Case for a Clinton indictment?

[pdsimdars]

A 20 year FBI agent said it's that negligence that could send her to prison for violating the federal Espionage Act. It calls for a 10 year sentence for anyone conviceted of "gross negligence" that permits information relating to national defense to be "removed from its proper place." Remember Hillary had over 2200 messages containing classified information and 22 of them were at the highest level of classification. They were on her private, unprotected server at home, NOT on the government server. Then she put her server at that Platte River company which was a mom and pop operation, run out of their apartment without even an alarm on the building.

Not only was the information not stored in "its proper place", but she also shared it with her staff and Sid Blumenthal who was not working for the government and had no security clearance.

For those who don't take this seriously.

Former CIA agent and whistle blower Jeffrey Sterling was sentenced to 3.5 years in prison for violating the Espionage Act because he provided classified information to a NYT reporter. Sterling was also convicted on obstruction of justice charges because a single email was missing from his account. Remember Hillary deleted 31,000 from her server, thousands of which contained classified material.

Sterling and Drake came forward to expose government misconduct and were prosecuted under the Espionage Act. Why then does Hillary Clinton get to mock the investigation, delete thousands of emails and run for President?

[Fairgo]

1. Rule of Law

I wish for nothing but its enforcement.

[aspirant]

8. Why is the rules

absolutely sacred at the NV and Philly conventions and not here?

[SCantiGOP]

55. I don't know, why is they?

Is this really all you have?

[99th_Monkey]

2. Oh that's only RW nut-job propaganda! Why are you spreading this information?

I thought I'd beat the usual suspects to the punch.

The Democratic Party must be seriously insane, to keep pushing for a nominee who's
got this sword of Damocles hanging over her head, who could be indicted on felony
charges any day now. It's un-fucking-believable.

[hrmjustin]

3. Sad that we have people here pushing this.

Can't wait till the primaries are over and we won't have to see this stuff on DU.

[okasha]

5. I wonder if a person can be indicted

for practicing law without a license on a message board.

[hrmjustin]

7. .

[COLGATE4]

10. Unfortunately, probably not.

If they could there'd be a few under indictment right now.

[AtomicKitten]

4. Good synopsis. It's stunning that her supporters don't grasp the gravity of this investigation.

[-none]

6. Her followers don't dare.

Kings, Queens and slightly lesser royalty are above the law.

[JudyM]

20. Nor do they care.

[Major Nikon]

9. Results...

On Sat May 21, 2016, 06:24 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Case for a Clinton indictment?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512024121

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This is a rw smear on DU against a leading Democrat. We don't attack Democrats with right wing propoganda on DEMOCRATIC Underground. Please vote to hide.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat May 21, 2016, 06:31 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: If we vote to set community standards, then I think that we should hide posts making wild, unsubstantiated claims. If someone wants to read that they can search for other websites that make wild accusations against democrats. DU should be better than this
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: How is an active, publicly-known FBI investigation a "rw smear"? How absurd. Vote to leave.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Whether the HRC fan club likes this or not, it's going to be an issue during the election. They should stop trying to prevent discussion of the topic in hopes it will just go away.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[pdsimdars]

13. Thank God! I have been hidden once just for saying Hillary was a corporate candidate.

Thank God this jury had sense and reason prevail. I just presented actual facts and cases. I don't know how to make it any less offensive. It is something that needs to be thought about BEFORE the fertilizer hits the fan (as it were).
Those were things that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.
As Colbert might put it, does reality now have a RW smear bias to it?
Thanks one and all.

[RobertEarl]

44. Juror #2

#2 should never be allowed another chance at being on a jury. That person is anti-free speech and would burn books given the chance.

DU is in bad shape when a jury almost decides to censor your OP. Skinner's great idea is going down and H is the main weight dragging it down.

After H retires in a month or two, DU will become great again!

[pdsimdars]

56. I keep telling them that the jury system is a good idea but it does need some adjustments

like removing jurors from the pool who don't exhibit the qualities to fairly judge.

[Electric Monk]

60. The DU Admins do quietly remove jury privileges when they want to for whatever reasons they want to

but in a totally non-partisan manner, I'm sure

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125910326

[pdsimdars]

64. Oh, of course!

What kind of person would think otherwise?

[derpderpderp]

61. The FBI is a rw smear? If it was Bernie under investigation you wouldn't think it was a rw smear.

[COLGATE4]

11. Try and educate yourself on the vast difference between

'negligence' and 'gross negligence'. Then you'll understand why she will not be indicted.

[spin]

12. If Hillary is indicted could Obama pardon her before her prosecution?

Assuming the indictment occurs after Hillary is declared to be the Democratic Party's candidate and that Obama pardons her, how would that effect her chances to be elected?

