In the real world every wealthy nation has universal healthcare except the U.S.

[think]

Wake up Hillary supporters. Universal health care isn't a unicorn. It's not 'free stuff'. It's real and it's vital to our citizens.

Dan Gecker says U.S. only wealthy nation without universal health care

By Sean Gorman on Tuesday, September 1st, 2015 at 9:55 a.m.


When it comes to health care, state Senate hopeful Dan Gecker says the U.S. is in a dubious league of its own.

"Of the 25 wealthiest nations, we’re the only one that doesn’t provide basic health coverage," Gecker, a Democrat who serves on the Chesterfield County Board of Supervisors, said during an Aug. 18 candidates’ forum.

~snip~


Gecker pointed us to a report last year issued by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a group of 34 nations -- mostly with industrialized economies -- seeking to improve trade.

The report says only two OECD countries -- the U.S. and Mexico -- do not offer universal care. A chart in the study shows that all of the other OECD nations provide coverage for more than 90 percent of their people..

http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2015/sep/01/dan-gecker/dan-gecker-says-us-only-wealth-nation-without-univ/

[My Good Babushka]

1. For all our talk about remaining globally competitive

a sick people will never compete with and outperform a healthy citizenry. It should be investment number one, when it comes to infrastructure.

[think]

2. Indeed. America comes in dead last in health care compared to these 10 countries:

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries

By Dan Munro - Jun 16, 2014 @ 10:55 PM


Earlier this year, Cadillac ran a controversial TV ad that first aired during the opening ceremonies of the 2014 Winter Olympics. It was called “Poolside” and featured actor Neal McDonough extolling America’s work ethic over other countries — specifically France.

Turns out that many of those “other countries” (including France) score better than the U.S. in one key metric not included in Cadillac’s TV spot — healthcare. At least that’s according to The Commonwealth Fund in their latest report “Mirror, Mirror On The Wall — 2014 Update” (pdf here).

For this year’s survey on overall health care, The Commonwealth Fund ranked the U.S. dead last .

1. United Kingdom

2. Switzerland

3. Sweden

4. Australia

5. Germany & Netherlands (tied)

7. New Zealand & Norway (tied)


9. France

10. Canada

11. United States

It’s fairly well accepted that the U.S. is the most expensive healthcare system in the world, but many continue to falsely assume that we pay more for healthcare because we get better health (or better health outcomes). The evidence, however, clearly doesn’t support that view....

Read more:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2014/06/16/u-s-healthcare-ranked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/#2339b1941b96

[Recursion]

4. And 2 of those 10 have single payer

The difference is they have the political will to force their doctors to make half of what ours do.

The problem is the American left has been confusing the means with the end. Single payer isn't important in itself, and isn't even a particularly popular way to achieve universal healthcare.

[think]

5. We don't have universal healthcare. Everyone else does. Hillary isn't going to fight for it. Bernie

is...

[Recursion]

12. And a President "fighting" for something isn't particularly important to me

I recognize it is to you (no idea why, but I accept you are sincere).

[think]

16. Leaders help the people understand important issues & work to achieve results. Bernie is doing that.

Hillary is lining her pockets with millions in income from health care companies & associations that are actively fighting to stop universal healthcare.

There is a huge difference between these two candidates.

I'm not sure who you think should take the lead in informing the American people about universal healthcare and working to see that Americans get it but I am sure glad Bernie is willing to. Bernie is taking the lead. That's what true leaders do....

[Recursion]

17. No, they don't. I call this the Sorkin Delusion

Presidents don't do that.

[think]

18. Presidents don't lead & inform the voters on issues? Really? How did Obamacare come about?

Did he not take the lead and make that his main objective?

Sure the legislation comes from congress but Obama spoke to the people and pushed for the change.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-unveils-universal-health-care-plan/

[Recursion]

26. Which they wouldn't have to do if US providers made what European providers made

Which, again, is my point.

