2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Sanders Cannot Save US
September 2001. After thousands of people are killed in the World Trade Center and Pentagon, President George Bush and Congress declared war on Afghanistan. Sanders joined the bandwagon and voted to adopt the joint resolution that authorized the President to use the United States Armed Forces against anyone involved with the attacks of September 11th, 2001 and any nation that harbors these individuals. In October 2002, after two years of war on the people of Afghanistan and a series of lies and misinformation, Congress and the White House (with help from Great Britain and a couple other governments) ignored the United Nations and world opinion and invaded Iraq. While Sanders voted against the original authorization to use military force against Iraq, he followed that vote with several subsequent votes authorizing funding of that war and the debacle in Afghanistan. The other piece of legislation passed that long ago September was the PATRIOT Act. Like the vote that sent troops to Afghanistan, that legislation changed the US forever. To his credit, Sanders voted against the original PATRIOT Act legislation and attempted to curtail its effect in subsequent votes. However, in 2006, he voted Yea on legislation that made the remaining fourteen provisions of the Patriot Act permanent and extended the authority of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to conduct roving wiretaps and access certain business records through December 31, 2009. In a similar vein, Sanders voted against the original legislation that created the Department of Homeland Security, but by 2006 he had joined the majority of Congress in passing continued funding of that agency.
In 2008, Sanders was elected to the Senate. This transition gave Bernie a salary increase with potentially even less power than that he had in the House. His voting record changed little: voting for some war authorization funds while opposing others; funding intelligence operations while voting to remove immunity for communications companies involved in government surveillance; supporting contraception funding and funding for childrens health insurance programs; and opposing John Brennans appointment to head the CIA while supporting Chuck Hagels appointment as Secretary of Defense. He continued authorizing grants and laons to Israel, even after Israel bombed Gaza, attacked the Mavi Marmara and supported illegal settlements in the West Bank. Most recently, Sanders joined ninety-seven other Senators and approved a $1 billion aid package to the coup government in Ukraine, a package that (when combined with International Monetary Fund loans) will most certainly further impoverish Ukrainian working people.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/27/bernie-sanders-cannot-save-us/
LWolf
(46,179 posts)He says it just about every time I listen to him speak.
No POTUS can "save" the U.S..
daleanime
(17,796 posts)surprising how often that happens.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)of our asses and save ourselves, and he is absolutely right.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)But I think it is a major mistake to see any presidential candidate, president, or politician more generally as a savior. The presidency is a limited constitutional office that has to work with congress to enact any legislation. Nothing major domestically can be done absent congressional approval. Additionally, our system is set up to resist change and to be remarkably, if not intractably, stable. The founders deliberately distanced government from the people. Even the perfect president can only do so much, which is to say not that much at all.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)She has flip-flopped on more things than a vacation at Disney World.
There is a reason why there is a trust deficit with the public that don't live in New York and New England. We don't trust her, and honestly, plenty in New England, see VT, don't trust her either.
"She'll sell us out to Wall Street the second she can" is the feeling.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)"Hillary is great, but we can't tell you why!"
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The flip flop part, I mean.
villager
(26,001 posts)And there's a question about whether America, as presently constituted, will ever be up to the task.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Bernie Sanders was on the side of the angels.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)regarding war, that Bernie is not perfect.
There are parts of his record that are the antipathy of what they are saying it is.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I also think he has the Israel/Palestine situation about right.
loveallserveall
(11 posts)Well said DemocratSinceBirth.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)he just avoids getting hoodwinked into voting for war
Defunding an existing war would be stupid.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)My evaluations of each of the situations in the article were identical to his.
It was very reassuring to me.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)the war machine or anything like that. Cause that happened in the wars he actually voted for.
It is only about the Iraq War, which Sanders voted to fund and that Hillary voted reluctantly for. If he was so anti war and against that, he should have voted against it. He could have taken a principled stand. His vote would not have mattered.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)He intervened to stop a pointless war and brought peace to that region.
There were good reasons to go into Afghanistan, Bush just bungled it.
Iraq, a pointless war, and it was obvious to me that the Bush Administration was lying.
Obvious to Bernie too.
Once they started it, there was no going back....de-funding a an ongoing war is just foolish.
Bernie appears to be against stupid wars like Vietnam and Iraq.
Sometimes war is necessary.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)I myself fall into that as well.
You are right not everything is so cut and dried is it?
So, now that we have given up on the accepting only perfection, maybe we can move on from the Hillary is a war hawk meme.
She isn't.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)If she wins the primary, I'll vote for her. Until then?
Hell no, she isn't my candidate. I #feelthebern.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)I don't view Hillary as a war hawk.
I just can't understand why anyone (who was a Democrat) went along with Bush.
From my far vantage point, I could see that the case for war was cobbled together with string and wax paper. Before they voted, using just the information I found on the internet.....and everything that I read at that time turned out to be true.
29 Democratic Senators voted for it, not just Hillary......I may never understand it.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Who fucked up Afghanistan. If that is what we are going to use to measure, Bernie deserves to be measured by it as well, I guess.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)you must be very successful.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)I'm your average person.
But, really it is not a defense of Hillary. I was just wishing to point out that some of the criticisms we see here from person who defend Bernie are very similar to those of Hillary supporters.
It's not an all or nothing. There are nuances, and I'm tired of having the war meme thrown in my face, when others just brush off others who did very similar, with no consequence.
Call it a sense of fairness.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)I'll try to keep that in mind as log into DU......
Aerows
(39,961 posts)He most certainly is the right leader for our nation in these times.
