Sanders: I’m not a liberal. Never have been

[oberliner]

“Everything I’m telling you may end up being wrong,” Bernie Sanders, the Vermont senator seeking the Democratic nomination for president, said early in our conversation on Thursday.

I had written an article concluding he had slim chances of winning the nomination, based on the limits of his ideological appeal. Mr. Sanders was building a coalition of liberals, as have past liberal anti-establishment Democrats, and it was likely to fall short.

But Mr. Sanders, who has surged in the polls against Hillary Clinton, called to advance a different theory of the race. “I look at these things more from a class perspective,” he said.

“I’m not a liberal. Never have been. I’m a progressive who mostly focuses on the working and middle class.”

The difference between a liberal and a progressive focused on workers might seem slim, but it nonetheless shapes how he envisions the potential of the political coalition he hopes to assemble. He believes he can mobilize a working-class coalition spanning ideological divides.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/upshot/class-or-ideology-my-conversation-with-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

[leveymg]

1. Sanders brings clarity to politics, including the difference between "liberal" and "progressive"

Honesty and clarity have appeal across the Parties, as do policies that primarily benefit the 90 percent. Perhaps, it's time for a political realignment in America along primarily class lines, as in most of the rest of the western countries. If such a thing could happen here, it would be the doom of the Republicans. The Democratic Party could survive, but it would have to throw off the control of the center-right machine politicians, of whom Hillary is the embodiment.

[Cheese Sandwich]

96. Bernie is right. The liberal establishment became the neo-liberal establishment.

Liberalism enables crony capitalism and imperialism

Even the liberal unions will throw their support behind Wall Street and corporate free-traders, after putting up a show of resistance.

We need a new way. And that would be progressive or democratic socialist.

Bernie is right, we need a political revolution and that is not a liberal idea.

[cascadiance]

185. And the corporate PTB have been trying to coopt "progressive" as well...

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/04/02/astroturf-warning-tpp-critics-call-out-fake-progressive-group-pushing-corporate

I think he should emphasize the term "populist" even more... That term is almost directly opposite of "corporate", and would be that much harder for them to try and coopt.

[Nite Owl]

106. Bernie goes beyond

being classed in any group. What he says is what any sane American wants from the most liberal to the most conservative. Yes, conservatives too because what the politicians classify as conservative is not real conservatism. They certainly don't care about the budget when they are in charge and a real conservative would for example.

[oberliner]

145. Except he specifically makes a point of labeling himself a progressive and not a liberal

That he took the time to clarify that distinction shows that those classifications do mean something to him.

[sabrina 1]

153. They only mean something because of what liberal/neo-liberal/DLC/Third Way has done to

the word. We have 'dems' running around calling themselves 'liberal' doing to the word what Republicans did, only with a different goal, people no one on the Left wants to identify with. I am very glad he clarified it.

I guess the status quo politicians haven't kept in touch with ordinary people, they don't seem to understand the things Bernie definitely gets BECAUSE he has always stayed in touch with ordinary people.

It's interesting that anyone might see have seen this as a negative thing which might cause the Left to be affected in a negative way by it. But it goes to show just how in touch Bernie is with the people that he knew people especially on the Left, would completely understand what he meant.

Rec for Bernie for once again hitting the nail on the head and for his deep understanding of the people, it is an incredible breath of fresh air to be able to support someone because they know he really does understand in a very deep way, why the people are angry, the others don't even realize just HOW angry they are.

[cantbeserious]

2. Limousine Liberals And Corporations Have Become The Bane Of The Democratic Party

eom

[haikugal]

17. Limousine Liberals?

Who are they? I have more reading to do but I consider myself a liberal and I don't (and never had) money to burn. WTF? I've never heard that term from another democrat....or are you libertarian?

[cantbeserious]

21. Do Your Research - The Term Represents Very Large Democratic Donors Without The Best Intentions

eom

[haikugal]

25. So it doesn't trickle down...to liberals? nt

[DFW]

47. Don't lose sleep over it

To some, if you are successful in life, you are no longer allowed to be liberal. There are many who disagree, fear not.

[mountain grammy]

61. Exactly!

What you said.

[haikugal]

85. Thanks mountain Grammy...

I'm in agreement!

[haikugal]

84. I'm just not in gear for this...

Insulting crap!

I agree...I have more than many, but this whole redefining language is insane and having money shouldn't do more to define you than your beliefs and actions in my view. I just really hate that term.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. It's a Republican trope...

BTW, I am a Liberal and can't even afford a f--ing car.

[haikugal]

99. Neither can we...we're lucky though because we have several

From the 80's that run well, but we need something more fuel efficient. Also, I alone would never be able to afford to insure, repair and fuel a car...I'm living at poverty level because I'm disabled.

Feel the love, I know....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. "Limousine Liberal" is a Republican trope

In the 1970s, the term was applied to wealthy liberal supporters of open-housing and forced school busing who didn't make use of public schooling.[6] In Boston, Massachusetts, supporters of busing, such as Senator Ted Kennedy, sent their children to private schools or lived in affluent suburbs. To some South Boston residents, Kennedy's support of a plan that "integrated" their children with blacks and his apparent unwillingness to do the same with his own children, was hypocrisy.[7]

By the late 1990s and early 21st century, the term has also come to be applied to those who support environmentalist or "green" goals, such as mass transit, yet drive large SUVs or literally have a limousine and driver. The Weekly Standard applied the term to Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX 18) for being "routinely chauffeured the one short block to work--in a government car, by a member of her staff, at the taxpayers' expense."[8] The term was also used disparagingly in a 2004 episode of Law & Order by Fred Thompson's character, Arthur Branch, to criticize the politics and beliefs of his more liberal colleague, Serena Southerlyn. South Park's creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone poked fun at the tendency of some liberals to be more concerned with image than actually helping the earth in the episode "Smug Alert!"

The New York Observer applied the term to 2008 Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards for paying $400 for a haircut and, according to the newspaper, "lectures about poverty while living in gated opulence".[9]

In 2009, the term was applied by many commentators to former Senate Majority Leader and then-Obama cabinet appointee Tom Daschle for failing to pay back taxes and interest on the use of a limousine service.[10][11]

The term has often been applied to documentary filmmaker Michael Moore over the years by both critics on the left and right due to his habit of traveling around New York City in a limousine.[12][13

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousine_liberal

Maybe someone's is showing a bit too much leg

[randys1]

183. Thank you, we hear this shit around here often - good, if we can recognize it here, we can

recognize it out there and warn others

[DonCoquixote]

125. I offer a reference point

Debbie Wasserman Schultz aka , she who kneecaps every liberal candidate.

[hrmjustin]

103. How rush Limbaugh of you! Limousine Liberals is a republican meme and it is rather telling you

used it.


Your slip is showing!

[kenfrequed]

164. It is an ancient bit of spin and out of the modern argot

I doubt most modern conservatives would even recognize it these days much less use it.

[hrmjustin]

166. They all know what it means.

Telling tgatvthis poster used this line.

[kenfrequed]

167. Most Republicans wouldn't use it these days

All of them ride in limos and worship the wealthy so no republican would bother with it. I don't think this phrase is going to stick around.

[hrmjustin]

169. I hear it used. The point is it is a gop meme and it was telling this poster used it.

[kenfrequed]

171. Well...

I don't know where you live or who you talk to so I guess we have a case of dueling anecdotes.

[hrmjustin]

173. I live in NYC.

And it is a ggop meme plain and simple.

[kenfrequed]

177. And...

Ok...

you winz an Internetz.


I'm done.

[hrmjustin]

178. Bye.

[gordianot]

3. I have never heard this distinction before however...

It makes sense to advocate policy for those who vote irregardless their financial status. I tend to look at the term Progressive as a cop out for people who have bought into right wing bullshit about being liberal and are no longer comfortable about being called liberal. I am definitely leaning Sanders but consider this slightly lame attempt at apologetics and do not cringe at someone being a Social Democrat.

