to face those lies and correct them in televised media because her supporters liked what she said.

[PufPuf23]

18. Highest relevance of the values held by Bernie Sanders and liberal Democrats.

However unlikely, something may occur where Hillary Clinton loses the placeholder as presumptive Democratic POTUS nominee.

If this occurs, I would expect the Democratic party establishment to attempt to replace Clinton with Biden or similar rather than Sanders.

I do not expect Clinton nor the Democratic establishment to be inclusive of the liberal values in the party platform or to support pols in general that are social democratic in orientation.

Clinton and the Democratic establishment are of kind to the moderate GOP of my youth in policy and method.

Personally. I do not want nor intend to leave the Democratic party but my kind is not well represented nor wanted by the neo-liberals.

[RobertEarl]

20. Pssssst, hey, don't tell everyone, it's a secret

We're gonna take over the world. Yep, our plans are to make everyone equal under the law, provide for the least among us, have world peace and a sustainable planet.

Get used to us, we're gonna be a pain in the ass to the opposition for a while yet as we can't do this in a short period of time.

Maybe it's time you joined us?

[SheenaR]

253. +1

[pinebox]

21. I don't know, what are you going to when Hillary's recommended for indictment?

Tell us, are you going to go to FreeHillary.com? Or maybe RepublicansLikeUs.com?
See how that works?

[Waiting For Everyman]

23. Until all the DINOs go back to being Repubs.

But don't worry, Hillary is morphing into one at a brisk pace.

I don't know how many times the same question has to be asked. It's like kids on a road trip who keep saying "are we there yet"?

[TCJ70]

24. Hopefully some of the party leadership will take notice that 40-45% of their party...

...voted for him and stop ignoring us.

[Arugula Latte]

68. I'd like to think so, but more likely the conclusion they'll reach from this is:

"Need more rigged elections in the future."

I will be done with the party if they continue on this path. And so will many others. I'll start to vote Green, and if enough people do, the Democratic Party will have to either evolve or die.

But, yeah, that was my answer, too. To send a message to the DNC. I'm not optimistic they'll receive it well, though.

[LaydeeBug]

92. Of *course*, because when Bernie wins, it's "a revoltuion" and when Hillary wins, "it's rigged"

[uponit7771]

101. meaning the majority of people voted for her how bout the "us" stop ignoring reality

[TCJ70]

116. Good luck in the fall...

...and with Clinton and her imperfect relationship.

I don't put people on ignore, but you've just about hit my last nerve. Do you honestly think it's a good idea to write off 45% of the party?

[uponit7771]

118. only if you think its better to right off 55%... put me on ignore, facts are facts ignore wont

.. change that

[Shadowflash]

25. The endgame? I dunno.

Actually FINISH the primaries, maybe?

For people who's anointed selectee is inevitable, you guys sound quite desperate.

Relax.

[oldandhappy]

27. keeping the issues alive

[TDale313]

28. End game: Long term movement

To change the conversation and direction of the party and country and begin a long term move towards a more equal and fair society. Begins with election/campaign finance reform, cause how do you address the other stuff without that?

What I don't think many non-supporters get? This, for me at least and I believe many others, is not all about Bernie. It's about his ideas and it's about beginning to fix a rigged and broken system. And that is a very long game.

[djean111]

37. No, they absolutely do not get that this is not all about Bernie. Says a lot about intellect and

values, to me. I don't think it has quite percolated through their hubris that a lot of people, when presented a choice between two shit sandwiches, will just leave the table and find something they like.

[LaydeeBug]

139. THIS primary is indeed about Bernie. You see, he's losing,

and there's no way he can catch up. So what does your movement gain by Bernie staying in a race he can't win if it isn't to help the GOP this fall?

[JoePhilly]

30. It'll end shortly after the last primary.

And remember that most people don't pay any real attention to the election until after Labor day.

The summer months in particular, people tune out and focus on summer activities and vacations with family.

There is a small but loud and angry contingent of Berners who will go away, having failed at their attempt to disrupt the democratic primaries and aid the GOP.

I hope that the real Sanders supporters get off their assess and start working on candidates for the future.

Some of them will, but I suspect that many won't. They'll go back to complaining, like they've done since the day Obama took office.

