2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHow the Clintons are using the Shock Doctrine on the issue of prison reform
Recently Bill Clinton came out with -well if not a mea culpa- then at least a mild admission that his policies put way too many people in prison. So much, in fact, that there wasn't enough money leftover in the budget for social programs...
But while it is definitely a wise call on the part of the Clintons and their advisers to "get ahead of the issue" before it bites them in the ass, they are really only telling a small part of the tragedy of the US's mass incarcerations, their role in it and the massive damage it has done disproportionately to the poor and minorities.
Over the last several decades the U.S. prison population has increased by over 400 percent. It began to escalate wildly with Ronald Reagan and his war of drugs, but continued its sharp rise under Clinton with his 1994 Crime Omnibus which included the three strikes and mandatory sentencing which have now been struck down by some courts as unconstitutional. And less you think that Hillary had no part in this, she was in fact a powerful lobbyist for the crimes bills both as a First Lady and then later as a NY Senator, saying:
We need more police, we need more and tougher prison sentences for repeat offenders. The three strikes and youre out for violent offenders has to be part of the plan. We need more prisons to keep violent offenders for as long as it takes to keep them off the streets.
WHY DO I SAY SHOCK DOCTRINE?
First, a reminder of what the Shock Doctrine is:
"The shock doctrine is a theory for explaining the way that force, stealth and crisis are used in implementing neoliberal economic policies such as privatization, deregulation and cuts to social services. "
The crisis facing mostly minorities today as a result of the unprecedented mass incarcerations and their ripple effects is now something that Hillary, as a candidate in 2016, is all fired up to tackle! Yes, you could say that it is yet another case of evolving, or you could say that it bears a strong resemblance to the other cases of Shock Doctrine we have seen that probably don't need mentioning. Still, there is something nauseating about seeing one of the architects of this misery now stand up as a champion of the very people that suffered the most, and use their own bloody bodies as bait to earn her votes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
The effects of such high incarceration rates are also shown in other ways. For example, a woman who has been recently released from prison is ineligible for welfare in most states. She is not eligible for subsidized housing, and for Section 8 she has to wait two years before she can apply. In addition to finding housing, she also has to find employment, but most likely she can not find a job because she has a criminal record so no one wants to hire her. Essentially, a woman who has been recently released from prison comes into a society that is not prepared structurally or emotionally to welcome her back.
Marc Mauer, assistant director of the non-profit group Sentencing Project, has remarked that "[...] what we don't see are the ripple effects of what they mean: For the generation of black children today, there's almost an inevitable aspect of going to prison". For every mother that is incarcerated in the United States there are about another ten people (children, grandparents, community, etc.) that are directly affected.
In The New Jim Crow in 2010, legal scholar and advocate Michelle Alexander contended that the U.S. incarceration system worked to bar black men from voting. She wrote "there are more African Americans under correctional control -- in prison or jail, on probation or parole -- than were enslaved in 1850, a decade before the Civil War began". Alexander's work has drawn increased attention through 2011 and into 2013.
What is the effect of mass incarceration on urban black families?
http://urbanportal.org/issues/entry/what_is_the_effect_of_mass_incarceration_on_urban_black_families/
More than seven times as many people are incarcerated in the United States as in Europe. The main victims of the prison boom are minority, particularly African American, men, who, as sociologist Bruce Western has found, are eight times more likely to have served time in prison than white men. The effects of mass incarceration extend beyond the prisoner and his immediate experience of confinement, and can have a significant impact on the prisoners family. A slew of recent studies by Western and others suggests that the wave of mass incarceration contributes to the decline of families and the social fabric that binds them, leading to the further disintegration of already-disadvantaged inner-city neighborhoods.
ms liberty
(8,580 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)The fact that incarcerations rose so dramatically for non violent crimes needs to addressed for sure but not as a Hillary blame game. That is completely disingenuous. Or maybe you k&r this for honesty sake to draw attention to the misleading hit piece?
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)in her address to NAACP
riversedge
(70,242 posts)http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hillary-clinton-remarks-prison-reform-speech
Read The Full Text Of Hillary Clinton's Prison Reform Speech
By Daniel Strauss
April 29, 2015, 1:27 PM EDT 1272 views
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton delivered a major policy speech on prison reform and the criminal justice system amid a week of rioting in Baltimore.
Read the full text of Clinton's speech below:
Thank you so much. I am absolutely delighted to be back here at Columbia.....................
Because surely this is a time when our collective efforts to devise approaches to the problems that still afflict us is more important than ever. Indeed, it is a time for wisdom.
For yet again, the family of a young black man is grieving a life cut short.
Yet again, the streets of an American city are marred by violence. By shattered glass and shouts of anger and shows of force.
Yet again a community is reeling, its fault lines laid bare and its bonds of trust and respect frayed.
Yet again, brave police officers have been attacked in the line of duty.
What weve seen in Baltimore should, indeed does, tear at our soul.
And, from Ferguson to Staten Island to Baltimore, the patterns have become unmistakable and undeniable...............
