2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary Is Reaching Out to Jeb Bush & Other Republicans, NOT to Bernie Supporters!
Hillary Clinton set to assemble Republicans for Hillary
http://www.india.com/news/world/hillary-clinton-set-to-assemble-republicans-for-hillary-1168078/
So much for the "progressive" argument.
ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)ass-u-me
Eko
(7,299 posts)"The sun is setting dear Hillary, and I am done. I'm disappointed in the campaign that you ran." Now you are complaining that she is not reaching out to you? Why would she or any of her supporters, you're done right?
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)the pending merger with the GOP. The rest of us will be left to gather the tatters of the Democrats, and form a new party.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)The upcoming merger between the DLC, BlueDog Third Way crowd, and the "centrist' republicans, will be the culmination of the CLintons 40 year push to the right. One party to the right of center (pragmatic) with the insane fascists on the right and the Progressive Liberal and Democrats on the left. The Clintons are working towards a new party - something submissive to corporate and 1% interests but not as racist as the Trump crowd, but just as corporatist as republican have ever been. We will have to form a new party of the PEOPLE after the abortion of democracy that is about to occur. Once they push through the TPP they will be the government.
Response to amborin (Original post)
Post removed
apcalc
(4,465 posts)disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)it should read.. "Neo-Liberal"
DCBob
(24,689 posts)From what I have seen here.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)They may need a little more GOTV push, but it's early for that. By then, Bernie will be available himself to support that effort. (Reaching out to the independents who support Bernie may be a little trickier, but again, as the time draws closer, Bernie will be available to help.)
Going after Bernie supporters now, while Bernie is still in the race (which is hard to do without seeming negative on Bernie), is a very different strategy than going after Republicans who don't want Trump. Disaffected Republicans are a potentially welcoming audience for this message; Bernie fans, not so much, as long as he is in the race.
Also, please see post #10
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)If there had ever actually been any outreach in our direction, by Hillary and her campaign or by Hillary supporters on DU, then you might have a point.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Er, I mean outreach
DCBob
(24,689 posts)How do you reach out to someone who calls you a lying corporatist oligarch?
eomer
(3,845 posts)if you were a lying corporatist oligarch?
Not saying anyone is one, just wondering who such a person would reach out to.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)You and I obviously are looking for different things in the people who represent us.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...Bernie's supporters are BernieBros, they are uninformed youth who just want "free stuff", they are naive and believe in unicorns, they are fools to contribute to him, etc etc; while Bernie himself is a grumpy old man, a crusty old Jew, a racist, a misogynist, and last but not least, a con artist who is only in it for those sweet, sweet donations.
That is just a smattering of the mud that has been slung here, on a daily basis, for many months now.
Yes you can point to nasty posts from Bernie supporters too. But we are talking about outreach from the presumptive nominee. You and others clearly believe (with a strong basis, I will admit) that she will be the Democratic nominee. So as such, she is the one who is expected to do outreach. So here she is, doing outreach to the Republicans. She has not done any outreach to the left, nor will she, if the past is any guide. Instead she will "pivot to the center" (read: "pivot to the right" . And anyone who is paying attention can see that the right is where she is most comfortable.
Any slightly left position she holds is always limited to social issues, and even there she is often dragged kicking and screaming (2013 is when she first supported LGBT marriage equality; before that, she actively opposed it, stating that marriage is a bond, no, a sacred bond, between a man and a woman...).
But let's face it, she really does represent Democratic Party loyalists. And the Democratic Party hates real leftists as much as, or possibly even more than the Republican Party does. Why? Because being the bought-and-paid-for triangulators that they are, they absolutely hate being exposed as such -- they hate it with the passion of a thousand white hot suns.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...a lying corporatist oligarch.
You are basically putting all of Bernie's supporters into a single group and then saying there, see, we can't do any outreach to those dirty leftists.
That is the clear message.