[-none]

124. Win or lose, we will not be going away

There is a small but loud and angry contingent of Berners who will go away, having failed at their attempt to disrupt the democratic primaries and aid the GOP.

We will be there in 2018. We will be there in 2020, and 2022 and 2024.
We the people... are fed up.
Remember Michael Brown? That unarmed teenager, gunned down in the middle of the street by a rogue cop, almost two years ago? Remember the outcry that caused? What is happening now with Bernie Sanders campaign, is a part of that same movement. Really, it is. Up until then, no other Black shooting by cops amounted to much. The people have had enough.
Being to the Right is hurting too many people. Time to move back to the Center. It is time to put the people first again.
Hillary soliciting funds from the very same people she thinks she will be running against in the General, is one of the symptoms of the political corruption that has gone on far too long already and it needs to be changed.

[LaydeeBug]

149. It's great that you plan to efffect change, but he has LOST the primary

so how does this help *anything* other than the GOP'S chances?

[-none]

151. The Primary is not over.

That means Hillary has not won yet.

[LaydeeBug]

190. Yes it is. Math is math. nt

[-none]

194. How can it be over when the convention hasn't happened yet?

And the FBI hasn't got around to interviewing Hillary yet?

[beltanefauve]

178. Nope

The primary doesn't come to my state until June 7.

[LaydeeBug]

191. Yep.

There aren't enough delegates left for him to secure the nomination.

EVEN IF HE WINS EVERY REMAINING PRIMARY AT 100%, HE STILL CAN'T WIN.

Math is math.

[mehneh]

32. Either he wins like a disney movie OR his people won't vote.

The fantastical bernie supporters are going to "threaten" votes others don't want to threaten they will more than likely be extinguished and just not vote.Some will switch to hillary if she gets the nomination b/c or Orange Doom looming over the horizon. Honestly, democrats are split down to the core and there won't be any compromises on either side (b/c of large policy differences).

[djean111]

34. You just won an ignore - who are you to lecture anyone? Feh.

Since Hillary is now, at last!, being truthful and courting the GOP - I can see that the Democratic Party I joined so many years ago has disappeared, the Clintons and the Third Way (and the Kochs, hiding behind the curtains) and Wall Street have purchased the Democratic party. So be it. I cannot go there. I will not. When the candidate favored by the DNC openly favors war and fracking and the ruinous trade deals, and says no to single payer and says yes to means-testing Social Security, and laughs at the blood on her hands, saying oops! - then I cannot follow along. Plain and simple. No authoritative and condescending little snipppy OPs can change that, you know.

What I will do, though, is really none of your business, dearie.

[LaydeeBug]

38. I am honored. I really mean that.

and since I am on "ignore", I didn't bother reading what you wrote. Since your actions reveal that this is a one sided conversation.

Best to you!! And I hope you can get over the FACT that the nominee will not be Bernie, but Hillary.

[Maedhros]

60. Rubbing our noses in it, eh?

I think "ignore" is the best response to you.

[LaydeeBug]

143. I am not rubbing your nose in anything at all.

When someone writes something saying they're ignoring me, there is no need to respond. It's not like they'll see it anyway. But thanks for showing yourself. I am sorry Bernie didn't win this time. I used to think he was a great statesman, but the longer he lingers in what he will clearly lose, the less I like him.

Anyway, SEE YOU AT THE CONVENTION!!!!

[99Forever]

35. Ahhh... another Loyalty Oath Pledge thread.

Isn't that special? And oh so fucking original.


BTW lady, you don't get to tell any candidate when they should drop out, OR any member of this community who they can or can't support.

If you don't like it, tough shit.

[BillZBubb]

78. Amen!

[LaydeeBug]

171. Ahhh...another attempt at censorship...

Talk about not telling someone what they can and can't and to whom. Of course, the truth *hurts* you right now, so I am can only try to empathize with you, since Bernie will NOT be the nominee.

So it wasn't a loyalty oath pledge...just a basic MATH lesson for you, with some truth, and you know it.

[99Forever]

186. You don't really have a fucking clue what censorship is.

Censorship can ONLY be imposed be someone in a position of AUTHORITY.

Oh yeah, fuck a whole bunch of fuzzy number "math."

[LaydeeBug]

189. And yet I know BASIC FUCKING MATH, and so do you. Pity.

Maybe one day soon, you will get over it. Math is math.

