The real world vs. the world of many of the Sanders supporters.

[RBInMaine]

1) A real "political revolution" isn't about simply demanding, screaming, yelling, and fist-pounding about "the establishment" and "corruption." It isn't just about coming to rallies, yelling and shouting, and voting for Bernie in a primary. It is years-long, tough, hard, complex work involving party-building, creating an effective new media, getting progressives elected to office at all levels up and down the ballot, organizing numerous progressive organizations into one large national force, and so on. After this primary campaign, will Bernie and his followers continue their "revolution," or will it all be over? Because a "revolution" is much more than one campaign. Just look at any major revolution is history, political or otherwise.

2) The Democratic Party primary process is most definitely not "rigged" or "corrupt" or "fraudulent" or any of that other malarkey. None of that has any basis in fact whatsoever. No one on Hillary's side is claiming that the 21 primaries/caucuses Bernie has won were won "fraudulently" or because of a "rigged system." So enough is enough on that score.

3) It is one thing to want free tuition, Medicare of All, etc. but a very, very different thing to get such huge and complex policies enacted by the government. I like the goals, but it just isn't that simple. A real revolution could help, but that means taking back the entire Congress by large margins and also state governments by large margins to prevent state level court challenges, etc. Again, the revolution has to be a national, YEARS-LONG project, not just one primary election. (And as of now, even with the "revolution," Hillary has three million more votes and Bernie has fewer votes that either Hillary or Obama had in '08.)

4) Math is math is math. Bernie ALWAYS knew coming in as a Democrat for the first time and going up against a much more well-known national level candidate was going to be VERY challenging. That he is losing the primary cycle is NO SURPRISE AT ALL. Just go back and look at his own statements very early on. He can take comfort and satisfaction in all he has been able to accomplish, exceeding expectations, but he just doesn't have the numbers to win. Simple as that. And when you don't win, you end with grace and a spirit of unity, just as Hillary did in '08 and just as other have done throughout our history.

5) Yes, there is justified frustration. Yes, there is political and economic change that needs to happen. We all agree. But it is VERY complex stuff, and it is just not going to happen instantly. Creating a real progressive long-haul political movement can help, but it has to be done well and for the longterm.

6) Voting merely out of anger and frustration doesn't always produce the best results by any means. Here in Maine, many people voted for Paul Lepage for governor out of "frustration." Look what they got. They got a ridiculous race-baiting foul-mouthed radical right wing FOOL who can't work with others and whose job approval is in the low 40's at best. Many people are supporting Trump out of "frustration with the status quo." If, heaven forbid, Trump was able to win the presidency, we would get a national version of LePage ON STEROIDS. We can't let that happen. As Bernie says, it would be a disaster for the country. So the paramount goal at the end of the day must be defeating the unqualified lunatic Trump. Sitting out, voting write-in or third party, or, my goodness, actually voting for the crazed Trump would be, again, as BERNIE SAYS, a complete disaster. There is a BIGGER cause than any primary campaign.

[cantbeserious]

1. Reliably Spreading Establishment FUD - Meme 67

eom

[JaneyVee]

16. Truth hurts sometimes.

[RBInMaine]

34. "Establishment establishment establishment bla bla bla..." YAWN.

[cantbeserious]

51. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[anigbrowl]

37. Sad that the best response you can come up with is a meme. Very shallow response

But typical of immature political thinkers.

[cantbeserious]

50. Your Opinion Only - Others See The World Much, Much Differently

eom

[merrily]

2. Another clueless post

[Demsrule86]

5. Time to hang it up.

June is almost here....Bernie will not survive June as a candidate...should be gone already. It doesn't matter how many silly polls you post or how much you adore him...he will not be the nominee in the fall.

[skepticscott]

6. Sanders supporters wonder why they are disrespected...this is why

Hand-waving dismissal of sensible political arguments, based in reality.

Let's start with #1 above. You are hereby challenged to lay out, point by point, what is "clueless" about this:

A real "political revolution" isn't about simply demanding, screaming, yelling, and fist-pounding about "the establishment" and "corruption." It isn't just about coming to rallies, yelling and shouting, and voting for Bernie in a primary. It is years-long, tough, hard, complex work involving party-building, creating an effective new media, getting progressives elected to office at all levels up and down the ballot, organizing numerous progressive organizations into one large national force, and so on. After this primary campaign, will Bernie and his followers continue their "revolution," or will it all be over? Because a "revolution" is much more than one campaign. Just look at any major revolution is history, political or otherwise.

