Florida theater shooting suspect was "in fear of being attacked." Here comes "Stand Your Ground"

[Redfairen]

He hasn't invoked Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law yet but his statement to police sure makes it look like he has that in mind. He's a retired cop. He knows the law. I bet this guy's gonna walk just like Zimmerman.



A 71-year-old retired police officer accused of shooting a man dead in a Florida movie theater told authorities that "he was in fear of being attacked" during Monday's confrontation. Curtis Reeves is charged with second-degree murder in the death of 43-year-old Chad Oulson. A judge ordered Reeves held without bond during a court hearing Tuesday afternoon.

Pasco County Sheriff's officials say Reeves initially asked Oulson to stop texting at the theater in Wesley Chapel, a suburb about a half-hour north of downtown Tampa. Sheriff's Detective Allen Proctor wrote that Reeves spoke to Oulson during the movie previews, then got up from his seat and informed management.

When Reeves returned to his seat "additional words were exchanged" and Oulson threw a bag of popcorn at Reeves, the report said.

After officers read him his rights, Reeves told the detective that Oulson struck him in the face with an unknown object, and that's when he removed a .380 caliber gun from his pants pocket. The report said Reeves fired the gun and struck Oulson once in the chest and that he "was in fear of being attacked."

http://m.detnews.com/nation/article?a=2014301140046&f=1212

[SoCalMusicLover]

1. Only In America

Acquittal forthcoming.

[upaloopa]

5. Well the victim was armed with popcorn.

I think the majority of gun carriers are like the shooter. Paranoid walking time bombs who got a gun because they live in fear of some fantasy bad guy.
Society is in danger because so many carry a gun. And don't give me that BS that there are less killings even with more carriers.

[Ranchemp.]

38. Unadulderated b**ls**t.

[upaloopa]

59. Well we all have an opinion don't we

[Ranchemp.]

60. That we do. eom.

[Purveyor]

2. When I heard mentioned this morning that 'popcorn was thrown', I knew then this is where this

was heading.

Also read a report that the shooter is being held without bond so that is a bit of a good sign.

[meadowlark5]

3. Of course he will walk. Does anyone doubt he will?

It seems pretty straight forward - if you live in Florida and if you intentionally or accidentally kill someone, all you need to say is you felt your life threatened and *voila* you're free to go.

[phantom power]

19. He might not walk, because the guy he shot was white.

Stand Your Ground is apparently only fool-proof against black people.

[Carolina]

29. Exactly

He shot a white, 42 year old family man AND wounded the man's wife! There are witnesses, including the injured wife, so this may not play out so easily for that retired cop who should know when/if deadly force is warranted. Frankly, I think he went out to get his gun!

Texting during the previews is not a capital offense, and the cop provoked the whole episode (a la Zimmerman), but this time, a jury of white women could easily see themselves in the place of the new widow or the mother of the victim. So, Mr. Stand Your Ground will have a harder time, and speaking of time, I hope he ends up doing some quality time in prison with some of the very dudes he locked up.

[Ranchemp.]

39. I highly doubt he'll walk.

But time will tell.

[Gothmog]

57. I do not think that he meets the standard of the SYG defense

You have to meet a reasonable person test and I doubt that a jury would find this to be reasonable

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Yep, that popcorn can really leave bruises.

[exboyfil]

6. The gold standard will be Trevor Dooley

All agree he was leaving when his victim grabbed him by the throat and took him to the ground. Dooley was convicted of manslaughter. He was an elderly black man who shot a middle aged man with a young daughter. I don't think this shooter will walk - he will use diminished capacity (being 71). He may plead out to manslaughter (even though it is murder).

What if a young black man had thrown the popcorn?

[Kelvin Mace]

10. Didn't he leave the theatre

then come back with the gun?

If he did, seems like text book "premeditation".

[exboyfil]

15. He left the theatre

supposedly to get management. If he went to get his gun, then there will be no plea bargain. They might even go for the death penalty.

