With a Heavy Heart, I Will Be Voting For Bernie Sanders in June and Not Hillary.

[David Zephyr]

I don't post much here anymore because of my eyesight, age and health.

After supporting President Obama in 2008 instead of Hillary, I posted here heartily long ago that I'd be with Hillary this time around.

But...I just can't.

Leaving aside her vote for the War in Iraq which was why I supported President Obama, I have to say that the nation building and regime change pursued in Egypt, then Libya and Syria has me shaking my head at how did my party wind up doing much of what George W. Bush did when he stupidly invaded Iraq.

How did we get here again? Look at what has happened in Libya. We didn't make it better. We really made it worse. Just like Iraq.

President Obama and Secretary of State Clinton inherited a truly dangerous world in 2009. President Obama deserves so much credit for saving us from George W. Bush's Great Recession (it really was a Depression). And President Obama kept the country safe. He honored his promise to bring our troops home from the two quicksand wars. I hope one day he gets the credit he so rightly deserves.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has had a remarkable career and picking up the pieces around the globe after the Bush/Cheney wars without end must have really been a hard thing to accomplish. And Hillary was one of the few voices that supported President Obama's decision to go after Osama bin Laden...when even Vice President Biden disagreed. She deserves a lot of credit for that. She gets it from me.

But then there is Egypt, and then Libya and then Syria. What is it about our leaders that they always want to raise their hand and be the 911 for the world. It rarely winds up well.

I will not engage in demeaning Hillary Clinton. She is a good woman. She is qualified to be President by any standard.

But this life-long Democrat has just crossed a point where I believe that Bernie, because of his judgement on the monumental issue of making war, will be the better President of our country.

[KingFlorez]

1. Good for you

It's symbolism if anything else, but everyone has the right to cast their vote the way they want to.

[JSup]

2. Thank you for...

...choosing to vote without demeaning someone else.

[riderinthestorm]

3. I remember you David. Be well and rest easy in voting, the most important thing.

[amborin]

4. K&R and best wishes to you!

[napi21]

5. David, I agree withyou and I alreadt IDI vote for Bernie in the Ga. primary.

I hope you can follow what I've decided to do after the nomination is finally decided and vote for the Dem. nominee. I still have my fingers crossed that Bernie can pull out a win, but it's really not looking very good for him.

As upset as her actions on Egypt make you, just try to imagine how utterly horrible a Trump presidency would be.

[Fawke Em]

6. Many of us long-time Democrats are there with you.

[Samantha]

7. Thank you for taking the time to explain your viewpoint and post it here

I agree with everything you say (for the most part). I remember a lot of your posts from when you were active, and I know you are an intelligent person who does not make a decision lightly. You put a lot of thought into your decisions.

Sanders' position on our interventions in wars is the first issue that riveted my attention to him. I think his position is the right position.

On a personal note, I hope your health issues stabilize, and we have the privilege of reading more of your thoughts.

Regards,

Sam

[JudyM]

42. So well-said!

[puffy socks]

8. I always find the war hawk argument interesting.

How exactly has Sanders done any better when he has voted for and supported far more military conflicts?


Somalia S J Res 45 - Authorization for Use of US Armed Forces, Yugoslavia 1999, Kosovo, Libya, the Gaza strip? and apparently Invading Iraq and liberating Iraq was a great idea in 98 when Bernie voted for HR 4655, the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998, which expressed that it should be the aim of the United States to remove Saddam Hussein from power.
President George W. Bush later used the Iraqi Liberation Act to provide justification for military action for the 2003 invasion.



He voted in favor of a $1 billion aid package for the coup government Ukraine

He supported Israel's assault on Gaza at a town hall meeting.

He voted HR 2159 - Foreign Operations FY98 Appropriations bill, which included: $3 billion for Israel, including $1.8 billion in military assistance and $1.2 billion in economic assistance; $2.12 billion for Egypt, including $1.3 billion in military assistance and $815 million in economic assistance; $770 million for former Soviet Republics; and $215 million for international narcotics control and law enforcement.

