2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumOK: I found a way towards unity for all of us!
2016 has been bitter and nasty. I admit that I am guilty of this myself with some, not all, of my posts.
I want everyone to go on a rightwing site and start reading their posts. Did you know:
A. Hillary will take away your guns? I did not know the president had the sole power to repeal amendments?
B. We need more tax cuts for the Job creators.
C. Only minorities get welfare?
D. All Muslims are loyal to Isis?
To my Sanders supporters I say, we just can't risk President Trump and to Hillary supporters, let's please starting having positive dilogues
grasswire
(50,130 posts)But it isn't the responsibility of Sanders supporters to bail out Hillary now. We voted for the proven strongest candidate against Trump. We did our duty. It's now up to Hillary to find the votes she needs. She's strong enough to do that without asking a man to help her out.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)Passive aggressive much?
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)There is no talking to people with such an obvious chip on there shoulder.
yardwork
(61,608 posts)Sorry, but that's no way to start a "dialogue."
You are looking to read anything as sexist. If Hillary used the word dialogue, wass she being sexist?
yardwork
(61,608 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)yardwork
(61,608 posts)Calm down and read the posts above.
840high
(17,196 posts)Andy823
(11,495 posts)The whole country will be affected by Trump in the WH, not just those who voted for Hillary. Are you so rich you won't be affected? Nobody and I mean nobody will like Trump as president.
Just remember when you lose your SS, Medicare, or anything else you may be getting from the government, you had a chance to stop him but you didn't take it. Your allegiance to the "anyone but Hillary" gang prevented you from thinking for yourself and dong what needs to be done. Also if you don't bother to vote for the nominee, then you should not come on DU and complain how terrible things are, and then blame it all on Clinton like you did with Obama.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Your tirade is so off base and insulting.
You can't scare Bernie or his supporters. You should have considered not voting for the weaker candidate against Trump.
Bernie is the stronger candidate for the GE. If you are terrified that Clinton will lose to Trump, you should not have voted for her. It's that simple.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)Find your own voting base, maybe the moderate republicans will make a suitable replacement for the left as that is what is going to happen anyway.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)MFM008
(19,808 posts)What comes out of his mouth should be enough.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Oh brother.
You can't expect that a campaign that has repudiated progressives in every way possible for a year should think we will want to bail her out now.
She chose this path. We already did our part. We voted for the stronger candidate against Trump. She can build her coalition to beat him.
You can't scare us by implying that she is too weak to take him on without asking a man and his supporters to help.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Isn't that EXACTLY what Sander (and his supporters) expect, with respect to flipping the Super-Delegates?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Since the OP was talking unity among voters ... would it be OK with you if HRC addressed the female voters, since you seem to have a problem with mens "help(ing) her out?
Just ... wow
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)herding cats
(19,564 posts)I mean that, I really do! I don't think some people are ready to stop arguing quite yet.
Maybe try a repost on June 16th, or so? Right now wars are still being waged against the perceived opposition, and there are still spleens to be vented, and salt to be rubbed into fresh wounds.
My choice vs yours. Be damned the collateral damage, it's war, etc.
Thanks for trying, though.
pengu
(462 posts)lol
herding cats
(19,564 posts)It just gives people a bit more time to adjust, and Bernie will have had more time to persuade his followers that their message will go forward even with a Hillary nominee.
Amaril
(1,267 posts)Just FYI
That explains that then.
Well, then the 15th. I got my days off there. I thought the DC primary was the 15th, not the 14th.
my point was only that Bernie will have made steps by then to work with Hillary, and people will be healing some.
Hopefully the salt to wound ration will be greatly reduced by then, too.
eastwestdem
(1,220 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)No, seriously, I think the distinction between the people who want actual unity and the folks who want to get in a few more "effff yoooooooou"s before the new rules here come into play, is apparent.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... disappointed (even though their candidate ran an absolutely fantastic campaign). I'm sad, but I can't judge.