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)misrepresenting the facts. HRC said "violent offenders." It is very clear she's talking about "violent offenders". Here's a great article about the primary race. http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2015/07/bernie-hillaryand-joe.html?spref=tw
HRC will be fine. Right now it's hard to see that through all the noise.
Martin Eden
(12,870 posts)Add this to "free" trade and repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.
Clinton's neoliberal policies were followed by GW's neoconservative policies. History will decide which was more destructive.
6chars
(3,967 posts)She is marking out her own positions.
Martin Eden
(12,870 posts)I won't vote for Hillary Clinton in a Democratic primary because of her vote for the Iraq war and her cozy ties to big Wall Street donors.
But my post was intended to point out the legacy of president Bill Clinton's policies, some of which have lasting negative impact.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)She also campaigned on anti-crime legislation as a Senator.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)H.R. 695 (102nd): Guard and Reserve Family Protection Act of 1991
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jan 29, 1991
Referred to Committee: Jan 29, 1991
H.J.Res. 132 (102nd): To designate March 4, 1991, as Vermont Bicentennial Day.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Feb 19, 1991
Referred to Committee: Feb 19, 1991
H.R. 1353 (102nd): Entitled the Taconic Mountains Protection Act of 1991.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Mar 7, 1991
Referred to Committee: Mar 7, 1991
H.R. 2304 (102nd): To restore reductions in veterans benefits made by the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: May 9, 1991
Referred to Committee: May 9, 1991
H.R. 2373 (102nd): Escrow Deposit Act of 1991
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: May 16, 1991
Referred to Committee: May 16, 1991
H.R. 2439 (102nd): Cable Television Subscriber Protection Act of 1991
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: May 22, 1991
Referred to Committee: May 22, 1991
H.R. 2530 (102nd): National Health Care and Cost Containment Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jun 4, 1991
Referred to Committee: Jun 4, 1991
H.R. 4030 (102nd): Marsh-Billings National Historical Park Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Nov 26, 1991
Referred to Committee: Nov 26, 1991
H.Res. 359 (102nd): To express the sense of the House of Representatives regarding breast cancer.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Feb 7, 1992
Referred to Committee: Feb 7, 1992
H.R. 4206 (102nd): Cancer Registries Amendment Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Feb 7, 1992
Referred to Committee: Feb 7, 1992
H.R. 5131 (102nd): To amend the Solid Waste Disposal Act to regulate the manufacture, collection, and disposal of batteries.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: May 11, 1992
Referred to Committee: May 11, 1992
H.R. 5186 (102nd): To provide financing incentives to promote energy efficiency in residential buildings, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: May 14, 1992
Referred to Committee: May 14, 1992
H.R. 5207 (102nd): To provide that elections for President, Vice President, and members of the Congress be held on Saturday and Sunday.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: May 19, 1992
Referred to Committee: May 19, 1992
H.Res. 515 (102nd): Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives regarding the need for the President to seek the Senates advice and consent to ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jul 9, 1992
Referred to Committee: Jul 9, 1992
H.R. 6041 (102nd): Workplace Democracy Act of 1992
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Sep 25, 1992
Referred to Committee: Sep 25, 1992
H.Con.Res. 15 (103rd): Expressing the sense of the Congress regarding the need for the President to seek the Senates advice and consent to ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jan 6, 1993
Referred to Committee: Jan 6, 1993
H.R. 692 (103rd): Liveable Wage Act of 1993
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jan 27, 1993
Referred to Committee: Jan 27, 1993
H.R. 1299 (103rd): Resolution Trust Corporation Fair Funding Act of 1993
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Mar 10, 1993
Referred to Committee: Mar 10, 1993
H.R. 1791 (103rd): To restore reductions in veterans benefits made by the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Apr 21, 1993
Referred to Committee: Apr 21, 1993
H.R. 3323 (103rd): To provide that rates of pay for the President and Members of Congress shall be made equivalent to the rates of pay for their counterparts in the United Mexican States if legislation implementing the North American Free Trade Agreement
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Oct 20, 1993
Referred to Committee: Oct 20, 1993
H.R. 3370 (103rd): Milk Supply Management and Nutrition Assistance Act of 1993
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Oct 26, 1993
Referred to Committee: Oct 26, 1993
H.R. 3866 (103rd): To provide certain employee protection benefits for railroad employees.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Feb 11, 1994
Referred to Committee: Feb 11, 1994
H.R. 4024 (103rd): National Community Health Advisor Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Mar 11, 1994
Referred to Committee: Mar 11, 1994
H.R. 4618 (103rd): Bovine Growth Hormone Milk Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jun 21, 1994
Referred to Committee: Jun 21, 1994
H.R. 4669 (103rd): Bovine Growth Hormone Milk Labeling and Residue Test Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jun 28, 1994
Referred to Committee: Jun 28, 1994
H.R. 4710 (103rd): Fair International Standards in Trade (FIST) Act
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Jun 30, 1994
Referred to Committee: Jun 30, 1994
H.R. 5093 (103rd): To amend the Public Health Service Act to provide a 1-year extension of the applicability of certain provisions in the programs for block grants regarding mental health and substance abuse, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Sep 23, 1994
Referred to Committee: Sep 23, 1994
H.R. 5094 (103rd): To provide a 1-year extension of the applicability of the authority to transfer funds under the programs for block grants regarding mental health and substance abuse.