[PoliticAverse]

4. "...liberal?" "I prefer Progressive"...

From: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jul/24/uselections2008.usa

Rob Porter, of California, asked Ms Clinton if she could define liberal and would she describe herself as a liberal. She said liberal had been turned on its head in the last 40 years and had become identified with big government rather than freedom of the individual. "I prefer progressive," she said.

[Wilms]

5. The DLC co-opted the term.

Part of what the DLC morphed into is the "Progressive Policy Institute", or some such.

Same Third Wayward types are involved.

[progressoid]

9. Yup. n/t

[yurbud]

181. If Socialist turns out to be popular, they'll take that too. Sort of like the Federalist Society

They were going to be called the ANTI-Federalist Society, but they thought that name was too negative.

Or the National Socialist Party of Hitler. They were Nationalist, but just about the furthest thing from Socialist possible.

[Fast Walker 52]

18. same here!

totally agree

[virtualobserver]

48. His hero is Eugene Debs, a socialist who ran for Prez during the "Progressive Era" (1890 - 1920)

He is not playing games with language. Liberals who were afraid
of being called the L word borrowed the term more recently.

He has always considered himself a Progressive.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

6. Fine with me.

I don't think the labels really matter, just the actual results.

Still, class covers a hell of a lot more than simply the ideology of the left. It might make the primary a bit tougher, but it makes the general all that much easier when he has appeal across the spectrum.

[SoapBox]

10. ^This!^

[DanTex]

7. In other words, he's prioritizing economic issues over social issues.

Which is fine, but he and his supporters shouldn't be surprised when people who value social issues are disappointed.

[zentrum]

16. How is focusing on working people

….and the middle class in any way not a social issue? You mean you're afraid of the word "class"?

Economic policy is how you enact and carry out social progress.

It's easy to "rhetoric on" about social issues but it has no power until you take it right to the moneyed powers—who do not want to pay their fair share of taxes, want to cut Social Security, medicare, medicaid, want to ship jobs, want a lower minimum wage—these are all social issues!

The economic power elite loves it when we separate social issues from class and economic issues. That kind of obfuscation serves them.

[Fast Walker 52]

19. yes, they are inextricably intertwined

[boston bean]

27. Racism/Sexism/Homophobia etc is not solved with a fat wallet.

That seems to be a point many miss.

I've also read how Bernie feels we have overcome racism because a black president was elected.

He is way out of the norm of liberal thought on this.

He wants ignorant white republicans to vote for him. They'll vote for him cause they may feel empathetic with the class issue, but it aint gonna make then any less sexist/homophobic or racist. And he has told you, that it is not a main focus of his.

So, in a nut shell, I would much prefer a candidate who at least has inkling of what it's like to live in this country with those issues that effect every waking moment of their life.

And not just concerning themselves with the $$ signs.

[safeinOhio]

33. I might agree with you if

you could point out anything in his voting record where did not support minorities or LBGT. I kind of feel that voting for giving big banks more breaks and voting for wars do not help the groups mentioned.

[L0oniX]

41. Silly! War = jobs.

voting for wars do not help the groups mentioned

[arcane1]

80. It's the go-to smear when there's nothing else. And it has zero facts to back it up n/t

[DanTex]

128. His voting record on social issues is impeccable (except guns, but that's another conversation).

But there's more to it than that. It's a matter of priorities. And priorities are important, you can't do everything at the same time. If Obama didn't make healthcare a priority, we wouldn't have ACA.

Bernie has made it clear that his priorities are economic issues, not social issues. That doesn't mean that he's racist or anti-LGBT or anything else. On the contrary, he's been on the right side of these issues forever, even before it was "cool". But that doesn't change the fact that his priorities and his focus, at this time, is on economic issues, for better or worse. Which means that, for people who think social issues should have higher priority, this is a legitimate concern.

[TM99]

152. And thus far the ones who push social issues over

economic ones on DU are those, predominantly neo-liberal Third Way types, who have a sound economic position themselves and are free to focus solely on social issues without fear of evictions, loss of jobs, underemployment, etc.

They go hand in hand for almost all of us. It has become two separate tings for the neo-liberals.

[zentrum]

136. Exactly so n/t

[Scootaloo]

35. And no one without a Hillary avatar has ever made the claim that they are

[boston bean]

39. Uh, yeah they do in supporting Bernie by stating that

he does care about it because he cares about economics and class.

Certainly class issues are a huge issue.

But so aren't social issues. So, to make a case that he cares about them, without addressing the social injustice (as Bernie himself is telling you that is how he feels), means they care more about the economics about it rather than the social.

Golly gee willickers, maybe people ought to read exactly what is being stated by Sanders himself. And maybe acknowledge that others have a point.

But nope... It's a defense of the economic portion only. Which, if I do say so for myself, is lacking being a member of an oppressed class, and does make one conclude that others feel it's not important.

Bernie is not addressing this in his campaign. He has told you in his own words it is not a focus of his. That he sees it on economic terms.

So, if you got a problem with someone pointing that out, get Bernie to change his position and stop defending him regarding it.

[safeinOhio]

53. Lets just go with his voting record.

Voted NO on Constitutionally defining marriage as one-man-one-woman.
Voted NO on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage.
Voted NO on banning gay adoptions in DC
Voted NO on ending preferential treatment by race in college admissions
Constitutional Amendment for equal rights by gender.

Sanders co-sponsored a Constitutional Amendment:
Rated 93% by the ACLU, indicating a pro-civil rights voting record.

Rated 97% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance.

Recognize Juneteenth as historical end of slavery.

Sanders co-sponsored recognizing Juneteenth as historical end of slavery

Re-introduce the Equal Rights Amendment.

Sanders co-sponsored re-introducing the Equal Rights Amendment

[boston bean]

56. Let's go with what he has said. Those votes don't mean

he doesn't see economic/class issues as more important and as a way to solve those social injustice issues.

I've read what he said, have you?

[safeinOhio]

76. At least he was never a

Goldwater Girl.

[boston bean]

82. LOL, that's always a good retort when you got nothing else. nt

[safeinOhio]

101. Thank you, that is

about all I have.

Don't worry, I'll vote for Hillary if she wins the nom.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

138. Bernie has called issues of black social justice collectively

"a huge issue." He has explained in detail what he will do to address this as president. He is the most credible politician I have ever studied when it comes to follow through.

[kenfrequed]

176. Oh my gods

Is there any reason in the world to think he would suddenly change a lifetime of supporting positive, progressive social causes that he has championed and stood up for?

Seriously man, this is why supporters of Bernie Sanders get so upset with you folk. Right here. The implication that the Senator would suddenly just ditch all of his previous beliefs because he happens to think that we have been ignoring important economic issues for decades.

Your line of argumentation is one of the reasons so many Sanders supporters are offended.

[Scootaloo]

70. I have your editorialized interpretation, but no direct quotes.

What I see from the Hillary camp on DU, is the belief - the 100% certainty... that people of color and LGBT people do not care about the following: housing, schools, infrastructure, jobs, trade, the environment, foreign affairs, poverty, sustainability, "the war on drugs,' the death penalty, corporate influence in politics, or healthcare.

According to Camp Windsock, people of color only care about "race issues" and LGBT people only care about "gay issues."

Which is pretty convenient, seeing as how she's completely miserable on all those issues these groups - according to you - do not care about. Why, it's almost as if Camp Windsock were creating this false assumption so they could avoid having to address these issues!

Unfortunately she held onto her god-sez-so opposition to LGBT equality until polls showed her she was completely out of the mainstream. and she still hasn't apologized for that nasty dog-whistle campaign against Barack Obama. So her "strong points" are still pretty wobbly.

So that being the case - you can't actually make any points in favor of Clinton's positions on people of color or the LGBT community because there really aren't any - You instead have to do the reverse, and claim that anyone who dares talk about those other issues that your have decided minorities don't care about, doesn't care about minorities.