See, this is how you detonate a political campaign. Demote the opposition to toddlers that just need to be guided in the right direction.
This is EXACTLY the attitude that you do not use to win a campaign.
This "know-it-all" air you have going on is hurting more than it is helping, boston bean.
Stop it.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)against anyone who had a hand in or was harboring those who committed 9/11.
So, there is that, and his support for Kosovo. He is not an anti war candidate.
Plus he votes immediately to fund these wars.
frylock
(34,825 posts)well played.
Autumn
(45,084 posts)the attacks of September 11th, 2001 and harbored no individuals that did so? That's kind of a big fucking difference right there.
You most likely won't get a reply so I figured I'd answer the question. It seems to be all the rage for someone else to respond for another poster.
Response to frylock (Reply #26)
Aerows This message was self-deleted by its author.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)will keep waiting for that to happen.
SunSeeker
(51,557 posts)Once we drove out the Serbs with our 1999 bombing campaign, Kosovo Albanians (who are Muslim) ethnically cleansed Kosovo of Jews, Roma and most of its Christians. The NATO occupation of Kosovo did not end ethnic cleansing. Kosovo can be called a lot of things right now. "Liberated" is not one of them.
Bloody revenge is not unusual after civil wars, but these crimes occurred on the Wests watch. The Council of Europe admitted that the allied intervention had led to numerous human rights violations and [had] not produced lasting solutions for the underlying problems.
Nothing changed with the territorys new leadership, which emerged from the Kosovo Liberation Army and was dogged by claims of war crimes and criminality. The Council of Europe called the KLA a mafia-like organization. Former international prosecutor Carla Del Ponte publicized allegations that the group had murdered civilian captives and sold their organs. The European Union recently launched a new investigation of these charges after five Kosovars were convicted of running an organ-trafficking operation.
Read more at http://spectator.org/articles/55551/delivering-serbs-wolves
eridani
(51,907 posts)The one you promoted was the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from the Krajina.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)We need to progress at a faster rate than we regress.
All of our big three will accomplish that. We can really make ground if we gain in the house and senate.
CTBlueboy
(154 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)It was our inaction in Bosnia, and the horror of Srebrenica (which you've certainly been re-living in the news of late) that led many in the West (notably Susan Sontag) to call for action against Serbian aggression and atrocities in Kosovo.
I don't find that a stain on Sanders' credibility at all.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Hillary Clinton sure as fuck can't.
Anything is better than Hillary. If we are forced to live in a least-worst system, Bernie is certainly the Democratic party's answer! Let's remember: Hillary voted FOR WAR IN IRAQ. This is the most egregious blunder any politician can make. In my book, it disqualifies her from being the nominee.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)Used "The Weekly Standard" to prove their anti-Bernie point. That didn't used to be allowed on DU but I guess times change.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)thats the definition of the username anyway. She didn't bother posting the New Yorker's piece on the alleged event. Instead, she chose a Weekly Standard writer's column. I looked this guy up, and found that he dedicated part of his day pimping James O'Keefe's latest smear against Planned Parenthood on Twitter.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)So this is a pointless fail.
ruffburr
(1,190 posts)Bad because he voted against the war in Iraq but once it was passed anyway Bernie voted to fund the soldiers sent to fight, that's what I get out of this article, What a crock of crap.
mike_c
(36,281 posts)eom
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)This author cracks me up: Senator Sanders is often called a socialist in the mainstream and progressive media. While this may have been true once, it would be hard for even the most generous reader of Karl Marx to honestly say this was still the case.
Right, because if he was that would be swaying more Americans to see him as mainstream? lol
Sanders has a past of compromises, a past of decisions that will not line up with the very definition
of whatever form of socialism people are attacking him for.
His record, compared to many others, is not a neoliberal nightmare and he is calling for a political
revolution due to the fact that we're heading further and further away from achieving our objectives..
our system has politicians indebted to those with more money. Funny how the author does not want
to talk about that...or so it seems.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)it damns her. It's like saying he's not qualified because he's been a Senator so it should be Clinton. It's like saying Hillary is bad because she was a Goldwater Girl so we should vote for Warren who was a Republican for 30 years, a Reagan/Bush Woman. Can't ding the other for what you do too.
Then there is the source, counterpunch, which loathes Hillary. So again, if he's damned, she's damned twice by them. No need to even look for examples.
Not wise tactics.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Counterpunch does indeed loathe Hillary, but they are obviously much further left than you to criticize Bernie this way.
This wasn't meant to be a pissing match, but more of an exercise to show that no one is perfect in the regard when it comes to war. Not even Bernie Sanders.
Not Bernie Sanders or Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton.
Double standards is what I see.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)"When millions of people stand up and fight, they win" - Bernie Sanders
Until we stop looking for someone to save us and/or tell us what to do - we will stay stuck exactly where we are, swirling ever closer to the drain as we continue to elect people committed to continuing the status quo.
udbcrzy2
(891 posts)I'm picking the best candidate for me and it's not Hillary, not even close.
JI7
(89,249 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)Light on substance
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)But, hey, welcome to the wacko extreme left!
Anti-imperialists can certainly criticize Sanders for his pro-war votes.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)He tells us exactly what we need to do. And it's not wait around for someone to come rescue us.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Seriously.
artislife
(9,497 posts)of the boards at Bernie Sanders. When we are tired and not able to make more calls for Bernie, we need to watch these two videos to reignite the flames.
Thank you for posting!
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Autumn
(45,084 posts)that sees the needs of the people over the needs of banks and corporation.