RE: Florida vs. Zimmerman

[Peaceful Protester]

George indicated his initial contact with Trayvon began with the following words:

Trayvon: "Do you have a problem?"

George: "No. I don't have a problem!"

Trayvon adopts a defensive position after coming into contact with the person he believes has followed him for no reason. In his response, George neither identifies himself nor his intentions. George simply challenges Trayvon's defensive attitude with his own; thereby, unnecessarily escalating an already tense situation. At this point, it would be reasonable to believe ones life was in immediate danger.

George should have identified himself and his intentions. If George had simply treated Trayvon with respect and been straightforward, how different the outcome:

Trayvon: "Do you have a problem?"

George: "No. I'm with neighborhood watch, and we've had several incidents lately."

George: "I was just wondering if you live around here?"

--

Why Racial Profiling is a Bad Idea

Racial profiling doesn't work.

One of the great myths about racial profiling is that it would work if only law enforcement agencies could use it -- that by not using racial profiling, they're tying one hand behind their backs in the name of civil rights.

This simply isn't true:

• An ACLU lawsuit uncovered police data indicating that while 73 percent of suspects pulled over on I-95 between 1995 and 1997 were black, black suspects were no more likely to actually have drugs or illegal weapons in their cars than white suspects.

• According to the Public Health Service, approximately 70% of drug users are white, 15% are black, and 8% are Latino. But the Department of Justice reports that among those imprisoned on drug charges, 26% are white, 45% are black, and 21% are Latino.

(Read More: http://civilliberty.about.com/od/lawenforcementterrorism/tp/Against-Racial-Profiling.htm)
[br]

[handmade34]

1. "If (only) George had simply treated Trayvon with respect"

says it all... about this case and life in general

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

2. Kicked, Recommended, & Bookmarked!!

[Niceguy1]

3. if the first

Exchange is accurate maybe it might have ended different if both sides were respectful as you suggest.

[neohippie]

4. Didn't Trayvon approach Zimmerman while still in the car

I remember reading in the initial story about Martin's father's speaking to the police officer Chris Serino in learning about his son's death, that Serino told him that Trayvon had approached Zimmerman while he was still in his vehicle, and this must have been before Zimmerman called 911 because it's not on the tape, but Martin asked Zimmerman if he was following him, and Zimmerman said no and just rolled up his window, but apparently continued to follow.

Here is the link to what I originally read

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/tracy-martin-recounts-police-version-of-son-trayvons-death/2012/03/28/gIQA6MKhhS_story.html



If this is true, why wasn't this emphasized in the prosecutions case. There are so many details about Zimmerman's case that change in all of his interviews, I thought that the prosecutor should also have played all of the interview tapes to highlight those as well to show the holes in Zimmerman's account of what happened that night.

Zimmerman, could have identified himself, which would have alleviated Martin's fears, instead everything Zimmerman did escalated Martin's fears, He followed him and Martin tried to find out why, he kept following him and Martin tried to flee to run away from his perceived threat, Zimmerman gave chase, heightening Martins fear, if anyone should be able to argue self defense it's Martin, who ran away scared, that shows fear, while Zimmerman, calmly calls the police, and even after telling police that Martin had circled his vehicle, he doesn't feel scared because he knows he is armed. Meanwhile Martin is scared for his life threatened by a stranger who shows signs of stalking him. I would ask the jury again, who is showing fear for their life by running away from this danger and who acts coldly and calculatingly like a killer stalking that boy like a terminator robot.

The prosecutor should turn the tables on the defense and use their self defense argument to show that Martin is the only one in this situation who acted like they were afraid. Zimmerman on the other hand didn't act out of fear until maybe it was too late, after he backed Martin into a corner, where he wasn't able to flee from his killer, his fear turned out to be completely justified, the man was indeed stalking him, he was a creepy guy with a gun and a grudge

Martin has just as much as a right to claim self defense, here, and his story, sounds more like self defense than Zimmerman's version to any reasonable person. After all, we teach people to run away from danger, avoid conflict Zimmerman charged boldly after Martin, determined not to let him get away, that doesn't smell like fear to me or most reasonable people in my opinion.

