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boston bean

(36,221 posts)
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:44 PM Jul 2015

Bernie Sanders Cannot Save US

Two years later, spring of 1999. Bill Clinton was under fire in Congress for his misguided and manipulative dalliances with Monica Lewinsky. The Dayton Accords concerning the growing civil war in Yugoslavia had created the intended scenario, leading Belgrade to insist on its historical right to keep Kosovo under its governance. In response, Washington and other NATO governments began an intensive bombing campaign. Bill Clinton and his war cabinet began an around-the-clock assault on the Serbian people. Liberals and progressives drank the kool-aid and offered their whole hearted support. Bernie Sanders made it clear he was completely on board with the action. Indeed, after antiwar activists in Burlington, Vermont marched through downtown Burlington stopping at the offices of each Senator and ending at Sanders’ office where they staged a sit-in, Bernie instructed his office staff via telephone to call the police and clear the office. A week later at an emergency town meeting on the bombing in Montpelier, Vermont Sanders showed up with a couple staff members and a panel of pro and antiwar speakers. Bernie vehemently defended the bombing and actually told at least two members of the audience to leave if they didn’t like what he was saying.

September 2001. After thousands of people are killed in the World Trade Center and Pentagon, President George Bush and Congress declared war on Afghanistan. Sanders joined the bandwagon and voted to adopt the joint resolution that authorized the President to use the United States Armed Forces against anyone involved with the attacks of September 11th, 2001 and any nation that harbors these individuals. In October 2002, after two years of war on the people of Afghanistan and a series of lies and misinformation, Congress and the White House (with help from Great Britain and a couple other governments) ignored the United Nations and world opinion and invaded Iraq. While Sanders voted against the original authorization to use military force against Iraq, he followed that vote with several subsequent votes authorizing funding of that war and the debacle in Afghanistan. The other piece of legislation passed that long ago September was the PATRIOT Act. Like the vote that sent troops to Afghanistan, that legislation changed the US forever. To his credit, Sanders voted against the original PATRIOT Act legislation and attempted to curtail its effect in subsequent votes. However, in 2006, he voted Yea on legislation that made the remaining fourteen provisions of the Patriot Act permanent and extended the authority of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to conduct “roving wiretaps” and access certain business records through December 31, 2009. In a similar vein, Sanders voted against the original legislation that created the Department of Homeland Security, but by 2006 he had joined the majority of Congress in passing continued funding of that agency.

In 2008, Sanders was elected to the Senate. This transition gave Bernie a salary increase with potentially even less power than that he had in the House. His voting record changed little: voting for some war authorization funds while opposing others; funding intelligence operations while voting to remove immunity for communications companies involved in government surveillance; supporting contraception funding and funding for children’s health insurance programs; and opposing John Brennan’s appointment to head the CIA while supporting Chuck Hagel’s appointment as Secretary of Defense. He continued authorizing grants and laons to Israel, even after Israel bombed Gaza, attacked the Mavi Marmara and supported illegal settlements in the West Bank. Most recently, Sanders joined ninety-seven other Senators and approved a $1 billion aid package to the coup government in Ukraine, a package that (when combined with International Monetary Fund loans) will most certainly further impoverish Ukrainian working people.


http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/27/bernie-sanders-cannot-save-us/


