Bernie Sanders 'evolved' on same-sex marriage, along with his state - just like O'Malley

[bigtree]

The meme being promoted by Sanders supporters is that he was for marriage equality 40 years ago. That may well be true, but the 'evidence' being bandied about - an article from 40 years ago - doesn't say anything of the kind.



Granted, Sanders writes:

"Lets abolish all laws dealing with abortion, drugs, sexual behavior (adultery, homosexuality, etc.).

That's not the same as calling for same-sex marriage. We can certainly project that onto those remarks, but it's just not stated in there.

One of the wedges being promoted by some supporters here at DU is that O'Malley was once in favor of civil unions. An article presented as evidence of a 'wavering' O'Malley early in his public career makes what is supposed to be a damning indictment:

The problem with O’Malley is that he’s had more positions on marriage than all the 2016 hopefuls combined. And after pushing for civil unions right up until 2011, he now wants voters to believe that he’s a pioneer on the issue. What nerve! . . .

Whoa... so Martin O'Malley was supportive of civil unions before he fought successfully for a same-sex marriage law in Md.? That MUST make Bernie Sanders the undisputed champion of marriage equality in this campaign, right? Wrong.

See, Vermont, Sanders' home-state also went through an 'evolution' of support for marriage equality. Vermont first passed legislation creating civil unions in the year 2000, signed into law by Gov. Howard Dean. Vermont didn't manage passage of same-sex marriage legislation until 2009, becoming the fifth state to afford legal recognition to same-sex marriages.

Where did Bernie Sanders stand on all of this? From his website:

"In Vermont, Sanders supported the state’s 2000 civil unions law and the 2009 law legalizing gay marriage. "

Baazinga! Turns out, Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley's support for civil unions and then full same-sex marriage rights is practically identical. Both 'evolved' from supporting what was politically possible at the time in their states, civil unions, to support for full marriage equality.

One difference, Martin O'Malley put his political career on the line for his beliefs and personally led the fight for the changes in the law he believed in. An opportunistic difference, perhaps - Sanders was in Congress and O'Malley was a governor - but the suggestion there's something wrong in Martin O'Malley's 'evolution' on the issue of same-sex marriage either applies to Bernie Sanders, as well, or it applies to neither candidate.

[FSogol]

1. K & R. n/t

[Romeo.lima333]

2. evolved meaning waiting untill it was politically safe

[bigtree]

4. that's what we called politically 'possible' in our state in those days

...you can posture about political courage all you want and still come up empty when the voting is done. Legislators faced sometimes withering resistance to any change in the law. However, one thing you're overlooking is that O'Malley actually had a career on the line in front of his support; unlike others who could advocate for whatever they wanted from a comfortable distance.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. I love Hillary, Barack, and Joe...My posts demonstrate that...

But I'm not a naif. It's no coincidence that all three became proponents of marriage equality within months of one another, and after the polls suggested favoring marriage equality was a political winner.

[bigtree]

13. only one of those faced direct political consequence from their decision

...and only one managed his beliefs through a resistant and divided legislature , and later, a wary electorate who voted twice for George Bush.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. I like O'Malley... So he's a little more politically brave than HRC, BHO, and JB.

At the end of the day they are all politicians, albeit ones I like, and whose hearts are in the right place.

[dsc]

23. No that electorate hadn't

Maryland was won by both Gore and Kerry.

[still_one]

29. Frankly, I believe that is what President Obama did. It wasn't until his second term when he came

Last edited Thu Jul 2, 2015, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)

out for gay rights in force, though I believe he was always for gay rights and same sex marriage. In this case he played it beautifully. He kept pretty subdued during his first term, and after he won the second term, he made it an issue. There is no doubt if he came out for it in his first term the republicans would have made it a major issue. Just look what they did with the ACA, and how they are going bananas over his executive appointments and minimum wage.

Sometimes you have to pick when to fight your battles in order to win.

[Cha]

39. Thank you, still one

[still_one]

43. Aloha, Cha

[Cha]

46. Aloha to you, still one!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. HRC, BHO, BS, MO, JW and LC are politicians...

If you would have asked me forty years ago if two guys or two gals could marry I would have said "whatever floats your boat" but I didn't have to win an election which is contingent on getting a plurality or majority of folks to agree with me.

Yeah, all their hearts are in the right place and they are generally moving in the right direction but they are three dimensional figures and not cardboard saints...

Oh, and most folks don't care if you're a flip flopper as long as you're flip flopping in their direction.

[riversedge]

40. well said.

[elleng]

5. 'either applies to Bernie Sanders, as well, or it applies to neither candidate'

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. These gentlemen and women are politicians./nt

[GeorgeGist]

7. Are you saying there were no laws against homosexual marriage when Barry wrote that letter?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. There were laws everywhere...I can't imagine the struggles gay folks faced then.../nt

[bigtree]

11. I admitted you could interpret that into his statement

,,,yet, even in that support you believe might be apparent in his remarks, Sanders evidently didn't view civil unions as the outrage that's been associated here (and in that silly article) with O'Malley.