Let's hope that the prosecution does a better job or pointing this out to the jury in their rebuttal of the defense's closing arguments

[Niceguy1]

5. if we knew what actually

Happened they would be able to easily do that. But the problem is that zimmerman didn't violate any laws... at least until the altercation. And no one knows who actually started it. That is why their case appears weak. Given they both have a history of violence it is hard to tell.

[neohippie]

6. it's really more simple than that

Self defense argument requires that you are in fear for you life, who's actions look like they are a person in fear for their life, the actions of a 17 year old boy who tried to run away from the situation or the actions of the adult who bravely thinks that he is defending his neighborhood from a criminal even though he was mistaken, Did Zimmerman follow and leave a safe position out of fear?

[WCLinolVir]

12. George thought he was defending the neighborhood?

HA HA HA. He obviously has some emotional problems. The police told him to stay put. Zimmerman wasn't brave, he had an ax to grind. He obviously had a real hard time with reality and wanted to see himself as powerful. A sign that he was overcompensating in every which way. Zimmerman had a safe position all right, at home or in his truck. Why the fuck do we have people trying to pin this on a kid who had the right to defend himself from an assault by Zimmerman. If I am out walking, and I am approached by someone who has been stalking me, I surely am not going to allow them to approach me. I will have to assume the worst. And having been assaulted twice by strangers, I speak from experience.
Zimmerman was stupid, is stupid and deserved an ass kicking. What a pity the coward had a gun.

[WCLinolVir]

7. Trayvon had a history of violence?

As in arrested, police report etc... No one knows who actually started what? George Zimmerman following an innocent kid while out walking? That is harassment, stalking. George started the whole thing in motion. We already know what happened or have you been living under a rock?

[neohippie]

9. Martin has no juvenile record

If Martin were on trial for self defense, the actions he took, would justify that he was scared and tried to flee the situation not escalate it. Also if Martin asked Zimmerman point blank why are you following me, do you think the second time Zimmerman catches up to him, he wouldn't be scared for his life, after he already asked Zimmerman once and then tried to run away from him?

[reusrename]

10. There's no evidence the Martin kid had any history of violence.

He appearantly fought in a three-round after-school match, but that sounds more like a sporting event to me.

[John2]

11. Trayvon didn't

have any record of violence. Smoking marijuana and being caught putting Graffitti on a wall, is not a history of violence. What the Defense is claiming a history of violence, involves the Judge allowing to go on Trayvon's social media accounts, such as face book or twitter. Trayvon apparently bragged about being a thug.

You ever went on facebook or twitter accounts, where especially teenagers brag which is very common among them. Especially athletes or people of that Generation that boast about thug life. Especially from an area like Miami. All that stuff is not real, if you understand that generation. It is just myth or hear say of things that never happen but just creates an image. That is exactly what O'Mara took advantage of. O'Mara has no evidence, where Trayvon actually did any of the things he boasted about except the badboy image, Trayvon and most teenagers wanted to portray. The judge should have never allowed it period.

[Skittles]

24. WTF

no one knows who started it? HELLO, the guy who stalked Trayvon for no reason *STARTED IT*

and what history of violence does Trayvon have? TRY *NONE*

[John2]

8. You know

what, this sounds just like Zimmerman's alleged aggressive actions in another incident reported to the Sanford Police, involving a motorist. The motorist claimed that he only spitted his gum out his car window when he was driving, and Zimmerman called the police on him. He claimed Zimmerman started tailgating him and bumping the rear of his car all the way home. He thought Zimmerman was crazy and wanted to attack him. When the police arrived, no charges were filed on either one, because Zimmerman claimed the guy spitted on his car and he claimed Zimmerman tailgated him all the way home. That is the over aggressive behavior, I'm talking about from Zimmerman if what the motorist claims was true.