Go for it.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)Its Bernie's supporters who are trashing her... certainly not all of them but seems like a lot of them based on what I read here on a daily basis.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...as we Bernie supporters are reminded again and again.
The back and forth here has reached new lows, and yes, that includes some on both sides.
That has nothing with Hillary's refusal to reach out to the left.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)So my view is a bit skewed no doubt.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)The Bernie supporters are still with Bernie. This is just bogus complaint thrown against Hillary by people who illogically hate her.
I don't hate far leftists, but I'm angry at the ones who won't vote for Hillary in the general election.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...positively sneer whenever independents and crossover votes for Bernie are mentioned? Sure, they say, that just goes to show he's really a gun nut (or variants of that argument), and more conservative than Hillary. Why let independents have anything to do with selecting OUR candidate, they say.
And yet when Hillary reaches out to Republicans, even saying she and they share values... well somehow that's okay.
Personally, I don't think either argument has merit on its own. Yes, Bernie does appeal to many outside of the Democratic Party. Yes, Hillary has the right to reach out to the other side, particularly when Trump looks to be the Republican candidate.
BUT... Hillary has not once reached out to the more liberal wing of the party. Like Obama, and like most establishment Democrats (cough Rahm cough), she treats us like we have cooties. Well how the hell are we expected to react to that? I find it extremely insulting, especially given the very strong showing that Bernie has made in this campaign. In fact it is beyond insulting, it is very troubling. But then I never expected anything different from her. I say that without contempt, just being realistic.
Our party doesn't want us. They don't like us. They don't want anything that might threaten the way things are. But if this primary season has shown anything, it has shown that the population at large is fucking sick and tired of the way things are. The elites ignore this at their peril. And Hillary is definitely, positively one of the tippy top elites.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)She respects them and wants their votes. I don't know where you come up with the cooties idea.
I haven't seen anybody say Bernie gets independent votes because he's a gun nut. Its pretty clear he's not. I can't imagine anybody saying Bernie is more conservative than Hillary.
I do object to independents and Sanders supporters participating in the primaries if they don't intend to support the nominee. It takes a majority to win elections, and it takes a win to accomplish anything. That means if we want to change the world, rather than prefer to curse it like so many on the far left, we have to form a team. A team means compromise and loyalty and working toward a common goal. I don't like people trespassing into the effort to drag it in a direction where the real supporters don't want it to go. Such people are cheating, and helping the other side.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...in what you think of the left wing of our party:
"I don't like people trespassing into the effort to drag it in a direction where the real supporters don't want it to go. Such people are cheating, and helping the other side."
WTF does that even mean? Are you saying that the 45% of voters in the Democratic primaries who favor Bernie, are not real? Or are not real Democrats? This just illustrates the problem, that the left is simply dismissed, and told we are cheating when we try and advance our agenda... an agenda, by the way, which is pretty much the same agenda as FDR back in the day.
And if you have not seen posts saying that Bernie is a gun nut, or that he is more conservative than Hillary (not to mention more of a warmonger), then you really have not been following GD_P very closely.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)except the ones who refuse to support the nominee. Its like you and I decide to play poker with our paychecks. I win, but the second I do you grab your stake out of the pot and say you don't believe in poker.
This is something we are doing together and the prize is the support of all those who participated. If you don't plan on paying your share of the prize you are cheating.
Hillary is way to the left of FDR, at least as measured by social programs. We have expanded Social Security and Medicare now, among many others. Hillary supports these things. She has never advocated giving less than we had under FDR.
This FDR stuff is sanctimonious and annoying.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...and Hillary has also evolved, being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century on the issue of gay marriage, which she only began supporting in 2013. Before that, it was speeches about marriage being not only a bond between a man and a woman, but a sacred bond. Sorry but neither she nor you can erase that FACT.