[Aristus]

7. "Help me, Smith & Wesson! Save me from the popcorn!"

Last edited Tue Jan 14, 2014, 05:39 PM - Edit history (1)

With the popcorn and the phone, the victim had exactly as many deadly weapons on him as Trayvon Martin had on him.

So yeah, brain-dead bumfuck asshole is going to walk...

[Baitball Blogger]

23. It's Florida popcorn.

It's as lethal as lead knuckle gloves.

[Hoyt]

8. Nope, you gotta shoot a minority for that racist law to work.

[blkmusclmachine]

12. +1

[Ranchemp.]

40. .....

[Hoyt]

42. I guess, Renchemp, you are trying to tell us you don't see the racism in Florida's SYG laws.

[Ranchemp.]

44. No, I don't.

African Americans benefit from Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” self-defense law at a rate far out of proportion to their presence in the state’s population, despite an assertion by Attorney General Eric Holder that repealing “Stand Your Ground” would help African Americans.

Black Floridians have made about a third of the state’s total “Stand Your Ground” claims in homicide cases, a rate nearly double the black percentage of Florida’s population. The majority of those claims have been successful, a success rate that exceeds that for Florida whites.

Nonetheless, prominent African Americans including Holder and “Ebony and Ivory” singer Stevie Wonder, who has vowed not to perform in the Sunshine State until the law is revoked, have made “Stand Your Ground” a central part of the Trayvon Martin controversy.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/blacks-benefit-from-florida-stand-your-ground-law-at-disproportionate-rate/#ixzz2qUa9tTzJ

But, I know damn well you won't believe it because it doesn't fit your meme.

[Hoyt]

47. The laws intent is obvious to most. It was written by NRA and pushed by right/white wing legislators

It is not surprising that you think it is a progressive law.

Here are some articles for you, and others who believe SYG laws are cool:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/18/1239759/-Report-on-Stand-Your-Ground-Laws-Highlights-Racial-Disparities

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/21/do-stand-your-ground-laws-encourage-vigilantes/racism-is-the-problem-not-the-stand-your-ground-laws

The one below may help you put your daily caller conservative BS inperspective.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=242358456

[Ranchemp.]

50. I knew it.

the Daily Caller took the stats from this.

http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-ground-law/fatal-cases

Hardly a RW rag.
Read it and weep.

[Hoyt]

53. You kniew it, but still posted a link to the right wing rag. Damn.

Please see links I provided written/produced by non-gun smitten/fancying/promoting folks explaining the racial context of the stand your ground law, and your misinterpretation of the statistics you believe prove SYG is a fine, racially friendly law.

[Ranchemp.]

54. Yeahhhhhh, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight Hoyt.

[Hoyt]

55. Obviously, you will continue to promote the white wing view on Florida's Stand Your Ground laws.

[Ranchemp.]

56. Okkkkkay.

Whatever you say there Hoyt.

Your attempts to insult me and label me are really failing, my advice, freely given of course, is give up while you're behind.
Of course, you can continue to make an a** of yourself if you please.

[Hoyt]

48. By the way, Renchamp, did you intend to use the right wing rag -- Daily Caller -- as your proof?

You really need to make sure you know from where you post.

[Ranchemp.]

51. See post #50.

But, I know, once again, you'll dismiss it because it doesn't fit your biases or meme.

Point is, you've been schooled.

[Kelvin Mace]

9. He may not walk

Is the victim white?

[blkmusclmachine]

11. Stand Your Ground ??? Two thumbs down !!!

[Downwinder]

13. Say the magic words.

[spin]

21. Almost everybody who kills another person in legitimate self defense ...

and also those who murder another person (including criminals who have no right to even own a firearm) know the "magic words" to use when talking to law enforcement.

To be fair if you have no reason to fear for your health or your life, you have no reason to use lethal force.

Like it or not, there are times when lethal force is justified.