[99Forever]

199. Apparently you don't know BASIC FUCKING MATH...

...enough to get passed the absurd notion that ANYTHING is "over" besides the uncontested coronation.

[LaydeeBug]

206. Coronation? No. The primary that she *won* by getting more votes and more delegates. nt

[99Forever]

210. Nobody has won.

Anyone who thinks so is a fool.

[LaydeeBug]

211. Math is math.

and even if your guy wins 100% of the remaining primaries...100%, there are not enough delegates left for him to win.

Math is math. Get over it

[99Forever]

212. I'm. not fucking "getting. over" anything...

...except you.

Bye bye, you gone, forever.

[LaydeeBug]

213. Oh, you *will* get the fuck over it, because math is math

and Hillary won. He *cannot* catch up, there aren't enough delegates left. But I am honored *again* to be on your ignore list. I promise haters make her famous!

Bye!!!!

[Number23]

219. Go Laydee!! Perfectly well said and every word of it true

Which is why some folks are now so tewwibly, tewwibly sad.

[Fawke Em]

225. Delegates can and do switch.

Especially if it looks like she's going to the Big House.

[LaydeeBug]

233. suuuuuuuuuuure they will....hundreds of them.

lol

[onecaliberal]

36. Do you people understand there are 40 million people in California who haven't voted.

When would you people accept a republican candidate who was under investigation by the FBI for conducting government business on a private server that was hacked by foreign countries.

If she is fortunate enough to get the nomination, she will lose because you people would rather court republican votes than admit your political leanings are closer to republicans than to real democrats who want to make things better for those people who have lost everything thanks to reicht wing/ neondem policies.

[LaydeeBug]

39. Do you people realize basic delegate math?

Add to that the FACT that republicans can register as Democrats in time to do some damage, I guess there is no level, is there?

[onecaliberal]

41. Thanks for proving my point.

You're the last people who should be talking about math when you so obviously lack critical thought process.

[LaydeeBug]

94. I have basic math skills...a good foundation in rudimentary reasoning

might help you with critical thinking analysis.

[LaydeeBug]

111. and yet STILL she has more votes than your guy.

Basic. Math. There is no "unicorn". No magic spell will dissipate her lead once we're at the convention.

No one is flipping for him, and without that, she wins. And he loses.

Some of his supporters have contorted themselves so far to the right with their vitriol against her that is has actually become embarrassing. You guys want to have it at the convention? Fantastic!

***WE WILL SEE YOU THERE***

And he'll lose (again)

[MineralMan]

40. For some, it will be holding their breath until they turn blue,

and then kicking their feet as they writhe on the floor.

[Punkingal]

52. Nice to see you coming right out and saying how you really feel.

As opposed to your normal pretenses.

[MineralMan]

53. Always happy to oblige.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. The fight against government corruption isn't about Bernie and will go on.

Scrutinizing the character and history of all candidates is part of the way of achieving a better government. We aren't voting for the head of a party, we are voting for president.

[mikehiggins]

47. There is no "end game". IF Sanders doesn't win this primary a lot of people will drop away

BUT now that we know that there is a sizable number of people who still support progressive policies FOR REAL the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party will continue with the grassroots organization in the 50 States and by 2018 will assume control of the Party from the bottom up.

It will be a "crusade" and you know how younglings love "crusades". Difference this time? Lots of Progressives have had their faces rubbed in the fact that they cannot trust blindly anymore.

"Don't follow leaders and watch the parking meters" as someone once said.

Not that there is much choice in the matter. The water is rising.

[JackRiddler]

49. The game doesn't end. It continues in 2017.

Do you think this is a contest for some minor Internet blip known as DU? I think of it as DemocraticUNDERGROUND, by the way. No. That's nothing.

The thing that was Occupy, the thing that is Fight for $15 and Black Lives Matter and the immigration reform movement and the enormous climate change marches since 2014, the thing that brought forth the Sanders campaign and will soon enough rediscover anti-war, it's not going away and it's growing. The left is back and America is going left. Sanders may indeed "lose" this campaign, but I hope he's not going away either. There's plenty of money for him to raise for the cause, beyond this matter of the quadrennial clown show of presidential electoral politics. Remember among whom Sanders gets the huge majorities? They're under 45, they're under 30.