[kath]

75. "Camp Windsock" - Ohmigod. Love it!

Did you come up with that term? It's genius!

[Scootaloo]

77. I don't know if I did or not

I might have picked it up somewhere? I'unno

[hootinholler]

158. Camp Windsock

LOL

[heaven05]

81. Bernie is a socialist

race is way down on their priority list. Always has been. Just don't let your blood pressure rise, there are, outside all this bernie, hrc noise other quieter yet effective and potentially surprising democratic party candidates. It's still early yet and all this poll noise is just that, BS NOISE. Let them blather on. It's what they do best. Hold your cards close to your chest. We'll have one that will be able to quiet the noise and effectively represent ALL people on ALL issues. Still early yet.....

[AOR]

117. You say "Bernie is a socialist race is way down on their priority list"...

some parts of Bernie's platform are things that would be part of any Socialist or Leftist platform. However Bernie is not a Socialist or a Leftist in that Bernie thinks Capitalism can be reformed. Words matter and definitions matter. True Leftists of all stripes do not believe capitalist relations (political, economic, social) in any form are the way forward nor do they believe capitalist relations are the "end of history."

As far as race being far down the list of Leftist priorities...the statement is so utterly absurd that it doesn't even really deserve much of a response. There are volumes of quality material - on the interconnectedness of Social and Economic justice on the net - written by Black leftists and other leftists of color in magnitudes that make such a statement beyond laughable.

[heaven05]

133. laughable?

the left hasn't done a damn thing about ending racism. Go stand in the mirror and laugh at yourself. The left does not want to end racism because certain sub groups of the left would not want to offer access the privileged of this society has to the perks of this system, to everyone. It really is pretty simple to see, after being in this word game for the last 50 years. Your comments are ludicrous to say the least. Damn reforming capitalism when the reforms won't help everyone and that's been proven. Also I don't need nor did I ask you for a response on the race issue. Race relations and justice has always been far down the list of priorities of the sub group that is usually in charge of these socialist, progressive and liberal platforms. A lot of verbal affirmation but when it comes down to it, 50 years after I started this political game, racism and social injustice is still eating away at the fabric of our society. Don't use black leftist to prove your point, they are assassinated or marginalized. Tell me I'm wrong and it will just tell me.....well I'll end it here. No response necessary, it would be meaningless to me anyway.

[AOR]

147. Again, institutionalized racism...

arose along with Capitalism and the modern slave trade. Dividing the people based on race is a by-product of capitalist social relations. Prior to the introduction of capitalist social relations and the capitalist modes of commodity production ... racism as an institutionalized form of oppression didn't exist. Once understanding that objective material reality there is no possible conclusion that can be drawn that separates social justice from economic justice.

I'll leave it there for now. I don't know enough about your postings to draw any further conclusions on where you stand. My intent was not to offend you but critique your post that the two can be separated. They can't and anyone who says they can is suffering from severe cognitive dissonance and reactionary thinking. There will never be any wealth blind social justice for poor people of color - who suffer the exploitation and indignities of capitalist exploitation and financial oppression on a daily basis - until there is economic justice for all.

And of course Black leftists are marginalized. All actual leftists are marginalized and red-baited on a daily basis regardless of color. If you are truly interested in the actual political views of Black leftists you can go over to Black Agenda Report and some others and read those writers. It will become crystal clear for you... that the meme of social justice without economic justice is a tool of the capitalist ruling class to keep poor people of color in line while Black capitalists and the Black misleadership class sell out those beneath there social station and side with the power structure of Capital over Labor.

[heaven05]

175. that's saying something

Last edited Mon Jul 13, 2015, 09:43 PM - Edit history (3)

thank you. The issue of racial justice is very important to me. And I hope my posting(s)s makes that clear. Your analysis is correct from a socialist/pure Marxist perspective. I do respect that point of view because it does explain wealth+power=oppression. I got deeply immersed in college in the 70's. I do know that short of revolution, nothing will be done in the near term about this economic system of oppressing poor people of all races. It's just sad that one sub group is so easily fooled by the PTB, media and political, into believing they have a chance to partake of what their PTB, political, economic and media, revel in and gorge on.

I've understood the "objective material reality" of this exploitative system every since Dr. Angela Davis, Cointelpro murders/ assassinations, Stokely Carmicheal, John Lewis, MLK, Malcolm X.......and I will continue to disagree with your conclusion that racism in america cannot be separated from the economically wealthy class and it's continuing oppression, economically, of the poor, POC especially. I'm trying to measure my response because I do understand and, to a point, respect your intellectual understanding and stance of economic oppression of the american poor. However, that it is tied to racial oppression is understood by me, yet rejected as a cause of institutionalized and systemic racism precisely because skin color does not change with economic success. Black capitalists/misleadership class notwithstanding. That type of self aggrandizing individual has been with the american black since the house slave would tell the massa, a slave break was coming. No problem with all that. They are still exploited and oppressed because of their skin color. A lot of them just deny and rationalize so they can enjoy their "success" to the ultimate detriment of all POC. Understood. Yet a large portion of us know a good job and a decent standard of living will not stop racist behavior by the white sub group. The S.C Nine/Mother Emanuel assassination(s) and murders prove that. They were not wealthy African-americans, yet middle class and their skin color got them killed. Nothing in their wallets or purses did.

It is true the wealthy do not give a damn about the poor, regardless of race. They use one sub group, poor whites, against other sub groups of POC. Poor whites are led to believe, by the wealthy class that they can be just like them. Movies push that RW meme, advertising pushes that RW meme, the racist reality shows gives that impression and pushes that meme......understood that the poor white is a wealthy class tool to divide the races.

Capitalists using race as a divisive tool is known. Capitalism in america, cotton production precisely, generated a need for cheap labor, since native americans did not work out and serf type poor white labor could not be controlled as a working class, racism made the capitalist turn his jaundiced eye toward Africa. With the south having very hot weather, someone in their post coital bliss came up with the solution to their problem. I can hear them now...."N******!!!! That is who can produce in this weather and be controlled in that production with enforced bondage, they are not like us"=racism. Maybe not exactly like that, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Now which came first? I ask you. Black Africans(ALL) regardless of nation or tribal grouping, just like the First American, were looked upon as a sub par human being based only on skin color=racism. Black African families were not given the benefit of being able to love and cherish each other, a Caucasian understood family values deduction=racism.

The slavery system was known to exist because of the Arabs, Portuguese, Dutch, British, et al were already engaging in slavery for their empire building and Caribbean island production of resources. That was based on skin color=racism. Economics generated the need for cheap black labor based on the skin color and is not the cause of white racist behavior. The cause in my book had to do in large part to the racism generated by the Judeo-Christian religion(s) and their understanding of blacks in the human pecking order. I won't go on. I don't need another degree.

Black Agenda Report, Roots, Politics USA, Liberals Unite, Firebrand Progressives\Uabashedly Liberal, William Rivers Pitt, Blacknificent Tribune and many more including the important contributions by many unsung heroes of the liberal/progressive movement, all races and political leanings right here on DU who contribute daily to the understanding of economic injustice vs socal/racial injustice and just who those injustices impact, are learning resources for me.

I appreciate your time in answering my response. You are truly learned and aware. I respect you. No harm, no foul or offense taken or meant, just passionate about the continuing injustice, economically, racially and socially created by the economically wealthy classes and their "tools" and accepted in varying degrees by liberal and progressives of all stripes and races, which if the end of racism is to become a reality, must be addressed continually. The battle continues.

[AOR]

206. Nice post heavens...

we all learn from critical analysis of what is real and what isn't. I agree with much of what you've written here. There might be a few points of contention with more consideration (not an intellectual here so I like to absorb what I'm reading before critiquing anything and commenting further) Thanks for the effort and explanation in your post. Let's talk again on this.

[kenfrequed]

182. "The Left" hasn't had any realy power in like 40 years

The left wing of the party hasn't really had any power since the late 70's at best. Even within the party the "Left" has been mostly left out of the positions of leadership. So your argument is mostly fictitious to start with.