Lets suppose my next door neighbor's dog is shitting in my yard. I confront him while he is outside chopping up a fallen tree branch with a machete and suggest he trains his dog better. The argument escalates and he attacks me with his machete and I shoot him. This would be considered legitimate self defense and since I live in Florida, I could "stand my ground" and not be required to retreat. (In my case that might be wise as I am a candidate for a hip replacement and I don't run but at the best limp fast.)

Now let's consider the same situation with the exception that my neighbor is watering his flowers. He attacks me with the water hose and I shoot him. I end up in jail as even though I claimed that I was in "fear for my life," A reasonable man standing in my shoes would not have reached the same conclusion.

Now let's discuss how I would actually handle the situation. Being a non-confrontational type of person, I would merely pick up my neighbors dog poop with a shovel and throw it back into his yard.

[Hoyt]

25. Spin, gunners are always fabricating such irrational scenarios. That's why they shouldn't tote.

It's irrational to even think like that, much less post such thoughts.

Further, approaching your neighbor with a gun in your pants just ain't right. Jeeebus.

Your post is a perfect example of why we need to do something about gun owners in this country.

[Ranchemp.]

41. .....

You should be ashamed of some of the crap you post.

[Hoyt]

43. Tell us about it gun fancier. Do you walk up to your neighbors with your gun? Do you have fears

of your neighbor attacking you with a machete? If so, maybe you ought to hang up your gunz before it's too late.

[Ranchemp.]

45. Gun Fancier?

Is that all you've got?

Do you have any clue of how you sound right now?

[spin]

46. You may have noticed there were three scenarios. ...

The machete scenario, I made up.

The water hose scenario was originally published in the FAQ section on the State of Florida official web site for concealed weapons permit.

The third scenario is what I have actually done in the past.

Now let's discuss how I would actually handle the situation. Being a non-confrontational type of person, I would merely pick up my neighbors dog poop with a shovel and throw it back into his yard.

In passing I have talked to the owner of the house next to mine with a gun in my pocket. I was out walking a dog and he was working on the house to prep it for renting. He also had a gun in his pocket and it was a S&W Model 642 .38 caliber snub nosed revolver just like mine. We both have a license to carry and we do. We are actually friends and he occasionally stops by my home to talk politics. He is not the neighbor I mentioned in scenario number three and doesn't own a dog.

Anecdotes and scenarios are commonly used to effectively illustrate a point during conversation, in books and in classrooms.

[Hoyt]

49. Spin, I notice as a gun toter that you have some serious paranoia. I think that is an issue.

You have previously expressed your fear of people on the street. Now you are in fear of your neighbor trimming his trees. I think that "effectively illustrates the point" that your should reconsider toting lethal weapons.

[Ranchemp.]

52. You calling him paranoid is really funny.

Considering...............................................................

[Hoyt]

66. Hey, I don't need a gun to walk down the street or say hello to my neighbor.

[Ranchemp.]

68. Just a can of beans or a bicycle tire, right? eom.

[spin]

63. Wow. ...

First I am not living in fear of people on the street. If in the unlikely chance that I were to be attacked, I am armed. I practice situational awareness and that tactic alone will allow me to avoid getting involved in most dangerous situations.

3 Quick Tips to Reduce Your Chances of Being a Crime Victim
JULY 28, 2013 by [e-mail]

***snip***

The next time you are out in public, implement these three tips:

Be aware of your surroundings. As you step out of the door of the building, or before you exit your vehicle, look around you. Take notice of other people and other vehicles in the area. Is the area well lit? Are there a lot of other people around? Does anyone appear to be lurking or acting strangely? Just taking that moment to focus on your present surroundings, to get out of your own head, will make you less vulnerable and less likely to be victimized.

