Do you think that some white men feel electing a woman President

[boston bean]

is a direct attack on issues that are important to them.

ie, a woman president just may have different priorities than propping up a hierarchy that keeps white men at the top of the scale in terms of wage earners, positions of power, etc.

Do you think this is why Obama did less well with white men as well? A fear that something would be taken away from them?

If it is true, I wish men would see that women/minorities are not the enemy and that we just want to be equal to them, not take away from them.

[HassleCat]

1. Men are likeChristians with Christmas

Christians were accustomed to taking over every square inch of everything to display their Christmas messages about the baby Jesus, wise men, mangers, etc. When they were forced to back off, they got al pouty and complained about a war on Christians and Christmas. Same thing with men. They used to have all the good stuff all to themselves. They miss the ability to keep it all locked up and deny access to others. Like the Christians, some of them get all mopey and resentful, form men's rights groups, and so on.

[HFRN]

2. from one of her supporters, I classify that as a 'straw man' (sorry, 'straw person') arguement

from one of her supporters -> you have her logo on your signature

that is NOT the issue, IMO that most of her detractors are concerned about - it's her corporatism that bothers most - and for those who support Sanders, why wouldn't a bigot be concerned about a Jew? you did say this was about minorities, didn't you? (a quote from you, below)

'If it is true, I wish men would see that women/minorities are not the enemy'

and I think the President best spoke to this issue (paraphrasing) 'some vote against me because I am AA, but some vote for me for the same reason'

I think that's true here as well - and while I think it's wrong to vote against her for that, it's just as wrong to vote FOR her on that one reason as well

it's best president, period, that matters - anything else, you trivialize the citizen

[boston bean]

7. So, because I support Hillary and I have a signature line showing that,

the question is null and void.

Thanks for the stimulating insight.

[HFRN]

9. it's not null and void, but it is biased

this time, the 'black and white/all or nothing' fallacy

you're really on a roll, with the logical fallacies

your first post 'straw man'

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

the second 'false dilemma'

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

[boston bean]

11. You seem to have an issue with the post.

alert if it bothers you.

[HFRN]

13. another 'false dilemma'

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/false-dilemma.html

[boston bean]

14. For you maybe. nt

[HFRN]

15. for anyone trained in logic nt

[boston bean]

18. Like I said, for you maybe. nt

[HFRN]

19. lol, not a bad comeback

i'll give you that

(although it is wrong)

[BooScout]

16. By that criteria so is yours.....

By the fact that your favorite forum is the Bernie forum. Pot meet kettle.

[HFRN]

17. that's actually the 'begging the question' fallacy

presupposing that because I prefer a particular candidate, that I use fallacies to do it

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

[rock]

35. "... it is biased..."

I beg to differ! I for one support both Bernie and Hillary, at least I try to, except the Bernie supporters see my Hillary icon and start slavering at the mouth, sorta like you did with Boston Bean.

[HFRN]

36. 'except the Bernie supporters see my Hillary icon and start slavering at the mouth'

your icon with just a picture is not the same as her 2 official campaign logos. People here had FDR icons, I dont automatically assume that they cast a vote for him. you made a hasty generalization

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

'the Bernie supporters see my Hillary icon and start slavering at the mouth'

since you said 'the' rather than 'some', I'm going to cite 'guilt by association'

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/guilt-by-association.html

and 'slavering at the mouth' is an example of 'appeal to ridicule' fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html

[rock]

38. So, you're not going to defend yourself?

Eh?

[HFRN]

42. impeaching the fallacies of the accusation

precludes the need to defend myself

[rock]

43. So, "No".

Gotcha.

[Thinkingabout]

3. The idea of women earning on the same level of men should not be a problem for men.

I know there are biased opinions men have, many have evolved, worked with men for many years and had actions against me just because I was a woman and likewise the majority of my co-workers saw me as just another co-worker. Yes, some thought women should do the cleaning and picking up after them but I did not accept the role, they had to clean up after themselves just as I did.

I am thinking men will look at her stand on the issues and judge them for what they are. We have some really great guys right here who have opened their hearts and minds to Hillary and are supporting Hillary.

[bobbobbins01]

4. Yes, but they're probably not on this side of the political spectrum.

I would say the further right you go, the more that comes in to play. Sexism and racism definitely play a part in how people vote, but I it isn't much of an problem with democrats or progressives(not saying it doesn't exist for them, its just minimal).

[marym625]

5. But, in reality,

Us being "equal" would take away from them. We can't have equality with them in charge of everything. With wage equality, equality in creating and passing laws, enforcing those laws, promotions, etc etc, they do lose control.

You can't balance the scale just by adding to, or taking away from, one side. Not with gaining something, or losing something, you're weighing.

Adding that; I really don't care how a few (and I believe it's a minority) of white men are afraid of losing. Tough shit.
I want a female President. Desperately. But not Hillary Clinton. Sorry

[BooScout]

6. Of course they do....

It's hard for some to get over 1000s of years of being on top and keeping half the population down and less than equal.

[BlueJazz]

8. Take any segment of the populace and there's always those that have gender bias.

Most people who have a bit of logical sense realize that help comes from many sources. Those of us who have never understood the Good-ol-boy thing usually ask the question to themselves..(in some form) "Do I really care who throws me the life-preserver when I'm drowning?"

[artislife]

10. I think some men have a problem

with electing a woman. And some women do, too.


I don't think being Jewish is really immune either.

One thing I must say for us, we have shaken the status quo on candidates in these last two election cycles

[restorefreedom]

12. yes and no

i am with bernie on the issues, but i do think you are on to something. but if it makes you feel any better, I think most of the men that would have an issue with Hillary because of her gender would not vote for any Democratic candidate.