[heaven05]

196. not really

but you're entitled to your view. I'll give you that. Fictions? Please, don't get me started on fictions and this upcoming election season and the candidates in the horse race.

[Number23]

150. "We'll have one that will be able to quiet the noise and effectively represent ALL people on ALL

issues."

Who is it????!! Lay it on me!!!

[heaven05]

159. I guess I should have said

maybe......we'll have one. Sorry to get your hopes up....no injury intended.

[Number23]

208. Damnation!

I was all set to get my checkbook out and start donatin'!

[randys1]

188. I got your candidate right here

?w=569


or





or more likely, given our corrupt system

[senz]

121. boston bean, Bernie began fighting for civil rights back in the 1960s.

Quoting Wikipedia,

Bernie Sanders "was active in the Civil Rights Movement, and a student organizer for the Congress of Racial Equality and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

One of the actions he took was the coordination of sit-in protests against segregated campus housing.

Sanders also participated in the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom."

Caring for the poor and downtrodden is in his blood. So don't you be saying he doesn't care about social justice, okay?

[heaven05]

137. SOS

social justice and racial equality and equal justice are separate issues. How many times must this be pointed out before the but, but, but "bernie marched in 63" with the downtrodden and poor and, and,and he fought to desegregate campus housing and, and, and.,........enough! I want racism to go away....I know good luck... yet that has to be a top policy priority of the socialist democrat also. Yes his heart is in the right place, I think...yet what has he done lately? Black issues have NEVER been important to any one in the sub group that controls this political system, both parties, and it's about time they took notice, RACISM and racial inequality is important TO A HUGE SWATH OF PEOPLE living in this country today. No job will make that problem affecting millions go away. There needs to be NEW legal remedies to start addressing the -NEW JIM CROW LAWS-. Redundancy will, I hope, help this fact sink in sooner or later. But I am not going to hold my breath, waiting for that to happen.

[senz]

154. I think its time is finally coming, heaven05. I don't know what Bernie has done "lately" on that

issue, but I'd bet my next paycheck that if someone formulates a new law to address the abuses, Bernie would vote in favor of it. Of course, with the House & Senate in Republican hands, passage is another matter -- so we must vote the racists out. I have a feeling that it's going to get increasingly harder for them to express their hatreds and phobias.

[heaven05]

157. and I truly hope

Last edited Mon Jul 13, 2015, 12:05 PM - Edit history (1)

they continue to express their hatreds and phobias. Maybe, just maybe they WILL turn off enough people that they lose House and Senate in the upcoming GE and we get true liberals, progressives with true grit to push forward a really new vision of transforming this nation and it's political, social and racial structure into what true democracy means. That means to me, an equal chance for ALL hardworking, decent AMERICANS to enjoy the perks of this system that only some enjoy now. It's just a distant hope, one I've had for 50+ years by the way. With the rampant corruption of huge $$$ in this political process.........

[senz]

179. Well, if it's any consolation, your "distant hope" of 50+ years is the same hope

our founders had when they created this democratic republic for We the People. So you're in good company, and your position is consummately American. They probably surmised that we would have to struggle forever to hang onto it, for human nature is not entirely noble -- and never will be. We're probably in the same age group, and I'm only recently coming to terms with this fact.

[AgingAmerican]

55. He never said they were

Nobody has said they were. You guys made this whole 'issue' up.

[boston bean]

57. Read the OP.

Bernie says it himself.

[AgingAmerican]

62. Your interpretation of what he said is crap

A string of strawmen

[boston bean]

64. Ah, nope... I created no strawman. nt

[Enthusiast]

66. Where did you read Bernie feels we have overcome racism because a black president was elected?

I have heard Bernie say several times that we have not overcome racism.

[boston bean]

72. Here you go:

Well, here's what you got. What you got is an African-American president, and the African-American community is very, very proud that this country has overcome racism and voted for him for president. And that's kind of natural. You've got a situation where the Republican Party has been strongly anti-immigration, and you've got a Hispanic community which is looking to the Democrats for help.

But that's not important. You should not be basing your politics based on your color. What you should be basing your politics on is, how is your family doing? ... In the last election, in state after state, you had an abysmally low vote for the Democrats among white, working-class people. And I think the reason for that is that the Democrats have not made it clear that they are prepared to stand with the working-class people of this country, take on the big money interests. I think the key issue that we have to focus on, and I know people are uncomfortable about talking about it, is the role of the billionaire class in American society.

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2014/11/19/365024592/sen-bernie-sanders-on-how-democrats-lost-white-voters

Is the picture becoming more clear now?

[Enthusiast]

87. The country overcame racism to elect Obama. That is a fact.

That doesn't mean the country overcame racism altogether. He only meant the nation overcame their racist inclinations for that sole purpose to elect Obama.

I know exactly what Bernie was saying. He knows full well the nation has not overcome racism because the President is black.

I think you are twisting Bernie's intention for convenience sake.

[boston bean]

95. No that is not what he said, you are moving around sentence parts

to suit your needs.

[Enthusiast]

102. We both know what Bernie meant. I have repeated his actual meaning.

Or do you think Bernie believes racism is over in this country? If that is what you believe I must kindly say your perception is pretty skewed.

[boston bean]

105. I don't need to twist myself into knots in trying to read the simple statement.

He said it. His other words in this campaign re-enforce his position.

I believe that he thinks economics will solve social injustice. I don't believe that for a split second.

[TiberiusB]

146. Nah, you're just willfully misinterpreting what he said.

Here, I'll post...again... his words on the senate floor:

http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000003761034/bernie-sanders-on-racist-history-of-the-us.html


Just keep banging that drum, though. It works for the GOP, it might work for you.

[AOR]

110. We fight against Racism/Sexism/Homophobia...

and never give up those fights. That is part of every leftist platform. However, your post is one that creates divisions. If we advance on issues of Racism/Sexism/Homophobia without fighting for economic justice and bringing very real class distinctions and class struggle to the table we still lose the battle. Without fighting for both we still have millions of poor and economically oppressed and exploited people of color, women, LGBT, ect... Social Justice without Economic Justice is not a plan and can never bring any real end to oppression and exploitation of the working class.

Racism, white privilege, sexism, and discrimination most surely exist and need to be fought at every turn, but to focus simply on that without a thorough understanding of class and class struggle are an apology for oppression and injustice in many other forms.

[boston bean]

111. It is not I who focuses on one more than the other.

I happen to agree with Bernie on his positions of economic populism.

Although, I don't think he has a chance in hell of winning a general election.

But it is Bernie who clearly focuses on one, in this campaign, and does not really want to talk about the other.

My feeling is he does not want to discuss those issues, because he feels he can build better support by not discussing such dividing issues.

You cannot deny he is running his campaign in this fashion.

He has told you so, again.. read the OP. Then go and read the transcript of recent NPR interview.

I think that is pretty craven politics, and not one that I am interested in. As my goals are better represented by another candidate in this primary election. One who is not afraid to talk about social injustice in social justice terms. And one who speaks and recognizes the class divide as well.

[AOR]

120. I'm not really talking about Hillary vs Bernie...

there is very real suffering of working class people on the ground - of all stripes - that face hardship of the economic variety and injustices that can never be solved by simply voting in elections. This is not to tell anyone here or elsewhere not to vote or not back a candidate but, it will take much more than that to bring about economic and social justice for all. No real gains are ever made without a movement of the people on the ground and on the streets. The civil rights movement, the feminist movement, the leftist and worker movements behind the New Deal ect... --any of those gains were made because real people put themselves on the line for those causes to force the politicians to act.

[boston bean]

126. And....

Bernie as president will burp unicorns and make everything ok, and all class issues will be solved?

It takes both. It is not an either or nor one more important than the other.. I'm pretty sure I understand why he doesn't want to speak to the social side. I believe it is because he thinks he can build a better coalition not discussing it. In the article, he basically states it himself.