The people, enough of them, united for social and economic justice, money out of politics, ending corporate rule, achieving democracy and peace. Deal with it. This is the future.

[beachbumbob]

51. The end comes when Hillary getting the nomination on the first ballot and sanders

doing everything to see she gets elected....that is the only end game

[redwitch]

54. Until the primary is over.

I'm curious too. What is it about waiting until everyone has had their chance to vote that you cannot understand? Seriously, this is about the brazilianth thread on this subject.

[H2O Man]

56. For ever.

[YoungDemCA]

57. I'm not a Bernie supporter when it comes to the Presidency, but...

... I believe that the real end game, ideally, is the lasting impact on and training of the younger generation of Democrats and progressives to take the place of all of you folks who are more advanced in years.

The passing of the torch is coming, and it is coming sooner than we think. That is a good thing.

[dmosh42]

58. The end is like any previous campaign in history, not when the third way gang decides....

we need a coronation!

[Maedhros]

59. I'm supporting the ideals behind Bernie's campaign, not just the man himself.

I will support those ideas after the election, and through the next one.

Hillary Clinton is in opposition to those ideals. Why would I stop supporting them, just for her sake?

[whatchamacallit]

62. I'm supporting Bernie all the way until he wins or concedes the primary

then I'm voting for him.

[mikehiggins]

63. An underlying mistake is the belief that this is about Sanders.

You may recall Sanders only ran because the efforts to get Elizabeth Warren into the race failed.

At his age, and given what he stands/stood for all these years, Sanders didn't have a lot to lose. There was clearly anger boiling among the people and not all of them thought that it was Hillary's turn, no matter what the establishment, across the board, figured. So he ran, and like Perot (and NOT like Nader) was running FOR something, not against.

But the anger and discontent was not generated or orchestrated by Sanders in the least. An experienced politician he quickly learned that his positions resonated with lots of Americans and that he really didn't have to "evolve" to fit in with the latest beliefs pushed by the MSM and Goldman Sachs.

So, he may be denied the nomination, largely because a lot of people know HRC's name and she's been around for a long, long time. Most people are more willing to go with what they know and facing a choice between someone who's familiar to them and someone totally out of the blue and especially someone opposed by every segment of the Establishment, it isn't hard to see why Sanders trails by those three million votes everyone likes to brag about. Another way of looking at it, of course, is that the odds on favorite of every established group and politician in the Democratic Party is ONLY that far ahead of the balding old Jew from Brooklyn via Burlington.

So, if he finally goes down to defeat then all of his supporters will just grin and shake hands, like kids after a Little League game, and unite against the orange headed foe.

Most likely not.

If Sanders people were following him the way the Clinton people follow her that might happen. As it happens, though, that is not the case. Fracking, to us, is not a political issue. Flint is not a disaster that is going to be forgotten after November 8. Assassinations in Honduras are not going to be written off, like Kissenger can ignore Viet Nam, or Albright can view the death of thousands of kids as acceptable, and so on and so forth, endlessly.

This will not be forgotten, even if Sanders is sent back to Vermont. To many of us the choice between Trump or Clinton is not really much more than voting for the lesser of evils. The only difference is that now lots of people have woken up to the fact that it doesn't matter.

That the game is rigged.

That the rich and powerful have already won.

What happens next? I don't know but I'll lay in a whole bunch of dip and potato chips after I go voting down ticket.

[LWolf]

232. +1

[Arugula Latte]

66. At this point I would like to send a warning message to the DNC that

its days of shoving these shitty, lying, two-faced DINO DLC Wall St. candidates down our throats are numbered. The new generation is on to them and their corruption and their collusion with the corporate oligarchy. We'll probably get stuck with Hillary, yes, but hopefully she's the last of her kind. Either the Democratic Party starts changing back to being Democratic and progressive, or we are done with it. Then, the chips will fall as they may.

[Powdered Toast Man]

74. Simple...

Let ALL the states vote and see who we get.

Now give it a rest... The condescending tone is getting really tired, and "you guys" are going to need "our votes" if you expect to beat Trump in the end should "your candidate" win the nomination.

[highprincipleswork]

76. What does the Democratic Party and its presidential candidate do to prove they are Democrats?

[Blue_In_AK]

79. The end game is the nomination.

Barring that, I would like to see concessions in the party's platform.

