Class or Ideology? My Conversation With Bernie Sanders

[boston bean]

“Everything I’m telling you may end up being wrong,” Bernie Sanders, the Vermont senator seeking the Democratic nomination for president, said early in our conversation on Thursday.

I had written an article concluding he had slim chances of winning the nomination, based on the limits of his ideological appeal. Mr. Sanders was building a coalition of liberals, as have past liberal anti-establishment Democrats, and it was likely to fall short.

But Mr. Sanders, who has surged in the polls against Hillary Clinton, called to advance a different theory of the race. “I look at these things more from a class perspective,” he said.

“I’m not a liberal. Never have been. I’m a progressive who mostly focuses on the working and middle class.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/12/upshot/class-or-ideology-my-conversation-with-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

Well, there you go. Right from the horses mouth.

[Comrade Grumpy]

1. Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

[boston bean]

2. I don't agree with him on this. So, to me it's a bad thing.

I happen to belong to a class of persons who lives social injustice, even when though I'm not dirt poor.

So, to me, personally I think his outlook sucks. I much prefer someone who focuses on all the issues.

But hey, that's just me.

[Comrade Grumpy]

3. Are you trying to suggest Sanders doesn't care about social justice issues?

He has a long record that suggests otherwise.

[boston bean]

4. I read what he says. So, yeah, I don't think it is a focus of his.

Plus he thinks we have overcome much of the racism, because we elected a black president.

Yes, I think he cares very little and that he sees it in only economic terms. You can read what he said for yourself, no?

[Comrade Grumpy]

5. I think he sees those issues through the prism of economics and class struggle.

So, yeah, there could be a different rhetorical emphasis. But I have no doubt Sanders wants social justice, too.

I also think you're being a bit unfair to Sanders about that overcoming racism remark. I heard as overcoming racism enough to elect a black president, not that we had overcome racism in general. Do you honestly think Sanders believes that?

I really don't get this effort to divide social and economic justice. To me, they are two sides of the same coin. Seeing gay marriage legalized or confederate flags coming down is good, but it doesn't pay the rent.

[boston bean]

12. Yes, I do believe it, because of what he says. nt

[PotatoChip]

13. I too am a strong supporter of social justice issues.

In fact, it was the feminism of my earlier years, and the possibility of a female VP (Geraldine Ferraro) that first drew me to politics. Other major social justice issues followed, and became integral to my activism within the Democratic party establishment.

It is Bernie Sanders' incredible strength on these social justice issues that has me supporting him.

[boston bean]

15. I don't see it.

From what I have read, he has repeatedly stated in so many words that econ issues will solve these issues.

I know from experience they will not.

That is how he is running his campaign, as he feels he can build a coalition by not alienating persons by touching on hot button issues (many of which are the social justice issues of today). That to me is craven politics. And it feels yucky to me.

Am I not to believe him when he flat out states this?

[PotatoChip]

18. I guess we just see things differently on this matter.

And will have to agree to disagree.

However, (and a bit off topic)... but I do want you to know that I've admired your wonderful feistiness on feminist, and other important issues for quite some time now.

[boston bean]

24. Same here. I hold no malice for anyone here that has a different opinion.

I do appreciate the respectful disagreement.

Most often when discussing things about Sanders position and his ideology, one has to endure lots of personal insults and persons ascribing ugly motivations to a poster. see below..

So, thanks for not doing that. Not that I thought you would.

I do appreciate you as well!

[PotatoChip]

26. Thank you so much.

I haven't looked yet, but I'm sorry you are going through that kind of unpleasantness.

After the primaries, we are all going to need to stand together, and fight like hell for our candidate, whoever she or he may be. I think people sometimes forget that, unfortunately.

[LWolf]

14. If you think that class issues

aren't social justice issues, you need more than I can provide on a discussion board.

[boston bean]

16. Why so mean, LWolf?

You think I am stupid?

[LWolf]

17. Nope.

I don't think you're stupid at all. I think you're being disingenuous, manipulating political terms to spin them to an erroneous conclusion that benefits your agenda.

