How Bernie Sanders plans to win, and change Washington

[Jefferson23]

Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vermont, says he'll be able to build a giant grassroots movement of support to win the Democratic nomination and the 2016 election, but that he'll also go one step further than President Obama did successfully harness his grassroots support to change Washington.

In an interview on CBS' "Face the Nation" Sunday, Sanders said that the president ran "one of the great campaigns in the history of the United States of America" in 2008, but he also made a mistake by trying to negotiate fair compromises with Republicans and their leadership in Congress.

"The truth is Republicans never wanted to negotiate, all they wanted to do is obstruct," Sanders said. "What I have said throughout this campaign is electing Bernie Sanders as president is not enough. Not going to do it. We need a mass grassroots movement that looks the Republicans in the eye and says, 'If you don't vote to demand that your wealthy people start paying their fair share of taxes, if you don't vote for jobs, raising the minimum wage and expanding Social Security, we know what's going on, we're involved, we're organized, you are outta here if you don't do the right thing.'"

He plans to build that grassroots coalition by bringing more people into the political process and focusing heavily on poverty and income inequality.

"I'm going to be going around the country not only to blue states...but to red states, conservative states. We're going to go to Alabama, we're going to go to Mississippi," Sanders said. "I think the message that we have is resonating. People are going to get involved in the political process, we're going to drive turnout up and when we do that we win."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-bernie-sanders-plans-win-2016-change-washington/

[peacebird]

1. His message IS reasonating, across the spectrum

[Rosa Luxemburg]

52. Yes it is

[lewebley3]

2. Hillary, plans to fight Sanders, and Win

[Jefferson23]

3. Yep, that is her plan. n/t

[cui bono]

4. What kind of fighting??? MMA, boxing...? Does Bernie know? Has he agreed?

Alt. response.... The best laid plans...

[sabrina 1]

11. I hope she plans to fight on the ISSUES. So far her campaign has

been doing what voters are so sick and tired of, not addressing issues, but launching personal attacks on Sanders. Nothing so far has worked, in fact the backlash should teach all of them that the voters now have a choice of a candidate who will not stoop to these old, negative, non-issues campaigns.

He has taught the press that he will not attack Hillary as her surrogates have done to him, he has stated over and over again, that he respects her. And that they disagree on issues which he will talk about.

If she is aware of the tactics of these surrogates, Gutierrez, McCaskill, DNC, member Boyd Brown and the latest, Anthony Weiner and their negative campaigning on her behalf, my advice, if she wants to win, is to put a stop to it right away.

This is going to be a different campaign due to Bernie's presence in the race. To try to run it the old way isn't going to help any of them.

As anyone can see, so far all these negative tactics, not to mention O'Malley's super pac ad, which he disavowed to his credit, have simply backfired.

Campaigns should be conducted on ISSUES, nothing else.

[lewebley3]

14. Voters, are supporting Hillary; Because they already know where she Stands!

The personal attacks have come from Sanders people,

Hillary, should not be advise by a person like you who obviously hate her,
she should run the campaign the way she wants.

She has answered questions for 30 years or better, everyone knows
she is a loyal Dem.

All her supporters have done has been to ask Sanders questions he is
the unknown. (he has never been accountable for his views)

Sorry, we Hillary Dems, are not infatuated with Sanders, I have listened
to Sanders on the Tom Hartman show for years, he is not impressive,
just a nice man.

From your statement you are helping the GOP divided the Dem's

[sabrina 1]

19. "Hillary, should not be advise by a person like you who obviously hate her"????

Provide one shred of evidence to back up that vile claim. One post of mine over a decade here or anywhere else, that would give ANYONE the right to make such a false claim.

You can't, you won't, in fact there was no one who stood up for the Clintons MORE than I when they were under attack from the far right wing.

False statements like that do not help your candidate one bit.

I am all about ISSUES. She has been so wrong on so many important issues while Sanders has been so right on so many important issues, that for those of us who are not into 'personalities' when it comes to what is best for this country, there is simply no way to support someone who has ADMITTED her bad judgement, in supporting Bush's Wars, in supporting his NCLB, among other things.

I don't waste time on 'hate', it is a wasted emotion though it appeared to jump right into your head to accuse someone of 'hatred' because they DON'T agree that your preferred candidate is the best choice for this country.

How sad that this is all you could think of in defense of your candidate, to hurl false accusations at someone you do not even know. It certainly calls your own judgement into question. I can't imagine accusing anyone I do not know of something like that.