Bernie voted for HR 2465, which provided $4 billion for military construction, and he voted for HR 3196, which provided: $2.16 billion for military and economic assistance to Israel; $760 million for military and economic assistance to Egypt; $300 million for military and economic assistance to Jordan; and $285 million for international narcotics control.

He also voted in favor of HR 2800 - Foreign Operations Appropriations, FY 2004 bill, which granted $1.8 billion in military and economic assistance to Egypt and $2.2 billion for Israeli military assistance.


Bernie Sanders' Troubling History of Supporting US Military Violence Abroad
Why aren't we talking about Sanders' foreign policy more?

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-supporting-us-military-violence-abroad

[Dragonfli]

14. .

[Fumesucker]

16. How can I miss you when you won't go away?

[Art_from_Ark]

17. LOL

Is that one of those, um, socks I keep hearing about?

[JumpinJehosaphat]

18. Let's star with the 2003 Iraq vote. That vote was so consequential wouldn't you agree?

If Sanders is such a war hawk explain to us why he voted against the use of military action in 2003 in Iraq whereas Hillary Clinton voted in favour?

[ucrdem]

34. Not so consequential that he didn't vote to fund the Iraq war the same day:

On October 10, 2002, Senator Sanders voted against the Iraq AUMF, but on the same day, he voted to fund the Defense Department in fiscal year 2003:

https://votesmart.org/bill/3083/12790/27110/use-of-military-force-against-iraq#.VYZ9uba1qSo

https://votesmart.org/bill/3122/8511/27110/department-of-defense-appropriations-fiscal-year-2003#.VYZ8NLa1qSo

So Sanders' voting record is not as simple as some would have it.

[JumpinJehosaphat]

36. You're equating a bill funding the military as a whole to sanctioning the invasion of Iraq?

That's a stretch. Two points: Bernie is not a pacifist and he has said so. But he the difference between him and HRC is that he has displayed good judgment as evidence with his vote against the use of Military Force Against Iraq whereas Clinton voted for military action. Sanders noted at the time the potential catastrophe for Iraq and for US military personal for such an action with little upside. He was right and Clinton was wrong, hence her very late apology. Second, he voted against the Senate amended 2003 amended bill.

[JaneyVee]

48. Bernie voted for more wars and war funding than any candidate running.

Even voted on HJ RES 64.

[floriduck]

53. Once the troops are the line of fire, you don't abandon them.

Why would Bernie vote to prevent necessary armor and supplies be withheld just because he didn't want those troops there to begin with. Your claim fails the logic test of a grade school level.

[JaneyVee]

54. And Bernie voted to put them in the line of fire.

[ucrdem]

22. Long DU discussion of this article one year ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026675392#op

[morningfog]

25. You really didn't make it seem interesting.

[Peace Patriot]

37. Sanders may not be as good on war & peace issues as some people hope but...

...he is far and away--by many orders of magnitude--better than Hillary Clinton.

Clinton supported the dreadful fascist coup in Honduras, giving aid, comfort and lots of our money to the rat-bastards who had Berta Caceres murdered (indigenous anti-coup and environmental activist, winner of the Goldman Environmental Prize) and who are responsible for the rapes and murders of many women and gay activists in Honduras. Clinton supported the destruction of Honduran democracy.

Clinton laughed--LAUGHED--at the bayonet rape and murder of Gaddaffi in Libya! Check out the vid. "We came, we saw, he died!" she laughed. And now Libya is overrun with brutality, death and chaos, when before it was, at the least, an orderly society where most people had a decent life and all were given revenues from Libya's oil. Do you support the bayonet rape and murder of leaders who have done nothing whatever against our country? Clinton and her supporters don't dare look at the consequences of Clinton's actions--they are too horrible.

Clinton okayed weapons deals to the woman-hating Saudi Arabians and other Gulf states while they donated millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation. Those weapons are now being used by the Saudis to rip up Yemen and acquire that country. They are doing NOTHING to stop the brutal jihadists who have overrun countries that we have dismantled. But, hey, Clinton got a great slush fund out of it!