Put your cell phone away before leaving the building or exiting your vehicle. The Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles reports an increase in pedestrian deaths, due in large part to distracted pedestrians stepping in front of oncoming cars. What is distracting them? Texting! It is illegal to text and drive in Florida. It is not illegal to text and walk, but it can be just as dangerous! If you are texting, you are not paying attention to what is going on around you, and that makes you a prime target for criminals looking for an easy mark. Put your cell phone away, either in your pocket or your purse, before you leave the building or exit your vehicle. Not only is texting or talking on the phone distracting but, if you are the victim of an attack, you’ll want to have your hands free so you’ll be in a better position to defend yourself.

Walk with purpose. Keep your head up and look around you as you walk. Let others know you see them, but do not hold eye contact (which could be perceived as a challenge). Organize your packages and personal property before you walk out the door of a building or exit your vehicle. You do not want to look scattered and unorganized. People who present themselves with confidence are less likely to become victims of a crime. Criminals look for an easy target, a person they think will be caught off guard and won’t fight back. Don’t be that person!
http://www.360personalprotection.com/2013/07/28/3-quick-tips-to-reduce-your-chances-of-being-a-crime-victim/

The scenerio I descried involving a neighbor was to illustrate a situation in which the use of lethal force would be justified. I was not describing my fear of my neighbors as I am on friendly terms with everybody who lives near me.

The fact that I have a different attitude than you do on the issue of legal concealed carry does not prove that I am excessively paranoid. It merely shows that I understand reality better than you do and simply wish to be prepared.

August 22, 2013, 3:27 pm 71
How Rare Is Crime?

***snip***

.... But I’m also interested in the question of whether it makes sense to describe crime itself as “rare.” It is rare in the specific sense that Beutler suggests: Most people aren’t would-be muggers, and even in areas with relatively high crime rates, the average encounter on the average street on average day has a vanishingly small chance of turning violent.

But at the same time, crime is common enough that it’s quite likely to happen to the average person at some point in time. Not that the average person will go through what Beutler went through, mercifully. But over a span of years, your odds of experiencing at least an attempted robbery or an attempted assault are pretty good.

How good? Well, that depends on the crime rate over time. In the 1980s, the Bureau of Justice Statistics tried to quantify the “lifetime likelihood of victimization,” by assuming that the American crime rate over that hypothetical lifetime averaged what it averaged from 1975 to 1984. (Those were, of course, high crime years; more on that below.) The study calculated that at those rates, 83 percent of Americans could expect to be victims of an attempted robbery, rape or assault at least once as an adult; 40 percent could expect to be injured in a robbery or assault; 72 percent of households could expect to be burglarized and 20 percent could expect to have a car stolen, and 99 percent of the population (that is, everybody) could expect to experience some kind of personal theft.

These numbers don’t suggest that crime is a regular occurrence in law-abiding lives; it is not. But they suggest that it can be a normal occurrence, in the sense of being something that you have to be prepared for, something that you can reasonably expect to have to deal with at some point, and something that will definitely affect somebody you care about even if it doesn’t touch you directly. (As a personal aside, I would hazard that my own experience is probably fairly typical: My parents’ home was burglarized when I was a teenager, I had my nose broken in Adams Morgan in the early 2000s, our car was stolen two years ago, and then I have various one or two-degrees-of-separation connection to incidents that involved extended hospitalization or worse.)
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/22/how-rare-is-crime/

My mother died when she was 89. She was only attacked one time in her life. She was returning home from work in the 1920s and got off at a bus stop with a couple of blocks to walk before she reached her home.

A man who had been hiding behind some bushes rushed her. Fortunately she had a S&W .22 caliber snub nosed revolver in her purse. She drew it and fired two shots over the attacker's head. He ran.

[lame54]

14. What movie was he about to see? - maybe he can blame that

[JoePhilly]

17. Sole Survivor.

[polichick]

16. Seems there's a whole country of armed white guys...

in fear of being attacked.

[spin]

18. He may well walk free. ...

Much will depend on the facts in the case, not the newspaper report.