[lewebley3]

21. Read the Sanders supporters posting concerning Hillary!

My Claim is more than backed up about the attacks on Hillary : I am done with issues I know
where Hillary stands, and know her skills.

Bush is responsible the War not Hillary, what good judgment has Sanders had by sitting doing
nothing in the Senate for years. (Is that good judgment, or was he coward)

Sanders views on war didn't matter, he only reps 600,000, very liberal citizens.

[Avalux]

22. The post you're replying to didn't even hint at hating Hillary.

It's a rational post that talks about the issues; disagreeing isn't hatred. How you got the the DUer hates Hillary is mind-boggling.

[lewebley3]

23. You, are willfully misundertsanding: Sanders supporter have attacked Hillary personally

Not on issues, Hillary and Sanders have almost the same positions,
Hillary has put her self out on the national stage fighting for them.

Sander has only sat in the senate talking about what needs to be done.

[Avalux]

24. Before you attack others, take a good look in the mirror.

In this thread, in the context of the post you over-emotionally replied to, the only one with the negative vibe is you.

[lewebley3]

25. I didn't bring it up you did

[Avalux]

26. Sure, if you say so. n/t

[sabrina 1]

72. Hillary and Sanders do not have the same positions. Sanders voted AGAINST

the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, NCLB, all Bush policies, Hillary voted for those terrible policies.

I do not attack candidates personally which you claimed. Hillary supporters, including OFFICIAL Hillary campaign members have personally attacked Sanders, he will not and does not send out surrogates, like McCaskill, Gutierrez and Weiner to do so. He doesn't need to. He focuses on ISSSUES.

You personally attacked me out of the blue making a false accusation of 'hatred' which you cannot back up which everyone who knows me here knows is false.

When people do stuff like that they lose credibility. That isn't my problem, but if someone falsely accuses me of something I will set the record straight.

[lewebley3]

81. Sanders votes and positions didn't matter: His votes for 620,0000 people in his state

He had no decisions make: The people of Vermont 95%white, and almost
100% lib.

[sabrina 1]

82. So the Iraq War didn't matter to the thousands of US Troops from all

over the country who, thanks to those who sent them there, including Hillary, are no long with us. I suppose to them it doesn't matter anymore.

Or the over one million innocent Iraqis, they don't care anymore because they also are not with us anymore.

I disagree with your assessment that when a Senator casts vote on issues as hugely important as that, it matters only to the people in his state.

Could explain this new philosophy that you are sharing with us here, that when elected officials cast votes that effect the entire country, see NCLB eg, it only effects a few people in their states? That's a new one to me.

[lewebley3]

84. Bush made the decision to go to war alone : Bush say so!

Don't visit the sins of Bush, Cheney, and the GOP, on to
Hillary, and when Clintons were in power they made a much
different choice:, the one military decision they did
make ( Kosovo) was the right one. Hillary make
a fine commander in chief

Hillary voted to support her President, and unlike Sanders, who
has only 620,000 white liberal, Hillary had to consider New
Yorkers, who were in favor of supporting the President.

[sabrina 1]

87. Bush could not have made that decision if everyone had done what Sanders

did, stopped him with their vote. Do not try to make excuses for those who helped the Bush gang pass some of the worst legislation in recent memory using scare tactics to do it.

Hillary voted for the Iraq War and to fund it every chance she got. AND she never admitted to being wrong about it until she decided to run for the WH.

She voted for the Patriot Act, while courageous politicians, too few of them to stop Bush and they could have used some help from people like Hillary, voted against it, people like Barbara Lee and Bernie Sanders.

Sorry, I don't take excuses for the actions of individuals who want us to give them the most important job in the country.

She has now told us she 'believed Bush' would not abuse the power she helped give him!! So the best you can say about that is, WE KNEW, Sanders KNEW, because it didn't take a lot of thinking it out to know these war criminals were lying.

Which means she does not have the judgement necessary in a leader to make critical decisions when they need to be made.

Sanders has that judgement and that is what I want in a leader. Someone who makes the right call when it comes to something as important as sending our troops to war.

Someone who sees the threat to our Democracy of legislation like the Patriot Act.

Someone who knows without waiting for years to evolve that ALL AMERICANS are entitled by birth to EQUAL RIGHTS under the law. See DOMA again.

We don't have the luxury as a nation to wait for leaders to 'evolve' on these issues, due to the lack of good judgement in our leadership, PEOPLE HAVE DIED! How much more serious does it get than that?