[merrily]

9. I have less than no compunction about dismissing what should be dismissed.

Included in the category of what should be dismissed is the four billionth DU Op dissing Bernie and his supporters.

" You are hereby challenged to lay out, point by point"

LOL! Get over yourself.

[skepticscott]

11. You prove my point perfectly

You think that by just declaring things often enough and loudly enough, you can make them true. You think things should just magically become the way you want them because you want them. But in the real world, facts and evidence are needed to back up claims. You obviously have none of either.

[merrily]

12. Save your personal insults for someone who cares.

[skepticscott]

20. Nice try, but there were no "personal insults" in my post

Only an outline of the flaws in your thinking.

Thanks for proving my point again.

[RBInMaine]

59. If 4 billion have dissed Bernie, at least 20 billion have dissed Hillary. Thanks for the hypocrisy.

[kaleckim]

52. Disrespected by whom?

He's the one polling much better versus Trump, is more liked and trusted, he does much better with independents and his stances on the issues in right in the middle of popular opinion. He's disrespected by people that haven't earned respect and lie, slime and manipulate people in order to maintain power. Your candidate is the second most unpopular major party nominee in polling history and is now tied nationally and in key swing states with the most unpopular candidate in polling history.

[skepticscott]

61. Try reading for a change

I didn't say Sanders, I said his supporters. Oops.

And where did I say Clinton is "my" candidate? Nowhere. I voted for Sanders in my primary, FYI.

Oops.

[RBInMaine]

35. It is truly "clueless" to deny reality, math, and cold hard facts.

[anigbrowl]

40. Another substance-free non-rebuttal

Some of you apparently think that being rude is a substitute for an argument. That's why you're losing.

[Yurovsky]

3. Real world is Bernie beats Trump by a mile. HRC? Not so much...

THAT is the reality that the HRC folks deny on a daily basis.

[Demsrule86]

8. No he does not

He loses in a landslide in the real world and not poll world after having been painted as the second coming of Stalin.

[riversedge]

14. Think about what the OP is saying before posting again. Really try.

[RBInMaine]

36. UNVETTED Bernie hasn't had a single negative ad against him. He would be CRUSHED in the GE.

[skepticscott]

4. The "Bernie or Bust" group of Sanders Supporters don't seem to be able to

articulate a realistic plan for getting the country to the point they want it to be. As you point out, it is a long, complicated process, and requires a long attention span to accomplish anything meaningful. Even getting Sanders elected would be only the first step in a decades-long effort. A frightening number of them don't seem to grasp that "pitchforks and torches" is not a plan. Throwing the country against the wall, breaking it into pieces, and then crossing your fingers that those pieces somehow re-assemble themselves into something better is a plan only to the highly privileged or the reality-challenged.

Regardless of what happens in November, we'll get a real idea of how committed the Sanders supporters are to real change in 2018, when we'll see how many of them get off their asses and vote in the mid-terms. Yeah, no one will care about them tweeting from voting in a congressional election, and it's not sexy and won't let them feel "activist", but that's where things get done...or where progress is halted.

[Maru Kitteh]

24. And BS will be the nominee because they want him to be

And the country will magically fall in line after he is nominated because they want it to. It's the logic of a poorly developed narcissist; an elementary-school playground "captain." If it doesn't go down the way they want, they enact plan B. Shove your opponent in the mud and declare that they "cheated."

Thank goodness only the tiniest minority of SBS are BorB in real life. Most SBS supporters are focused on the goal of ensuring Trump never gets anywhere near the White House. Thought of what he would do to the decor alone should be enough to give any sane person reason to fight against him. Never mind the utter chaotic and disastrous meltdown that would surely cripple and embarrass this nation for generations. It cannot happen.

[Kentonio]

30. Why would they bother when the party will just run an establishment candidate

Who will have much higher financial backing, endorsements, media access etc? This campaign has shown progressives exactly how the deck is stacked, there just isn't a path to victory in a race where your opponents can change the rules to suit themselves.

It will be interesting to see how many are motivated to vote at all, given their only options are the GOP devil or a continuation of an unpleasant status quo.

[skepticscott]

32. Feel free to show us all the times

that not voting has brought about change. But I won't hold my breath.

And you're another perfect illustration of my point. You don't get exactly the candidate you want elected, NOW, and so you just give up and say the whole system is rigged and you're not going to play any more.

You want more progressive candidates in office? Go out and recruit them. And don't be so silly as to start with the office of president, where a third party candidate has zero chance right now. Start with local and state offices. Work to reverse the entrenched gerrymandering that keeps Republicans in control in the House. Get the progressive millennials off their asses for the midterm Congressional elections and elections for state legislatures. Stop whining like an 8 year old that didn't get a pony for their birthday.