Remember also that we are dealing with an incident involving an elderly 71 year old man versus a much younger 43 year old male. The judge who may rule that the incident falls under the "stand your ground" law or the jury at the trial may consider the health history of the elderly man and if he has significant medical problems may rule in his favor. Realistically a 71 year old man in poor health has little chance of surviving an attack by a much younger individual in good physical condition. That's why police officers often retire after 20 or 30 years on the force.

Also I understand by talking to a local police officer that once a citizen reaches the age of 65, the law allows him more leeway when using a handgun for self defense against a much younger opponent than they would a victim under age 65. (I can't find any references to this in Florida law but that may just be a failure of my google-fu.)

Please realize that I am not defending the ex-police officer's action in the incident. I have no idea of exactly what went down and a significant distrust of newspaper reports based on my own experiences. I am merely commenting on the possibility that the ex-police officer will be found not guilty or that the case will fall under the "stand your ground" law in Florida and there is no trial. I will wait for more information before I form my opinion on the case.

Many years ago I read a piece of advice that might relate to this situation:

Never start a fight with an old man because if he can't fight you, he may just kill you.

[Blue_Tires]

22. That last bit of advice should be

Never start a fight with ANY random person because if he starts losing, he may just shoot you....

Rightly or wrongly, my parents hammered that thought into my head nonstop once I became a teenager...

[spin]

24. I agree. The best way to survive a fight without injury is not to get into one. (n/t)

[MillennialDem]

64. No reasonable person is going to be in fear of his or her life if threatened by an

unarmed individual in a movie theater with tons of bystanders to break up any potential fight. I don't care if he was 71 or 101.

Threatened by a younger person while alone? Sure. In a crowded movie theater, I don't think so. Physically attacked in a crowded movie theater? Maybe, but no report of shoving or punching.

[NoGOPZone]

20. Remind me not to carry popcorn or SKittles on my next Fla. visit nt.

[Thor_MN]

28. What next Florida visit?

I've been there 4 times, have no need to middle Florida again. The right woman could talk me into the Keys, but the rest of the state, I've seen enough of it.

[Common Sense Party]

26. .

[question everything]

27. Was the movie sold out?

If he was annoyed - and I would, too, if the bright screen would be in my peripheral vision - and he did leave his seat, why did he have to return to the same place?

And if he really fear for his safety, why not try to hit the guy with the butt of his gun instead of shooting him point blank?

[kestrel91316]

30. Picked a fight, then whipped out a gun and murdered the person he was picking on.

Yep, in FL he'll walk, especially if he's white. It's that holy cop thing.

[Rosco T.]

31. Sheriff: 'Stand your ground' won't apply to ex-cop who allegedly shot texting dad at movies

http://thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/florida-movie-theater-shooting/

(snip)

The Florida sheriff's office investigating the case said Reeves would not be able to defend himself using the state's controversial "stand your ground" laws.

"It was determined that the stand your ground case - no, does not fly here in this case," says Pasco County Sheriff Chris Nocco.

[UCmeNdc]

32. He did not shoot a black man

The Florida sheriff's office investigating the case said Reeves would not be able to defend himself using the state's controversial "stand your ground" laws.

"It was determined that the stand your ground case - no, does not fly here in this case," says Pasco County Sheriff Chris Nocco.


The victim has to be black for the law to apply.

[mnhtnbb]

33. Yeah, the other guy was only armed with popcorn. Stand your ground requires skittles as a weapon

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. These gunner shitheads live in constant fear...it's incredible how terrified they are

Bunch of cowards.

These people leave their homes thinking "I may be attacked and killed by a stranger out there today." That's the only reason one would feel the need to bring a gun to a fucking movie theater - in the afternoon, in a nice area! Everywhere, everywhere, the evil lurks, waiting to attack me, to kill me! This is the sicko mentality of the gun nut shithead.

It's coward shit.