Personally, I think it's incredibly short-sighted of BOTH parties to be running candidates with such high negatives. People will be voting for Trump to stop Hillary and voting for Hillary because they're afraid of Trump. Honestly, what kind an election is that?

[merrily]

80. Hillary continued her primary battles in 2008 well after a win by her was mathematically impossible.

Saying he is become Nader is ridiculous. Nader ran against the Democratic nominee- in the general

[beltanefauve]

181. Speaking of Nader

He took money from Republicans too. Now which Democratic candidate is openly courting Republican donors?

[merrily]

183. IOKIYAAC

Besides, Hillary already covered this: Big business, millionaires and billionaires do not get a single thing for millions invested in donated to her campaign without no expectations whatever. Meanwhile, she's discussing "expanding" Social Security with Pete Peterson.

[JonLeibowitz]

81. The end game is obtaining the nomination, and voting for him in November and 2020

I don't vote for Republicans, of any form.

[icecreamfan]

83. Spreading awareness of better options. Almost all of Sanders' policies will happen eventually

Nominating and electing Clinton is just delaying the better policies from being enacted by 4-12 years. The growing age gap in the electorate and economy makes this almost inevitable.

[silvershadow]

84. To leave convention with the nomination. First, though, we have to concentrate on

the task at hand...namely, these next few weeks of primaries. Hopefully most are too busy campaigning and volunteering to answer

[LaydeeBug]

89. There is no chance of Bernie leaving the Democratic convention with the nomination. None. nt

[silvershadow]

90. I would suggest you argue any points you may think you have directly to Bernie, then, through

his campaign, because he seems to have a different view.

[LaydeeBug]

93. No thank you. I can do math. nt

[silvershadow]

95. There is no math but the vote at convention. Everything else is speculation. nt

[LaydeeBug]

96. Oh, is *that* the new meme? It still doesn't change the basic math. nt

[silvershadow]

97. No, that's the historical fact, per the rules we all agreed on. nt

[LaydeeBug]

100. Awww. So then Bernie concedes? Because math is math. nt

[silvershadow]

103. Heck no. After he wins several more contests this month, he may well be ahead

(The Great Coast to Coast Train Robbery notwithstanding, because as we all know, he IS the actual front-runner). The wheels fell of Hill's bus months ago.

[LaydeeBug]

125. Oh *I* see. It's the old, "when he wins, it's a revolution, when she wins, it's rigged" O-kay

[silvershadow]

155. No, just simple FDR/Union labor views. You buys your ticket, you takes your chances.

Feel free to turn your back on our 80-year Union labor/FDR history if you like. I don't like.

[LaydeeBug]

157. Simple FDR/Union labor views include NOT enabling the GOP by staying ina primary you have LOST

Math is math.

[silvershadow]

158. I won't be. It's up to her to earn her votes. nt

[LaydeeBug]

161. She has indeed earned her votes, and she has MORE of them than your guy

Math is math. HRC's votes > Bernie's votes.

Nothing gets around that *fact*.

[silvershadow]

162. Ok. Well, I know how those in my family voted. ;) nt

[LaydeeBug]

164. Me too. ;) nt

[silvershadow]

165. You may win the battle, but you will lose what little labor support there is, I fear.

Good luck serving more than one term. 2020 is at stake for redistricting. Yikes. She better have a complete 180.

[LaydeeBug]

166. She has won the battle, and we have to focus on the war...*you* can fear labor support

all day long. I choose to be brave. We play the hand we're dealt, not the hand we want, wish we had, or even should have had.

[silvershadow]

167. I fear the TPP- the furtherance of The Corporate State. It is about so much more than

personality. SMH.

[LaydeeBug]

169. I am sorry you fear so much. I still choose to be brave...

and the question is not, "Will it be Hillary or Bernie on the TPP?" It's will it be Hillary or Donald?" and I am sorry it isn't going to be Bernie, but it's NOT. There aren't enough delegates left for him to win, and that's assuming he wins 100% of each remaining state...he *still* would not have enough.

[silvershadow]

170. Another one makes its' way to my ignore list nt

[LaydeeBug]

172. I fell honored.

I am sorry Bernie won't be the nominee, but there just aren't enough votes left for him to win.