Clinton, of course, voted for the war on Iraq--that is, she voted FOR Cheney-Rumsfeld's "Project for a New American Century," the Neo-Con plan for world domination. Clinton now has one of the chiefs of PNAC, Robert Kagan, as her advisor. She also as Henry Fucking Kissinger as her close friend and advisor (two million people slaughtered in Southeast Asia and nearly 60,000 U.S. soldiers killed, for what? for WHAT? plus, tortures and mass murder in Chile and overthrow of Chile's democracy).

Bernie Sanders has no such history of relishing, and profiting from, and laughing at war and its horrors. He has told us that he is not a pacifist. He has laid out his policy of war as a last resort very clearly and also his opposition to "regime change" and to using military force with no clue as to what will happen next. Military force as a blunt instrument. Stupid use of military force, a la Bush, Clinton and the whole gang of stupidos and profiteers who cheered on the Iraq War, and the Neo-Cons who engineered it.

I will not defend his votes on those military appropriations bills. I think he should have voted against them. But I also know how he has worked in Congress, often in minority status: He works out compromises--for instance, that he would vote for it IF.... That is how he became known as the "Amendment king." On Bill Clinton's Crime Bill, for instance, he voted for it because he was able to get the Violence Against Women Act into the bill. He felt that this was so important that he compromised and voted for a bill with other provisions that he opposed and fought against. This is called legislating. You can't always get what you want.

Finally, Sanders is an honest man who obviously likes simple living and he is a relatively poor man for a U.S. senator. He does not do speeches for $225,000 a shot, to wealthy banksters and financiers; he has not run a pay-to-play shop out of a government office; he has no billion dollar slush fund that he falsely calls a "charity." There is no benefit for him in war, or in any other policy. He will make decisions judiciously and wisely in the interests of our country and our people. He is trustworthy. Clinton is not. He does not hang out with Neo-Cons and war criminals. Clinton does. He wrote and got passed the most comprehensive Veterans' care bill ever enacted. Clinton's only interest is her bank account and power. And she is a damned hypocrite on feminism. Ask the spirit of Berta Caceres!

[JumpinJehosaphat]

41. Great post!

[Martin Eden]

45. +1

Also, voting to fund military operations AFTER the decision has been made for deployment is not comparable to voting FOR the war in the first place.

Hillary apologists refuse to understand that.

[NCTraveler]

9. Well done. Thoughtful. Nt

[Art_from_Ark]

10. We still have troops involved in both of those quicksand wars

In fact, an announcement was made just last month that more troops were being called up and sent to Iraq.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/18/politics/defense-secretary-carter-iraq/

[PufPuf23]

11. Bet to you. Thank you. kr

[sadoldgirl]

12. I appreciate that OP.

That is a very good reason to vote for Bernie.
I have others as well, like her close relationship
with WallStreet and most large corporations, which
leads to a story like Honduras.

[grasswire]

13. thank you for your honesty and thoughtful post.

I suggested a couple of months ago here that people should ask themselves if they trust that Hillary will not send their sons and daughters and grandchildren to fight a war of empire/of choice/of aggression.

As you say, it's enough of a reason to not choose her.

[CorkySt.Clair]

15. Thanks for the update.

[Nye Bevan]

19. "Trump: My SCOTUS nominee may try to overturn Roe v. Wade"

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/05/11/trump-scotus-nominee-overturn-roe-v-wade/84223512/

Of course, when you're male that's less of an issue.

[morningfog]

24. What the fuck are you even talking about?

What fight are you trying to pick here?

Wrong thread?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Did you miss JUNE as a month and not NOVEMBER?

curious

[Nye Bevan]

28. Whoops, yes I did.

Sorry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. It happens to the best of us

[FlatBaroque]

20. Libya was also based on lies. People forget that.

[Barack_America]

21. Thanks for letting us know how you came to your decision. Nt

[The Second Stone]

23. We got here this time because you voted for Obama in 2008 and he was in

charge, and not Hillary Clinton. Because you make the perfect the enemy of the good. You are more than welcome to vote your conscience, however, you seem to be under the impression that the Secretary of State follows the lead of the President, and not the other way around. The only reason Obama did not vote for war in 2003 was because he was not in Congress.

