2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI've been engaged in ...
what I hope to have been productive discussions, here on DU and in other places, with other Democrats. I have found myself, talking to some Democrats that have staked out the "Hold their feet to the fire/Hold them accountable" position (seemingly, exclusively, as they have nothing good to say about Democrats or President Obama).
I have a question, that I believe requires honest reflection ...
If, one claims to be a Democrat (or liberal), does the "Hold their feet to the fire/Hold them accountable" position, without any balance (i.e., recognition of the positives accomplished by Democrats), help or hurt the Democratic (liberal) cause?
I have concluded that this position is far more harmful, than helpful in that it dissuades/causes disaffection among those that are most inclined to move in the Democratic/liberal direction.
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Enrique
(27,461 posts)The corporations are exerting massive pressure on them, and if we don't exert pressure as well, the only pressure they will face is from the corporations, and the corporations will get everything they want, every time.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)addressing politicians/candidates or they campaigns directly ... unless people consider posting to an anonymous message board, talking to politicians/candidates. (I do not).
Nor am I talking about discussions we have with republicans or non-democrats. (I would hope that no Democrat or liberal considers having these "truth to power/feet to fire/hold them accountable" sonversations with non-Democrats, as helpful.)
No ... I am talking about conversations that we, Democrats, have with other Democrats/liberals.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)or expand their skills who went out and paid for a bunch of praise? Now. Have you ever known anyone who sought out the most critical, most particular mentors and coaches to hone their talents against strong unreserved criticism?
If you care about a person, do you want them to be their best or do you wish to see them told they are just fine as they are?
What do you say to TR who said 'To announce that there must be no criticism of the President and that we must stand by the President right or wrong is not only servile and unpatriotic, it is morally treasonable to the American public.'? Servile. I agree it is servile.
If you want to do the choir of praise routine, feel free. What I find most disturbing about your OP is not your desire to hear no criticism of elected officials but your rushing to criticize and characterize those who do not see a citizen's role as you do.
What you suggest is a dereliction of duty as an American. I'll never be that way. It's servile and unpatriotic.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)when seeking, or providing "professional coaching", one should do neither ... they shouldn't seek or provide only praise (but acknowledgement of strengths is a huge component of the coaching process) or exclusively "the most critical, most particular mentors and coaches to hone their talents against strong unreserved criticism" (though identification of weaknesses is equally important).
But, honestly, is that what is happening? Posting aggrievances to an anonymous message board is not talking to the person(s) you have the grievance(s) with ... it is about communicating messages to other people, the vast majority of which have no political ambition beyond voting and maybe sending a donation or volunteering on a campaign. And since that is the case, what is the purpose of having, exclusively, grievance postings to the complete ignoring (and even the denigration) of any positive? With respect to this specific board, a DU pointed out (half jokingly I suspect) a while back (something to the effect) the quickest route to the "greatest page" is to post in GD, the most inflammatory, anti-President Obama OP you can find (followed by posting something outrageous about the Democratic Party).
I agree.
Thank you ... I live for your permission.
If that is what you got from my post ... Then, I would suggest that that is EXACTLY the problem ... here:
That should help. But your posr DOES lend support to the original OP.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)They views themselves not as Democrats but as purer progressives, and identify with the "underground" part of "Democratic underground." They're members of third parties or anarchists whose goal is to strengthen their party or simply to weaken the Democratic party by stripping away support on the left.
This is why they have to be reminded during election season that they aren't supposed to be blatantly supporting a non-Democrat.They can't do that here during an election season, but they can spend the rest of the time denigrating Democrats any chance that they get.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And though the Democratic Party might not have its ducks all in a row, the 2014 election season can't get here too soon!
But if the TOSs are applied ... I predict a lot of whining and use of the words "censorship", "1st Amendment" and "DU is the worst place, everrrrrrr!"