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Sep 23, 1994
Referred to Committee: Sep 23, 1994
H.R. 5126 (103rd): Workplace Democracy Act of 1992
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Sep 28, 1994
Referred to Committee: Sep 28, 1994
H.R. 5278 (103rd): Jobs and Investment Act of 1994
Sponsor: Sen. Bernard Bernie Sanders [I-VT]
Introduced: Oct 7, 1994
Referred to Committee: Oct 20, 1994
has been an uber member of the political elite for 25 years. She's been a first lady, a senator and a secretary of state. As to your question, she was not a passive first lady. She supported and is absolutely culpable for the positions of her husband. As to "making out her own positions," she has a long track record, and it is far more revealing than her campaign rhetoric.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
.in this case. Don't forget, she had all of 2008 when she ran the first time, to address this issue. And she didn't. She ran on the "Clinton record". And on her "experience" as an active, agentive and involved First Lady. She keeps trying to have it both ways.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)What I meant was that when she was silent during her candidacy, it amounted to consent. And when she wasn't silent, she was actively bringing up some past Bill Clinton policy as a personal credential.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)zentrum
(9,865 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)The op forgot to mention that part.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)He shouldn't have supported it. True.
But he didn't lobby for it aggressively like Hillary.
She helped push it through and they got 189 members of the house to vote for it, along with the Congressional Black Caucus.
The Clintons had, and have, a lot of influence.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)And people telling me in 2007 that Hillary's time as First Lady counted as political experience. Either it counts or it doesn't. She doesn't get to have it both ways.
arikara
(5,562 posts)You would never be able to convince me that she and Bill didn't discuss ideas and made decisions together. She's no shrinking violet, does anyone imagine she was content picking out silverware and putting on teas as first lady? They were a team for pete's sake, she is a political animal and I remember hearing that she figured she should have been president not Bill but the country wasn't ready to accept a woman at that time.
I think the country is ready for a woman, just please not Hillary. The world had enough Clintons... along with Bushes and their destructive policies.
frylock
(34,825 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)Its disingenuous to try to shoehorn something as complex and well as entrenched over many decades, as this issue on to a single political figure. I acknowledge your partisanship, but to hold a serious discussion on how to institute thebroad range of interconnected reforms needed to modernize our outdated judicial and prison systems will require a far more realistic view than the one you are trying to promote here.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Fairgo
(1,571 posts)An industry that extracts profit from liberty...creates employment in misery...and expands its market in poverty.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)misdeeds and misfortune, things are not going to turn out well for society as a whole.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Just like with gay marriage and TPP and the middle east war. Her fans just don't want to hear the truth.
Rec
frylock
(34,825 posts)brer cat
(24,576 posts)in prison populations, and particularly how it impacts black families. However ignoring the fact that Mrs. Clinton was referring to violent crime, stated twice in that brief quote, while including a graph showing a huge increase in prison population due to non-violent crime makes this more of a hit piece than anything worthy of consideration or discussion.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Dude, do you know what the Three Strikes law was about?
It wasn't restricted to violent crimes.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)But it's what you have been doing a lot of lately. HDS hit pieces in full effect on DU these last few days, and your contribution is exceptional.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)She said Violent crime...violent crimes, violent crimes. Non violent crimes went through the roof on your chart and must be addressed. but her earlier stand was on VIOLENT crimes.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The three-strikes law significantly increases the prison sentences of persons convicted of a felony who have been previously convicted of two or more violent crimes or serious felonies, and limits the ability of these offenders to receive a punishment other than a life sentence.
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)There is actually a bit more to the story here, as least as far as Hillary goes, but one actually has to go beyond wiki.
brer cat
(24,576 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It's not a hit piece.
Ot's the truth and I researched far beyond Wiki.
It is discussed all over.
Hillary isn't fooling anyone that actually reads or doesn't have their fingers stuck in their ears.
frylock
(34,825 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)when he announced that he wanted to hire 100,000 cops. Hire a bunch of cops and have their funding dependent upon how many arrests they make and you're going to see an explosion in the prison population. Then legislatures keep making more laws so that more people can be arrested so that people will talk about a crime wave and want to hire more cops. It's a cycle that will continue until everybody is jailed or a jailer.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)I think this problem of prison reform is one of the most serious issues the US faces:
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/hillary-clinton-remarks-prison-reform-speech
Read The Full Text Of Hillary Clinton's Prison Reform Speech
By Daniel Strauss
April 29, 2015, 1:27 PM EDT 1272 views
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton delivered a major policy speech on prison reform and the criminal justice system amid a week of rioting in Baltimore.
Read the full text of Clinton's speech below:
Thank you so much. I am absolutely delighted to be back here at Columbia.....................