In other words, white men will be pissed and he needs them to vote for him. Class is something most can get on board with.

That is a craven politics at its base.

I prefer the coalition of persons who believe both are just as important as the other and "focus" on both.

[AOR]

130. This is what Sanders is saying Boston Bean...

these few quotes will help when Sanders talks about class.

" We got to face some facts. That the masses are poor, that the masses belong to what you call the lower class, and when I talk about the masses, I'm talking about the white masses, I'm talking about the black masses, and the brown masses, and the yellow masses, too. We've got to face the fact that some people say you fight fire best with fire, but we say you put fire out best with water. We say you don't fight racism with racism. We're gonna fight racism with solidarity. We say you don't fight capitalism with no black capitalism; you fight capitalism with socialism."

--Fred Hampton

"The labor movement was the principal force that transformed misery and despair into hope and progress. Out of its bold struggles, economic and social reform gave birth to unemployment insurance, old-age pensions, government relief for the destitute and, above all, new wage levels that meant not mere survival but a tolerable life. The captains of industry did not lead this transformation; they resisted it until they were overcome. When in the thirties the wave of union organization crested over the nation, it carried to secure shores not only itself but the whole society."

MLK —Speech to the state convention of the Illinois AFL-CIO, Oct. 7, 1965


"Less than a century ago the laborer had no rights, little or no respect, and led a life which was socially submerged and barren….American industry organized misery into sweatshops and proclaimed the right of capital to act without restraints and without conscience. The inspiring answer to this intolerable and dehumanizing existence was economic organization through trade unions. The worker became determined not to wait for charitable impulses to grow in his employer. He constructed the means by which fairer sharing of the fruits of his toil had to be given to him or the wheels of industry, which he alone turned, would halt and wealth for no one would be available…


MLK —Speaking to the AFL-CIO on Dec. 11, 1961


“For years I labored with the idea of reforming the existing institutions of society, a little change here, a little change there. Now I feel quite differently. I think you’ve got to have a reconstruction of the entire society...a radical redistribution of political and economic power.”

-- MLK 1967


"Negroes are almost entirely a working people…. Our needs are identical with labor's needs: decent wages, fair working conditions, livable housing, old-age security, health and welfare measures, conditions in which families can grow, have education for their children and respect in the community. That is why Negroes support labor's demands and fight laws which curb labor. That is why the labor-hater and labor-baiter is virtually always a twin-headed creature, spewing anti-Negro epithets from one mouth and anti-labor propaganda from the other mouth."

MLK —Speaking to the AFL-CIO on Dec. 11, 1961

[senz]

123. Bernie's an intelligent man. He would never say,

"we have overcome racism because a black president was elected"

Sometimes, "what you hear" isn't worth repeating.

[TiberiusB]

132. Sanders thinks racism is over? Hmmm, interesting...completely false, but interesting...

http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000003761034/bernie-sanders-on-racist-history-of-the-us.html

[zentrum]

135. Bernie would never say ...

..racism has been overcome because of the Obama Presidency.

Link please?

Ignorant white Republicans will never be empathetic with class issues. What are you talking about? Bernie has in no way told me he is not focused on the condition of women, the LGBT community, or racism. He didn't even evolve on gay marriage but has been for it from the get-go. He walked with MLK. He walked with the virtually enslaved Imokalee farm workers. She on the other hand, evolved. Wow.

In a nutshell---it doesn't serve any woman or child in this country or the world to have voted for the Iraq war. Please.

And don't pull the woman-every-day-idea with me. I'm one of them.

And always, always follow the $$ in politics. Hillary certainly does.

[kenfrequed]

170. False choice fallacy

Bernie has voted right on matters of race, gender, and sexual identity for DECADES. He was more correct on his opposition to DOMA early and often. I think it is terrible that you would suggest otherwise. How the hell do you sleep at night when you make implications like this that you know damned well are false.

[Fawke Em]

184. Actually, it is.

One of the reasons the KKK surged during the Great Depression (it had largely dwindled in numbers from the late 1870s to the 1920s) was because poor and middle class whites became concerned that people of color were "taking their jobs."

We know that we are living through a time now that is not very much different than the Gilded Age which ushered in the Great Depression in that income inequality is through the roof and wages are stagnant.

One of the ways to stave off bigotry is to allow opportunities for all. If you're living well and so are your neighbors - no matter their color, gender or sexual orientation - then you're much less likely to think of them as an enemy who is taking your job, threatening your existence or competing with you for dwindling resources. That's just psychology.

[Demit]

29. What would disappoint them?

[uponit7771]

67. People who are making no attempt to understand that most people of color

... In the US are not poor and fat wallets won't mitigate institutional racism

[ClassWarriorKY]

73. The ones who aren't part of the 48 million Americans living in poverty need to stop playing victim.

The whitest white man in that 48 million has way less privilege than the people of color who aren't part of the 48 million.

[heaven05]

86. Now that's BS nt

[randys1]

189. Complete bullshit, but some folks cant see that, and they may sincerely believe what

they are saying and that cloak of white privilege insinuates them so well.

[bettyellen]

88. If you're going for a strength in numbers argument then you should be worried

Bernie doesn't have them without women and POC.
He'll actually have to speak to them in his campaign- his stump speeches and his website. And not cut and paste history.

[uponit7771]

148. This is false on its face

[Demit]

118. the post I replied to said "people who value social issues" would be disappointed.

I don't understand how what you said follows.

If you're going to explain what someone else meant, could you make what you said clearer?

[AgingAmerican]

51. Except he isn't

nt

[randys1]

190. Of course he is, and denying that might make you feel better here at DU but it sure as HELL

will not endear Bernie, my candidate, with the minority base of the Dem party.

What amazes me about this debate is when POC tell Bernie supporters they dont feel included by his message, all they get back is

"Yes, you are included because of this quote (insert quote here) and because I say so"

When in reality what a Bernie supporter should do, and what I am doing, is trying to get the message to Bernie that he must revise his message to include them specifically, not as part of a group.

Knowing Bernie he will, eventually.

I tried to personally reach out to some level of his campaign staff but given the localized focus of their campaign there isnt a whole lot one can do if one is west of the Mississippi.

[AgingAmerican]

193. It isn't an either/or proposition

It isn't one at the expense of the other. There is no competition between the two, and the whole 'issue' is a strawman invented by Hillary supporters attempting to divide the party by race. He can walk and chew bubblegum simultaneously.

[ClassWarriorKY]

68. Good. There are 48 million people in this country living in poverty.

And their issues trump every single social issue.

If you're not part of the 48 million, you don't get to play victim.

[uppityperson]

74. If a person is disallowed legal protections due to sexual orientation, they don't get to "play

"play victim"? Are you saying that people should not have worked toward marriage equality?

I agree that economics issues are huge for too many, but do you understand that a lot of that is based on social issues like skin color?

If you'd clarify these points, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.

[ClassWarriorKY]

78. Economic issues didn't take a backseat because of those court battles.

Economic issues didn't take a backseat during the Civil Rights Movement. In fact, it was a large part of King's message.

But there are people now who want economic issues to take a backseat to their pet issues.

And the 48 million can't afford to let them do that.

[uppityperson]

83. Who is saying economics should take a "backseat to their pet issues"?

I don't understand who you mean. Thanks for continuing the discussion.

[randys1]

191. Pet issues? Wow, like denying civil rights or murdering Black kids for jaywalking?

[heaven05]

192. please, leave MLK out of your

asinine and obviously without a clue response. You insult his name/legacy. geez...

[randys1]

199. If you had a dollar for each time a white person (assume that poster is white) misuses

and incorrectly uses a quote from MLK to make some point when lecturing a Black person about why they are wrong, well.

You could have one of these





$3.8 million dollar handbag

[heaven05]

203. hah!!!

true "bling"......