If Martin 'evolved' on this issue then so did Bernie. The difference with Sanders is that his remarks were undefined, mostly inconsequential to any opposition to same-sex marriage, and made without any consequence to his career based on the specific issue of marriage equality. I suppose you'll explain next how same-sex marriage was a prominent issue 40 years ago.

[dsc]

47. acutally that would be correct

it was a definition of marriage as one man and one woman which means removing that would remove marriage altogether which is why no one, not a single, solitary soul in 1972 reading that letter would have thought he meant to institute marriage equality.

[virtualobserver]

10. it says more than that

the line above it says.....Lets abolish ALL laws which attempt to impose
a particular brand of morality or "right" on people.

That would cover restricting Gay Marriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_same-sex_marriage#1970s

Michael McConnell (l) and Jack Baker apply at the Hennepin County courthouse for a license to marry.
October 15 1971: The Supreme Court of the U.S. state of Minnesota upholds the decision of a lower court that denying a marriage license to a same-sex couple did not violate the U.S. Constitution." This was in reference to a marriage application filed by activist Jack Baker and Michael McConnell in 1970, which garnered extensive media attention. An appeal of that decision ended when the U.S. Supreme Court accepted the case as required by a law in effect but then dismissed it "for want of a substantial federal question". (see Baker v. Nelson). Until 1973, there was no restriction on gender in any marriage statute in any state within the U.S.

1. two years before Bernie ran for Governor
2. extensive media attention

Bernie is an activist. He would have been aware.

[bigtree]

12. maybe, but he didn't express that

...not exactly sticking his neck out for same sex marriage without specifically labeling his opposition as such.

Still, don't brush past the main point. Sanders and O'Malley both initially supported what was politically possible in their states, civil unions, before they were specifically expressing support for same-sex marriage outright. Hell, it took almost a decade after the passage of civil unions before same-sex marriage passed in Vermont; the fifth state to do so; Maryland being the eighth.

Also don't forget that O'Malley actually shepherded his beliefs through a legislature, not merely voicing support from a distance.

[virtualobserver]

18. the title of your post says he evolved.....he didn't evolve- title not correct

He was very clear

".Lets abolish ALL laws which attempt to impose
a particular brand of morality or "right" on people."

I guarantee that he feels exactly the same way today.

So, you imagine that basing his campaign on these principles wasn't sticking his neck out.

Bernie has lived his entire life with his neck out.

[bigtree]

21. either both evolved from civil unions to full marriage equality

...or neither did, both positions are consistent with the later support for current law in their states.

Bernie may well have had his 'neck out,' but O'Malley was actually directly involved in the earlier attempts in the nation to make his beliefs a reality in my state; Vermont fifth; Maryland eighth state to pass full equality rights. Any way you slice it, O'Malley's career was more on the line that Bernie's for his support - and he backed up his words with real action.

[virtualobserver]

22. I see no reason to believe that O'Malley evolved either

I like them both.

[Capt. Obvious]

14. This letter also says nothing about his love of ice cream

I think that was another evolution of his.

[Bjorn Against]

15. Support for a civil unions bill does not mean he opposed marriage equality

Lots of people who support marriage equality supported civil union bills because they thought they were better than nothing, that does not mean they thought that civil unions went far enough. There is a big difference between supporting civil unions as a stepping stone to marriage equality and supporting civil unions as an end game.

Do you have any evidence that Sander's opposed marriage equality at the time he expressed support for the civil unions bill?

[bigtree]

17. nowhere does O'Malley say he opposes marriage equality either

...certainly not by stating what he was 'raised to believe.'

Are you following this post correctly? He could have meant it in his statement. Who knows. He probably supported it.

But the POINT in this post is that support for civil unions, and later full marriage equality, isn't something to damn a candidate for. If it's damning for O'Malley, as some here at DU (and in that critical article) insist, it's damning for Sanders. Both made a similar 'evolution' to current law. that's more political reality, than a reflection of their personal convictions.

[Bjorn Against]

19. I am not familiar enough with O'Malley's position to comment on him

I know that Bernie has supported gay rights for decades and I know Hillary has opposed marriage equality until a couple of years ago. I don't know enough about O'Malley to comment on his consistency.

[bigtree]

20. well, Bernie does have a few years on Martin

[Maedhros]

24. You keep flogging this dead horse, using a purely semantic argument.

Fine. The 1972 letter did not spell out the words "G-A-Y-M-A-R-R-I-A-G-E." So what - Bernie was still way ahead of the rest of the field.