If the FBI recommends an indictment before the convention how would the SuperDelegates react? What if the FBI recommends indictment but the DOJ refuses to proceed or decides to sit on it?

I personally feel the FBI will find some flunkies at the State Department or one of Hillary's aides to blame but I could be totally wrong.

It is also possible that an indictment might depend on how Hillary stacks up against Trump in the polls in the next few months. If so and it happens before an open convention would Bernie be the choice or would Biden ride in to save the day? If that were to happen would the Bernie voters stay home or vote for Trump?

We do indeed live in interesting times.

[pdsimdars]

14. All they may do is RECOMMEND indictment. If the DoJ actually follows through it could take YEARS.

It will be a big mess.
Believe me, Trump will be making the most of this. If we don't bring it up now, it's not like Trump will overlook it. He's already started to talk it up. Let's get the heads out of the sand, find out about it and make a plan. That's much preferable to be caught off guard.

[spin]

17. I suspose Hillary could pardon herself and Bill if necessary. ...

If so (and it's a big if) Hillary has a real good reason to win this election.

I hate to imagine what the political fallout would be if Hillary faces prosecution while in office. It would weaken her presidency both here and around the world.

On the other hand I value the rule of law in our form of government. If Hillary actually did do something seriously illegal, she should face prosecution the same as any normal citizen. The rule of law if applied equally to all helps insure our leaders abide by our laws. I'm not sure that has been the case for the last several decades.

For the sake of our nation I can only hope the FBI makes a decision soon.

[pdsimdars]

23. You really think the American people would elect someone under indictment for espoinage?

Think that through. I don't think President Trump would pardon her, because that's who would be president if she is the nominee.

[spin]

27. I believe a percentage of voters whould continue to support Hillary. ...

Chances are it would not be high enough to get her elected. However she will probably be running against Trump. That might put her in the Oval Office.

[pdsimdars]

57. She is going down in the polls WRT Trump. It is a clear trend.

Bernie is going up.

Do you want a Democrat in the WH or do you want to take a chance? Hillary is risky.

[spin]

59. I will admit that I am not a strong Hillary supporter. ...

Possibly because for many years before I retired I held a government security clearance. Assuming the allegations have any basis in fact, I would have been most likely staring at prison bars today if I would have done anything similar to what Hillary did by allowing classified email to exist on her dark server.

I believe the rule of law and its equal application to all including those who hold high office is extremely important in a well functioning representative democracy. Of course at this time the results of the FBI investigation are not known.

What I suspect will happen is the FBI will find some flunkies at the State Department or some of Hillary's aides to charge. Even if this is what will happen it will damage Hillary and make her an even weaker candidate. Many voters will feel that Hillary is largely responsible for what ended up on her server and she should be held accountable rather than her underlings.

But it is possible that the FBI will recommend Hillary be indicted. If this happens before the Democratic convention many SuperDelegates may desert Hillary and cause an open convention. I seriously doubt the Democratic Party will support Bernie in that situation but instead would convince Joe Biden to ride in to save the day. This could lead to a total disaster on Election Day for the Democratic Party as Bernie supporters would either stay home or vote for Trump.

Trump like Bernie feels money has largely corrupted our political system. While there is the possibility that Trump might actually be a great president there is the equal chance he would be a total disaster. I'm not sure our nation should take the risk.

I don't totally agree with Bernie on all his positions but at least I know where he stands and believe that he will try his best to accomplish his goals. I currently enjoy what have often been called socialist programs like Social Security and Medicare so I feel socialism in moderation can be a good thing.

I also feel Bernie is absolutely correct when he says we are rapidly becoming an oligarchy. I would rather live in a nation where the 1% do not own those we elect. Unfortunately I fear both the RNC and the DNC are quite happy riding the current gravy train.

Hillary is indeed "risky." We can agree on that. Bernie is in my opinion the far better candidate but unfortunately the fix may be in.

If the election turns out to be Hillary vs Trump I may either have to sit this election out or write in Bernie on my ballot.

[pdsimdars]

65. Well said

AND
This is what I hear from anyone who has had any experience with security clearance. Namely, that if they had done what Hillary did, they would probably be in prison right now.

Did you know about those 22 top secret emails, in one article of the NTY right at the end they mentioned that in Top Secret there are categories (or something like that) and while they don't have the content 18 of them were about human assets, that is, the identities of agents. Not necessarily 18 different agents, could be many of them about the same agent. BUT, how do you think you would have been treated if you had that on your computer at home?

I read of a sailor who sent a selfie of him on his submarine to his girlfriend. Unfortunately there was a sonar in the background and now he faces 20 year.

A Marine in the middle east saw an ISIS member walking around dressed as a policeman and he reported it to his superiors. But he sent it on his gmail account and now he also faces 20 years.