[Kentonio]

33. Why? Why waste the decades of effort, just so your friends can crush any progressive change anyway?

If you need us, accommodate us in the platform. If you don't, then why does it matter what we do?

[anigbrowl]

42. Oh god it's like arguing with a child

The Working Families party seems to be doing quite well in several states. Go study what they're doing, it works and it aligns with your goals. Your claim that it's all rigged and your efforts will be crushed by insiders is just standard American fringe paranoia; you assume the truth of your worldview and so dismiss any information that contradicts it. This is a terrible self-defeating way to go through life.

[Kentonio]

56. Nice to see you share the same sneering condescension as your joke of a candidate.

News flash, you're not going to win without us and calling us children or patting us on the head and patronizing us about how we just gosh darn don't know how the system works is not helping your position any.

Smart people recognize that sometimes 'just work harder' isn't the solution to any problem, but rather a pathetic distraction put out by people who already have the game sewn up and don't want to risk having to change what is for them a highly profitable situation.

You want to call me a child? Fine, I call you a gullible puppet who supports a candidate who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

[creeksneakers2]

55. Concessions were made on the platform committee

Do you think it will make a difference? Probably all it will do is give radicals attached to Bernie a stage to cause an uproar. It won't get any votes.

20% of Bernie voters are planning to vote for Trump. Bernie should be ashamed of that. He should be out working to change that instead of trying to start a brawl over the platform.

[Kentonio]

57. Why the assumption that people connected to his campaign are radicals?

I've never yet seen a good explanation of what exactly is supposed to be so radical about Bernie Sanders. He's the most socially progressive member of the senate but economically he's a Dem from half a century ago. He wants people in good jobs so they're not having to rely on heavy welfare, wants corporations paying a decent tax rate and not allowed to screw over normal people, and wants to stop American jobs being shipped abroad piecemeal. How exactly is any of that radical?

It's become a weird alternative universe where the guy who talks sense and plays pretty nice is portrayed as a dangerous wild eyed radical, while the dishonest, attack minded corporatist is portrayed as the progressive poster child. It's frankly bizarre.

[creeksneakers2]

63. I don't call Bernie radical

But at least one of the guys he's putting on the platform committee is.

We are way past the Democrats of 50 years ago. We've expanded the social state since then.

Hillary is not a corporatist. That's a left wing smear. She has a very liberal voting record and her proposals are well to the left of center. I don't know of anybody promoting her as a progressive poster child.

[Kentonio]

64. Many of us believe her voting record was carefully crafted for her White House run.

Perhaps we're wrong and she'll be a progressive in office. I'm more than willing to accept I could simply be too cynical and jaded, but I guess we'll see. Personally I think she'll favor the same corporate interests as she has cosied upto in the past.

[RBInMaine]

38. Yup. Screeching and yelling and instant gratification is NO "revolution."

[Thinkingabout]

7. K & R, good post, yes this process will take years to complete.

Just as Sanders has endorsed DWS opponent he is just now making a statement about electing down ticket candidates and making any real effort to fund raise for them. So far he gave $1000 for down ticket candidates. It isn't just about electing a president, we need the rest of the pieces of the puzzle.

[Jack Bone]

10. I take umbridge w/ you saying...

"The Democratic Party primary process is most definitely not "rigged" or "corrupt" or "fraudulent""

I don't think that we are saying that...If you choose to look, you might find that we have our reservations against the party leadership, not the party itself. There is a yuuuuuuge difference.

[RBInMaine]

41. You are parroting hyperbolic conspiracy theories void of evidence.

Even if a system is not perfect, that doesn't mean there is some widespread corruption or "rigged" system. Enough of that nonsense.

[anigbrowl]

43. I have chosen to look and quite a lot of Sanders supporters are saying exactly that

Some of them right here in this thread. Don't be disingenuous.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

13. 35 Soul Crushing Facts About Income Inequality Courtesy Clinton and Rahm Emanuel Democrats & Rs

But let's vote for more inequality because electing the first woman is much more important!

http://www.salon.com/2015/07/15/35_soul_crushing_facts_about_american_income_inequality_partner/

What's that you say? "I got mine!" Very Republican of you, and you don't even realize how similar you are to them.

[Scuba]

15. Camp Weathervane attacked Bernie's policies and it backfired. So then they attacked ...

... Bernie's character, but that backfired too.