[Proud Public Servant]

44. Really? That's your example?

We don't have Obamacare because Obama lead the people, Bernie style -- and thank God, because the people didn't want it. The Obama administration did the best it could unveiling their plan to the public, but they didn't win public support for it; i's favorable rating was 10 points underwater when it passed, and had Congress been listening to the people the law never would have happened.

We have Obamacare not because Obama acted like Bernie, but because he acted like LBJ (or W, for that matter) and (with great help from Pelosi and Reid) rammed that mother through Congress and ran roughshod over the opposing party and the public polling. Obamacare is DC establishment politics at either its best or its worst, but it sure as hell isn't an example of the president rallying the people.

[think]

45. I voted for Obama because he was leading the discussion of universal healthcare. That's leadership

[Proud Public Servant]

49. No, it's a campaign promise. Like closing Gitmo (remember that?).

Getting it done is leadership -- and getting it done required Obama to be a lot more like Hillary (high-handed, compromising, collaborative) than like Bernie.

[think]

50. Hillary is taking millions from the healthcare industry that's fighting single payer. That's not

leadership. That's self enrichment.

[Proud Public Servant]

51. As did Obama in 2008. I believe you just called that "leadership" (nt)

[think]

55. Obama did not make millions in income from the health care industry like Hillary.

[Proud Public Servant]

56. Look at that goalpost go! (nt)

[think]

57. What did you think I was referring to when I mentioned Hillary taking millions from the health care

industry? Donations? Hell. She got cold hard cash from them!

I don't know who gave donations to Obama from the health care industry. Got a list?

[think]

58. And talk about goal posts. This thread is about EVERY other wealthy nation having single payer

except the United States.

Something you've failed to discuss...

[Fumesucker]

6. Other nations don't have the level of predatory insurance companies we do here

At this point anything that keeps the insurance companies in the loop in the USA is guaranteed to be an expensive bureaucratic FUBAR.

The problem is predatory capitalism, it has been allowed to rampage through the US like Godzilla stomping Tokyo flat.

[Recursion]

13. Sure, I guess? I'm much more upset about hospitals than insurance companies, personally

Particularly since that's where basically all of the money is going.

[Fumesucker]

14. The more money passes through the insurance companies the larger their cut

Fighting the hospital to get them to pay attention to your case is one thing, fighting the insurance company to get them to pay for your care is another.

It's all part and parcel of predatory capitalism.

Some aspects of capitalism are even great, but when it comes to something where shopping around the market is as opaque as it is in medical care it doesn't work well.

[Recursion]

15. I get that, and I just don't care. It's like 4% of spending.

Sure, it's kind of irritating, but it's just not the problem. Our providers make twice the OECD average, and unsurprisingly our health care costs are twice the OECD average. Fix that and I don't really care how we finance it.

[Fumesucker]

41. Fighting the insurance companies is a huge part of many people's effort when they require care

Just when you can least afford to expend your energy on something that in the larger picture is pointless you are forced into a byzantine bureaucratic hell with obscure language and arcane rules while your financial future is hanging in the balance.

It's a burden that does not exist in other systems or at least not nearly to the extent it does here.

[think]

20. "insurance overhead is only 1.8 percent in Canada’s single-payer system"

Doctors’ Single-Payer Prescription for Health Care Reform

By Steffie Woolhandler & David Himmelstein - 05/18/2016 01:28 pm ET

~Snip~

Our nation can readily afford such expanded and improved coverage if we replace the current wasteful patchwork of insurers with a streamlined single-payer system. At present, private insurers’ take 12.3 percent of total premiums for their overhead; only 88 cents of every premium dollar ever reaches a doctor, hospital or pharmacy. And insurers inflict massive paperwork on doctors and hospitals, which spend about one-quarter of their revenues on billing and administration.