[lewebley3]

88. Sanders represents a state with very few interest and very few people

His vote didn't matter, his vote still doesn't matter, it effect very few people

What is this talk about Sanders being a leader, he has been sitting in the senate
doing nothing, leading nothing. He chose his 73rd year life to finally get involved,
Other Dem's Obama's, Clintons and Dem's have been leading putting their
lives and families online, while Sanders at out all the political fights on his
behind in the Senate.

Sanders is no leader! His judgments has been to hide in the Senate


Again the War as GOP decision, not the Dem's or Hillary, Bush chose war no one else,
(again Bush said so)

Congress did not vote on a war resolution anyway, they voting bill to use force to help
Bush remove WMD.

[2banon]

45. "Voters, are supporting Hillary; Because they already know where she Stands"

Wow..

[Aerows]

46. I know

LOL.

WTF do you say to a statement like that?

"The moon is made of cheese".

[restorefreedom]

49. she has been very clear as to where she stands and for whom

?itok=yIi-5GiA

[2banon]

59. Bingo!

So, that statement standing alone could be viewed as "true" . LOL!

[madokie]

63. I about fell out of my chair laughing so hard

I'm getting too old to put up with shit like that but I have to admit it was funny as hell. LOL

[2banon]

75. I'm getting too old as well.

my patience and tolerance for denial, cognitive dissonance, (or other cognitive challenges) is often tested here. Thankfully I wasn't drinking coffee when I came across that one.

[Aerows]

39. You said it! I'm sick of attacks

if you can't stand on issues, you might as well campaign on Fox News.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

53. She was mean to Obama but then she lost

[madokie]

62. Yes we have choice now

Bernie is the real deal and Bernie is going to win this election hands down.

[lewebley3]

83. That is nonsense: Everyone knows where Hillary stands on issues:

Hillary's been addressing issues for 26 years on the national
stage, she has answer question after question.

Its Bernie' career in politics that just started when he announced
to run: He is the unknown, he is the one without accomplishments,
after talking for years in the Senate.

We don't know if he has any political skills, he worked for a small state,
620,000 95% white, and mostly liberals.

I have listened to him for years on Tom Hartman, Sanders never impressed
me, but is he is a nice man

[sabrina 1]

85. Yes, we do know where she stands, especially on economic and Foreign Policy

issues which is why she is facing a real challenge, when just months ago we were told she was inevitable. That was ONLY due to the fact that no other candidate was in the race at the time.

Bernie's political career goes back decades and that is his real strength. He has been consistently right on every important issue, regardless of how unpopular it may have been at the time, he voted the right way.

See the Iraq War, the Patriot Act, Marriage Equality, Hillary has been consistently wrong on all those issues, and on Wall St, on the TPP, the list is long.

People once they are introduced to Bernie Sanders AND see his record, me eg, there simply is no other choice of candidate in this race.

Unless of course you supported all those policies, you supported DOMA. I did not and wished we had more like Sanders who could have made this a far better country than it is today if they had had the courage to take the criticisms, he never cared about that, and vote the right way on so many issues.

[lewebley3]

86. Are Crazy: Have you been watching Hillary on the world stage at all!

We lived under a fantastic Clinton ecnomoy, we saw Hillary carry out
Obama's foreign policies. Which she believes in, and worked hard for,
Obama just made history by bring in a Iran deal that took two years,
Hillary supported it, and today Cheers it.


You are willfully being obtuse, Hillary's position are know to most of American,
that is why they trust , support her, and want her to be come President.

Sorry, you can't wish away the great facts about Hillary, she is the most
qualified person to ever run for the Presidency.

Maybe you should do some homework, and then you won't have as many questions

[ieoeja]

90. Obama disavowed himself from Secretary Clinton's remarks on multiple occasions.

I have never heard of a President having to do that with any other Secretary of State more than one time. He had to do do it with her multiple times.

She seems to have actually done some good on the Iranian thing. But overall she ended up being the most embarrasing Secretary of State for an American President in US history.

[daleanime]

51. Yes, she does.....

and what is she counting on to help her?

[sadoldgirl]

5. I for one will be pleased,if she wins

as much as in 2008.

[Jefferson23]

7. Everyone is free to support her, I have no problem with that at all..it's as it should be.

[SunSeeker]

6. He didn't do much of a job selling tax increases to Vermont.

Even though they are the most liberal state in the union, he could not talk Vermont voters into a $3 Billion tax increase to fund their single payer law. He didn't even try. 

Where was Bernie Sanders? 

When single payer was a theory, a campaign talking point, and progressive dream, Bernie Sanders was all in. When the Governor and legislature enacted it into law, Bernie Sanders touted it as a model for the nation:

“If Vermont can pass a strong single-payer system and show it works well, it will not only be enormously important to this state, it will be a model,” Sanders said in 2013. 