But the country has devolved in finances, to the point where people are burdened with huge debt as a way of life, where we are subject to predatory financing (payday loans for example), where the financial whizzes are allowed to plunder the population at large, and young people shoulder huge loans that they can never discharge in bankruptcy, and medical bills can and often do bankrupt even those who have insurance -- and if one of the Little People should find themselves in dire straits, all we hear is "Well you signed it, you should have known" and the like. Meanwhile the Smart Guys at the top are laughing all the way to the Cayman Islands where they have hidden their loot, congratulating themselves on how astute they were to write in those sadistic clauses into the credit card contracts (for example), paragraphs of dense prose in 4-point type. But people need credit to live the standard life style in this country, so we keep signing those damned agreements, and then getting fucked if we are ever so much as a day late on a single payment. Yeah, that's the kind of society I DON'T want to live in, thank you very much.
Hillary is very much a part of the elites that have brought us this debacle, where the great unwashed are viewed as easy prey by those at the top. They may not even be aware of how really difficult our lives have become, due to their self-serving policies. Historians tell us that Marie Antoinette really did not mean to sneer when she said "Let them eat cake". She simply did not know that the peasants were FUCKING STARVING.
We aren't there yet, thank goodness. But we're getting there.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)She supported civil unions, which was as far it was politically possible to go at that time. Gay marriage was political suicide 10 years ago. I believe she also voted against the defense of marriage act. People complain about don't ask don't tell but it was an improvement over what was in the military before. The Clintons have always supported gays, just not the marriage part until it was politically doable.
Long ramble there but I'll talk about the student loan part. The Democrats passed and have even expanded programs for those with student loan debt. Its now possible to pay just 10% or 15% of disposable income (that which is over 150% poverty level) for a period of 10 to 25 years. Then the loans are forgiven. Democrats also took student loans away from the banks (who the progressive say control everything.) Student loans were one of the banks' big profit makers. So, everything isn't about fat cats preying on the masses who are suffering.
If Bernie wins, people will still have debt. Hillary didn't create debt.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...from the get-go.
When I went to university, I was able to put together a program of grants, loans and work study. The loans were relatively small, at 3% interest IIRC, and were paid off in 3 years.
For many students nowadays that is simply not possible.
You talk about her policies of nibbling around the edges as though they actually address the problems. They do not, because the problems are SYSTEMIC. The SYSTEM needs to be changed drastically. And Bernie is the only one advocating for this -- unless you count Trump, who seems to only want to be a demagogue and to act as though he is willing to burn it all down.
Speaking of Trump, there is an example of one of the elites who knows how to play the game. He got rich by using bankruptcies to avoid paying debts. Funny, isn't it, how bankruptcies are just swell for thugs like him. Funny, isn't it, how over the last few years we have seen so many companies go bankrupt and pay pennies on the dollar to the pension funds that were supposed to pay for their employees' retirements.
The system is rotten, stinking, corrupt to the core. Tinkering around the edges just isn't going to fix it. And that is why I support Bernie over Hillary: he pinpoints the issues, and he proposes realistic solutions. Again: funny, isn't it, how many other countries have universal health care, tuition free higher education, effective social safety nets... but our country, the Greatest Country That Ever Was, and also the richest, cannot? If we propose such things, we are fools, naifs, silly people who want a unicorn and a pony and how the hell could we ever pay for such things anyway? Taxing the rich and the corporations? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? That is the response we get these days not just from Republicans but from our very own 3rd Way Democrats, including a very vocal contingent here on DU, whose constant refrain is that the youth who support Bernie are just doing it for the "free stuff" that he promises.
I guess we just don't see eye to eye on these things. But I have appreciated the exchange.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)NWCorona
(8,541 posts)The Republicans call her much worse. Besides at this point Hillary is reaching out to the Bush machine.
frylock
(34,825 posts)What more do you want?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It's convenient how often 'outreach' and 'pandering' are conflated when bias dictates doing so.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)at least now she's being honest.
highprincipleswork
(3,111 posts)timmymoff
(1,947 posts)Kind of speaks volumes , what will she offer them? Answer: Business as usual.