[noiretextatique]

25. respectful...to a creepy jerk stalking you?

clearly, you are not a woman, or a black person.

[Just Saying]

28. Trayvon was minding his own business going home

And he didn't owe the creepy guy following him answers or respect as he didn't know him from Adam.

It would have ended differently if Zimmerman hadn't left his car, armed, with the intention that the "asshole" "fucking punk" wasn't going to get away this time.

[rurallib]

13. why didn't GZ mind his own business like he was told to?

then nothing would have happened.

[FBaggins]

15. He was told to mind his own business?

That doesn't match the reporting.

[rurallib]

18. wasn't he told by the dispatcher not to leave his car?

I will admit I haven't been following the case very close.
He clearly stalked Martin. Stalking to me means he was looking to cause a confrontation. Since he had a gun, it meant that he was ready to act violently if he were confronted.
Said another way, he was hunting.

Martin tried to protect himself. As he was stalked he no doubt became fearful of an attack. I have been in that situation. You look for a way out. If there is none you try a pre-emptive attack. If you attack you want to render your opponent incapable of continuing. If that means killing then so be it.

Zimmerman was hunting plain and simple. His prey turned on him. He was never defending his life - he was hunting with intent to kill.

Sorry if I unloaded on you. That is the first time I have said anything about this case.

[FBaggins]

19. Nope.

He was told "we don't need you to do that" after he already left his car. But the dispatcher then went on to continue coordinating with him as they would with any community watch program.

A 911 dispatcher can't "tell" you not to do something... they aren't law enforcement.

Martin tried to protect himself.

We don't know that. We really don't know much of anything. GZ supporters are justifying his violence as self defence and imagine what happened prior to that. TM supporters are trying to justify his violence as self defense and are similarly imagining what led up to that.

As far as I'm concerned, neither one of them appears to be much of a role model.

[rurallib]

23. Since we have no idea what Martin did

since he is dead we can speculate.
As I said I have had this happen to me when I was 14. I know what I did. It is called defending yourself.
I would never call what GZ did defending himself. He was the attacker. If Martin committed violence it was in self defense.

As for saying Martin was no role model, that is really hard to say. I would imagine he was defending himself, which I would think most would do.
As for GZ he is a stalker.

[FBaggins]

32. We don't really know what EITHER of them did.

Except the obvious.

GZ could have tracked TM down and assaulted him... or he could have found him and told him that the police were on their way, only to be attacked. We really don't know. Every just makes assumptions based on which side they want to believe.

As for saying Martin was no role model, that is really hard to say.

It's really not. I can't say that he did anything wrong that night... but he certainly wasn't the model I'd want my kids to follow.

[rurallib]

34. good god the kid was walking home

and he was attacked by a man on a hunt

[noiretextatique]

26. one minor problem: he wasn't in a community watch program

second minor problem: neighborhood watch programs do not allow participants to carry loaded guns. he was acting a a lone vigilante.

[Igel]

29. Except he was.

He was a coordinator in the neighborhood watch program (so no, he wasn't in a "community watch" program).

I also can't find anything that they don't "allow" participants to carry guns. It's discouraged, but then again engaging any "suspect" is also discouraged. You watch. You call. You report. That's about it.

As for a loaded gun, it makes no sense whatsoever to carry an unloaded gun. If you're going to carry a gun to anything other than a costume party, you probably want it loaded. Otherwise just carry a billyclub--it's cheaper, easier to hold and is made for hitting people or things, unlike a gun which is expensive, not so easier to hold when you're hitting something, and often loses little metal bits if you him them (or it) hard enough.

[FBaggins]

14. That doesn't make sense.

Two guys meet in a neighborhood at night. One guy says "do you have a problem" and the other says "no - I don't have a problem" and the first guy has a reasonable belief that his life is endangered?

Why didn't the first question "unnecessarily escalate an already tense situation" or make it "reasonable to believe ones life was in immediate danger" ?

If George had simply treated Trayvon with respect and been straightforward, how different the outcome:

Of course. And presumably if Trayvon had started out with "Hey... I'm Trayvon. I live down the street and I'm out for a walk" the outcome would have been different as well.