In contrast, insurance overhead is only 1.8 percent in Canada’s single-payer system, about the same overhead as in our Medicare program. And Canadian hospitals have administrative costs less than half those of their U.S. counterparts. That’s because Canadian hospitals are paid annual global budgets, like U.S. fire departments, instead of billing separately for each Band-Aid and aspirin tablet. Billing is also simple and inexpensive for Canadian physicians.

Overall, a single payer would save about $500 billion annually by trimming administrative spending to Canadian levels. Moreover, as in other nations, the single payer could use its purchasing power to lower drug prices, saving tens of billions more each year. These savings could fully cover the new costs of the coverage expansions we propose, a conclusion in keeping with past estimates by the Government Accountability Office, the Congressional Budget Office, and private consulting groups (including one that’s owned by an insurance company)

Read more:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steffie-woolhandler/doctors-singlepayer-presc_b_10023842.html

[Recursion]

22. And it's 4% of total spending. Doesn't really matter

Again, we agree it's not ideal. It's not the problem though. The fact that hospitals and doctors receive twice the OECD average is the problem.

[think]

24. High deductibles are a huge problem and it matters. When a person has to come up with $6500

while dealing with serious medical issues that's a huge problem....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Add a public option..

The goal is to provide quality health care to all Americans regardless of ability to pay.

Add a public option, expand Medicaid, regulate the exiting insurance markets, and get to 100% coverage that way. Private power corporations have no problem in making a profit in a heavily regulated market. Why can't medical insurance companies?

Seems a lot less intrusive and burdensome than nationalizing the entire industry.

[Recursion]

21. That's still focusing too much on insurers. They're 4% of spending.

Again; would be nice, as part of the wishlist: still not the real problem. We need providers to make much, much less than they do now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I have lots of friends and family members who are physicians.

It's onerous work and one that requires a substantial amount of incentives to make one choose it.

[Recursion]

25. And we need them to make a lot less money to do it.

US physicians make twice the OECD average.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. The current ones will balk and future physicians will choose a different vocation.

You can not get $4 trillion dollars of health care for $3 trillion dollars. There would have to caps on hospital costs and physician's salaries.

[Recursion]

29. Which is what literally every other country does

There would have to caps on hospital costs and physician's salaries.

And this, not single payer, is the secret formula other countries have found.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. So why wouldn't a lot of really smart people choose a vocation

So why wouldn't a lot of really smart people choose a vocation other than medicine where the work is less onerous and the pay is better?

Like law or business ?

[Recursion]

34. Why do people become teachers? (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I don't want to pit one profession against another but the differences

I don't want to pit one professions against another but the differences in responsibility are tremendous. In one profession incompetence can lead to a less than intelligent student and in the other profession incompetence can lead to a corpse.

There are a lot more...

[Spacedog1973]

54. What tends to happen

Is that you attract intelligent and compassionate individuals who do the work not just because they are 'intelligent', but because its a vocation that they are interested in and holds a level of esteem. Money is not the only motivating factor for intelligent people. Its holding positions of responsibility, having the respect of their peers and enjoying their job.

There are plenty of high paying jobs that are filled with miserable people. Also, education is based upon a number of factors, 'inherent intelligence' is not one of them. Having an infrastructure that promotes training in medicine, effectively, cheaply and within a reasonable time frame opens up the field to more people as a profession. Educational success is about commitment to learning and the environment that would support that.

There are many professions and places of employment where incompetence can end up with a member of the public dying. People who pack food for consumption don't get a bonus for cleanliness, nor do police (for using their firearms responsibly), Street cleaners (for keeping our streets clear of potentially serious contagious disease), Transport workers (For being sober on the job and driving responsibly and safely), Electricians (For wiring our homes safely), the list goes on and on. - I used the unsung occupations here to make the point.

In the UK, doctors are expected to be paid commensurate with the effort they have put in to studying and becoming professionals within their field. Its not a perfect balance and no doubt they are overworked, but they continue to train and provide many of the medical breakthroughs, produce some of the best medical practitioners from/in some of the best medical universities in the world.