Vermont is without a doubt the most liberal state in the union. It is the only state that has single payer healthcare as law. Bernie Sanders was instrumental in fighting for that law. He made lots of speeches advocating it, much as he is doing now running for president. 

But when the time came for the hard work, the difficult task of pushing, cajoling, persuading, 'leading the people' as Sanders likes to say, to get Vermonters and the legislature to accept the necessary tax increases to make single payer a reality, Bernie Sanders was AWOL.

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/27/1397137/-Bernie-Sanders-Single-Payer-Vermont

[Jefferson23]

8. Analysis by brooklynbadboy? I don't think so.

If single payer is not fought for on the national level, I'm not sure the states will succeed.

[SunSeeker]

9. He was summarizing articles he cited from The Hill, Burlington Free Press, and Boston Globe

They note that Bernie has moved on, now touting single payer nationally. But they acknowledge that the failure to get single payer in Vermont has set back the single payer cause, giving ammunition to the anti-single payer forces.

“If Vermont can pass a strong single-payer system and show it works well, it will not only be enormously important to this state, it will be a model,” Sanders said in 2013.

Instead, the plan has fizzled. The 2011 bill did not set out the details of how to pay for the plan. In December of last year, facing the need for an 11.5 percent tax on all Vermont businesses, and personal income tax hikes of up to 9.5 percent in order to pay for the plan, Shumlin called it off.
...
Bertram Johnson, a professor of political science at Middlebury College in Vermont, said that while the state’s experience is at least somewhat different because of its small size, “I don't think that will stop this from being a potent example for anti-single payer forces.

“With Democratic supermajorities in both the House and Senate and a Democratic governor [who was supportive], it's a disappointment for single-payer advocates,” he added.
...
Henry Aaron, a healthcare expert at the Brookings Institution in Washington, said that if the plan did not work in liberal Vermont, it is unlikely to pass muster in other states.

"If you wanted to pick a state where the politics were more favorable, you would be hard pressed to find a better one," he said.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/232848-sanders-puts-brave-face-on-single-payer-troubles

And there's the Burlington Free Press, which noted nobody could come up with a plan (not even Bernie):

Shumlin said he had asked his health care team for alternative designs, but no one could come up with a plan to offer quality coverage at an affordable cost.

"The bottom line is that, as we completed the financing modeling in the last several days, it became clear that the risk of economic shock is too high at this time to offer a plan I can responsibly support for passage in the Legislature," the governor said.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/local/2014/12/17/shumlin-right-time-single-payer/20547557/

And where was Bernie in this picture the Boston Globe ran of single payer advocates demonstrating against the abandonment of single payer in Vermont due to high costs?


Demonstrators gathered on the steps of the State House in Montpelier on Dec. 18 for a rally in favor of single-payer health care, following Governor Peter Shumlin’s decision to pull the plug on Vermont’s single-payer plan.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/01/25/costs-derail-vermont-single-payer-health-plan/VTAEZFGpWvTen0QFahW0pO/story.html


Since you mock the analysis skills of brooklynbadboy, I assume you know better, Jefferson23. Please tell me how Bernie will get us to pay for single payer nationally if he couldn't get the most liberal state in the union to vote itself a 9.5% tax increase to pay for it?

[Jefferson23]

17. I dismissed the analysis due to its nonsensical presumption that Bernie is the main problem

it failed, or he did not care..he went AWOL. Really??

Where is Bernie now? He has moved on with everyone else just like the governor of the state.

I already answered you as to how to begin the process of single payer..the national level.

It is too expensive otherwise, if you're looking for fair analysis look to those who have
been working hard to make that a reality for decades..not brooklynbadboy who appears
to me to be more focused on portraying Bernie as the guy who can't get anything done
and is irresponsible.

One should, imo, think about why states are placed in this position in the first place, why they
try difficult measures...because we live in a political system that is heavily funded my lobbyists
who make the possible close to impossible.

So despite their well intentioned efforts, single payer will take a great deal of time, which
Sanders already has said, but it should be the goal. How will he accomplish anything on these
big issues, again, he has already said he will need the help of the American people to get
behind these initiatives on a grassroots level.

Valuable analysis on Vermont:

The Demise of Vermont's Single-Payer Plan

By John E. McDonough, Dr.P.H., M.P.A.
The New England Journal of Medicine, April 23, 2015

On December 17, 2014, Vermont Governor Peter Shumlin publicly ended his administration's 4-year initiative to develop, enact, and implement a single-payer health care system in his state.