I wish there was less gloating from Hillary supporters, or refusal to give him the same chance Hillary had in 2008 to let all primaries finish and determine the best way to concede the top ticket position WITHOUT conceding that his message, and the views of 45% of the people who voted in our primary, must be represented, though.
I have faith he will do the right thing before June 21st -- concede the top position, vow to fight for his supporters at the Convention to make sure the final platform represents their interests, and remind them that "the struggle continues" until the last person stops fighting for equality and justice -- Bernie clearly wants his supporters to understand this doesn't end with him.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)My personal favorite (this happened last night) are the Hillary people- note there are jackholes on both sides, no question- who, after clearly and badly losing an argument on simple logical or factual grounds, try some shit like "I know losing hurts, but it'll be okay".
Not, like, in the genuinely sympathetic tone of your post, but in this sort of lame, emotional 12 year old, "on some level I realize you just cleaned my clock in this debate, so I'm just gonna try to neener you to get a reaction hurrr".
Yeah... okay, pal.
I may not be the typical Sanders supporter, but I figured from the get-go that HRC would likely be the nominee. So now she is, and great, and I believe (as Obama apparently said in an interview to be released this week) that Sanders made Hillary a better candidate. I think he did, and his campaign was a net positive for all of us.
And now, or once the voting is over- as you say, by the 21st- he should graciously concede and enthusiastically endorse. That is the best ending.
moriah
(8,311 posts)Like I did in 2008. So maybe I am not the typical Hillary supporter either.
But I said from the beginning that the primaries are vital for determining the direction our Party takes for the future. That requires vigorous debate, and we certainly had that this time (to put it mildly). Hillary, too, said she thought the primary debates on issues (not just televised ones, but the discussion throughout the entire primary) was good for the Party overall.
At the same time... once the primary is over, that's when we have to accept the nominee our process gave us, work to create the best platform to base the Party's next four years of effort achieving, and then defeat the GOP nominee.
I actually agree with something else Hillary said, too, even if saying this might not make me some friends -- this isn't the standard GE, given who actually won on the Republican side. While I worked my heart out for Obama, and if we lost I was going to be doing a lot of prayers for McCain to live the entire term to avoid Palin becoming President, I wasn't nearly as afraid of a McCain presidency as I am of a Trump presidency. McCain was far more qualified and far more sane.
So I am actually glad she's apparently reaching out towards Republicans, even if it seems like further pivot to center. One of my dearest Conservative friends, who is evangelical and everything, said when he cast his primary vote for Cruz that he'd vote for Clinton over Trump. Shocked me, but he's not the only one.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)based on past actions and her openly-stated beliefs...I'm pretty sure Hillary believes (B.) (and worse along the same lines as (B.)) herself and that's the biggest issue to me. It's a deal-breaker for my support. Hillary will never have it...I already have a countdown clock until Nov. 10 set when I can start The Campaign to primary Hillary Clinton in 2020.; that is literally the day that effort begins--before she ever takes office, following a single day for reprieve and rest, the first day that effort can start in earnest.
My interests and intentions lie with a Sanders write-in because if there are a few million (or 10M) of those nationally, it will send a powerful message that is impossible to ignore about the direction of this nation. Let's be clear, Sanders supporters are free-agents, the party has forsaken us in-full by nominating Hillary. We're not getting what we want this election-cycle but we can still stand up to be counted and make it clear that there are legion of us up-for-grabs to anybody willing to govern by our principles and not those of Wall St., the establishment of the one party masquerading as two, and Clintonite fake Democrats. (This being, I feel, the last time I need to say "fake Democrats"...whenever I say Clintonites, it can be interpreted as "People that are not really Democrats."
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)Then it's perfectly acceptable to bash constructively-criticize Clinton as we call for a 2020 primary opponent.
I expect by 2018 even you will regret your support of that Wall St. vampire, Clintonite.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)They will double and triple down, and excuse things they may otherwise never would.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)"We know it's terrible that President Clinton had to compromise away a woman's right to bodily autonomy and freedom of choice by allowing the GOP to ban abortion...but that compromise allowed us to keep unfettered access to birth control."