**and you know it**

[moriah]

110. I like your attitude about volunteering. After all, there are still people who haven't voted.

I think it's premature to talk about anything until the votes are counted.

Bernie is zealously campaigning, as he has every right to do, and like my favored candidate did in 2008, has every right to keep on until the last votes are counted.

It's then -- how he chooses to deal with a pledged delegate loss if that's what results -- that I will make any judgements. I do hope that the platform committee gets more members who support Bernie's goals, though -- even if it's not as close as in 2008, many people have shown with their votes already their views. They deserve representation in the platform.

[highprincipleswork]

104. THERE IS NO END GAME. We are Progressives, & will never quit fighting the bullshit in the Democratic

Party as it currently exists.

How do you like that?

We may not win this one, but we will win others.

Live with it.

[DonCoquixote]

105. MY endgame

is to make sure someone on putting pressure on her to look left, to counteract those who are placing pressure on her to lean right. I do this because whenever Democrats lean right, they lose, and for some reason, those in charge of running things do not seem to understand that.


I use Sanders as pressure, so that 2016 will not become the second time Debbie Wasserman Schultz ruins Hillary. If we did not have Barack Obama as a backup, Sarah Palin probably would be running now, to continue the war in Syria McCain would have started.

[That Guy 888]

109. Another loyalty oath post?

[7wo7rees]

112. Have not heard yet of the "geen Party". Something new?

Why do you have a problem with letting everyone vote?
Your candidate wins. Who cares? Why in the name of all that is good can't we just let this go?

Why are Hillary supporters insisting Bernie must drop out?

[Laughing Mirror]

114. To win

What's yours?

[Amaril]

115. Spare us

You are not "curious" about anything. You have no interest in "discussing" beyond posting an insulting flame-bait that is of no point except to satisfy your desire to rub the noses of those you perceive to be the "losers" in it.

I am a DEMOCRAT -- I've been one for 35 years and always will be -- and I happily welcome Progressives / Liberals of ALL stripes to OUR tent. You do not get to decide who does or does not qualify as a Democrat -- or who deserves to post on this board -- so, as I said, spare us.

REALLY getting sick of these posts. It's not enough for your candidate to win, is it -- you've got to try to demoralize any one who dared to not support Clinton. It is a disgusting attitude / behavior to see from alleged "Democrats".

[DeGreg]

117. Please wait until the nominee is selected in reality...

The game ain't over; sure we're down but we ought not give up. The process ought to run its course. So called democrats who do what they can to short cut the process are as shady as some one the candidates; that figures.

For me, I'm with Bernie all the way, probably all the way to writing him in. I did not come out of political hibernation to compromise my conscience. I don't vote for evil, lesser or otherwise. This does not equal a vote for Trump, as much as you might need to tell your self it does order to cast a compromised vote for a compromised candidate ( who is under federal criminal investigation.

Own your vote with conscience and integrity, that's how we get the country we want. If that includes believing and voting for a corporate world where it's everything for a dollar and anything for a dollar--that's fine, just own it, cause a vote for Hillary gets a continuation of that world.

That's who you are... Right?

[A Simple Game]

119. Bernie is only following the example of one of the 2008's candidates. Care to guess which one?

You never know when someone might die.

And *going* isn't the same as *"is"*, *"is*" it?

[Zorra]

121. It will continue until all fake Democrat neoliberal scum are driven out of the Democratic party,

as the Democratic party continues to sustain heavy election losses due to mass public outrage at fake Democrat neoliberal scum policies.

Any more questions?

[SHRED]

123. Just asking this question...

...and your silly rant shows you do not understand the process.

[LaydeeBug]

128. There was no question.

Bernie will not be the Democratic nominee, and he knows it.

[arcane1]

126. You make the error of assuming it's about Bernie, a person. It's not. Bernie is the beginning n/t

[LaydeeBug]

129. This democratic primary is between Hillary and Bernie...if this a movement,

then what is there to gain in this movement or for this movement to continue to fight a battle (for the nomination) that he has lost?

You are depleting your resources that could be used for the next step. You know he is not going to win the nomination, and he knows it too.