I don't think it's "mean" to point that out, or to be less than impressed with the attempt.

[boston bean]

19. I think I'm making a valid point, one you seem to disagree with Bernie on.

Don't shoot the messenger or read much more into than that.

[LWolf]

20. I think that

economic and social injustices are interconnected.

I've lived them both.

That's not a disagreement with Sanders. It's a disagreement with your suggestion that his focus on "the working and middle class" leaves social justice behind.

[boston bean]

21. He is the one who stated what his focus is.

And he has stated that America has overcome racism, because a black president was elected.

So, what I am stating is the truth of his position.

Whether you like it or not. But it does put you at odds with Bernie Sanders.

[LWolf]

22. Yep.

And he doesn't think one kind of justice is exclusive from others; he's stated that, too.

[boston bean]

23. Except that his focus will be economics.

See, this leaves out a big part of the equation.

You're ok with that. But don't think that I'm stupid, manipulating or whatever else it is that rolled off your tongue about me.

It was a specific point. One backed by Sanders own lips.

[LWolf]

25. Just keep ignoring

the fact that his focus is, and always has been, both. That he chooses to talk about economics for this election, during a time when the middle class has crashed, isn't a surprise. I don't think you'll find him falling behind Clinton, or anyone else, when it comes to actually ACTING on matters of social justice that are not directly related to economics, though. He's got a strong history of doing just that.

Which issues of social justice would you like to compare when it comes to candidates' records?

[boston bean]

27. When someone is running for president and they refuse

to put it in those terms and tell you outright what their focus is... ie, the other not being a focus...

That is fair game, and it is not a lie, it is not a manipulation it is nothing other than pointing out how he is running his campaign and what HE states is his focus.

[LWolf]

28. What is it that you think he's refused?

Again, your whole premise is based on segregation, while his is based on integration.

[boston bean]

30. For real? This is getting us no where. I'm done speaking nicely to someone

who continues to hurl personal insults.

I have nothing against you personally. I have nothing bad to say about you personally. I'm done with the attacks.

When you want to discuss what he has stated his focus is, get back with me.

[LWolf]

35. Interesting.

I've yet to hurl a single insult, personal or otherwise, at you.

I haven't attacked you. I've engaged with you on your thread, with what you wanted to talk about. Please post a link in which Sanders says that he is not focused on social justice...

Meanwhile, I understand and acknowledge that he, so far, always brings economics into the conversation about racial justice. I'm going to say racial justice, since that seems to be the focus of those talking about social justice, which, of course, includes other matters outside of race.

I understand that you don't like that integration, and that you'd like him to spend more time on racial justice. So would I. I know, though, that his record on matters of racial and other social justice issues is as strong or stronger than anyone in the race, and that record goes back a very long way.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politics/100000003761034/bernie-sanders-on-racist-history-of-the-us.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-bernie-sanders/united-against-the-war-on_b_1464730.html

[boston bean]

36. right...

I think you're being disingenuous, manipulating political terms to spin them to an erroneous conclusion that benefits your agenda.

That was you making it personal.

[LWolf]

37. No, that was me answering YOUR question. nt

[boston bean]

38. No, it was you telling me I was being disingenuous and furthering an agenda.

That is not what I would call a compliment or even a conversation in good faith.

And then you go on to intimate the I am promoting segregation. Nice...

There is no value in discussing this further.

[LWolf]

40. You asked 2 questions:

"Why so mean, LWolf? You think I am stupid?"

I don't think it was "mean" to point out that class issues ARE social justice issues. It clearly it wasn't your intelligence at issue, but something else. I characterized that something else with the word "disingenuous."

Are you not promoting the segregation of social and economic justice? Isn't your complaint that Sanders doesn't address social justice without bringing economic justice into it?

[boston bean]

41. Uh, no I'm not, but Sanders thinks one is more important to be focused on.

[bobbobbins01]

32. Well you're definitely manipulating since you're clearing taking him out of context.

You can pretend you're not, and you might even truly believe you're not, but that doesn't change the fact. Keep fighting the good fight, champ.