[uponit7771]

71. Amen!!

[rhett o rick]

134. Do you have any evidence to back up your terrible accusation?

He believes that economic issues go hand in hand with social issues. It is a low trick to try to mislead his stands. Not one of the Sen Sander's supporters here that I've seen has placed economic justice over social justice. On the other hand, there are those here that believe that social justice is the end all and that we should let the billionaires decide on our economy, our environment and our foreign policy. Without economic justice we would soon lose all of the gains we have made in the last 50 years.

Democracy can't stand without economic justice and social justice can't stand without democracy.

Sanders is for the people's side for social justice AND economic justice.

[DanTex]

187. Umm, yeah, the whole article, starting with "I'm not a liberal".

-- “I look at these things more from a class perspective,”

-- Many of these people “may not be liberal” or may not “agree with me on gay marriage,” but “they want a fighter,” he said in the cordial conversation.

Notice that he doesn't say that he's gonna get votes from some people who disagree with him on economic issues because they want a fighter for social causes. His whole strategy is to emphasize economic issues rather than social issues which he sees as dividing the working class, in order to “cross traditional liberal-conservative lines.” Nothing wrong with that necessarily, but let's not pretend that's not what he's doing.

[rhett o rick]

198. "The whole article" isn't very specific. "I'm not a liberal" doesn't mean a thing

related to his priorities. I believe HRC also stated that she wasn't a liberal. Then you get to the "Notice that he doesn't say " silliness. He doesn't say a lot of things.

On which social issues does Sen Sanders disagree with HRC?

[DanTex]

201. It's a question of priorities, not a question of stances.

Sanders has liberal views on social issues, but his priority is economic issues. Which the article makes absolutely clear. That's what "I'm not a liberal" means.

Like I said in my last post, he's didn't say that he's gonna get votes from people who disagree with him on economic issues because he's such a strong fighter on things like gay rights. Instead he said that he's gonna get votes from people who disagree with him on gay marriage because he's such a strong fighter for the working class.

Not sure how it could be any clearer.

[rhett o rick]

204. In 2007 HRC said she preferred being called a progressive than a liberal.

What's clear is that HRC and Sen Sanders are very close on social issues but Sen Sanders and HRC are miles apart on economic issues, and war. Sen Sanders represents the people on social issues as well as economic issues. HRC does not represent the people on other than social issues. Goldman-Sacs is responsible for bringing down Greece. She has very close ties with them.

[kenfrequed]

165. I call bullshit.

Sanders has an unimpeachable record on social issues. Far better than Hillary and it goes back much farhter as well.

Try selling this line somewhere else.

[randys1]

195. Missing the point, AGAIN. Do you want Bernie in the WH in 2 yrs, yes or no?

If yes, STOP telling POC or whatever minority group that they are wrong, you are right.

That will NOT work, it cant work.

This is not about his record, as we know his record is amazing, he is a lifelong warrior for the rights of all, yes, but I know that, you might know that, but some other folks dont know that and they are NOT hearing what they need to hear.

Telling them they are wrong to have these feelings is really really a bad way to go.

[kenfrequed]

200. Uhm... right

I don't know ANYTHING about DanTex or his status as a member of any minority group. Nor do I think he is speaking on behalf of any particular minority group. If he is I would be welcome to hear him speak to such.

I am looking at two candidates that are running and their records. Their records are what we really have to go on. Anything else is campairn rhetoric that can be easily dropped or changed the moment it is inconvenient.


I would also point out that Senator Sanders has clung to inconvenient viewpoints on numerous occasions and his belief in the right to gay marriage has been adamant for literally decades.


As a long term member of a minority group and a long term supporter of the rights of all I also have feelings.


Re-read the comment DanTex made that I responded to. It was nothing but empty implication and bordered on flamebait. Which is probably why we find ourselves here now.

[BumRushDaShow]

8. "I’m not a liberal."

And under the bus the "liberals" go.

[flamingdem]

12. I think that was

an error. Bernie needs to embrace his inner liberal. Plus, why should that word be pushed to the right, better to embrace it as being progressive as well.

[Mnpaul]

49. He fits the definition

Liberalism is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. The former principle is stressed in classical liberalism while the latter is more evident in social liberalism. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas and programs such as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free markets, civil rights, democratic societies, secular governments, and international cooperation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

[MH1]

14. ^^^ THIS.

Also there is some confusion over the labels IMO (and the opinion of many others I know), but I feel like I lost that battle long ago so whatever, the words mean whatever the people wearing them want them to mean, I guess.

"Progressive" is in contrast to "Radical"

"Liberal" is in contrast to "Conservative"

A liberal could be a progressive OR a radical. That is what I want to know about Sanders: is he truly "progressive" or is he radical?

I already know he's a liberal or I wouldn't be interested in his politics.

I am sorry that he wants to continue the terminology confusion but whatever, that ship sailed a long time ago so I can live with that.

I don't like the throwing liberals under the bus part, however. "Oh, those people? I'm not one of THEM!"

Sigh.

[Marty McGraw]

65. Now watch what you say....

*•♪♫♭ llılılı... or they'll be calling you a Radical, a Liberal, ohh.. Fanatical, Criminal....llılılı ♫♪♭*•

[rhett o rick]

202. In 2007 HRC said she preferred being called a progressive than a liberal. nm

[BumRushDaShow]

205. Do you see a "Hillary" avatar or signature in my profile?

[rhett o rick]

207. Apparently I misunderstood your comment. nm

[cheapdate]

11. Whatever. I'm a liberal, progressive, environmentalist, non-interventionist, anarchist, etc.

As a liberal, I believe that the government should not be in the business of dictating morality. As a progressive, I believe that the government must play a role in curbing the excesses of business and ensuring that the powerless enjoy their fair share of justice and prosperity.

Holy crap. Bernie Sanders is as liberal as I am. Why the label game, I don't know.

[Fast Walker 52]

23. Indeed-- same here. I would like to hear Sanders' definition of what a liberal is.

there's a broad term of liberal -- your basic Dems and lefties-- and a more tightly defined political division. But I don't really know how it's defined in the latter case.

[cheapdate]

108. Well, one thing I've found is that among my leftist friends

there is not a creature more loathsome than the "liberal". It's their favorite punching bag, which is baffling because most all of them deeply share many traditional liberal values.

In general usage, liberal means free and generous. Broadly speaking, liberal is openness to change while conservative tends to stand with tradition -- traditional values and traditional institutions. In the context of political science, liberal has a specific meaning related to how power is shared. In the context of economics, liberal refers to how much or how little governmental market interference there is. In the context of religion, liberal refers to how religious dogma is interpreted.

In politics, as I said earlier, liberal is the belief, at the very least, that the government should not be in the business of dictating morality.

In popular politics, liberal means whatever you want it to mean.

[Fast Walker 52]

131. yes, thanks

The term liberal obviously was smeared by the GOP, and the media followed suit, and then the public got a bad taste of it. I always hated the way the term was made fun of, but then again, I always considered myself a proud liberal.

[SunSeeker]

13. Bernie's votes against the Brady Bill and for the PLCAA were certainly not liberal nor progressive.

He is pandering to the gun crowd, what he calls "rural America." Worse, he has adopted NRA talking points to defend his PLCAA gun manufacturer immunity vote, much to the dismay of some of his (now former) supporters:

As a lifelong Bernie Sanders fan, Honora Laszlo was hoping for the best when she came to a forum here Thursday night to challenge the Vermont senator and presidential candidate on his gun control position.
The avowed socialist Sanders voted in 2005 to prohibit lawsuits against gun manufacturers when crimes are committed with their weapons. In the wake of the 2012 massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut, he told a home-state media outlet that stronger gun control legislation wouldn't have prevented the shootings.

This bothered Laszlo, a member of the local chapter for Gun Sense In America, who agrees with Sanders on virtually every other issue. So she stood up to pointedly pin him down on the matter, seeking a conversion or at least a concession. Instead, she got a confrontation – which illuminated Sanders' weakest spot with liberals in his long-shot quest for the Democratic Party nomination...