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)"servile and unpatriotic" crack.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)does ... Just states opinion as fact, and when challenged regurgitates previously discredited argument (as if they were brand new), attempts to changes the argument (usually to something having to do with gay rights), then launches into insults (but on this front, we have progress ... at least this time he/she did not call me a homophobe! 
).
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)And yet you pull this he/she shit. You claim to know all about me. Funny that you insist upon that gender based insult. Funny as in ironic. You claim to know all about me, but you can't recall that I'm male, after having been told in the past in similar circumstances?
Seen your sort of stuff so many times over the years. So many, many times.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Characterizing other people is a tactic for those who have no other argument to make. It is pointless. Please proceed. Attempts to engage in discussion are met with personal attacks and wee gossip moments.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)
pscot
(21,024 posts)For the last 25 years (at least), the Democratic party has been moving away from democratic ideals and toward the money. Individual actions which are on their face benign, have done nothing to change the curve. Many of us hoped and believed Mr. Obama's presidency would be a game changer, based on his rhetoric and the fact that Democrats appeared to be firmly in control of both sides of the capitol. Government has been corrupted by money and secrecy. Mr. Obama has given us more of both. The American economy is in a 50 year secular downtrend. Empowering the bankers and increasing offshoring of jobs doesn't seem like the answer. Climate change is the most important and dangerous issue we face. The only way to address it is by reducing the amount of carbon we spew into the atmosphere. Not only has that not happened, our annual output of CO2 is steadily increasing and there are no initiatives in place or in planning to change that. Gradualism won't even postpone the reckoning.
My disaffection with the Democrats is in direct proportion to the seriousness of the problems we're facing. The country, and indeed, the human race, are neck deep in shit and the water is rising. Repeal of DOMA and modest health care reforms are nice, but by themselves don't mean squat.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Post a tantrum attacking Democratic voters and vanish into a Centrist Haze.....
Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #4)
1StrongBlackMan This message was self-deleted by its author.
Phillyindy
(406 posts)...liberals and democrats should act like right wingers living in a false reality bubble, totally hypocritical and unprincipled?
I understand what you're saying, and while sometimes liberals go too far in criticizing their own side just to prove how unbiased they are, in the end if you want any credibility as a party you have to be consistent. And the only reason politicians do anything is because the people force then too.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that was not my directly stated or implied question; but it does lend support to the original OP. Thanks.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Constant carping about everything lets the other side say, see, even his own voters don't like him.
That does not seem to affect Republicans to such a high degree. They know how to be winners.
Whoever said that (FDR?) lived in a different time. We should hold Boner's feet to the fire a lot more. Make the Republicans feel their position is shaky. Sounding just like them doing nothing but carping at the Democrats is not going to get us anywhere.
After four years of carping on DU, now going on five, the purity left still doesn't see that they have made no progress.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I am not concerned about the other side; nor, am I particularly concerned about the carping on DU (or other "Democratic Party" supporting sites).
What concerns me greatly is/are the conversations Democrats have with Democrats/liberals, but more, to unknown audiences, outside of these forums.
No ... they see it very clearly ( ... as did Don Quixote). That's what invigorates them.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)I have read your posts and always found them insightful and non-offensive. There is a large amount of vitriol within DU these days, maybe more so than back during the 2008 primary. It will be interesting to see if that ever changes.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as to the root of the "polarization" on this site (as with other sites that I visit that are experiencing similiar "polarization"
. I will not post my thought to an open forum, as it would either be dismissed as DU whining.
But suffice it to say ... most of the polarization on this (and other sites) is as authentic as the 2009 healthcare town hall meetings' polarization.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)
hay rick
(7,590 posts)Self-styled moderate Democrats are what the Republicans used to be and Republicans are mostly batshit crazy. Given that choice, my preference is "none of the above."
I do not think that economic progress should mean that median incomes decline. A party that endorses or tolerates that outcome is unacceptable to me. I think neoliberal "Democrats" have accepted the inevitability of a declining standard of living for the majority of Americans.