[boston bean]

33. I am not manipulating a thing.

Bernie's words speak for themselves. I just happen to believe him. You don't.

[bobbobbins01]

39. I do believe him. I also believe context matters. You don't.

Because there is no way possible he could have meant the united states overcame racism in its ability to elect a black president. He could only have meant that racism was completely eradicated. The most nonsensical way to take his statement must be the correct one! What difference does it make!!!!

[ljm2002]

6. Whereas with Hillary Clinton you get...

...someone who speaks directly and forcefully to social issues (most of the time -- cf. marriage equality until quite recently), but who waffles and equivocates when it comes to the hard economic issues.

I'll take Sanders and his clearly stated positions TYVM.

[ClassWarriorKY]

7. I'm sick of people who aren't poor acting like they're victims in this country.

Honestly, truly sick of it.

I don't care what kind of plumbing you have, what your skin color is, or whom you love... if you have a big bank account, you don't get to play victim. You just don't.

The real victims in this country are the 45 million people living in poverty. Even the white ones with penises who have to dig through their couches for change to buy bread.

Do I think everyone else should to take a backseat to these 45 million people? YES! And it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.

[boston bean]

9. Well, a one hit wonder, daring to speak the truth

so many appear to feel, but are afraid to say it. Good job!

Answer to your point, blacks/women/gays won't sit at the back of the bus any longer. The money never seems to find it's way down in a fair way... why you might ask, because of bigotry. That is why people who identify with those groups, aren't buying it's all about economics argument.

[ClassWarriorKY]

10. The 48 million people (it was 3 million more than I thought) living in poverty

are a diverse group of people and they have ZERO privilege.

Anyone who isn't part of the 48 million will never know what it's like to truly struggle.

[boston bean]

11. READ what I wrote, if you want to have a conversation.

Your response is not in any way related to the post I made to you.

What it is, is a regurgitation of the point you wrote that I already responded to.

[AgingAmerican]

8. Awesome!

Thanks for this!!

Go Bernie!!

[tularetom]

29. What is this "social justice" everybody keeps prattling on about?

I heard somebody on the radio the other day (Sirius 127) whining about the fact that Bernie Sanders has apparently pissed them off because he has not yet uttered the words "black lives matter".

It made it sound like the person who said that was willing to settle for cheap talk in lieu of action to improve those black lives that matter so much to them.

And that led me to believe that anybody who believed that could be easily swayed by empty campaign promises.

Which led me to believe that the only kind of "justice" that will do anybody any good is economic, that is eliminating the gross injustices of income and wealth that have been allowed to perpetuate themselves in 21st century America.

[bettyellen]

31. So social justice is out the window because- campaign promises? That doesn't even follow.

[tularetom]

42. So if Sen Sanders were to simply say the three words "black lives matter"

He would then be a champion of "social justice"? Seems like an awfully low bar.

Do you understand what I wrote? They were pissed off at him because he had not yet said those words. Didn't matter how he has voted throughout his legislative career, he had to say those words or he was a racist. Facts were less important to them than cheap talk.

I kept listening and nothing was said about Ms Clinton's awkward, ham handed use of the phrase "all lives matter", spoken at an African American church.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/06/24/hillary-clintons-all-lives-matter-remark-stirs-backlash/?_r=0

I suspect there is a Clinton distraction team out there trying to spread the "Sanders is a racist" meme, but that's just my paranoid nature.

[bettyellen]

44. Wow. U.S. Think three little words will swing it when the issue is he spend about 90 seconds and....

That ain't enough? Again- how does that follow?
Are you actually reading what people have said here? It appears not.

[tularetom]

46. Symbolism over substance

Enjoy being pandered to and have a nice day.

[William769]

34. They don't believe mr. Ed can talk, they only blieve in the fantasy.

[freshwest]

43. Well, uh...

Or a bad case of the giggles...

[mmonk]

45. You can be a liberal and follow rightwing economic policy

but progressive is different. In that vein, I'm progressive.