[lmbradford]

133. Look guys...

See there, its about our money. The fact that we contribute money to Bernie and they want it. That's what these posts are really about. They think that we are going to start sending money to Hillary. Ha Ha.....not going to happen, even if she wins the nomination. I'm writing Bernie in and voting down ticket progressive Dems to win and make a change in our corrupt pos political system. True Dems are progressives, not Republican light, and there is no way in hell that I want our White House to be full of scandals and bullshit again. I thought we were finally done with that when we elected Obama over Clinton last time. So get over it, either we win, or we make whatever choice we see fit. My vote, not yours.

[LaydeeBug]

136. No, it's not about Bernie's contributions. It's about the GENERAL ELECTION

because we all know Bernie isn't going to win the primary. Even Bernie knows it.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. I'd like to have someone who isnt an East Coast drug warrior weigh in on any cannabis plank.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-todd/california-marijuana-petition_b_9851810.html

http://blog.sfgate.com/smellthetruth/2016/05/04/california-marijuana-legalization-2016-campaign-launches-with-lt-gov-newsom/

[pat_k]

140. Here you go:

Perhaps this will help some people "get" what it's about:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511507143

[LiberalArkie]

141. I don't know what was Obamas end game? You know, most of the Bernie supporters supported

Obama and the other people supported Hillary in 2008.

[LaydeeBug]

146. Obama was winning in delegates. Bernie is not. Hillary had the popular vote then

and she has it now. The point is very clear: Bernie will not be the Democratic nominee. So what's the plan? Fuck up the convention? Do you think he will win CA by 100% and the supers will start flipping? Because now that it is clear that he will not be the nominee, what good is he doing?

For his cause or this nation?

[bjo59]

144. It's not a game.

[smiley]

145. Feel the math....

http://www.feelthemath.org/

[B Calm]

147. She should drop out now so the party can unite!

Back at you!

[LaydeeBug]

148. Math is math. nt

[B Calm]

150. Bernie is still in the race and I fully support him. Last time I checked Hillary still

has not enough delegates to be considered the winner.

[Vincardog]

154. There is no "end game" this is not a game. It is movement and we will continue to organize push for

Real progressive policies and holding elected officials accountable.

[jillan]

159. Thank you!!

[Vincardog]

218. No Thank you we need your help.

[morningfog]

160. Obama did not point out basic math. He said we all know the math.

AND he said let it play out. Which is consistent with Hillary's lack of calling in Bernie to drop out. And consistent with Bernie's statement that he is staying in until every state votes.

[LaydeeBug]

163. He did, as he referred to Bernie Sander's camp in the past tense...

Here you go:

“You mention the delegate math. I think everybody knows what that math is," he went on. "I think Senator Sanders has done an extraordinary job raising a whole range of issues that's important to Democratic voters as well as the American people generally. And I know that at some point there is going to be a conversation between Secretary Clinton and Bernie Sanders about how we move towards the convention.”

See you at the convention.

[morningfog]

175. That quote and what you attribute to Obama in the op are

not the same, as I said.

[lovemydog]

182. ^ This

[wundermaus]

176. I prefer to let Bernie speak for himself to answer that question:

and have a nice day.

[The Second Stone]

179. They would be a wonderful addition as a long term wing of the party

and tried to do something good for the country. But this idea of "running one and then we're done" is totally bogus. Politics is a continuing thing. I've been doing it since the 70s and will be doing it till I'm dead. The players change, but we can only get people elected if we have regular voters and regular activists.

[marlakay]

184. To promote progressive ideas

Following Bernie's example. And I continue as long as he does, if he isn't giving up then neither am I!

[bigtree]

185. I want him back in the Senate asap

...to help Hillary make all of his revolutionary proposals a reality.

[VulgarPoet]

192. Write-in when the time comes, and only voting for down-ticket dems with low connection to Clinton.

I refuse to support someone who has spoken about attacking Iran, someone who supports "muscular foreign policy", or someone who seems to be at Netanyahu's beck and freakin' call. I do not support warmongers. I do not support people who would send my fellow brothers and sisters in arms to die for no reason.

[Vote2016]

196. This is neither the "end" nor a "game"

[HumanityExperiment]

198. Facitious...

taking your OP with all the 'seriousness' it is 'owed'....

"Do you guys (Bernie supporters) think that something magical will happen that will allow him to become the nominee?"