In reality, the Vermont plan was abandoned because of legitimate political considerations.

In many states, legislators continue filing bills to establish state single-payer systems. Because of Vermont's failure, their path is both clearer and more difficult. Any other state considering this path will find obstacles similar to Vermont's.

In the early 1990s, I served as a Massachusetts legislator who took a turn as the state's leading single-payer advocate. After years of failure, I reluctantly concluded that single payer is too heavy a political lift for a state. Though the economic case is compelling, our body politic cares about more than just economics. In 2011, many observers thought that Vermont, a small and progressive state, was the ideal locale in which to try single payer. No more.

At some point, perhaps 5 to 15 years from now, as the size and scope of Medicare, Medicaid, and the ACA subsidy structure balloon far beyond today's larger-than-life levels, our political leaders may discover the inanity of running multiple complex systems to insure different classes of Americans. If advanced by the right leaders at the right time, the logic of consolidation may become glaringly evident and launch us on a new path. If such consolidation is to occur, like it or not, I believe it will happen federally and not in the states — and no time soon.

**

From the audio:

“People who like the state approach refer to how the Canadian health care system started with the adoption of universal coverage for hospital services in the province of Saskatchewan back in the 1940s, and that is the idealized model. I just am unclear, unsure, doubtful how relevant that model is in an advanced developed system like those in the United States and the fifty states at this point.”

John McDonough is a professor of public health practice and director of the Center for Executive and Continuing Professional Education at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

NEJM article and audio: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1501050

****

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2015/april/john-mcdonough-on-vermont%E2%80%99s-single-payer-lesson

[SunSeeker]

20. Bernie "moved on, " like the rest of Vermont's politicians, when the going got tough.

If Bernie decided to "move on" when faced with the hard and politically risky work of raising taxes to pay for single payer, how is he going to deal with this tough issue nationally? Bernie had plenty of grassroots support in Vermont on single payer. I see no evidence that he made any effort to harness it to get the tax passed.

[Jefferson23]

27. Bernie is not the main problem, that was explained to you. Why would the governor take on

the task of trying to sell a tax increase that would be a huge burden? The answer was explained
to you, it is too expensive for the state level and must be fought for on the national level.

Why would there be evidence Bernie was going to make an effort to get the tax increase
passed when the governor decided to forget it?

Thank the lobbyists who have made this near impossible for decades.

[SunSeeker]

28. Why would Bernie lift a finger if the governor gave up you ask?

Because it would have been the right thing to do. Maybe if he had not gone AWOL on this issue, the governor would not have cut and run. Even with a 9.5% tax increase, the people of Vermont would have still saved money on their healthcare by cutting out the insurance company middlemen. There was a good argument to be made, if anyone had the courage to make it. And Bernie had lots of grass roots support, which is what you just posted is what he said is needed get anything done. Well, he had that.

Of course Bernie is not the only cause of the failure of single payer in Vermont, but he (and the rest of Vermont's politicians who feared political risk) were part of the problem.

[Jefferson23]

31. I don't think you appreciate what the governor and his role is in the state, any state for that

matter vs a US Senator. It was too expensive, it was not going to pass..if you're going to
fault the state, it would be for wanting to try and better their people when we all know
what the obstacle really is..money in politics that kept us from having it on the national
level in the first place.

It had nothing to do with a lack of courage, quite the contrary..they tried, it was too
costly and the burden too great for its citizens.

[SunSeeker]

34. No, they didn't try to sell the tax increase. Not at all. Including Bernie.

It was not too expensive. People would have saved money overall. Yet no one tried to defend the tax except for the grass roots. But it was too "expensive" a risk for any career politician, I'll grant you that.

[Jefferson23]

37. There is a grave difference of opinion which I offered you by the people who have tried

to get single payer forever.

I believe we have taken this as far as we can...we disagree on how viable that tax
burden would have been.

I am sure we stand in agreement we all need to fight for a national single payer system.

[SunSeeker]

40. There was no "grave difference of opinion" among single payer advocates that it made economic sense.

In the analysis you offered by Dr. McDonough (your post 17), he said,

In reality, the Vermont plan was abandoned because of legitimate political considerations.
...

Though the economic case is compelling, our body politic cares about more than just economics.

I totally agree with him.

[Jefferson23]

41. That would only be true if you remove, which you did, the remainder of his opinion. n/t

[SunSeeker]

42. His opinion did not change.

The remainder of his analysis explained why it became too politically difficult.