"The overwhelming majority of people who hunt know about guns and respect guns and are law-abiding people. That's the truth," he said. "We will not succeed on this terribly important issue if we continue the cultural warfare between urban America and rural America."

But his answer on why gun manufacturers should be shielded from civil lawsuits is what really irked Laszlo.

"If somebody sells you a baseball bat and you hit somebody over the head, you're not going to sue the baseball bat manufacturer," Sanders said, to a smattering of applause among a mostly liberal audience. "I don't apologize for that vote."

Afterward, Laszlo called that analogy "ridiculous" and felt Sanders was employing language that mimicked the "dog-whistling" of the National Rifle Association.

...

She was yearning for him to change her mind: "He absolutely could've, if he had talked about it in a different way."

Instead, she walked out of Thursday's forum unable to support him.

"A lot of us were super Bernie Sanders supporters before," she says. "We were all really disappointed to hear him talk about it in this way that is boilerplate NRA language."

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/07/10/bernies-big-break-with-the-left-on-guns

[safeinOhio]

37. then there is this

Bernie Sanders on Gun Control; Senators. ... Rated F by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun control voting record. Sanders scores F by NRA on pro-gun rights policies.


You'd think they would have given him at least an F+ for that one.

[SunSeeker]

109. Bernie has a D- rating with the NRA. A passing grade, no?

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-exception-bernie-sanders-liberalism

I imagine Bernie's votes against the Brady Bill and for the PLCAA earned him that NRA passing grade.

[Agnosticsherbet]

127. Sanders voted against the Brady bill and voted to deny Amerians the right to suit gun manufaturers.

His grade with the NRA is a red hearing. What mattered is how he voted.

[Demit]

38. LOL! I can't think of a word that describes Sanders less than "pandering."

And your excerpt shows it. It angered the woman, who wanted a "conversion" or a "concession," when he said he wouldn't apologize for his vote. Sanders is a man of conviction--and he's always ready to explain why he holds the convictions he does. Avoiding that, to say something mealy-mouthed that would be vague enough so she would take it as "concessionary," now THAT would be pandering.

[SunSeeker]

116. What "conviction" would lead you to vote against the Brady Bill?

Other than the conviction to get re-elected in a gun-loving state like Vermont?

[Demit]

119. Well, I didn't know either so I looked it up for you.

"In his book Outsider in the House, Sanders wrote he opposed the bill because he felt handgun waiting periods could be dealt with at the state level."

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/29/399818581/5-things-you-should-know-about-bernie-sanders

This seems relevant, too: "Sanders has supported some gun control while in Congress. He voted for a federal assault weapons ban himself in 1994, coming within 3.3 points of losing his House seat that November. He voted for the high-capacity magazine ban. Sanders currently has an F rating from the NRA."

There's other interesting info at this link. But if you're dead set against him, maybe not.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/01/bernie-sanders-second-amendment-socialist/#ixzz3fi3BdbCo

[SunSeeker]

124. Seriously, you're linking to Daily Caller?

And why would he resort to nonsensical NRA/right wing talking points about "leaving it to the states"? It clearly hasn't worked "leaving it to the states." Not on gun control, not on civil rights. That is why the Brady Bill was proposed. There are states that simply refuse to pass waiting periods or any gun control legislation. Like Vermont.

And clearly he has no "conviction" that states rights should always prevail, since he votes against states rights all the time---just not when it might hurt him with gun lovers in Vermont.

[Demit]

140. If there's wrong information in those sources, please correct me.

Otherwise, I get that you don't like Sanders on this issue and I'm going to leave it at that. You are being argumentative & a little too belligerent for me to want to engage with you any further.

[SunSeeker]

141. So it's "belligerent" to point out you cited the Daily Caller?

Why would you link to the Daily Caller, a hideous right wing rag, and give it the advertiser money generating clicks? Only the Daily Caller has quoted Bernie's book? Nope. Is the Daily Caller a trusted source? Nope. Surely others besides the Daily Caller have cited Bernie's book and discussed this issue.

But I see your real problem is you can't explain what "conviction" Bernie is sticking to with regard to his vote against the Brady Bill, and now you must exit the conversation.

[Demit]

142. No, it's because you are becoming increasingly unpleasant.

And increasingly argumentative (now you demand to know why I would give the Daily Caller advertising money). Think what you like. I won't respond to you again.

[SunSeeker]

143. This is the Primaries forum, not the Bernie Sanders Group.

Ironic that you accuse me of being unpleasant when you chose to enter this conversation by attacking my comment with derision, complete with a "LOL!"

It is objectionable that you cite to the Daily Caller and I understand it to be in violation of the Terms of Service here.

[Comrade Grumpy]

15. No, he's not a liberal. He's a democratic socialist. To the left of liberals.

Liberals are okay with corporate capitalism. They'd like it to be a little nicer.

Bernie wants to attack the billionaire class. Liberals want it to fund their campaigns.

[haikugal]

22. Ok, so I have to redefine everything now?

Word games, head games and confusion....more of the same!

[BooScout]

20. He's never been a Democrat either.....

But that's not stopping him from playing the system to try and get to the WH by hitching a ride on the back of the Democratic party.

[haikugal]

24. Clinton would never do that, right?

It is what it is.....

[thesquanderer]

54. Right, like carpetbagging. A means to an end.

HRC saw NY as her best possible path to the Senate. Sanders sees the Democratic party as his best (well, only) possible path to the Presidency. That's politics. Nobody is claiming that Sanders doesn't know how to play politics. Nobody wins who doesn't know how to play the game.

[jeff47]

160. Actually, he gave his reasons

They come down to he did not want to split the left-of-center vote with an independent campaign, because that would let the Republican win.

[thesquanderer]

162. Right. Like I said, a means to an end. It's not a criticism. (n/t)

[Dawgs]

26. Yes he is. Just of a different era.

Hillary, Obama, Bill on the other hand.

[BooScout]

32. No he isn't....

Not in this era or any other has he ever been a member of the Democratic Party nor has he been known as a Democrat.

[Maedhros]

90. That's a feature, not a bug.

Democrats have become impotent.

[BooScout]

122. If they are so impotent then why.....

....does Sanders feel he needs the Democratic Party to get elected President?

If they are so impotent, then how in the world did they get President Obama elected not once, but twice?

I love these question and answer threads!

[Dawgs]

156. Simple. We have a flawed system.

And, electing a Democrat president does not mean the party can't still be impotent. Remember 2014?

[boston bean]

28. Very true... I'm sorry, but Democrats don't leave social justice out of the equation.

Maybe a self described "democratic socialist" (whatever that means) does.

[haikugal]

89. I don't think Bernie leaves it out either. nt

[boston bean]

92. He tells you his focus. Are you calling Bernie a liar? nt

[haikugal]

98. I have a difference of opinion...

You can't level the playing field without economic justice...it goes hand in hand with social justice.

[boston bean]

100. That is not what Bernie Sanders is saying.

So, your difference of opinion lies with him, not me.

[haikugal]

104. If he is looking at things from a class perspective he certainly is in agreement with me...

His work for decades has been about just such things regardless of how this is being spun.

[randys1]

197. Even if true, look at his motives, please. Do you see a man who wants to gain power

and riches by using the political system or the Democratic party?

I dont.

I see a man who has a lifetime record of giving a shit about you and me and minorities.

I see a man who needs a tune up as to how he reaches out to minorities, but he has the bona fides to do just that, he wont have to make shit up when he finally decides to address POC.

[2banon]

30. Excellent Response Bernie, unfortunately Media Robots never understood the term "Liberal".

Because they allowed the Repukes to define the term solely in the context of political campaigns and institutionalized their definition and references in mainstream discussions to the so called "two party" system, candidates, elections etc. .

Bernie might consider being a bit more specific in that regard. My suggestion would be to urge he use the term Neo-Liberal which is far more accurate in this context, imo.