Less than no use for quislings and apologists for capitulation.
BlindTiresias
(1,563 posts)No other way to describe them.
FSogol
(45,485 posts)trash.
Forsaken? Oh, the drama! Your candidate came in 2nd. Sorry, but he lost. My preferred candidate came in 3rd, but that's the way it goes sometimes. The Democratic party has not forsaken you or me.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)There was literally only one candidate in this race whose nomination I would never accept...and she's the nominee. I'm done with Presidential politics for the next 5 months.
Y'all can work for and elect that monster. I'm sitting this one out and writing in Sanders. Then I'm leading the charge here and elsewhere to build a base of support to primary Clinton and purge her supporters from the tent.
FSogol
(45,485 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)I'm tired of that parroted line...it does nothing but belie the lack of intelligence of the person saying it.
You should save your vomit emoticons for when you find yourself casting a vote for a Democratic nominee who is the personification of the betrayal of every Democratic principle and ideal. You're going to need to purge afterwards.
FSogol
(45,485 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)I think you need to get out of the groupthink bubble. There are many, many millions of Americans that do not support either Clinton or Trump...and now I'm just one more.
I feel free and liberated in that...if she wants my vote, she can earn it. It'll just cost more than she wants to pay in terms of endorsing prosecutions of white-collar crime, dropping her inane child-care proposal, raising taxes on the wealthiest Americans, supporting a $15 minimum-wage, dealing with the outrageous costs of college, fixing our economy, conditionalizing our support for Israel on their efforts towards a lasting peace, and a bunch of other things. She could have my support but she doesn't want it because it means stabbing the establishment backers that got her here.
840high
(17,196 posts)him - tell him thanks.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)I respect your opinions completely.
It's all true.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)The idea that Hillary is looking to "cut taxes for 'job creators'" is baseless nonsense. And you know it.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)She said she wasn't when she was my Senator when I lived in Yonkers and worked Brooklyn too...and yet was very committed to working for tax-incentives for business "to create jobs for hard-working New Yorkers." Strangely, nobody I know ever saw these supposed jobs.
Who can believe a thing Hillary says? One would have to be defiantly resistant to reality to believe her or deny her past on this.
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)Sorry, these aren't them.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Does it stop at the same station as the "stop the 'freaking nuts' train"?
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Since, both, the "Hillary hype train" and the "stop the 'freaking nuts' train" will get you closer, if only by one station, to your final destination ... AND, there are no other trains running, wouldn't it make sense to get out of the cold, if even briefly?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Both sites will excuse *anything* a "popular" politician with the proper letter by their name does or says, both sites will condemn exactly the same behavior when the politician has the wrong letter by their name.
It's the behavior that's the issue, D or R and it's really frustrating to those of us who want the bad behavior to stop that bad behavior is so resolutely defended by those on the "side" of whichever politician.
As soon as you defend your side doing something you automatically give a pass to the other side for doing the same thing, you no longer have credibility to speak out against that which you defended.
It doesn't surprise me that establishment Democrats are willing to give away so much credibility on so many issues but I have been a bit surprised at how eagerly Democratic voters have moved to throw away any moral authority on something as serious as war for instance. As Lily Tomlin once said, no matter how cynical you get you can never keep up.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)And this is precisely why Bernie should not and his supporters cannot capitulate by endorsing a candidate whose core values are diametrically opposed to our core beliefs.
Endorsing someone whose core values you repudiate just invalidates any measure of integrity and principle you have stood for. It give license to continued repression of enlightenment and hope for a better world.
And in the case of HRC, endorsing her would mean endorsing (or allowing) corruption, chaos, suppression of votes, obfuscation, and drama. (To say nothing of likely criminality and failure to protect national secrets.)
Asking progressives to set aside their core values is just too much. It's wrong. It can't be.
And trying to scare us with Trump is useless. We are not the ones who want to send the weaker candidate to fight the ogre.