Now they're reduced to trying to attack Bernie's supporters.







Pathetic.






.

[anigbrowl]

44. And yet Somehow Clinton has a substantial lead of both voters and pledged delegates

So I'm not seeing how this has backfired on her. Reading your description you'd think she was in second place...only she's not. This is why we're not taking you very seriously right now.

[My Good Babushka]

17. There are people working, just not you, or your cohorts

Occupy Wall Street, started in 2011 and has spread to 100 cities, as a movement against social and economic inequality it can be seen as one of the many organizations that are starting to push back against corporate establishment politics, along with many anti-war organizations and pro-environment organizations. So it's flatly untrue that there's no "years-long, tough, hard, complex work involving party-building". Your democratic establishment is just working for the other side.

[baldguy]

18. I MY GOD YES! +1000 YES!

Every victory for Bernie is an affirmation of the revolution, no matter how slight it is, and in spite of whether or not it actually moves his campaign forward.

Every loss is a sign of corruption, and not a sign that Democrats really don't like him or that his advisors & campaign staff are incompetent.

Every issue has a simple solution - and Saint Bernie has that solution, ignoring that these issues have been grappled with for years, decades, centuries & millennia.

Every criticism for Sanders is an attack by the elite establishment oligarchy, and not simply observations by normal, intelligent people.

Sanders needs to go on to keep the grift going, so he's going to spend the last few weeks of his campaign lying to his supporters.

[Vinca]

19. Another day another RBInMaine slam on Bernie supporters.

I expect an engraved invitation from this poster requesting I do not vote for Hillary in November. That's what the continual posts denigrating Bernie supporters amount to. With supporters like this, Hillary doesn't need enemies.

[anigbrowl]

45. You're going tobase your vote on how someone treated you on a message board eh?

Great political thinker you are.

[Vinca]

60. Let me guess . . . Hillary supporter? Good work.

[ScreamingMeemie]

21. My Real World... You are Welcome to Read About It...

6 a.m.-The alarm goes off, and I drag myself out of bed (has it really been 6 hours?). Take 4 medications. Gently rouse my son, get asked to return at 6:20 (this has been going on for years ) Turn on my computer. Get the coffee going.

6:20 a.m.-Beg my son to get up. He has two weeks left until graduation, and it takes all my energy to get him to want to finish. Check emails for client. Begin first order (copywriting) for the day. Write as fast as I can.

7:00 a.m.-Listen to ensure my son is finishing getting ready. Kiss him at the door, thinking about how very much he looks like his father... feel my breath catch in my throat.

7:05-Write continuously.

9:00-"Break for Bills" Highlight where I am falling short, and make adjustments to my schedule to make room for more work.

9:30 a.m.-Write

12 p.m. Working lunch (either an egg or a sandwich)

12-6 p.m.-Write... welcome son home at 1:30. Listen to him gripe about how all I do is work these days.

6 p.m. Serve dinner and back to the computer.

Write, write, write...

Write, write, write...

12 midnight (if I am lucky)- hang it up for the day, take meds, go to bed and try to get my mind to turn off.

(I've also had to work realtors into the equation lately because I have to sell my home)

That's what my real world is. My Real World is also: missing my husband and treating others with respect. Treat others with respect, and you might get it back someday RB.

I support Bernie. I am a worn-out 45-year-old mother. I will continue to support Bernie because Hillary doesn't care about working-class women like me. I stick with the facts instead of devolving to issue-lacking name-calling.

Thank you for reading... if you made it this far. I have to go back to work.

~Laura

[GeorgeGist]

22. +1

[uponit7771]

23. K&R, you'll get the usual ad homs... well, no... you've got more than usual OP's based of facts

... get trashed the hardest.

Not letting this sink

[frylock]

25. Oh good. Someone who can't even get Dems elected in their own state..

is going to lecture us about the "real world."

[tonyt53]

26. Hell Bernie's supporters will have lost interest by November anyway.

[Shandris]

27. Why, this has 'Shandris, deal with this' written all over it!

1. The French Revolution, among many others, would disagree with this assessment of a 'real' revolution. Yes, I understand you tried to qualify it with 'political', but as 'all is political', it's redundant. Incidentally, all the things you described were typically revolutionary, but I'd like to point out that none of those actually have anything to do with helping people. They have to do with rebuilding the exact same power structure they're replacing. No actual revolution aimed at doing good would do that.

2. Unless you can testify as to the intents of every single person working in this system, you have no status with which to authoritatively claim it 'pure'. In fact, given the number of people, it is almost laughable to suggest there is NO ONE corrupt in the entire organization.