Because surely this is a time when our collective efforts to devise approaches to the problems that still afflict us is more important than ever. Indeed, it is a time for wisdom.
For yet again, the family of a young black man is grieving a life cut short.
Yet again, the streets of an American city are marred by violence. By shattered glass and shouts of anger and shows of force.
Yet again a community is reeling, its fault lines laid bare and its bonds of trust and respect frayed.
Yet again, brave police officers have been attacked in the line of duty.
What weve seen in Baltimore should, indeed does, tear at our soul.
And, from Ferguson to Staten Island to Baltimore, the patterns have become unmistakable and undeniable...............
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)for a professional politician based upon campaign rhetoric rather than voting record is one of those customers P.T. Barnum described. I know, I've been one.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)TM99
(8,352 posts)You simply linked to a long list of crime bills.
I seriously doubt that you mean that his yay vote on Violence Against Women Reauthorization Act of 2013 is to blame for the current mess.
So please be more specific so we can discuss those.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Go ... TO ... THE ... LINK ... LOOK ... FOR ... "OMNIBUS CRIME BILL" (the fourth from the bottom) ... and for good measure, look at the second one from the bottom, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994. Both, have Bernie voting for the laws that created the maa=ss incarceration of the poor and PoC, that he now decries ... and his fans would hang upon First Lady (and non-legislator) Clinton's neck.
TM99
(8,352 posts)and snarky bullshit are what passes for Clinton supporter's communications these days apparently.
Read the whole crime bill. Aspects were good. Other were bad. I accept that he had a bit role in the over all matter.
You and your ilk have decided that Clinton has none even when she is on record supporting some of the most odious parts such as three strikes for drug related offenses. Hillary fucking LOVED the Reagan war on drugs.
But laugh it up funny man. Shit like this is going to sink the Clinton ship yet again.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)is completely appropriate, where 2 or 3 Bernie supporters attempting to hang responsibility for the mass incarceration of the poor and PoC, go to a link that lists Bernie's votes filtered for "crime" and listed in (reverse) chronological order, can't seem to find the part that says "Omnibus Crime Bill" and "Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994."
It is made even more appropriate, when Bernie supporters say stuff like:
In a discussion holding HRC (a non-member of Congress) to account for the actions of her President husband; but, the legislator that actually voted for the bill that is proximate caused the mass incarceration is termed, as "having a bit role in the over all matter" ... (noted: voting for something is having a bit role in the over all matter ... like ... perhaps, HRC's Iraq War vote?) ... Are you serious?
Let's see ... being on record supporting something, as the wife of the President vs. being on record VOTING for that thing, as a sitting legislator ... hmmm ... who " had) a bit role in the over all matter"? Me and my ilk understand just now ridiculous that is!
Apparently, so did Bernie ... see the Omnibus Crime Bill and Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 votes.
Okay.
ETA: Oh yeah ... Now go alert on that!
TM99
(8,352 posts)Do you have any legislation or public admissions to her mea culpa for supporting the war on drugs, the crimes bill, and mass incarceration?
I'll wait.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)If I understand your request ... HRC is not a legislator, so nope; there is no legislation.
But as far as public admissions ... I do recall HRC speaking to the horror of mass incarceration ... about 2 months before Bernie.
No perhaps, you'll be so kind as to list all the (hell, any of the) legislation Bernie has sponsored and, MORE importantly, gotten passed that reversed the war on drugs, the crime bills and the mass incarceration? ... There must be a bunch ... he's been in Congress the entire time.
TM99
(8,352 posts)So one public speech on the horrors. But nothing on how she and her husband contributed with the policies of the 1990's?
Voted YES on reinstating $1.15 billion funding for the COPS Program. (Mar 2007)
Voted YES on funding for alternative sentencing instead of more prisons. (Jun 2000)
Voted NO on more prosecution and sentencing for juvenile crime. (Jun 1999)
Voted YES on maintaining right of habeas corpus in Death Penalty Appeals. (Mar 1996)
Voted NO on making federal death penalty appeals harder. (Feb 1995)
Voted YES on replacing death penalty with life imprisonment. (Apr 1994)
Rated 78% by CURE, indicating pro-rehabilitation crime votes. (Dec 2000)
More funding and stricter sentencing for hate crimes. (Apr 2001)
Require DNA testing for all federal executions. (Mar 2001)
Increase funding for "COPS ON THE BEAT" program. (Jan 2007)
Reduce recidivism by giving offenders a Second Chance. (Mar 2007)
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/bernie_sanders.htm
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Please provide a link, a citation, a clue as to the votes that are represented here:
Voted YES on reinstating $1.15 billion funding for the COPS Program. (Mar 2007)
Voted YES on funding for alternative sentencing instead of more prisons. (Jun 2000)
Voted NO on more prosecution and sentencing for juvenile crime. (Jun 1999)
Voted YES on maintaining right of habeas corpus in Death Penalty Appeals. (Mar 1996)
Voted NO on making federal death penalty appeals harder. (Feb 1995)
Voted YES on replacing death penalty with life imprisonment. (Apr 1994)
Rated 78% by CURE, indicating pro-rehabilitation crime votes. (Dec 2000)
More funding and stricter sentencing for hate crimes. (Apr 2001)
Require DNA testing for all federal executions. (Mar 2001)
Increase funding for "COPS ON THE BEAT" program. (Jan 2007)
Reduce recidivism by giving offenders a Second Chance. (Mar 2007)
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/bernie_sanders.htm
No longer will a accept "facts" as facts until they are demonstrated as so. And without a reference, how is anyone to draw comparison between records?