What people seem to constantly miss is that we always try to break things down into who the "good guy" is and who the "bad guy" is... when it's entirely possible that neither one of them was a "good guy".

[JoePhilly]

16. Zimmerman saw Martin as a "suspect" in a crime that did not happen.

Zimmerman refers to Martin as "the suspect" repeatedly.

But there had been no crime. There was nothing to suspect Martin of.

But Zimmerman sees Martin as the "suspect". That's why he calls 9/11. That's what causes Zimmerman to follow Martin.

Its Zimmerman who is escalating the events from the very start. And at any number of points, Zimmerman could have done something different to prevent a direct confrontation of any kind.

He could have stayed in his car. He could have listened to the police and not followed Martin and just waited for the actual police to arrive. He did not.

Why? Because he was not going to let "the suspect" get away.

[FBaggins]

17. We don't know that at all.

Everyone wants to look back at the evidence in the light of what they are predisposed to assume happened. GZ is the bad guy... so we assume that TM wasn't doing anything wrong. We don't know either way.

GZ (reportredly) saw a teen wandering around the neighborhood in the rain. Our neighborhood watch would pay attention to that as well (though obviously not go out with a gun and confront the guy). He said that the kid looked like he was high... and it turns out that he probably was.

He could have stayed in his car. He could have listened to the police and not followed Martin and just waited for the actual police to arrive. He did not.

Yes... he "could" have done all of those things. In fact he SHOULD have. But that doesn't mean that he HAD to.

[JoePhilly]

20. He calls Martin "the suspect" repeatedly ... its in the police reports.

And the reason we "assume" Martin wasn't doing anything wrong is because at no time in Zimmerman's call to the police does he say that Martin has done anything wrong.

There was no crime to report. Does your neighborhood watch call 9/11 anytime they see a teen walking through the neighborhood in the rain?

And how exactly does one, "look high?"

We also know that Martin went to the store, bought a drink and some candy, and was talking on the phone with a friend. We know this. It is a fact. Does that sound like he's up to no good to you? It sounds like common teen behavior to me.

The facts show that Zimmerman had no crime to suspect Martin of. There was no crime that had been committed. Zimmerman's defense does not even allege that there was a crime for which their must have been a "suspect".

The reason he did not do those things matters. He's calling 9/11 and he is following "the suspect". And this goes directly to Zimmerman's state of mind and provides him with a motive to confront the person he refers to as, "the suspect", Martin.

Meanwhile, the defense wants us to believe that it was Martin who confronted Zimmerman, who was apparently, minding his own business. While also calling 9/11 and following "the suspect".

[FBaggins]

21. Sorry... I wasn't clear enough.

I have no idea what GZ was thinking or why. What "we don't know" was that TM shouldn't be a suspect for a crime.

There had been multiple crimes committed in the neighborhood in the preceding three weeks involving young men hanging around the neighborhood. In one case, a home was broken in to and burglarized. In both cases that I've seen reported, the community watch reported the crime and the criminals got away. In the second case, one of the two youths involved was captured the following day with the stolen merchandise.

So forget GZ entirely... forget TM's color. He's just a teenage kid with a prior record of possessing stolen merchandise and taking drugs and violence. He's wandering around a neighborhood that in recent weeks had multiple occurrences of teens casing and/or breaking in to homes and escaping before the cops arrives... and it's raining but he's just wandering around.

Yes... in such a case, I would consider him a suspect in one of the prior crimes and/or possibly one that evening. I wouldn't chase after him with a gun. But there's no reason for a community watch captain to not consider him a suspect in a crime that did happen. The second kid involved in the break-in and theft was never caught. This is a neighborhood that had called the police hundreds of times in the prior year, so any unknown teen wandering around in the dark on a rainy night is going to get their attention.


And how exactly does one, "look high?"

My experience with such things is limited to movies (mostly comedies)... so I have no idea. Do you think it's just a really odd coincidence that he was, in fact, high?