[taught_me_patience]

47. Let me guess...you're not a physician

It's real easy to propose caps on other people's salary. Your call to cut doctor wages by 50 is insane. I would fight that with every fiber of my being.

[Recursion]

48. Of course you would; that's why we haven't done it.

I don't blame you; just factually slashing provider reimbursements are the only way we're going to have affordable health care.

And it gets worse: you don't just need to take a 50% paycut, you need to take a 50% paycut while also seeing the 30% of patients who are avoiding treatment because of cost, in addition to your current caseload.

[Fresh_Start]

30. We need targeted free higher education

pay for medical training in return for 10 years of government service providing medical care at much lower cost than the self-financed doctors.

[Recursion]

31. That should definitely be a part of it (nt)

[Fresh_Start]

32. we also need to increase the supply of physicians

in order to assure access...since many people can't get access to a physician even when they have medicare, medicaid or obamacare.

[taught_me_patience]

46. Are you seriously proposing 10years of servitude

To the government in order to become a doctor? Yeah...Fuck that... completely un- American.It's probably easy to propose such things when you are not a doctor.

[Ghost Dog]

62. Actually, 5 of the 11 have universal coverage,

according to the Commonwealth Fund's account of this research here:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

The most notable way the U.S. differs from other industrialized countries is the absence of universal health insurance coverage.5 Other nations ensure the accessibility of care through universal health systems and through better ties between patients and the physician practices that serve as their medical homes. The Affordable Care Act is increasing the number of Americans with coverage and improving access to care, though the data in this report are from years prior to the full implementation of the law. Thus, it is not surprising that the U.S. underperforms on measures of access and equity between populations with above- average and below-average incomes.

The U.S. also ranks behind most countries on many measures of health outcomes, quality, and efficiency. U.S. physicians face particular difficulties receiving timely information, coordinating care, and dealing with administrative hassles. Other countries have led in the adoption of modern health information systems, but U.S. physicians and hospitals are catching up as they respond to significant financial incentives to adopt and make meaningful use of health information technology systems. Additional provisions in the Affordable Care Act will further encourage the efficient organization and delivery of health care, as well as investment in important preventive and population health measures.

For all countries, responses indicate room for improvement. Yet, the other 10 countries spend considerably less on health care per person and as a percent of gross domestic product than does the United States. These findings indicate that, from the perspectives of both physicians and patients, the U.S. health care system could do much better in achieving value for the nation’s substantial investment in health...

[Recursion]

63. Which is different from single payer

Single payer need not be universal coverage, and universal coverage need not be single payer.

[mindem]

53. I keep bringing this up to people.

It's ironic you used term "dead last" to describe the U.S. healthcare ranking. The truth speaks.

[JRLeft]

3. Hillary supporters are more conservative like her, but they believe they are progressive.

[Demsrule86]

8. You are not liberal or progressive

What have you ever done in your life? Most of us have real accomplishments...in liberal politics. You won't get anything out of Bernie's nonsense because he is in it for Bernie as the Sunday shows clearly demonstrated.

[think]

10. The arrogance...

[JRLeft]

11. I'm for the moderate republican Hillary Clinton in the general election, because

she's not as awful as Trump.

Bernie and Jill Stein are light years better than Trump and Clinton, but they're aren't viable.

Your support of republican lite proves you're not progressive.

You probably used phrases like free stuff too. Using right wing phrases puts her supporters in line with conservatives.

[Demsrule86]

7. It is unattainable for the next four years

and our only chance is to take back Congress...we had a shot...but Bernie has pretty much destroyed our chances...same old same old...people like him never accomplish anything...and ruin progress. And not because he is liberal. I am liberal...but because he is indie...and does not play for the team. He attacks our side.

[think]

9. Don't blame Bernie for Hillary's corruption and incompetence. That's all on her.

[Demsrule86]

36. Bernie will be despise in the end

despite what you say...if he hands the election to Trump...it will be a generation before he has a shot again...he will be the anti-Roosevelt.