Remember that is what started this whole thing "HRC is responsible for the mass incarceration of the poor and PoC!!!!!" ... and Bernie's vote for the stuff responsible for the mass incarceration of the poor and PoC (when discovered) became a bit role.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I have provided you some facts to go on. Now research it yourself AND then provide your own for all of your assertions about Clinton.
You are big on snark, defense of Clinton, and very shy on facts.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)without check it out. (That's how we got here) ... But I guess not.
riversedge
(70,242 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But, apparently, that is excusable as having "a bit role in the over all matter."
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)eom
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to, transparently, score anti-HRC political points.
An apt sub-title to the OP.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)And pointing out a candidate's weak record on an issue that impacts the poor and minorities to convince people not to vote for that candidate is so transparently . . . blah blah blah.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm not referring to you specifically but to the HRC camp in general.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)You had better self-delete before your team mates take you to the wood shed for loose lips.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You're more than welcome to search my posts for anything alertable, I think I've had either five or six hides total since DU3 and never had a time out so I'm not one of the more egregious offenders.
Bear in mind that the hyper incarceration of black men is a subject I've posted about on DU in the past, well before the current focus on the subject, here's one of my posts from 2012 and it's not the only one.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1364125
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and, BTW, I wasn't questioning your concern for the hyper-incarceration of Black men. I was just commenting on the use of that issue to score, transparently thin, political points, is the OP does ... and you seemed to recognize what I was commenting on, before you came to your senses.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The other candidate did not support that policy and spoke out against it.
Why you appear to favor the first candidate I have no idea, it seems a bit ironic given your handle.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Observing that this issue is relevant for its point scoring value.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Pointing out that both sides are doing the same thing is not an admission of anything except both sides are engaging in the same behavior.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)questionseverything
(9,656 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The woman on the other hand is a newcomer to "getting it" and arguably only because it is politically expedient for her to appear to "get it".
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #22)
historylovr This message was self-deleted by its author.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)NO ONE IS SAYING THAT BERNIE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK FOLKS. Nor, are we questioning Bernie's past or present social justice stances.
What I/we HAVE been/are saying is Bernie's clear concern/priority is economic justice, and taking on the oligarchy. Neither of those efforts address the matters that most directly affect my/our lives.
And his campaign's framing of the Black condition in economic terms, signals to me that his policy efforts to address the sorry treatment of PoC will be focused on economics, with little time or effort spent on other things.
I don't know how to make it more clear.
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #50)
historylovr This message was self-deleted by its author.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)He talks about police brutality and mass incarceration in every longer event speech I have seen.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)But you are correct ... he did mention it.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)because her husband, the President at the time, signed the Omnibus Crime Bill ... well, it seems HRC, well, actually, Bill got some help. Guess how Bernie voted on that, and the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994?
https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/20/crime#.VZconelRHIU
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)for a candidate that represents the status quo. But maybe the status quo is just alright with you.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)whose husband signed the law(s) proximate to the mass incarceration of poor and "minorities" ... we have another candidate that VOTED for the law(s) proximate to the mass incarceration of poor and "minorities" ... we have a third candidate that was in the politic farm system (i.e., the Baltimore City Council) and therefore unassociated with the law(s) proximate to the mass incarceration of poor and "minorities." (I'm not going to go into "broken windows" here)
Both candidates are denouncing the mass incarceration of poor and "minorities"; but, this OP (and those seeking to come to its ahistoric defense) only hold one candidate to account for their indirect association to the laws; while, neglecting to mention the other candidate's direct association.
Funny that, huh?
BTW, what candidate do you have me voting for? ...
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)All of the candidates running for the Democratic nomination for President have platforms that calls for changes to the current state (in this case the end to the mass incarceration of the poor and PoC); but, then again, all of the candidates advocate implementing these changes within the current political structure ... so arguably, each of the candidates are either, in opposition to the status quo (though perhaps to differing degree), or all of the candidates stand for the status quo.
Man from Pickens
(1,713 posts)all to further the Clintons' ambitions
Will you, or someone you love, be the next sacrifice so they can add another zero to their net worth?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And when I say affected, I sorta mean "lives ruined or brought to near ruin"
...And those affects would be for multiple generations.
Repeat. Multiple generations. Think about that, Hilllary.
Ligyron
(7,633 posts)and I'm cool with people attitudes and stances evolving, I know mine have.
As long as they evolve in the right (i.e., Left) direction, of course.