Sanders generally voted for war funding, just like the other members of Congress.

[morningfog]

26. I fully agree.

Just want to pick one small nit. Obama still had troops in Afghanistan and has returned troops to Iraq.

[Gomez163]

29. Doesn't really matter. Bernie is toast.

[benny05]

46. Well the Dance Ain't Over

And folks should vote their conscience, especially in primaries. If HC is the best performer to you at the dance, so be it.

To the OP, it was a very thoughtful post. Bernie Sanders is the liberal I've waiting for. I was pleased to cast my vote for him and send him a few bucks here and there. To me, he is the best performer at the dance.

[Gomez163]

56. Its garbage time. Hillary is ahead 60-0 and Bernie is driving for a meaningless touchdown.

Go ahead do an end zone dance.

[benny05]

59. It's not 60 to Zero

He's not Marty O'Malley, after all.

Enjoy your evening.

[MariaThinks]

55. the more lies and distortions i keep hearing from bernie supporters, the happier i am that

Bernie is toast.

[Bleacher Creature]

31. Do whatever you need to do in June.

November is what really matters at this point.

[dchill]

32. You seem like a reasonable person, and I don't think...

you should have a heavy heart. Between the two, Bernie is clearly the real Democrat. His voting record alone demonstrates that. He doesn't like war, especially as a first resort or as a standard policy.

His positions on health care, jobs and wages, and the economy are far more Democratic than Hillary's, and there are cobwebs on his flip-flops, not a shiny new wax job.

Anyway, you should feel liberated by the fact of his liberalism. Not heavy-hearted.

And thank you.

[pmorlan1]

33. Thank you, David

and best wishes to you.

[flor-de-jasmim]

35. About that heavy heart...

I don't know about you, but my heavy heart this season is over the lengths the DNC has gone to hinder Bernie's candidacy in favor of Hillary, to the point of refusing to shine a light on voter suppression and fraud, and so much more.

[glinda]

38. I share your observations and most thoughtful post

Please take care of yourself. Hugs.

[GulfCoast66]

39. Your heart should not be heavy

We have two great candidates and you are voting for the one you feel is best.

I like Bernie but support Hillary although either would make a fine president.

As long as you will support the Democratic candidate in the general you have nothing to weigh down your heart.

[Tragl1]

40. I'm right there with you.

I had to take a break from the trolling and flamebaiting on DU, but I couldn't agree more with you.

[cherokeeprogressive]

43. Be well David.

[EndElectoral]

44. No need for a heavy heart. You've examined her record and seen the serious flaws in judgment.

and do not "leave aside her vote for the military regime change in Iraq."

There has been a tendency to minimalize this vote. This vote helped lead to hundreds of thousands of innocent dead people, it lead to the formation of ISIS, and it has cost the US billions and billions of dollars.

She said she made a mistake. No, she contributed to an absolute disaster, a genocide, and the formation of the major terrorist group we face today. Never minimalize it.

[MuseRider]

47. So good to see you again.

We are all getting older and sometimes it is just more than I can take. I just wanted to tell you hello and say that I hope at this point in time you are feeling well and doing equally well.

Bernie all the way for me.

[agracie]

49. Well said. Thank you.

[Uncle Joe]

50. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for sharing, David Zephyr.

[blm]

51. I'm with you ((DavidZephyr))

Love you and miss seeing you here.

[tirebiter]

52. What the OP refers to is called the Arab Apring

The ME chose to do it and now they have to live and die with the results

[Maven]

57. Interesting that you seem to give Obama a pass for the foreign policy missteps of his administration

and instead assign the blame to Hillary, who was in his cabinet.

I wonder why that is?

[emsimon33]

58. Well said!

[slipslidingaway]

60. Thank you, looking forward to voting for Sanders in June, be well!!! nt