On edit for reference: "Neo Liberals" = "Third Way"

[Buzz Clik]

31. That quote epitomizes Sanders, the career politician.

If you actually take the time to sit and listen to Sanders, you recognize that, in the context of those controversial issues in which his stands are poorly defined, he is a master of sounding like he is saying something when he is saying nothing.

“I’m not a liberal. Never have been. I’m a progressive who mostly focuses on the working and middle class.” That is wonderfully appealing and sounds like everyone should love him ... until you start looking for the substance under the style.

[SunSeeker]

112. Yup, and like any politician, he knows how to pick his battles.

Pushing for single payer legislation in the most liberal state in the union was not tough. Bernie was happy to be all over tv and the radio talking about how Vermont's single payer law would be the "model for the US." I remember him talking on Breakfast with Bernie on the Thom Hartman Show about how he was going to make single payer work for Vermont and be a model for the rest of the country. That was over 2 years ago. It never happened, even though the Governor and Vermont state legislature supported single payer and even passed the law making it possible. But when it came time to push for the $5 billion tax increase to pay for the law, Bernie went AWOL, leaving the Governor and the legislature twisting in the wind. It was no wonder they quickly folded as well.

Yup, when the hard, politically risky work started (figuring out a way to pay for it), Bernie didn't follow through:

Where was Bernie Sanders?

When single payer was a theory, a campaign talking point, and progressive dream, Bernie Sanders was all in. When the Governor and legislature enacted it into law, Bernie Sanders touted it as a model for the nation:

“If Vermont can pass a strong single-payer system and show it works well, it will not only be enormously important to this state, it will be a model,” Sanders said in 2013.

Vermont is without a doubt the most liberal state in the union. It is the only state that has single payer healthcare as law. Bernie Sanders was instrumental in fighting for that law. He made lots of speeches advocating it, much as he is doing now running for president.

But when the time came for the hard work, the difficult task of pushing, cajoling, persuading, 'leading the people' as Sanders likes to say, to get Vermonters and the legislature to accept the necessary tax increases to make single payer a reality, Bernie Sanders was AWOL.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/27/1397137/-Bernie-Sanders-Single-Payer-Vermont

[Buzz Clik]

113. Good post. Very informative. Thanks.

[shenmue]

151. Won't matter to some, though

To some, he can do no wrong. Therefore, when he failed, it did not exist.

[neverforget]

34. Whatever he calls himself, his views mostly align with mine

and that's what matters.

[L0oniX]

36. Because labels are everything...

to the stupid.

[boston bean]

42. Bernie has labeled himself. nt

[L0oniX]

44. You just made my point. Thanks for playing.

[boston bean]

46. Ok, your point was what, again? nt

[uponit7771]

69. Let him label himself a Obama Care hater.... See how that makes no difference

... To dem base

[L0oniX]

163. Of course. Everyone who wants single payer is an Obama care hater.

[uponit7771]

168. Red herring, no one is talking about single payer, labels DO matter ... call yourself...

...something and notice how people react

[L0oniX]

172. You brought up Obama Care. Bernie is for universal health care.

Oh ...and single payer is universal health care

[turbinetree]

40. Count me in...................

Honk ---------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

[JenniferJuniper]

43. I think Sanders thinks of "liberals" in the sense Phil Ochs did

"10 degrees to the left of center in good times. 10 degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally."

In the 60's and 70's, the term "liberal" had a much more middle of the road connotation. Then the Reaganites turned it into something else.

"Progressive" is a far better term and one that I think more people can relate to now.

[artislife]

59. I think he thinks of "liberals" in the sense

how a lot of H supporters think of it. I really don't care what he calls himself, I call him a godsend.

[kath]

79. "I really don't care what he calls himself, I call him a godsend."

Word.
That would make a good campaign poster/button/tshirt.
A great line which should be repeated over and over.

[safeinOhio]

45. Here is what I call him, Anti-Fascist.

Read these and you'll see why. It's time to hang that label on the right, as they seem to get pick our labels.


http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

[Little Star]

63. Agree!

[Buzz Clik]

114. He should run on that! Anti-fascism is HUGH right now. n/t

[BeyondGeography]

50. Fine...if you're running to be leader of the too cool for school club

I'm not a Democrat nor am I a liberal. Now here's why I should be the Democratic nominee...

This is inside baseball with a healthy scoop of vanity. He shouldn't have bothered going there.

[Thinkingabout]

52. I am a life long liberal and Democrat which focus on the working and middle class.

[Sheepshank]

58. That explains his stand on guns...it's not supposed to be liberal.

[DCBob]

60. He sure votes like one..

He's ranked number 1 in Voteview's liberal rankings based on Senate voting record..

http://voteview.com/SENATE_SORT110.HTM

[LWolf]

94. The terms "liberal" and "progressive"

aren't clearly defined, other than to mean "not conservative." And even that's a gray area, depending on the definition of "conservative."

There are numerous definitions, and it's part of the political game to manipulate those definitions to serve political purposes.

The bottom line? He's not a neo-liberal, which has a clearer definition.

The rest? "Liberal" and "progressive" goals often intersect, since unless you are a neo-liberal (economic liberalism) or a member of the "Progressive Policy Institute," a neo-liberal think tank, liberals and progressives are generally focused on making the nation a better place for the 99%.

[demwing]

97. Good. IMO, "Liberal" is no longer enough

We need a progressive populist:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12778771

[DFW]

107. Progressive populist sounds like the best description yet

All this "Democratic Socialist" stuff seems like packaging sugary cereal in a box with wheat fields on it, so environmentally conscious people will buy it that shouldn't. Socialism means the government controls the means of production, and I don't see that in Bernie's platform. No state that ever went that way lasted anyway. You need to give people more incentive than the Order of Lenin on your chest to get them to excel. Besides, the only party to use that label, the German "Party of Democratic Socialism," was the new name of the East German ruling party after the Wall fell, and they didn't even bother to apologize for shooting their own citizens at the wall ("it was prevailing law at the time," they used to say, the same excuse used by their Nazi predecessors after 1945).

But a progressive populist? That sounds both accurate AND benevolent. Someone ought to suggest it to the Sanders campaign.

[Buzz Clik]

115. He'd better have greater appeal than that, or this will be a fast flameout.

[demwing]

149. Thanks for your concern

I'll note it in the Book of Concerns

[Buzz Clik]

155. My pleasure.

[William769]

129. Kick & Recommended.

[bigtree]

139. liberals under the Sanders campaign bus

...got it.

[LWolf]

180. I don't think so.

I think that the term "liberal" has lost any clear meaning since the DLC neo-liberals co-opted it.

I think that Sander's record and positions on almost all issues fit the traditional liberal better than the neo-liberals now claiming the term.

I was thrown under the bus before Obama was even inaugurated when he started making appointments. I won't be under the bus during a Sander's administration.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. Nope he's made an academic distinction I make often

one most people miss.

[raouldukelives]

144. In the words of Carlin, leave symbols to the symbol minded.

Heck, sometimes I feel like a conservative since I'd like to conserve our biosphere, our mountains and rivers, our jobs and safety nets, our rights and democracy.

Someone even told me once conservatives believed in those things themselves at one time but I just had to laugh.

Those are far left ideals these days.

[whatchamacallit]

161. You're doing it wrong, Bernie

Choose the appropriate label and quit telling the truth.

[yurbud]

174. he means "liberal" in the narrower sense that the rest of the world uses it not anyone to left of

Ann Coulter like we do.

"Liberal" essentially means managed capitalism with some sops to those chewed up by the system.

"Neoliberalism" is the same thing minus the sops--or if they continue, they must be provided by for profit contractors.

[cascadiance]

186. Bernie should emphasize "populist"... That term would be very hard for corporatists to try to steal

Since that term's definition reflects a meaning directly opposite to anything promoting corporate 1%er power. These entities might be trying to redefine the terms "liberal" and "progressive" that are more nebulous, but I think trying to claim populists support corporate power would be pretty laughable to the public!