But, like many here, I'll vote for Bernie in the primary and support HRC in the general if it comes to it. One can only hope he drives her sincerely left and that she perhaps has evolved in the right, errr... I mean left direction after all.
CTBlueboy
(154 posts)Well this black guy sees thru the Clinton BS and will not have wool pull over his eyes
In addition to her support for Crimes Bill of 1994; I will never forget in 2008 she was attacking Obama for being against federal mandatory minimums and trying to label him as "soft on crime" The GOP used to do same thing with The Willie Horton ads shameful HRC tried to do the same.
I suggest every single person read Michelle Alexander "New Jim Crow"
If Her and Bill are really sincere , they would write or visit the families that were ruined because of their support for archaic legislation
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)Add to it our punitive culture and it makes for a really bad mix.
Doing time together
In Doing Time Together, sociologist Megan Comfort examined how wives and girlfriends are affected by the incarceration of their male partners. She uncovered that the womens experiences were characterized by costly travel to distant prison facilities, expensive collect calls, long waiting times during visitation hours, and disrespectful treatment by prison staff. Comfort argues that these experiences constitute a secondary imprisonment of the women who wait for and visit their incarcerated partners.
disrespectful treatment by prison staff.
And this sentiment regarding HRC is spot on.
Kick. This should be at the top of the Greatest.
appalachiablue
(41,144 posts)has done to individuals, families and communities in the last 20 years. End the neoliberal US PIC!
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)First, Hillary had nothing to do with a bill passed in 1994.
Then, you jump forward, to a quote from Hillary about repeat VIOLENT offenders.
Given the number of words in the OP, this quote from Hillary about repeat violent offenders was really the best one you could come up with?
It doesn't really sell your point.
But who cares. One quote about repeat violent offenders, clearly makes Hillary an ARCHITECT of the Prison Industrial Complex. Hell, she's responsible for the huge spike in minority incarceration, right?
Then, you have lots of stuff that has nothing to do with Hillary, positioned as if it does.
Whoever wrote this is a clown.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)For fucks sake, do some research!
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The Clintons were very successful in their lobbying.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It looks like we both think it was a horrible bill that the Clinton administration rammed through.
Sanders was responsible for his own vote, no doubt.
Was Hillary responsible for her lobbying? If so, I guess you can't really object to the OP.
You are saying that Bernie was stupid enough to follow a Clinton lobby machine? Do you realize on how many levels of stupid this isn't what happened when Bernie voted? At the very bottom of the stupid list is that Bernie cannot think for himself...is that what you are trying to say?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm pretty sure you can figure out what was written ... just read it slowly.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)We seem to agree that the Crime Omnibus that the Clintons pushed was a terrible thing that has destroyed millions of live needlessly.
A nice bookend, domestically, to her and Bill's destroying the loves of so many people of color overseas as well.
Can't blame THAT one on Bernie, even in part/
Oooops, facts.
500,000 dead Iraqi children under the age of 5 because of the Clinton's sanctions against Iraq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)yet your candidate actually voted for the damn thing.
Yet i can't see that anywhere in your op.
But of course you need to change the subject.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I invite you to start an OP claiming that as a congressman voting with 188 other Dems, that HE is the one who bears the burden of responsibility for it as opposed to the Clintons.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Why is that?
Is it because we brought up the uncomfortable fact that the law you are decrying here was supported by your candidate?
I am sorry this fact was brought up to you. Clearly it made you uncomfortable and you had to change the subject.
Cheers Bonobo.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)If the best you can do is say that Sanders shares some responsibility, I will agree that he shares approximately 1/500-600th of the responsibility of the Clintons.
But it is a very weak argument and makes it clear that you agree with the premise that she is now reaping the Shock Doctrine rewards of the hell she helped create.
If she had any class, she would comment that she had a big role in the what Bill just recently admitted he was wrong in.
Where are YOUR ethical beliefs, Justin? Do they just go away when you are asked to reflect on what YOUR candidate does?
Changing the subject? No, the subject for me is Hillary's 1) Lack of ethics and 2) Lack of taking responsibility for 1)
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)voted for it. You would have denounced his vote.
And he is more guilty because he was an elected official and voted for it. She may have pushed it but Sanders is more guilty because he could of stood on principle and stopped this.
No this was not about the issue but this was about bashing Hillary.
But you got called out with facts and your responses show you don't like that.
And for your info I actually got off my ass to protest Hillary, chuck Schumer, and my congressman vito Fossela when they voted for the war. I protested in several marches in DC and NY.
And i lost cousin in the war so I know what the horrors of the war was. I suffered them with the pain of losing Louis.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I can see why you keep wanting to say that it is about me, that I don't REALLY care...
But I can't imagine what or why you think that has anything to do with the election that is going to choose a POTUS...
I can't imagine how you think that -even if you could show that I don't REALLY care about the deaths and destruction of millions of people - that that actually matters wrt the choosing of someone ethically suitable to being the leader of the country.
My suggestion? Stop trying to defend Hillary by trying to impugn my motives.