[Jefferson23]

44. Yes, because of the cost burden...a very real reality he recognizes. n/t

[SunSeeker]

56. McDonough never said the "cost burden" of single payer was too high. Just the politics.

Yes, we're talking big numbers, but they would have been a benefit, not a burden, to the average citizen of Vermont. Total healthcare costs would have gone down for individuals. McDonough said it made economic sense, just that it turned out to be much politically harder than anyone predicted.

Please stop disparaging Vermont single payer as being too much of a "cost burden." It is not. It was just that raising taxes to pay for it was too much of a political burden for Bernie Sanders and the rest of Vermont's politicians.

[Jefferson23]

57. No that is what you're doing, doubling down when anyone who can read his analysis could

acknowledge except for you and the inept OP you put up to bash Sanders in the first place.

You keep relying on disparaging Sanders when it is the governor of the state who runs the state, not
Bernie.

There is a reason McDonough used the language..legitimate to describe the reasons it failed.

[SunSeeker]

60. Yes, fearing you'll get voted out for raising taxes is a "legitimate" political concern.

But blaming it on single payer being too much of a "cost burden" is not. Dr. McDonough recounted the sad lesson that even though the economics made sense, the politics did not. Bernie appears to agree with him, as any politician would.

It is easy to give lip service to our ideals, but putting them into practice is another matter. Bernie definitely talks a good talk, but when it came time to walk the walk on single payer, he ran.

Until we get politicians willing to risk their political careers to give us single payer, we will not get it. And Bernie has shown he will not risk his political career for single payer.

[Jefferson23]

61. Your spin is absurd, and again the idea the governor rejected it when they all wanted it should

tell you something. But then that would get in the way of your empty rhetoric about Sanders
and courage.

[SunSeeker]

64. Again, what did he do/say to try to convince people to go for the 9.5% tax?

He could have gone on radio shows and held rallies--like he did in promoting the Vermont single payer law.

A 9.5% tax increase may have been a tough sell, but not if you told people the facts and put yourself out there showing you were willing to risk your political life for this.

He could have gone out and educated people about democratic socialism, as he was uniquely suited to do, being a democratic socialist. He could have explained that yes you will pay much higher taxes, but will get much more for your buck too. So, instead of paying $1,000 a month to an insurance company for healthcare, you pay $500 a month in taxes for that same healthcare. Instead, he went silent, and our chance to get Vermont single payer and have it serve as a model for the US died. But Bernie did survive politically, so there's that...

[Jefferson23]

65. He survived, so there's that? I don't see how you legitimately lay the blame on Benrie.

Funny how the OP doesn't mention him at all, either. The governor believed after
looking at the numbers he could not go forward..why is this so hard for you to
understand? They had Democratic super majorities in both the House and Senate with a Democratic
governor on board but it's Sanders failure?

The OP also highlights these concerns, ignored by you:

“People who like the state approach refer to how the Canadian health care system started with the adoption of universal coverage for hospital services in the province of Saskatchewan back in the 1940s, and that is the idealized model. I just am unclear, unsure, doubtful how relevant that model is in an advanced developed system like those in the United States and the fifty states at this point.” ( end )

If you had approached this issue without the desire to make Sanders look like
a bad guy you could have learned something, he has not given up. You're
adding to your absurd claims that it is Sanders that has screwed it up for
the country too..incredible, that is what your opinion amounts to, not
credible.

[SunSeeker]

66. Learn what? Your lie that single payer was too much of a "cost burden" for Vermont?

That quoted passage does not support your assertion. Dr. McDonough just recognized, as did the politicians like Bernie, that Americans have been forking over money to insurance companies for their healthcare for so long now that it has become the natural state of things in the US. It is entrenched. Americans are used to paying big bucks to insurance companies for healthcare; they’re not used to paying European style taxes.

[Jefferson23]

67. The governor lied? Go argue with yourself or with that guy who wrote the OP you posted.

You're intentionally obtuse on the issue..but bash Bernie Sanders for it regardless.

[SunSeeker]

68. What are you talking about? YOU posted the OP, not me.

I didn't say the governor lied. I said you lied when you tried to characterize Dr. McDonough's analysis as finding that Vermont single payer was too much of a "cost burden."

[Jefferson23]

69. The governor stated the figures, McDonough does not call him a liar. You're fast and loose with

facts and analysis that is derived for nefarious purposes by the hack you brought to this thread.
Believing it because it blamed Sanders, not because he made a compelling case.
There were no lies expressed to you by me.