Kittycat
(10,493 posts)Dontcha know
Rockyj
(538 posts)Body Snatchers. They so much like Trump supporters :
https://twitter.com/lindseywasson/status/729092714461990912
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)There is nothing to be receptive to.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)Because I see no evidence of any interest in "party unity" if the campaign is going out of its way to appeal to Republicans while kicking progressives in the face. I guess they don't think they need us.
mikehiggins
(5,614 posts)SFnomad
(3,473 posts)Exilednight
(9,359 posts)Supporters proved to be irrelevant.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)and they will be just as irrelevant.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)Obama did not need the PUMAs due to the new number of first time voters and Democratic converts he brought with him.
In the 2008 primary, the Democratic party was setting records in primary voter turnout. In 2016, not so much.
The majority of new Democratic party primary voters in the current cycle are those that Bernie turned out, not Hillary.
Now I do admit this: Bernie is not turning out the same numbers of new and young voters that Obama did, BUT, he is turning out an enormous amount compared to Hillary who is relying on the traditional Democratic coalition.
Hillary now has two choices, pivot left and try and to earn the votes of Bernie's supporters, or pivot further tight and go after the anti-Trump Republicans.
Early signs show she is choosing to pivot right, but she does so at her own peril. If a credible third-party candidate emerges, then the GE will go to the HoR and we will either have a libertarian or Republican president.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)so she can do without us. I certainly can do without her style of democrat.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)Another persecution fantasy.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)We're being pissed on and told it's raining. In any event, if, as it now appears, Hillary doesn't need progressives why do her supporters even care?
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)between asking Republicans for money and caring about the votes of progressives. Of course she wants money. She needs it. She wants all the votes she can get, Progressives, Independents, Republicans and
Democrats.
You can put it another way, but its still a hyper-sensitive illusion of a snub. Its like someone who freaks out because his girlfriend talks to another guy.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)it's like someone who freaks out because they find out someone they are supposed to trust is being paid by someone they definitely don't.
riversedge
(70,218 posts)anger. The anger becomes Hate in many cases. Look what you approve of in CA at family attended Town Halls!! You cannot control many of your followers but you have manufactured them.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)John Poet
(2,510 posts)when she tells Bush neoconservatives that she 'shares their values'
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)And, even us non-Millenial citizens just LOVE the GUY! He speaks "Real Truth to Power"...unlike his "Art of the Deal" opponent, (and awestruck followers also disillusioned with where America is heading) who will sell us down the River along with his Wedding Guests.
cui bono
(19,926 posts).
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Maybe it's Funding Issues. The Dem leaning donor base is tapped out and the coffers need to be filled. Still it's a bit of a stab in the back to those Bernie supporters she was so confident in getting on board after the Convention.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...that's why she and her followers were so eager for Bernie to drop out, they could have made nice and tried to use his donor base.
Since that didn't happen, the next move is to veer right and tell the Republicans how she "shares their values".
Which is, sadly, all too true.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Are maxed out for the primary
Matariki
(18,775 posts)because I value truth and honesty.
Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)litlbilly
(2,227 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)They funded her big time when she was a shoe-in. Bernie was an unexpected dark horse. People responded...a movement began. Donors don't like things like that.
Then, along the line, it became obvious...based on many polls...that it was Bernie who was able to beat the Republicans. Remember how she had to take out campaign time in some state to go meet with the Good Old Boys, where, in Colorado or someplace?
I agree, it was sooner than expected...there are still a lot of primaries. I don't know whether it will make a voter difference, but it sure as shootin' brings out her real inner, now outer, Republican roots.
progressoid
(49,990 posts)Mind you I'm not defending this, but its probably better for her to do it now. The general public (not informed Bernie supporters) won't remember this later in the election. There will be so much other shit to deal with, this will get lost in the fog of politics.