I do not see how you can prosecute ANYONE ELSE again for things such as this if you allow Clinton to walk away.

[brush]

28. Trump won't make anymore of it than you guys

Last edited Sat May 21, 2016, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Everyday there are "wishing and hoping" post for an indictment.

Take a break for a day or two. You'll feel better.

And btw, June 7 is just couple of weeks away so it'll be all over soon.

[grasswire]

32. DC votes on June 14

Thank you very much.

[brush]

41. Oh, right. Like DC is gonna vote for Sanders

[Jim Lane]

46. Ford pardoned Nixon when there wasn't even an indictment.

I vaguely recall that there might have been some muttering at the time that maybe this wasn't technically proper, but I'm not sure that the issue was even raised. Obviously the objection, if any, wasn't taken seriously.

For political purposes, it doesn't matter. Indictment with or without conviction, pardon with or without indictment, or leaked recommendation of indictment -- all would be electoral poison. I doubt any of those will occur. There's more chance (though still not a great chance) that a lower-level flunky could be indicted. Then the question would be whether Clinton's assertion of ignorance (about the flunky's conduct) was plausible.

[spin]

47. I have long suspected that some flunky will be picked and thrown under the bus. ...

That seems to always be the result of an investigation into an extremely important person. It does sometimes seem that a privileged few in our nation are so important that the rule of law simply doesn't apply to them.

[PufPuf23]

15. In practice, the laws in cases like this only apply to whistle-blowers and scape goats.

Hillary Clinton is neither and as such is unlikely to be prosecuted.

[pdsimdars]

24. Is that what Gen. Petreas was?

[PufPuf23]

29. General Petraeus was convicted of a misdemeanor charge of mishandling classified information.

Petraeus provided classified information to his biographer / girl friend who had a security clearance.

Petraeus lost his job at CIA and paid a $100,000 fine and two years probation. Petraeus retained a military pension of over $200,000 per year.

Petraeus could have been convicted of a felony got off light.

Petraeus had a serious malfeasance that was not discovered in his confirmation hearings for CIA.

IMO some insiders probably were gunning for Petraeus to take a fall or be out a job.

Note my post was about what would likely happen to Hillary Clinton not what was just.

[grasswire]

33. link for your assertion? nt

[PufPuf23]

34. I don't approve of my assertion but it seems to be the general pattern alas.

Look at the malfeasance by elected and appointed officials and squires of the corporate and observe that they are frequently held to a different standard of justice.

The link is my cynicism regards anything happening to Hillary Clinton even though it is obvious that her actions were wrong.

[PAMod]

16. Not everyone agrees

http://lawnewz.com/politics/nothing-has-changed-legally-there-still-isnt-enough-to-prosecute-hillary-clinton-based-on-what-we-know/

[EndElectoral]

18. Obama would pardon her anyway.

[Octafish]

19. ACLU said it's un-constitutional to jail Manning...

...while President Obama lets Hillary off the hook.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512024569

[JudyM]

21. So begins the spiral of loosening of all sensible legal restrictions.

[Octafish]

22. It's like who gets to make the law...

...only those who benefit from the law: the rich and super rich.

They also decide who gets to go to jail. Small world.

Remember Scooter Libby writing to NYT reporter Judy Miller when she was behind bars for refusing to name a source?

Scooter Libby, in an email to Steno Judy Miller of NYT:

"Out West, where you vacation, the aspens will already be turning," Mr. Libby wrote. "They turn in clusters, because their roots connect them."

http://warisacrime.org/node/3677

Scooter got a pardon. Judy got a new job. Bush and Cheney walk free. How's Gov. Siegelman doing these days?

[pdsimdars]

26. It is deadening. But I do think if the FBI recommends indictments that should mean something.

And God knows, from what is just out there in public, there is more than enough evidence.

[redstateblues]

36. pulled that right out of a place where the sun don't shine

[JudyM]

66. That'd be a shot of justice into the system. Public airing of such egregious "errors in judgment"

are sorely needed.

[JudyM]

67. Sobering perspective, thanks for the not so far back throwback, Octafish.

[spin]

48. Manning is just one of the "little people." (n/t)

[Tarc]

25. *clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*clap*

[redstateblues]

30. Another Trump enabling post-from a BSS

[BillZBubb]

35. Wake up red, your Goddess is in the deep end without a life preserver.

It has nothing to do with trump. She most likely violated several laws and the FBI is closing in.

The only way this is about trump is if the FBI recommends Her Highness be indicted--then trump wins. And that will be YOUR FAULT. Don't say we didn't warn you.

[redstateblues]

37. Trump enabler post

[BillZBubb]

40. Logic just isn't your strong suit. It is a Hillary puts us in a bad spot post.

She's under investigation by the FBI. Do you not get how dangerous that is to the party?