You neglect to address the essence of McDonough's OP because it wrecks your ability to blame Sanders.
You doubled down and went further to blame Bernie not only for the failure of single payer in
Vermont, but for the consequences the entire country will pay for that failure and you believe that is
a credible claim..unreal. Yea, they all wanted it but somehow, it was Bernie not being a good enough
advocate..amazing slacker, that Bernie.

Have a great night..single payer will become a reality without your rhetoric.

[SunSeeker]

70. The Governor's figures do not prove single payer makes no economic sense.

Rather, the Governor said we are talking big increases in taxes (duh) and that it will double the state budget (so? It's not a problem if the taxes cover it). Then he acknowledged that Vermont still has not completely recovered from the recession and businesses are objecting to any increase in taxes (when are they not?). The Governor no doubt feared that if the Vermont economy faltered in any way, single payer would get the blame--and he would get the blame. I'm guessing Bernie felt the same way, hence his silence. And who wants to be known as the Governor --or the Senator--from the state that passed the biggest tax increase in the country?

How am I playing fast and loose with the facts? As soon as you said the DailyKos blogger, who I do not know and am not familiar with, was of suspect reputation, I went to the news articles he was relying on, and you do not dispute those articles. I think his analysis on this issue was spot on. That is all I cited him for. Certainly the journalists who wrote the cited articles are not "hacks."

The "essence" of McDonough's analysis does not "wreck" my assertion that Bernie was AWOL when it came to the tax hike, which is what I was asserting. I never said the loss of Vermont single payer was all Bernie's fault. But he certainly did nothing to help, so he does share blame. Your OP suggested that Bernie would fight the tough battles to raise taxes to fund important programs. Bernie's lack of effort for the Vermont single payer tax indicates that may not be the case.

I too hope we get single payer one day, but your rhetoric that single payer is a "cost burden" is counterproductive to that happening.

[Jefferson23]

74. For crying out loud, the costs are what the governor used to deicde to

put it aside. How easy for you to dismiss that figure for him with a duh, he had to raise
taxes when at the same time he has to spend political capital he evidently did not believe
he had and the costs were high....the governor not Bernie decided not to risk it.

Why would voter turn out be so low for this governor who won a third term by a thin
margin? Yet you concentrate on Bernie, the activists there do not. He is not as progressive
as Sanders, you might want to think about that and the financial feasibility was definitely
part of why the governor put it aside. I don't know who labor would like to see
run for governor next time and I also haven't read from Vermont activists that they're
looking to blame Bernie directly nor indirectly for the failure.

snip* As a result, the popularity of Green Mountain Care is not what it was even a year ago. Pollsters working for the Vermont NEA found 55 percent of those surveyed in favor of the concept then, while 42 percent were opposed. A slight majority remained in favor even if implementation required, as it would, a large tax increase to capture health care system revenue currently coming, in myriad forms, from individuals and employers, in both the private and public sector.

After the recent flurry of negative publicity about Green Mountain Care—much of it generated by Shumlin’s own disputed cost estimates— 64-percent of Vermonters polled in February said they supported the governor’s new position, only 20 percent were opposed, and 10 percent were unsure. Even a majority of Democrats polled said they favored his abandonment of single payer, for the time being.
http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/17871/vermont_activists_battle_democratic_governor_for_single_payer_health_care

The OP's your hack used, do not demonstrate in the slightest that Bernie was AWOL
but your continued reliance on asking why isn't Bernie in the photo is pathetic.
Your assertions about Bernie are based on poor speculation. He is the one person in
the state who would have benefited politically more than any other had it succeeded.
He is the one running for president, and to suggest he was AWOL or some slacker is
complete bullshit.

[SunSeeker]

76. But Vermont single payer was not a "cost burden." People would have saved money overall.

Yes, they were facing eye-popping numbers in terms of taxes, and the politicians lost their nerve. They no doubt were aware of those polls you cite. So they didn't even try to convince the public. Bernie was not running for the nomination for President last year. He was not too busy to at least issue a statement supporting the tax. Yet he did not.

I can't believe I am having to defend the cost benefits of single payer with a fellow DUer.

[Jefferson23]

78. You're not defending the cost benefits of single payer to me, you're building on your

failed attempt to demonstrate Sanders had a role in the failure.

They did not try, you're sticking with that nonsense and blaming Bernie, although
no activists from Vermont are. No rational reason to assign blame to him.

Keep on digging that hole.

[SunSeeker]

79. Again, why no word of support from Bernie, Vermont's single payer former champion?

Is it not '"rational" to at least expect a statement of support for the 9.5% tax from him? Yeah, I get that tax increases are politically toxic in our country, but your OP suggests Bernie is not like other politicians.