Of course we should hold their feet to the fire. They are letting us down.
I'm not disappointed, I'm angry- and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I have started volunteering with my local Democratic Party. I do not see a viable alternative to the Democratic Party so I am working to reform it. Saying conciliatory things to folks who I think are doing the wrong thing "but they are not as bad as Republicans" is not part of that process.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Let me ask a question:
Has the (current) Democratic Party and/or President Obama done anything that you approve of? And, if so, does that (those) enter into your process/discussions?
hay rick
(7,590 posts)From my point of view, one of the President's "original sins" was taking single-payer off the table. I think PPACA is a failure of vision and commits us to a highly-privatized, extremely expensive system that still excludes an unconscionable number of people.
On the other hand, I recognize that Obamacare is still an improvement over the existing system. I can munch on sour grapes or I can help to implement this modest improvement. I have involved myself with pre-enrollment and outreach to help people understand the law and how they can gain coverage. I'm not the only one. Our local Democratic Party has attracted Occupy veterans who are part of the outreach push.
I'm working to make the President's signature program as successful as it can be- but I'm still not a fan. I view his neoliberal wing of the party as part of the problem, not part of the solution.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I completely understand where you are coming from and respect this comment and attitude, as it is in short supply:
I applaud not only your attitude; but you effort.
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)But holding its feet to the fire, to the extent that the party's crippled in the fight against the Rethugs, is self-defeating.
hay rick
(7,590 posts)Right here on DU. It helps me vent some of my frustration. In the real world I'm helping elect blue dogs in a red area. The first chapter of that story: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021798362
pnwmom
(108,959 posts)
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)in a way you are not advocating a Democratic Republic. Political parties are not sports teams that you root for.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I am not talking about "opposition" ... rather, I am asking whether discussions that fail to acknowledge any positives helps or hinders the Democratic/liberal cause?
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)so, yes you missed the point. Political parties are not sports teams you root for blindly and blissfully. Progressives will never be like Republicans in lock step, so the third wayers crying about why we can't shut up and sit down need to accept this reality.
Democracies are forged through opposition and then compromise from both sides. Without opposition you have lopsided situations and why the country is being pulled to the right.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I am not saying or implying that "progressives" shut up or sit down ... I am asking whether you think presenting an exclusively negative message (with respect to Democrats, in general, and President Obama, in particular), ignoring any positives is helping or hurting the Democratic/liberal cause, when talking to Democrats, liberals and/or unaffiliated persons?
You, apparently, see presenting a balanced message as cheer-leading; I do not.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)unreasonable change in a short period of time, especially in light of unprecedented obstruction and what is the deliberate slowness of governing. We have to be reasonable. That is what I find lacking in liberalism. We are not reasonable. We tend to be impatient and unreasonable. I say this as a liberal and a proud one at that.
Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)every single thing Obama and his adminstration do. There are some of these who I have literally never seen a single word in support of Obama from.
You probably have some idea who I am referring to. I believe them to be RW disruptors who have managed to skirt just under the radar for long enough that it's almost impossible to get rid of them. One of them has 0% chance of being on a jury and has almost 40 posts hidden in the past 90 days, which says a lot.
I have no idea why the admins let them stir up such endless shit.
Skittles
(153,122 posts)it puts DU back to the way it used to be
Arkana
(24,347 posts)whenever we are able.
But I also recognize the folly of asking for the moon. Obama's the President, not God, and not a tyrant. To implement his agenda he needs the cooperation of about a thousand divergent political leanings--half of whom think he's a Communazi Marxist Kenyan usurper who stole the Presidency from a more-deserving whi--er, Republican.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Despite dissapointments, many seem to forget the alternative.
By all means, protest policies you don't like. I know I do. But also recognize what good gets done.
If you want an example of what withholding your vote looks like - see Texas or North Carolina