If she is the nominee and the FBI finds any legal problems with what she's done, trump wins. You are eager to take that risk, I'm not.

[bvf]

53. Seated bluster.

Props to you-know-who, if you're there.

[liberalnarb]

31. The FBI probably will indict her.

Even though there is no good reason to. They will wait until the GE. The head of the FBI is a slimy repuke. This whole situation is extremely dangerous for Dems. I wish DUers would stop pushing for it. Its gonna bite us in the ass.

[BillZBubb]

38. Stop pushing for what? Pushing for a Hillary nomination?

That's what will bite us in the ass. If she's not the nominee it won't matter what the FBI recommends.

[840high]

39. I disagree with you. There

is good reason.

[Zambero]

43. The FBI has no authority to indict anyone

The "I" stands for investigation, not indictment. Investigation. It's what they do.

[liberalnarb]

45. Smart. Thank you. The "FBI is going to indict Hillary" idea is thrown around everywhere.

People don't seem to analyze these things. Myself included.

[spin]

49. The FBI can recommend an indictment. ...

The final decision will be up to Attorney General, Loretta Lynch.

Rumors are if she doesn't indict Hillary after the recommendation, the FBI will leak details of the case to the public and perhaps there may be mass resignations at the FBI.

I have no idea if there may be any truth to these rumors.

[Zambero]

54. Thank you. "Recommend" and "Indict" are two different things

They may or may not recommend. They will not indict. Even J. Edgar Hoover could not have pulled that one off. And yet some here continue to salivate with the prospect that the FBI will somehow jump the gun and serve papers on their own. Sorry folks. And yes, in this day of info overload and mass speculation, as noted their are plenty of rumors being hatched, which rarely transpire as envisioned by their originators.

[pdsimdars]

58. So, you're OK with a candidate running for President who has been recommended for

indictment by the FBI for ESPIONAGE? That's OK with you?

If so, what have things come to? How far down the rabbit hole do we have to go before people get a grip on where we are? This is how great civilizations sink.

If you have no rule of law then you have no country.

Top people in the intelligence community have said that if they had done what Hillary did, they would have lost their job and probably be in prison.

And all you care about is "winning" and not the rule of law? Do you realize how self defeating that is?

[Zambero]

69. Has that happened yet?

Espionage? Maybe, perhaps, close enough? Catch me up in case I've missed something. Meanwhile, I'm off to Trump University. Majoring in political theatre.

[Zambero]

42. Isn't political campaign posturing a blast?

You can pretend to be an on-board progressive and still employ all the classic right-wing Swift Boat tactics. After all, this is how Bush II managed to pull off a second term. It's always about presenting the worst of a worst worse case scenario. Repeat often. The verdict? Guilty as charged, in advance of any legitimate charges of course. Pull out all the stops, and check in with Faux News every now and then to make sure the talking points are correct. And if exposed as a Trump troll, hey, at least you gave it your best shot!

[senz]

50. I've wondered if the Clintons have enough political power at this point

that they can affect the odds of an indictment.

About a week ago, there was a discussion here about a notorious billionaire pedophile getting off with a very short sentence after donating $3.5 million to the Clinton Foundation.

Here was my comment asking about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1958552

The article simply gave the fact of the donation and the subsequent light sentence. So there could be some other reason why he was given such a light sentence.

But if they do have that kind of power, it would make sense of Hill's claim that she will never be indicted.

[Live and Learn]

51. Interesting. nt

[MFM008]

52. oh my

[Time for change]

62. because she's part of the establishment

God, I hope that there's at least a recommendation for an indictment prior to the convention.

Then we'll see just how reckless the Democratic Party can be in their long and aggressive attempt tp prevent a Sanders nomination.

[pdsimdars]

63. People who are really paying attention don't see who the FBI can NOT recommend an indictment

If they don't, they'll have to explain how almost 2200 classified documents which include at least 22 that are Top Secret, many are SAP (above Top Secret classification level), how it's OK to have those on a private, non-secure, non-government server. How is that legal? I want to hear that explanation.

Or how you can remove the classified markings from a message in order to send it on a non-government, non-secure line. (they have emails from Hillary asking a staff member to do just that). How is that legal?

And why the above and a number of other things are apparently OK for Hillary to do and yet others are in prison for doing the same things. How is that? I want that explained.

[Fawke Em]

68. Hell, what she's ADMITTED to is a crime.

But so many people here have Clinton Investigation Fatigue that they can't see a real issue when it's staring them right in the face.

[Zambero]

70. The establishment. Which one?

There are so many different and conflicting establishments out there that happen to be sworn enemies of one another that it boggles the mind.