How about that?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)And if you actually were concerned and pissed about this issue you would have been honest and mentioned the fact your candidate supported this.
But you didn't because you wanted this to be all about that evil Hillary.
I know you are upset i am using a fact against your op but facts are facts.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You are trying to make a point -some point - that I don't really care about the issue.
That is low and personal.
And wrong.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Op.
But you didn't and when it was pointed out to you, you act petulant.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Keep going.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)criticized him in my op. That would be honest.
But when challenged you are acting like I committed a crime for doing so and cha ge the subject.
That is a sign you lost the argument.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)HRMJustin "Your criticism of Hillary is not valid because: A). Bernie voted for it and B) Because you don't REALLY care."
I addressed Bernie's vote for it and stated outright he bears some responsibility.
Then you doubled down on personal attacks on me as if that has ANYTHING to do with Hillary's responsibility.
If you were honest, you might have said: "You know what? Hillary WAS wrong to push that bill. But Bernie was too."
Did you say that? I didn't see it. What I saw was an attack on my integrity and a double down by calling me petulant for not accepting a personal attack.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)When it was brought up, I acknowledged it.
When you brought it up, I acknowledged it and suggested you write an OP about it.
That doesn't justify your personal attacks or make them relevant.
You have shown what you're made of, Justin.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Basically it was attacking Hillary and not checking the facts before I do it.
And sir i took you on and did very well. Your responses are testimony to that.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)What YOU did was make it about me. You think that my not doing my homework absolves Hillary of her role?
If you are proud of that, you are doubling down on a rather disgusting personal trait.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)deserve criticism.
Now if you are truly concerned about this isxue you would start an op condemning Sanders vote on this issue.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)If you looked, you would see I have written about the growing prison industry before on DU, many years ago.
It is an issue I care very much about.
And you continue to have this bizarre belief that my PERSONAL CONVICTION about something is somehow a defense of Hillary's vote.
My suggestion is that you leave your personal attacks out of your responses, it makes YOU look emotional and stridently petulant yourself.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)bad Hillary is.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)was massively damaging.
That is enough homework.
The BEST you can say is that I should equally oppose Bernie for it.
THAT though is not a defense of the massive crime law that the Clintons gave us that had caused so much damage.
My homework has nothing to do with it.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I said write an op critisizing Sanders for voting for it.
And if you did your homework you would know Sanders voted for it.
You just said you have been posting about this for years so one would assume someone as knowledgeable as you would have known this.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You may have revealed that I -gasp - learned something on DU about Sanders making a bad vote.
But what you have dealt with most dishonestly and rudely is in trying to absolve Hillary of her very large role in the mass incarceration of Americans.
That, Justin, has literally nothing to do with me. A fact you continue to ignore.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I never absolved her.
I challemged you and did a damn good job of it and you could not take it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Curtain and curtain.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)When you mentioned Sander's vote (not the first person to do it in this thread btw) I acknowledged it. What else could you possibly expect?
I have read every word you have written here and I see, over and over, personal attacks.
But let's keep this going, Justin. I am happy to keep this kicked.
Hillary AND Bill are essentially doing what Halliburton did. They destroy and then they capitalize off that destruction.
Create more criminals, create more prisons, create more police, then rebuild that which you have helped destroy.
Waiting for your next personal attack.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)You are the one pissed at the Clintons for giving us this law.
You now know your candidate supported this law.
Since you were so pissed at the Clintons you should be pissed at Sanders.
Be fair and criticize fairly.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Let's see if you can answer without googling, smart guy.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Criticize Hillary. Your good at it.
Once and awhikd she deserves it too.
Your candidate voted for it and you want to minimize that.
I am not minimizing Hillary's role in this.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I will gladly educate you.
Joe Biden.
And I will not write an OP on him or the other several hundred people who were wrong enough to trust a newly elected Democratic president on this turd of a Crime Omnibus.
Yes, the lion's portion of blame falls on Bill and Hillary and nothing you can say will convince anyone that Sanders tiny vote carries the same level of responsibility as the duo of Bill and Hillary.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Forgive me if I don't take you at your word that your motives here are pure.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I understand that you cannot possibly accept the idea that yes, Hillary is responsible for her actions.
Whether you are apologizing for her AUMF vote by saying she (and you) are from NY, so she was representing her constituents (against IRAQ!? Why?)
or excusing her tacit approval of the deaths of 500,000 children in Iraq for her husband's sanctions... (Wait, I thought she was a strong person and part of a team?)
or excusing her lobbying for a crime bill personally that increased the federal prison population by 650,000 or so during their administration (as opposed to about 400,000 during Reagan's reign!)
Yes, you will forgive me if I question YOUR sincerity... there is no comparison to be made between Hillary's hawkishness and the amount of damage she has done...None at all.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)And i answered you already 8n her vote on the Iraq war.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Let's keep this kicked!
I am supporting my candidate by pointing out what a bad, bad choice Hillary would be.
She would be a vote for war, a vote for the prison system, and a vote for Wall street.