[JoePhilly]

22. Let's examine something you just said here ...

You said ...

He's just a teenage kid with a prior record of possessing stolen merchandise and taking drugs and violence. He's wandering around a neighborhood that in recent weeks had multiple occurrences of teens casing and/or breaking in to homes and escaping before the cops arrives... and it's raining but he's just wandering around.

Notice the parts of this I put in bold.

1) ... with a prior record of possessing stolen merchandise and taking drugs and violence

2) ... in recent weeks ...

3) ... he's just wandering around.

Regarding #1 ... Zimmerman doesn't know any of what you allege here. So none of this gives Zimmerman a reason to suspect Martin of anything.

Regarding #2 ... other than being a teen, Zimmerman has no reason to assume Martin is one of the teens who was involved in those events. On that night, Martin has done nothing, other than be a teen, to lead one to that conclusion. And many of the calls you refer to later, were from Zimmerman, who had a history of calling the police about nonsense. But I think this is exactly what Zimmerman did. He decided that this kid was not going to get away.

Regarding #3 ... How does one walk to the store, and head home, and not appear to be wandering around? Is wandering around a crime of any kind?

Finally, on "looking high" ... let's assume Martin was high. Although that's actually questionable because of how little of the relevant chemicals were in his body at the time, and you can test positive for weeks after smoking pot. And, Zimmerman himself does not say he saw Martin smoking a joint. And no one else does either. But fine, let's assume Martin was high. The normal effect of pot is to make one more relaxed and docile, not more aggressive. So even if he was high (which again, is not known for sure), there is no reason to take from that the idea that Martin became violent. In fact, it suggests the exact opposite.

Zimmerman decides Martin is a suspect, and given the neighborhood history that you mention, Zimmerman follows Martin with the intent of assuring that "this suspect" will not get away, like has happened so many times in the past. That's why after calling 9/11, he still follows Martin. Zimmerman is not going to wait for the police and let "the suspect" get away again.

[FBaggins]

31. That's out of context.

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2013, 11:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Again... I'm not discussing what GZ knew. I'm talking about what we don't know. Absent the fact that he was a victim that night, we certainly have reason to think that he could have been one of the teens involved in crimes going on in the neighborhood. I would have been suspicious had I been there that night and I'm more suspicious now having read of his prior behavior. That doesn't mean that GZ behaved correctly or that TM deserved to die... it just means we don't know that TM was minding his own business and had done nothing wrong.

Zimmerman has no reason to assume Martin is one of the teens who was involved in those events.

There isn't any proof... but there's certainly reason. What do you think a neighborhood watch does? They're looking for people wandering around the neighborhood at night without an apparent reason. Maybe they're wrong 80% of the time, but it is what they do.

The normal effect of pot is to make one more relaxed and docile, not more aggressive.

That certainly fits the comedy films I've seen... but a quick google search found:

However, sometimes when people use cannabis it can cause fear, anxiety, panic or paranoia, resulting in an aggressive outburst. For most people, however, once the effects of the drug wear off, their behaviour gradually improves.

Studies show that violence can occur more often among people who use cannabis regularly,

and you can test positive for weeks after smoking pot

As I understand it, that's true for a urine test, but a blood test implies current intoxication.

Zimmerman decides Martin is a suspect, and given the neighborhood history that you mention, Zimmerman follows Martin with the intent of assuring that "this suspect" will not get away, like has happened so many times in the past.

That's right. What we don't know is what happened in between that and the shooting. Did he track him down and assault him and then freak out when TM's self defense was too effective? Or did he accuse TM and TM decided to attack him?

I have no idea... and neither person's record inspires confidence in their character.

[noiretextatique]

27. he didn't have any prior record...you are just making shit up

zimmerman, on the other, hand, has a verfiable history of violence.

[FBaggins]

30. Of course he did

He didn't have an arrest record, but there's plenty of evidence that he was far from an altar boy.

[Justice]

33. He wasn't wandering - he was walking.