[Scuba]

20. This white man could care less about her gender (or race), but I don't like her policies.

[ibegurpard]

21. nope

Just not THIS woman. I would've been all over Elizabeth Warren in a hearbeat.

[progressoid]

22. What about Black men? And Brown Women? And young men? And poor women? And Catholics? And...

They can also see reasons not to support candidate X.

Race, gender, ethnicity, wealth, religion, etc. It all plays a factor to some degree.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Barack Obama lost white men by 27% in 2012./nt

[jeff47]

31. How'd Kerry do?

Well, he lost white men by 25%.

So...within the margin of error of Obama 2012. Must be because Obama's black.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Precisely

Barack Obama has proven we can win presidential elections without him.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

24. Margaret Thatcher etc.

I don't know what the breakdown of votes were when Margaret Thatcher was elected but I should imagine greedy white British men were hoping that they were going to make even more money with her as prime minister.

[Lisa D]

25. Yes, for some.

Also, notice the selective outrage over Hillary's speaking fee? I'm sure there are men who charge as much or more for a speech, but we don't hear about them, do we?

How dare a woman know her own worth as a speaker!

[jeff47]

28. If Bill was running again, I'd be complaining about his much higher speaking fee.

But currently there is only one Democratic candidate who has a very large speaking fee who is running in 2016. The fact that she's a woman doesn't make her fee disappear.

[Jim Lane]

26. No. I don't think it's based on issues.

There are some voters (mainly older men but also including some young people and women) who don't feel comfortable with the idea of a woman as Commander in Chief because it's just not what they're used to. They can't picture a woman being our side's representative across the table from Putin. Some lifelong Democratic men would vote straight Democratic except for casting no vote for President if our nominee is a woman.

The flip side is that some voters (mainly women) who are ideologically on the right would disagree with Clinton on the issues but would vote for her solely to shatter the glass ceiling.

[jeff47]

27. The number that would vote D but not for a woman is not very large.

White men don't vote D as much as other races or women.

[davidpdx]

29. Nope, absolutely not

It has nothing to do with attacking the issues I support. It has to do whether the issues the candidate supports (regardless of race, gender, religion, etc.) agree with my own views. A basic example: I am obviously not going to vote for someone who is pro-life because I am pro-choice.

I fully support women's issues including paid family, subsidized daycare, better funding for birth control, wage equality, etc. etc.

In terms of the issue of VOTING for a women president I have no problem with that. Here is the disclaimer: I will only vote for a candidate that I believe will be the best president. So that doesn't mean "oh this candidate is a woman, I'm going to automatically vote for her." The same thing for race, religion, or anything else. If I truly didn't think Obama was going to be the president we needed I wouldn't have supported him.

[TheBlackAdder]

30. Having taken a 'Women in Politics' course last year, an equal amount of women are threatened.

.


As odd as it sounds, the evangelical female base of the conservative party are just as opposed to a woman as chief executive.


Not only is the position seen as gender rolled, but the evangelicals who were against the ERA amount to almost half of the eligible female voters. They hold traditional values including religious belief that a woman should be subservient to a man. This is what made the whole Michelle Bachmann thing such a contradiction.


Phyllis Schlafly, perhaps the most influential feminist politician (feminism also includes conservative beliefs), is a hypocrite. She tried to run for state office twice, before taking up the moral majority fight against the ERA. While she pontificated that women should be at home, she was politically active, leaving her husband at home. She mobilized a political base in conservative woman that helped to usher in Ronald Reagan and create the Moral Majority influence of the 80s and 90s. If you were to study her, you would be amazed at how she outmaneuvered liberal feminists to defeat the ERA.


===


So, yes. There will be a faction of males who will vote against a woman, just because she is a woman.

But, there are almost an equal number of women who will do the same thing.


===


Note: I did not add race into this equation, because that adds another dynamic to the equation.

[Lucky Luciano]

32. How much of the vitriol you see directed at Hillary would also be ...

...directed at Warren in your view?

I think the Bernie people would prefer Warren over Hillary by a landslide.

In other words, if Bernie wasn't running and Warren was, I believe you would still see equivalent amounts of Hillary hate here...and Warren love.

[Sheepshank]

34. I do think there is an undercurrent of *some* males protecting their presumed assets

I live in Utah...pretty mysoginistic all by itself. I work in local Gov't and have seen and experienced suppression of women's advancement to higher administrative roles in the workplace. I have heard directly from said white men that women take up too many mens jobs and there is a reason men must be paid more, and that is to ensure that men are the breadwinners in the family and women are discouraged from working. My follow up harassment complaint was taken seriously.

Since I do believe that Obama reconized and shone a bright light on race inequality, it is not too difficult to see that Hillary will bring to the forefront inequality with women's issues. Some of the men I work with are very likley to be concerned over that bright light.

I do think there is one other issue that bothers the crap out of the white, religious, Republican males (here, anyway). That is the issue of abortion rights, I *know* they feel that a lliberal woman in the WH will be pressing this issue much more that they feel she has the right to do.

[morningfog]

37. This has nothing to do with the Democratic Primaries.

[Comrade Grumpy]

39. You are really throwing some stink bombs today.

[whatchamacallit]

40. I'm confused. Is it your intention to strictly focus on the white subset of sexists

or are you implying that none other exist?

[LWolf]

41. Yes.

And yes.

Not all white men, of course, but still too many.

I hope we elect a woman in my lifetime. As a matter of fact, I've voted for a woman for president 3 different times.

When it happens, I want it to be a woman whose policies I can support.

That won't be this time around, since there isn't one running. I'm hoping for a great woman as VP in '16. I'd love Warren. Or Barbara Lee. There are more.