Arkansas Granny
(31,516 posts)Better to wait until the primaries are over and let tempers cool s little, IMO. She can't force the issue.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)But you can see why this doesn't sit very well at all with progressives, right?
Arkansas Granny
(31,516 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)But certainly most Bernie supporters are going to be progressives and far left. And the far left probably isn't going to like her chumming up to moderate Republicans.
dreamnightwind
(4,775 posts)Quite the opposite, though. She is chumming up to the corporate donors who back the war-making, fossil fooling, labor offshoring, privatizing kleptocracy.
Bernie would chum up to actual Republicans and independents (not the donor class) on issues such as getting corporate money out of politics, saving an inhabitable planet, retaining some kind of sovereignty so we can make and enforce our own laws (instead of signing all that away in trade agreements), ending the drug wars, and protecting social security.
thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)Last edited Sun May 8, 2016, 12:40 PM - Edit history (1)
...that she cannot also reach out to Sanders supporters, so I think your headline is putting forth a false choice. I think it's also a matter of timing... focussing on Sanders supporters will make more sense if and when he actually concedes. And in that case, she'll have Bernie himself to help do the heavy lifting, as he said he would support her against Trump if she were the nominee.
Also, this is about fund-raising. At this point, who do you think is more receptive to that message? Again, Bernie hasn't conceded. His supporters are still sending their $27 to him, they're not going to send to Hillary. Meanwhile, a lot of Republicans (like the Bushes and presumably their supporters) are not at all pleased with the Trump nomination, they are ripe for the picking. Ultimately, she will need to appeal to Bernie supporters, but right now, they are not going to be much of a source of funding.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)thesquanderer
(11,986 posts)Bohunk68
(1,364 posts)If so, what shouldn't he?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)But good try.
timmymoff
(1,947 posts)but she isn't seeking disaffected republicans. She is seeking mega donors so not really votes but money, but only Hillary isn't corrupted by money, all GOP politicians money is bad unless it goes to Hillary of the Pure.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)How selfish of me to think she meant me! Nope, she wants the repubs.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)It's all family.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)And all those kids who want a free public education system? Screw'em!
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)... solve sexism and racism?
apcalc
(4,465 posts)She has been reaching out to you...
As for the Bush supporters, they really dislike Trump, and would love to see him go down. I don't see a downside to getting their money, as long as there is one string attached only...beat Trump.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)and refusing to campaign for their party it shows that there's a crack. Now's the time to make it bigger before the GOP has a chance to repair it.
Father and son refuse to campaign, Jeb refused to support, daughter /granddaughter has stated that HRC will be a good president and rumor has it that Barbara and Laura both support the Democratic nominee. There will never be a better time.
If HRC pulls them and loses the nomination she might be able to help keep them with us. And if Sanders loses the nomination he'll be invaluable in transferring support to her. It's all about timing.
seekthetruth
(504 posts).....just to foster a sense of unity?
How progressive......
Babel_17
(5,400 posts)What fuels the respective campaigns, and who makes them up, has been pretty well demonstrated, imo.
Broward
(1,976 posts)mooseprime
(474 posts)shows pretty much where we are. well. she "represents their values"--color me shocked. i just wish she represented ours. except for occasional hat tips to social progress, this candidate does not represent any core american values i'm aware of. that's what defines a cult of personality: you mold your allegiance to whatever the person is saying now rather than standing unmovingly on matters of principle. they're not leaving young people much maneuvering room for their future. this has every appearance of working out very, very poorly.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)important issues, Sanders?
SwampG8r
(10,287 posts)Your candidate is courting them openly and expressing her shared values with republicans
You should follow her lead she will need your help
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)your demand you are making on me.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Oh, wait, that was Clinton. Sanders stepped aside and let them have the mic.
What was your point again?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)regardless how slowly I stated it. It has all been said before. If you still do not get it, not my problem. But, look at his demographics. Proves me right more than you.
Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)...concocted by the HRC campaign and repeated by the media and the likes of you. It's so ridiculous. You can disagree with his proposals. You can say he's not a democrat, or that he only joined the party to run for president or whatever bs you want to say. Heck, you can just straight out not even like him as a person. But to say that those things don't matter to him and his campaign, and it's been said from day one, is so disingenuous and absurd. I'm sick of that line of attack.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Tomato. Tomauto.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)He didn't go scrambling to the right to woo them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)aspirant
(3,533 posts)last time I looked good ole Jeb was sitting on the sidelines scratching his head wondering why only 6% liked him,
mercuryblues
(14,531 posts)you all believe that Clinton should be reaching out to Bernie's supporters at this point, you must believe that his campaign is indeed over.
It can't be both ways. Bernie either still has a chance and should take it all the way to the convention or Clinton should be reaching out to bring Bernie supporters into the fold = his campaign is over.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)And so what. Hillary will need all the money she can get to fight off the Donald. He will get tremendous funds to go against her and I bet some Bernie folks who are beside themselves with hate for Hillary will even contribute to him. Wait and see.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)They are her natural base.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)while sharing Bush donors' values (her words), probably also believes that she isn't influenced by 6-figure speech bookings, and that she'll reign in the banks who are her buddies funding her.
There's only one small group whose side she is on -- the super rich who donate to her. Everybody else who votes for her is being used to win the election, and her interest in them ends there. This is very clear. She is playing her voters for chumps. She will gut their interests in a heartbeat if it suits her biggest donors' agenda.
Proceed Hillary, tell us more in case some still don't get it.
mercuryblues
(14,531 posts)was reaching out to Bernie supporters, while he is still campaigning, you would be calling her "queen and entitled" She can't win with some Bernie supporters, no matter what she does.
Today is Mother's day and Bernie supporters couldn't even stop themselves from mocking a MD article on Clinton. So don't even try to say you would not call her entitled if she reached out to Bernie supporters. No matter what she does the negativity is astounding.
desmiller
(747 posts)you and the other Hills better think of a way to help your candidate, because just like Trump, she's extremely unlikable. Her rap-sheet, aka record, speaks for itself.
mercuryblues
(14,531 posts)That you think stating a few things is damning you. Using works like unlikable and rap sheet is a sign of what? I would say your reply is evidence to support what I said.
senz
(11,945 posts)Look at some of the big-name Republicans that love her --
* Mark Salter, a top adviser to John McCain.
* Ex-CIA director General David Petraeus.
* Former US defense secretary Robert Gates.
Because she's such a "Democrat." And Bernie "isn't."
Because she's such a "Democrat." And Bernie "isn't."
Because she's such a "Democrat." And Bernie "isn't."
.
.
.
.
And... WTF ... are ... her ... followers?
xmas74
(29,674 posts)We still have a primary race. The GOP is over and the moderate Republicans are not happy with the presumptive nominee. Now's the time to make little hints about how their party has abandoned them and maybe the Democratic party has more to offer. Let's be honest:if you're not racist, misogynistic,homophobic and an overall asshole you might belong to the "big tent"party.
If Clinton wins the nomination she'll have time to work on Sanders supporters before the GE. Anything before and it just wouldn't work to her advantage.
Renew Deal
(81,859 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)...and she burned the bridges to the left, so she might as well look for votes close to home.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)which excludes Trump, even for many Rethugs.
Bernie reaches out to the gun-toting Independents. Hillary can reach out to moderate Republicans who are appalled by Trump.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)So, I guess I'll give my vote to someone who appreciates it.
thelordofhell
(4,569 posts)See how that works??
...if I had to choose between reaching out to someone that thought I was Satan or someone who used to think I was Satan until they saw The Donald, I know who I'd choose.
NanceGreggs
(27,814 posts)Millions of Americans are so nervous about Hillary, they made her the nominee - not you.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)for those who can afford her.