The real issue is not gay marriage, but LGBTQ equality across the board. Marriage is one part of that, and there is more work to be done, such as employment and housing non-discrimination. Bernie is the best candidate to lead on these issues, because he has always been a leader on these issues:

http://www.bustle.com/articles/79951-bernie-sanders-views-on-gay-marriage-show-hes-been-a-supporter-for-a-long-time

Well before the issue became as political as it is now, Sanders has been unwavering in his support of same-sex marriage, congratulating President Obama when he spoke in support of gay marriage in 2012. In addition, Sanders has spoken out for other LGBT rights as well.

It’s time for the Supreme Court to catch up to the American people and legalize #gaymarriage. #SCOTUSmarriage pic.twitter.com/lbzPfDkRVD
— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) April 28, 2015

You can’t claim to support equality and not support equal rights. #SCOTUSmarriage pic.twitter.com/iBcZHzfxxk
— Bernie Sanders (@SenSanders) April 27, 2015

The Human Rights Campaign, which advocates for civil rights issues, gave Sanders its highest possible rating for his stance on marriage equality. He’s far to the left of Hillary Clinton on many issues, and while Clinton’s position on gay marriage has changed over time (when she ran in 2008, Clinton opposed gay marriage), Sanders has been a supporter for more than 15 years. It appears safe to say that having Bernie Sanders in the White House would be a positive for the gay community and their civil rights.

http://www.advocate.com/politics/election/2015/04/30/bernie-sanders-most-lgbt-friendly-candidate

But Sanders has also been a steadfast and reliable supporter of LGBT equality, supporting the Employment Non-Discrimination Act when it passed the Senate in 2013 and even calling on President Obama to evolve already and support marriage equality in 2011. He's a cosponsor of the federal LGBT-inclusive Student Non-Discrimination Act and has consistently voted against bills seeking to amend the Constitution to ban same-sex marriage, while cosponsoring a bill that would repeal the remaining portions of the so-called Defense of Marriage Act. Sanders has a perfect score of 100 percent on the Human Rights Campaign's latest Congressional Equality Index.

You seem to be somewhat alone in your doggedly persistent criticism of Bernie on LGBTQ issues.

[2banon]

25. oh my. this is seriously desperate.

if you were in your 20's I'd regard this missive as ridiculous on it's face, but forgivable, as a twenty something year old would have absolutely no real life frame of reference of the times we were in then and frankly until the later part of this decade. Same Sex Marriage wasn't even in the socio-cultural vernacular at the time, I would argue it wasn't even a serious concept. Most LGBT people I knew personally just wanted to be left alone. Stopped being harassed and discriminated against and treated as human beings without being ridiculed or violently attacked.

give it a break!

[orpupilofnature57]

28. + Well put !!!

[HFRN]

26. we're really 'outing' people who didnt advocate gay marriage in 1975?

not even opposing it, just not advocating it?

we're really doing that?

[orpupilofnature57]

33. A small, as opposed to large faction of supporters, searching for a needle in a haystack .

[Sheepshank]

36. just trying to keep the record straight..statements have been made

that Bernie has always been there.

[orpupilofnature57]

27. Ahead of the loop on the MIC I saw also, stop trying to make him out to be an opputunist, He never

worked for Hillary, Martin or should I say, Ralph .

[ret5hd]

31. Sorry, meant to reply to OP.

[Thinkingabout]

30. It is oblivious, there has been lots of evolving, civil unions was the thinking at one time, denying

and trying to give other excuses is not going to change.

[ret5hd]

32. Pedantic is as pedantic does

[hrmjustin]

34. Good point. This is not evidence he was for marriage equality back then.

He very well may have been and I am grateful he is good on LGBT issues but this is not proof.

[CanadaexPat]

35. The fact that he supported a half-step doesn't mean he didn't advocate a full step.

The post presents odd reasoning. I support a full withdrawal from the Middle East; does support a troop drawdown negate that?

[Sheepshank]

37. that may well be.....but you "assuming" his stand 40 years ago can't be promoted as fact either.

the only think we can claim as fact is what's in worting. And of course we all know Bernie evolved from some other writings regarding women.

Are we talking about troops on this thread?

[CanadaexPat]

38. I'm not making assertions about his position at that time.

But face it - trying to re characterize Sander's sweeping language is a losing proposition and comes across as a tad churlish. There are probably other areas where you can distinguish candidates more easily.

[riversedge]

41. When I first saw that letter a few days ago

it was attached to a post saying Bernie was for same sex marriage from the beginning--40 years ago.

I shook my head. I started to try to recall when same sex marriage really came on the scene. And the terms-same-sex marriage ?? was coined or when it become common usage.

I do remember 1973 as when the APA removed homosexuality from the mental illness list--I see Bernie used that term in his early 70's article.