[vintx]

40. The only ones handing anything to Trump are hillarys supporters. nt

[think]

43. Hillary is the one whose server and foundation are being investigated by the FBI. Hillary took the

millions from corrupt too big to fail Wall Street banks.

She took millions more from health care corporations and associations that oppose universal health care.

Hillary is doing this to herself. No one forced her to do these things.

And the things Hillary campaign did in 2008 against Barack Obama make Bernie's campaign against her look very friendly in comparison.

Chill Out and Remember What the Democratic Race Looked Like at This Point in 2008

~Snip~

Here are some flashbacks to that tense period in 2008:

May 8: After narrowly beating Obama in Indiana, Clinton says, "Senator Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again." This was an argument that superdelegates should support her because her black opponent wouldn't be able to win white voters in November.

May 9: Sixteen pro-Clinton House members send a letter to superdelegates touting Clinton's "ability to connect with voters we must deliver in the fall, including blue collar Democrats who can sway this election as they have in the past."

Mid-May: Bill Clinton frantically tries to convince superdelegates to switch their allegiances. According to Game Change, "Clinton's message, sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly, was that the country wasn't ready to elect an African American president."

May 23: Hillary Clinton tells the Sioux Falls Argus Leader that she's staying in the race because anything can happen. "We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California," she says. She pledges to fight until the convention and challenges Obama to more debates. Obama supporters howl at Clinton's fear tactic...

Read more:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/lets-put-hillary-clinton-and-bernie-sanders-feud-perspective

And to top things off there is this:

Bill Clinton Accuses Obama Camp of Stirring Race Issue

By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE JAN. 24, 2008

KINGSTREE, S.C. — Former President Bill Clinton defended himself Wednesday against accusations that he and his wife had injected the issue of race into the Democratic presidential primary in South Carolina, and he accused Senator Barack Obama of Illinois of putting out a “hit job” on him.

Scolding a reporter, Mr. Clinton said the Obama campaign was “feeding” the news media to keep issues of race alive, obscuring positive coverage of the presidential campaign here of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/24/us/politics/24dems.html?_r=0

[colsohlibgal]

27. Amazing To Me That So Many Accept For Profit Healthcare

Obamacare sure did nothing to correct that. We still have big deductibles, big co pays, big out of pocket costs. Healthcare executives making gazillions as a result, and for what exactly? What to they add to health care delivery?

It is immoral and just wrong.....you shouldn't have to go bankrupt because you had the bad form of developing cancer. It is all a travesty and "American Exceptionalism" but in a bad, sick way.

By the way these fat cats also screw a lot of physicians.

[Recursion]

37. And you're *still* focusing on insurance, rather than providers

Why is that?

[Fumesucker]

42. Because before you can do anything in our system you have to interface with the insurance companies

For anything other than life threatening emergency insurance comes before anything gets done, that's what people deal with day to day and that's where their frustrations are focused.

[d_legendary1]

60. We spend more on healthcare than anyone on this planet

And we get the worst outcomes compared to other developed countries who pay less than we do. And this has to do with the profit motive in the healthcare industry: insurance companies, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals have placed profits before people. Its insane that they are account for 17.5% of GDP and we're not number one in anything except obesity rates.

This is a problem universal healthcare can solve.

[Demsrule86]

38. At least people can get care

My cousin died because he had a pre-exsting ...and could not buy coverage at any price....had an accident six months before Obamacare was implemented and they let him die. I like single payer too...but we need somthing and obamacare has helped many people. We won't get single payer until we have the congress.

[vintx]

39. Gotta protect those corporate profits! nt

[tabasco]

52. NO WE CAN'T!!

---- H. Clinton

[pdsimdars]

59. So essentially, what Hillary is saying is that we can't be a part of the real world.

[liberal_at_heart]

61. K&R

[LiberalElite]

64. Well, vote for Ms. "No We Can't" and see how much things change eom