I will blast her anywhere, any way I can. I consider it a service to the Democratic Party to strengthen those that represent it best.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I challenged you and you didn't like it. It showed.
It has been fun but I think we are done.
Cheers.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You will see me again.
Cheers.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Do you homework, Justin, and batten down your hatches.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You will need it.
Expect me to NOT attack you in the personal way you have done to me, though.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)And you don't take criticism well.
You should reflect on thst.
Response to hrmjustin (Reply #149)
Post removed
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)loads of credibility. That's not personal.
And it's pretty amusing to see you contend Sanders votes actually do not matter!
I see lots of linking back to you saying that in the future.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)We hear that all the time when it comes to lambasting Clintons voting records. Now it doesn't matter because it's your precious? That seems a little off.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The "off" smell might be the bullshit being flung all over to distract from Hillary's outsized role in this.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Just trying to keep it honest. Now you appear to agree. Truly dizzying.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I NEVER said they were less important.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Maybe it's what you meant, regardless of what you wrote?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Does it mean that the "1" has a higher value than the other "1's" in the fraction?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Not sure how your personal rating system ranks as having value....especially when later on you admitted that all votes count and all votes are important.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Not everyone voted, I assume so I said
1/500.
Make sense?
Response to Bonobo (Reply #151)
Bonobo This message was self-deleted by its author.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)On Sat Jul 4, 2015, 07:18 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Keep making it personal. Shows your class or lack thereof. nt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=424173
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Calling another DU'we classless, out of line and over the top especially since up to this point this sub thread had stayed civil. Please vote to hide this uncalled for insult, thank you.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jul 4, 2015, 07:23 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's not personal.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I have seen DU members call others"assholes" and a jury let it slide. Because of that, this is a no brainer.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You simply have to shrug this stuff off. It's the internet, you can't be alerting on every little slight.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: hrmjustin, you have to stop alerting on every little thing
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)When you provide the link to Hillary lobbying for this bill ... please also include one with Bernie actually voting for this bill.
Thanks.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)If you have a case against the OP, why don't you put it forward?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)The OP has made a weak attempt to blame Hillary for a 1994 law ... a law that Bernie actually voter for.
Now ... if THAT makes Hillary responsible, Bernie is just as responsible, if not more so.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)Loans or grants. Incredibly punitive for those whose parents can't afford good legal representation. More tough on crime b.s.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and those that agree with that narrative, will just accept it ... and on most occasions, no one will look into the claim.
Here we have HRC being responsible for the mass Black incarceration created by the Omnibus Crime Bill that her husband signed ... because she may, or may not, have promoted it (I haven't found much on that point); but, you what I DID find?
I seems HRC ... well, Bill ... had a little help with creating the wave ... Guess who voted "YEA" on, both, the Onmibus Crime Bill of 1994 AND the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994?
That's right ... Bernie.
https://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/27110/bernie-sanders/20/crime#.VZconelRHIU
Oops!
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I won't go with the "So he was for the mass incarceration of Black folks, before he is against it" line that is begging to be put out there.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 3, 2015, 10:50 PM - Edit history (1)
This is what DU and this forum has become.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)JI7
(89,252 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)link please.
JI7
(89,252 posts)but it was about how great the mia farrow's support for sanders was . but before that he thought differently of her as shown in some of the replies in that thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251420631
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)some just grasp onto them. But those that do that tend to have very short attention spans and short term memory issues.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 4, 2015, 12:18 PM - Edit history (1)
Apparently completely forget they did that. And then used that same woman as an endorsement?
That says something pretty disturbing to me. Incredible.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)When they need something from that person!
Creepy shit.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... the simple fact that Bernie voted YES on this legislation.
And as you correctly note, very few of those jumping on the anti-Hillary band wagon have any clue on that point.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Lynnette Shaw was one of a handful of activists responsible for Prop 215, which gave Californians the right to possess medicinal cannabis.
Shaw opened the first medicinal dispensary in Fairfax, Calif. Over the years, the business was audited numerous times by the IRS, yet Bill and Janet continually went after her, finally succeeding in taking away her car, and they also zeroed out her Social Security funds. She is to my knowledge the only American who has ever had their Social Security funds zeroed out. I mean, there have been cartel folks that have been caught and they didn't get treated in that manner. Because of court decisions that have recently gone more favorably toward other medicinal cannabis activists, Lynnette now believes that she will have her Social Security funds restored.
But neither Clinton will ever get any approval or any vote from me.
I am pretty confidant that Hillary will not be the Primary winner - she couldn't win in 2008, and she won't pull that off next year either.
Bill got away with a great deal during his two terms, in large part because the internet was not as effective during those years in disseminating information. Most of us progressives are hugely disappointed in Obama, and we now know & understand that both Bill and Obama are all about the quid pro quo, that will keep both families very very wealthy, come what may, during their "retirement" years.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)I hope justice prevails for her.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(seriously, the facts got in the way) ...
You were attempting to use the mass incarceration thing to imply that HRC is racist, right?