[Jefferson23]

80. No and again, your hack did not demonstrate there was no support from Bernie.

It is ludicrous to even suggest it, but you went with it regardless. Bernie Sanders
is not the governor of Vermont. The reasons it failed were all spelled out and yet
you continue to assign blame to him based on nonsense. Even those activists
within Vermont who were upset don't hold him responsible.

Keep digging, I am done here..be my guest and have the last word.

[SunSeeker]

89. You do not dispute that Bernie offered no statement in support of the single payer tax.

I have asked several folks on this thread and no one has been able to offer anything Bernie did to support the tax. Maybe that DailyKos poster is a hack, but he was right on this issue.

[Aerows]

48. I have to ask -

what exactly and who exactly are you arguing for/against ?

[SunSeeker]

50. I'm disagreeing with the OP that Bernie would be a champion of raising taxes.

He certainly shied away from it in Vermont, and for purely political reasons.

[hootinholler]

10. Maybe it's because his job as a US Senator

Is to make sure everything that happens at home works the way he wants it to and if it doesn't he's a total failure.

That's not his job as a Senator? Well, then I guess being a strong advocate for single payer will have to suffice. It sounds to me like he was a strong advocate.

[SunSeeker]

16. What did he do to advocate for funding of single payer in Vermont?

See post 9.

[sabrina 1]

12. If I wanted to make a point, I would not use DK's brooklynbadboy to do it with.

As the comments point out, this is a bad 'hactivist' job! You might want to read some of the INFORMED comments, BBB is not known for 'accuracy', pointing out the FACTS in Vt. and tearing apart this feeble attempt to personally attack Bernie.

But as some of the commenters there noted, if this is going to be the best the opposition can do, so easily refuted with FACTS, Bernie has nothing at all to worry about, and as other commenters there stated, it appears the opposition is so worried they are producing non-fact based nonsense like this, leaving a huge opening for Bernie to drive right through.

Maybe you're not familiar with DK's members, this particular character has earned himself the rep he has there.

[SunSeeker]

15. See post 9 above. What facts do you have that Bernie fought for that 9.5% tax?

The blogger did cite The Hill, Boston Globe and a Vermont paper, and I posted excerpts in post 9.

[Le Taz Hot]

29. brooklynbadboy

is generally considered an internet hack on DK. He's largely laughed at. And for good reason.

[SunSeeker]

71. Don't know the guy, but how is his analysis wrong in this instance?

What did Bernie do to support the 9.5 % tax to pay for single payer?

[Le Taz Hot]

73. It's long been a policy of mine

to never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it only frustrates the pig. Know what I mean, there, Sparky?

[SunSeeker]

77. I see. You've got nothing but insults. nt

[artislife]

13. Didn't see this so started new thread but

I was stunned by how even keeled the article was. No frothing at the mouth.


The shift is in!

[Jefferson23]

18. I liked it too..exciting stuff. n/t

[Aerows]

32. Enthusiasm for President Sanders

is building.

Try it on for size. President Sanders.

We can make it happen, and I intend to do my damnedest.

Hillary was my candidate in 2008. Bernie Sanders is my candidate for 2016.

[Aerows]

30. I'm in Mississippi

and even my hair dresser heard how great of a President he would make.

I will evangelize for Bernie Sanders until I run out of people, and then I'll find some more.

I'm not shitting you - I am in the South, and we are going to vote for Bernie Sanders. I'll drag everybody in the neighborhood to the polls if I have to.

[Jefferson23]

33. That is fantastic to hear. I believe we have a real shot at it too.

As you say, stay focused, work hard.

[Aerows]

36. It's never hard work

if you are doing what you believe in.

[artislife]

35. Stay strong

I have it easy, I live near Seattle. They already voted in a "Socialist" and got a $15 minimum wage!

[Aerows]

38. And then the economy

that couldn't bear a $15/hr wage ... got an upswing.

Surprise, surprise.


People being able to afford your offerings means you sell more of them.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

55. I wear my Bernie teeshirt everywhere

good response

[2banon]

43. "we're going to drive turnout up and when we do that we win."

Exactly, Sir.

[Aerows]

47. I am doing my part down here in the south

If I can drive two people to the polls, I can get another six interested enough to vote!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

54. We've got Facebook pages, Twitter - you name it

grassroots groups are sprouting up everywhere!

[2banon]

58. That's how it's done!

I have kin in Biloxi, very very RW. You just gave me an injection of hope and enthusiasm, thank you for all your good work!

[LWolf]

91. And he's well on the way to doing just that. nt