3. No, it isn't. It is in your interpretation of how things must go.

4. Math is math. Control what can go into one end of the equation and you control what comes out. Or, in more simple terms everyone who has ever used a computer knows, 'Garbage in Garbage out'.

5. No it isn't. Complexity exists only in your mind and in the myths (memes) you've bought into as 'the political reality'.

6. Correct. However, voting the same way will result in the same. You're aware of this. There actually is a better answer than voting in anger, but I'm not going to lay out what it is. That's for each person to figure out on their own in time.

[wendylaroux]

28. ..

[My Good Babushka]

58. She really said that?

What a tool!

[saltpoint]

29. This week a long time ago

Bonnie and Clyde were gunned down, bringing an end to their lawless rampage.

For those contemplating going into a life of bank robbery, I think the details of their death might be a cause for hesitation.

Personal opinion.

[anotherproletariat]

31. Nice work!! nt

[AgingAmerican]

39. Another angry, negative, linkless OP

By a Hillary supporter. Same shit, different day.

[skepticscott]

46. Nonsense...prove it

Show us where in the OP the "angry", "negative" parts are. I challenged someone else upthread to do the same, and they failed miserably.

And gee...some people actually can compose their own thoughts, without having to link to everyone else's. You should try it some time.

[AgingAmerican]

47. Here is the proof

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=2032965

I could write mile long treatise for 2 cents per word.

[skepticscott]

48. Fail

Repeating the same vapid claim is not proof of that claim. It's only proof of my point.

Try again. Cite specific passages and show why they are "angry" and "negative". If you can't, then just admit it.

[AgingAmerican]

49. If you really want to see FAIL

Look at your transparency page!

[skepticscott]

65. Even bigger fail

You have no facts or arguments, so you try a lame deflection.

And no, my transparency page is not a fail. Things need to be said, and I'm not afraid to say them. If thin-skinned people get their feathers ruffled, fuck them. If alert trollers get lucky after 3 or 4 tries, big deal. If clueless DU juries hide me, so be it. I apologize for none of it.

Try again. And try not to waste my time.

[kaleckim]

54. So, let me get this straight

The "centrists" (not sure what they are in the center of) and the right have been in charge for decades in the US. The government has been almost entirely run by corrupt politicians like Clinton and those to her right. The government has not been filled with people like Bernie Sanders. So, how's the country doing? Wages haven't grown for most in decades, de-industrialization has spread, inequality has exploded, infrastructure is crumbling and there is now a multi-trillion dollar infrastructure gap, private debt has exploded, poor communities have been all but abandoned and demonized, we are on our way to ecological collapse, etc. Yet, people feel that they are in a position to lecture those that have had no damn power and as a result are not responsible for the mess that is modern America, as if the more moderate politicians are in a position to lecture anyone about anything, other than screwing everything up and being corrupt.

I'd like this poster and all the people that approved of his comment to give a single movement in modern times that didn't have a long term vision in mind that wasn't "realistic" in the short term. The labor movement envisioned a society that was radically different than the one they lived in. People had a long term vision, they fought and organized around that vision, and they got us the 40 hour work week, safe working conditions, overtime pay, the weekend, etc. Moderates didn't do a damn thing to further the labor movement, they were forced by that movement to implement those policies. Same with the Civil Rights movement. It had a long term vision in mind (remember that guy that had a dream, a vision of a society that didn't then exist?), they challenged a centuries old system and the power structure at that time did not support those changes, so they were in Clinton speak "unrealistic". Should the Civil Rights movement (overwhelmingly led by the radical left), the labor movement (ditto), the environmental movement (ditto), the women's suffrage movement (ditto), the gay rights movement (ditto) and the rest just not have bothered?

Clinton supporters seem to think that you elect people that are paid off by the very interests that have benefited from the state's policies, they let it be known that they don't support radically changing the system, they ignore that over the last few generations almost everything has gotten worse, but somehow everything is going to get better. How exactly? Who knows, since we don't actually see evidence of it, since, again, almost everything has been getting progressively worse and the very policies the Clintons have supported have helped to make everything worse. On the rare instances in which we have progressed (marriage equality, for example), politicians like Clinton, Obama and of course those their right have played no role in that progress. Activists did the important work and they eventually took positions that were safe thanks to their work.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. There are no facts, only interpretations. Friedrich Nietzsche

Interpretations differ.

[skepticscott]

66. Jump off a building

and see if your "interpretation" can trump the "fact" of gravity.