[Hosnon]

35. I'm staying away from FL until they repeal that law. nt.

[spin]

67. I doubt if that will happen anytime soon. ....

Florida panel rejects ‘Stand Your Ground’ law repeal, expands its scope instead
Published time: November 08, 2013 22:29
Edited time: November 08, 2013 23:06 Get short URL

A panel of Florida lawmakers heartily defeated Thursday a measure to repeal the state’s Stand Your Ground law, though it did approve legislation to expand the law’s protection to those who fire a warning shot.

***snip***

Many state legislators, some not on the panel, voiced their support the law, which they painted as a vital self-defense law, if not a right.

“Today, our state is a safer place and has the lowest crime rate in 42 years,” said Rep. Marti Coley (R). “Florida’s Stand Your Ground law is solid. It’s good and should not be changed.”
http://rt.com/usa/florida-defends-stand-your-ground-458/

Poll: Floridians Overwhelmingly Support Stand Your Ground Law
By: James Taylor | July 22, 2013

Floridians overwhelmingly support the state’s “Stand Your Ground” law, according to a new poll of 900 registered voters. According to the nonpartisan Viewpoint Florida public opinion research group, 81 percent of Florida voters want to retain the law either in its current form or with some modifications, while only 13 percent favor repealing the law.

According to the poll, 50 percent of Florida voters support retaining the Stand Your Ground law in its current form. Another 31 percent support the law but would like to see it modified. Only 13 percent favor repealing the law.

Notably, independent voters supported the Stand Your Ground law more than Florida voters as a whole. The poll found 57 percent of independent voters support retaining the law in its current form, 25 percent support the law but would like to see modifications, and only 9 percent favor repealing the law.

Even Democrats generally supported Stand Your Ground. Among Democrats, 27 percent support retaining the Stand Your Ground law in its current form, 47 percent support the law but would like to see modifications, and only 22 percent favor an outright repeal.
http://mediatrackers.org/florida/2013/07/22/poll-floridians-overwhelmingly-support-stand-your-ground-law

[StarlightGold]

36. This morning...

I think it was the Today Show...anyway...they had a report that another couple was "spoken to" by Reeves at the same theater about them texting. One of them said that Reeves kept giving them dirty looks after he confronted them about their texting.

I don't know how long ago this was.

[CANDO]

37. If thats true...

This guy has control freak issues. Doesn't surprise me, tons of police seek out the profession to satiate the need for control and authority over others.

[Gothmog]

58. Shooter has tried to invoke the SYG law

According to this report, the shooter's attorney has already tried to invoke the stand your ground law http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/15/justice/florida-movie-theater-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Reeves made his first court appearance Tuesday on a charge of second-degree murder.

His attorney, Richard Escobar, tried to persuade Circuit Court Judge Lynn Tepper that his client was actually the victim in the incident and that Oulson was the "aggressor."

Police said despite Reeves' claim that he was in fear for his safety, this was not a case for Florida's "stand your ground" defense.

"Working with the state attorney's office it was determined that stand-your-ground does not fly here in this case," Nocco said.

Authorities said a preliminary investigation determined that there was no physical contact during the incident. It was popcorn, thrown by Oulson, that struck Reeves.

One has to have a reasonable basis to be in fear and so far the district attorney and the judge are taking the position that SYG does not apply in this case.

[hollowdweller]

61. Give Em Enough Rope

The assault weapons ban was repealed and the gun industry has gone further and further into producing military style weapons and generating apocalypse type porn to sell them.

States everywhere have enacted concealed carry laws but then the gun rights organizations went further and have sort of tried to make it easier for people to use these weapons with impunity.

I think they should have left well enough alone when the loosening of regs wasn't really causing any problems but I fear they have now reached a tipping point where there will be a significant backlash due to the spate of mass shooting and vigilante BS like this.

[Ranchemp.]

62. The AWB was not repealed,

it was allowed to sunset per the clause in the bill, the Congress, both Dems and Repubs., refused to renew it despite GWB saying if it made it to his desk, he would sign it.

[Iceberg Louie]

65. Still waiting on that secession the South keeps teasing us with...

...or at least for FL to break off and drift into the Caribbean.