Yes, 'magic'... you nailed it


"Seriously...what is your end game here?"

read above question and answer


"Because even when POTUS has to point out some basic math, it's pretty clear the writing is on the wall."

read 1st question and answer


"So, at what *cost* does this continue?"

read 1st question and answer


"Many have said that the longer Bernie stays in this race, the more damage he does to his influence. At this point, the *only* thing he can accomplish is helping Republicans to win."

'many'? I suspect only HRC supporters would say what you posted, if a progressive / liberal can 'damage' HRC to the extent you post then why do you back her?


"But this is the DEMOCRATICunderground"

Thanks for reminding us all what we're actaully here for... this isn't HRC underground...


"How long does this continue?"

Until the convention concludes...


Wow, that was easy, it's almost as if you could've answered all these questions yourself...

[Silver_Witch]

201. You are not the least bit curious. This is just another OP telling Bernie supporters to shut up!

Last edited Tue May 10, 2016, 01:16 AM - Edit history (1)

Your lecture proves my statement!

[LaydeeBug]

215. Not at all...but he is NOT going to win...there aren't enough delegates left

so what is your endgame? Since it CAN'T be the nomination, what is it? That's not asking you to shut up...it's asking you to communicate.

[Silver_Witch]

220. My end game is none of your business. If you cared I would engage you in conversation.

All you care to do is shame, blame and denigrate.

[NurseJackie]

205. They'll probably "disappear" for four years ...

... then return again full of piss and vinegar, ready for another fight, complaining of being "ignored" and "marginalized" (but having done nothing during the interim to join, volunteer, influence, participate, guide, run, campaign, or elect like-minded individuals, or steer the party.)

"Democracy requires compromise, even when you are 100% right. This is hard to explain sometimes. You can be completely right and you still have to engage folks who disagree with you. If you think that the only way forward is to be as uncompromising as possible, you will feel good about yourself, you will enjoy a certain moral security, but you will not get what you want." - President Barak Obama

[bigwillq]

214. The end game is to let the process run its course

Until there is an official winner based on PDs and SDs.

[Orsino]

217. A democratic Administration, Congress and government...

...more responsive to the needs of the people.

My endgame does not require that Sanders be elected or appointed to any particular post, but he is the most influential progressive in the race, and is therefore likely to be key to the movement's next successes.

[MrMickeysMom]

222. How would ANYBODY know what the popular vote was at this point unless they didn't want to?

The end game, by the way, assuming your aim is real interest ISN'T TO HAVE AN END GAME.

How long can we go on pretending there aren't finite resources left in this world?

How long can we go on pretending there isn't a failed health care system that puts people out on the street after one major illness?

How long can we turn a deaf ear and blind eye to a total media black out of the Sanders campaign from the start, all the while looking at the turnout to his message and win of every open primary?

Just who the hell are you kidding here?

[JDPriestly]

226. i'm in California. My plan is to vote for Bernie Sanders (as is my right) and do

everything in my power to help him win the California primary.

[KPN]

229. End game? Hear's my thoughts. The movement will carry on regardless.

The end game is to change the Democratic Party back to what it was before it was infiltrated by Third Wayers/New Democrats. Democratic principles apply to economic structure and regulation just as they apply to equal rights, freedom of choice, etc., not to mention electoral process and finance.

So, it continues as long as it has to. As for this election cycle, it strikes me that the ball may well be in Hillary's court -- unless of course Bernie pulls off an amazing upset.

[lame54]

230. We will continue this fight as long as people wrongly blame Nader for Gore's loss...

get over it already

Go Bernie Go!

[LaydeeBug]

242. No one blames Nader for what was STOLEN from Gore...

Bernie will *not* be the nominee. Get over *that*, sweets.

[imagine2015]

241. The end game is obvious. Have Bernie bury Trump in the general election.

And of course implement the changes he has advocated for so long.

You really don't understand that?

[deepestblue]

247. Re:

[hueymahl]

255. Off-topic, but that is a really nice picture of the whitehouse

Mind me asking where you got it?

[deepestblue]

266. Here's the link to the white house image you requested, hueymahl

cdn.history.com/sites/2/2013/11/district-of-columbia-white-house.jpg

[redStateBlueHeart]

250. For me personally, it's hoping the spirit

Of his campaign will inspire other progressives to run for Congress. I'd love to see some Berniecrat lawmakers elected.

[pandora nm]

251. To cast my vote for Bernie on June 7 in NM

MY vote.