840high
(17,196 posts)aikoaiko
(34,170 posts)From my point of view, Hillary and Bernie were almost identical in terms of their positions on guns and access to guns except for one issue - PLCAA. On PLCAA, Bernie was better.
But Bernie offered so much more of a liberal agenda that I was willing to let go of the Assault Weapons Ban. Plus, I never saw gun restrictions as a burning passion for Bernie the way it is for Hillary.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)...and the one place they diverge, Hillary is dead wrong.
Mind you, this is from the POV of someone who supports a number of additional gun control measures, but is generally pro-2nd-Am. Both are more anti-gun than I am.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)Their failed philosophies and wrong headed delusions should have been fiercely repudiated and the worst of their criminality harshly punished instead of "looking forward" and "meeting them in the middle".
Faux moderates and the Turd Way have excused, coddled, and even assimilated their vile and worse demonstrably wrong nonsense for decades while ideologically literally forcing them to the right in many areas just to differentiate which in turn that pressure creates an ugly scenario where much of their wrong headed foolishness is validated and essentially accepted as "common wisdom" no matter how ridiculous and false.
Foolish corporate conservatives and neocon enablers have played a huge role in creation of the virtually unchecked right wing gravity that sets up the conditions where a buffoon of epic proportions like the Hammy Yam has space to operate and they go on creating it and the high likelihood is that we keep going down this same shitty rabbit hole moving forward and matters and choices grow worse.
Want unity? Repudiate, disavow, defang, and utterly annihilate the Turd Way movement in this party.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)The yahoos that can't spell right on their signs.
Chasstev365
(5,191 posts)pinebox
(5,761 posts)1) Fracking
2) More wars
3) No living wage
4) No universal health care
On and on. Of course there's more. It seems this election for many of us will be about who you DON'T want as a president. Nawwwww, many will not play it. I think a lot of us are done with both Hillary and Trump.
It's up to Hillary to get us Bernie supporters on board and many of us won't because it boils down to one thing; trust. Millions don't trust her. That is her downfall.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Bernie forged a coalition of independents and progressives through his own sweat and grit. It is a massive coalition of furiously energized Americans.
And these people repudiate Hillary's core values.
She is going to have to find her own voters. It is wrong to try to poach Bernie's people by scaring them with Trump.
Trump is bad, yes. We don't want him near the WH.
But Hillary has time to find her own coalition to support Third Way platform. She doesn't need a man to do that for her.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)I don't see many Bernie supporters backing her.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)I was reading comments this morning. Holy crow, many people are even more angry than I am, and TOTALLY resolved to affect this campaign yet.
pinebox
(5,761 posts)because it would be alerted on fast
840high
(17,196 posts)overseas.
That would be interesting.
840high
(17,196 posts)would get a hide quickly.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Or Europeans?
Turin_C3PO
(13,991 posts)Essentially Obama's coalition POC, Women, LGBT, white Clinton supporters, most white Sanders supporters who either always vote Democratic, or will just to defeat Trump, and some moderate suburban type Repubs who can't vote Trump. Electorally, she's got this barring something catastrophic happening.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)...or her surrogates and supporters wouldn't be bitterly trying to shame Bernie and beg him to bail her out with votes.
And by the way, the national polls belie your coalition above. She loses to Trump in most. Bernie beats Trump more significantly in all.
Turin_C3PO
(13,991 posts)I just don't think Trump can ultimately win with such dismal POC and women polling against Clinton. Plus I think Bernie's going to get a lot of input into the Dem platform which should bring over some more Sanders supporters.
Ino
(3,366 posts)Bill Clinton says I'm toast. It's not my job now to figure out how Hillary is going to beat Repukes. It's up to her to "get things done."
She'd better get crackin'!
We did our duty. We voted for the demonstrably stronger candidate against Trump.
Lord Magus
(1,999 posts)Especially the bullshit claims that Hillary opposes a living wage and universal health care.
BootinUp
(47,148 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)to make that happen.
It isn't primarily Bernie supporters job to inspire enthusiasm for Hillary.