So much to know and I know so little but your post put things into perspective. I am so glad Democrats 'evolved" and people have the freedom to love and marry who they want.
Thanks

[hootinholler]

42. The comedy value is too much, well done you! Huzzah!

Where shall I start? Oh the premise is a good location.

The meme being promoted by Sanders supporters is that he was for marriage equality 40 years ago.

No, if you were paying attention, the claim is that Bernie has always supported equal rights for all. The letter supports this with the first part of the paragraph you quote part of:

Granted, Sanders writes:

"Lets abolish all laws dealing with abortion, drugs, sexual behavior (adultery, homosexuality, etc.).

That's not the same as calling for same-sex marriage. We can certainly project that onto those remarks, but it's just not stated in there.

Seriously? Forty years ago, was same sex marriage on anyone's radar? I mean the Loving decision came down in '67 just 5 years before this was written. But on to the rest of the paragraph ( I skipped the Nixon is bad bit.):

The Liberty Union believe that there are entirely too many laws that regulate human behavior. Let us abolish all laws which attempt to impose a particular brand of morality or "right" on people. Let's abolish all laws dealing with abortion, drugs, sexual behavior (adultery, homosexuality, etc.).

What part of "abolish all laws which attempt to impose a particular brand of morality" would exclude the prohibition of gay marriage?

One of the wedges being promoted by some supporters here at DU is that O'Malley was once in favor of civil unions. An article presented as evidence of a 'wavering' O'Malley early in his public career makes what is supposed to be a damning indictment:

First, how is that a wedge? To use a wedge, one has to have a mass to be split from.

Second, Some supporters? Who's supporters? Please be explicit.

The problem with O’Malley is that he’s had more positions on marriage than all the 2016 hopefuls combined. And after pushing for civil unions right up until 2011, he now wants voters to believe that he’s a pioneer on the issue. What nerve! . . .

Whoa... so Martin O'Malley was supportive of civil unions before he fought successfully for a same-sex marriage law in Md.? That MUST make Bernie Sanders the undisputed champion of marriage equality in this campaign, right? Wrong.

Ah, so now we get to the real point of the post whish seems to be a vainglorious attempt to peel Bernie supporters off to O'Malley or a vainglorious effort of a Hillary supporter to peel some votes away from Bernie. I can't remember which camp you're in.

See, Vermont, Sanders' home-state also went through an 'evolution' of support for marriage equality. Vermont first passed legislation creating civil unions in the year 2000, signed into law by Gov. Howard Dean. Vermont didn't manage passage of same-sex marriage legislation until 2009, becoming the fifth state to afford legal recognition to same-sex marriages.

Where did Bernie Sanders stand on all of this? From his website:

"In Vermont, Sanders supported the state’s 2000 civil unions law and the 2009 law legalizing gay marriage. "

In 2000, he was in The House. Why wouldn't he support an effort in his state to allow civil unions? If the state would have gone for marriage equality, he would have certainly supported that as well, but you make it out to be like he was solely responsible for that movement.

Baazinga! Turns out, Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley's support for civil unions and then full same-sex marriage rights is practically identical. Both 'evolved' from supporting what was politically possible at the time in their states, civil unions, to support for full marriage equality.

Bazinga? Ok, Sheldon. Weak sauce at best, I'll see your Sheldon and raise you ಠ_ಠ

Bernie didn't evolve, well maybe he did pre-1972, but he has always been guided by his principles. The notion that he arrived where he is today by morphing his views, is laughable.

One difference, Martin O'Malley put his political career on the line for his beliefs and personally led the fight for the changes in the law he believed in. An opportunistic difference, perhaps - Sanders was in Congress and O'Malley was a governor - but the suggestion there's something wrong in Martin O'Malley's 'evolution' on the issue of same-sex marriage either applies to Bernie Sanders, as well, or it applies to neither candidate.

Props to my former Guv for getting that done. I don't think it was all that politically courageous in 2012, but YMMV. Marty is a machine politician from a a machine family. He leans left but has a bit of an authoritarian streak as evidenced by the culture of Baltimore police. Overall he was a good governor, and Baltimore faced some serious issues so I'm not really going to fault him there but in hindsight, I do wish he had paid more attention to the Baltimore PD culture.

[Bonobo]

44. Not like Hillary at all. She OPPOSED, actively OPPOSED gay marriage. Did Bernie? nt

[joshcryer]

45. Civil unions were always the bridge.

When Dean supported civil unions his supporters were called anti-gay marriage, but it was a pragmatic approach.

It's possible to support something good and it's possible to support something better.

Civil unions were good, gay marriage is better, see?

It's just that people use these arguments to score nasty points online. And hey I've been one of those people. It just sucks.

We should all remember Bush barely squeaked by in 2004 because they put gay marriage bans on over a dozen states constitutions. It was a GOTV effort.

Funnily, in 2016 marijuana should serve the same effect... but that's off topic.