67 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bernie Sanders Cannot Save US (Original Post) boston bean Jul 2015 OP
That's what he keeps saying. LWolf Jul 2015 #1
And he's right.... daleanime Jul 2015 #13
Isn't it? nt LWolf Jul 2015 #15
He wants us to get up off Aerows Jul 2015 #19
Hillary supporters, trying to say Bernie is more like Hillary will not get Hillary to win. Fearless Jul 2015 #2
snore n/t virtualobserver Jul 2015 #3
Your thesis being that Hillary Clinton *can* save us? villager Jul 2015 #4
I can't speak for the OP BainsBane Jul 2015 #11
Hillary is a disaster in the making Aerows Jul 2015 #20
No response, as usual Aerows Jul 2015 #54
Nice turn of phrase shaayecanaan Jul 2015 #59
I agree that it will take *more* than just "who is President" to "save" us in a systemic sense villager Jul 2015 #67
I supported the liberation of Kosovo and the end to ethnic cleansing. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #5
I agree with that. I'm just pointing out to some boston bean Jul 2015 #7
I am an adult. I see people as three dimensional beings and not cookie cutter saints. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #8
Hear..hear !! loveallserveall Jul 2015 #34
I agree with his actions virtualobserver Jul 2015 #9
and, what about this from the link: boston bean Jul 2015 #25
yes, I agree with that - It was the Iraq war that I was opposed to. virtualobserver Jul 2015 #28
So, it's not really about bombing of innocents boston bean Jul 2015 #29
The actions that Bill Clinton took ultimately saved lives. virtualobserver Jul 2015 #37
I see there is lots of excuses for it. boston bean Jul 2015 #38
She's not my candidate to defend. Aerows Jul 2015 #40
I don't see them as excuses, just rational choices virtualobserver Jul 2015 #42
Well, Bernie went along with bush. boston bean Jul 2015 #43
if you are as relentless in all phases of your life as you are in defense of Hillary.... virtualobserver Jul 2015 #45
Well, I'm successful in many areas, some not so much.. boston bean Jul 2015 #46
Ultimately we are all on the same team virtualobserver Jul 2015 #48
We are all adults Aerows Jul 2015 #21
No. I will post the truth of the matter. boston bean Jul 2015 #24
When will you start doing that? frylock Jul 2015 #26
read the OP. He authorized the use of military forces boston bean Jul 2015 #27
Okay. So where does your candidate differ on that front? frylock Jul 2015 #35
+1 retrowire Jul 2015 #60
She authorized the use of military force against a nation that had nothing to do with Autumn Jul 2015 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author Aerows Jul 2015 #31
I have a feeling that both of us Aerows Jul 2015 #33
There were no angels in Kosovo. SunSeeker Jul 2015 #22
No, you supported ending one ethnic cleansing and promoting another eridani Jul 2015 #49
We don't need saving. NCTraveler Jul 2015 #6
Funny they said the same thing about Obama CTBlueboy Jul 2015 #10
To be fair, most of the thinking left supported the strikes in Kosovo frazzled Jul 2015 #12
If Bernie Sanders can't save us Aerows Jul 2015 #14
I agree floyd1 Jul 2015 #17
You're using Counterpunch to smear Bernie? smokey nj Jul 2015 #16
Somebody in GD Le Taz Hot Jul 2015 #23
a person who dislikes humankind and avoids human society? DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2015 #55
Whatever Bernie isn't in terms of pacifism, Hillary is 10X worse whatchamacallit Jul 2015 #18
So Bernie is- ruffburr Jul 2015 #30
whatever.... mike_c Jul 2015 #32
If you have followed his politics, pragmatic is what many who do know him would call him. Jefferson23 Jul 2015 #36
The problem you have with this is that Hillary voted for all that war and more. If this damns Bernie Bluenorthwest Jul 2015 #39
She is not damned and neither is Bernie. boston bean Jul 2015 #47
No he can't. WE have to save US, and Bernie reminds us every time he speaks. Avalux Jul 2015 #41
Picking the BEST udbcrzy2 Jul 2015 #44
Counterpunch has no credibility and is a joke of a site JI7 Jul 2015 #50
What makes this so adorable is that you still think you're fooling people arcane1 Jul 2015 #51
Heavy on words AgingAmerican Jul 2015 #52
Interesting you resorted to Counterpunch. That's usually frowned upon here. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2015 #53
You should listen to a couple of Bernie's speeches. Kalidurga Jul 2015 #56
Bernie is not perfect but is much better than any other politician out there AZ Progressive Jul 2015 #57
This post should be pinned at the top artislife Jul 2015 #61
Also, neither was Martin Luther King or John F Kennedy or Lyndon Johnson or FDR perfect AZ Progressive Jul 2015 #58
Neither can Hillary Clinton. But we can save ourselves by voting for a candidate Autumn Jul 2015 #62
I certainly will vote for that candidate! boston bean Jul 2015 #64
I certainly will. I support him 100%!!! Autumn Jul 2015 #65
I will support her 100%!!! boston bean Jul 2015 #66

LWolf

(46,179 posts)
1. That's what he keeps saying.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:47 PM
Jul 2015

He says it just about every time I listen to him speak.

No POTUS can "save" the U.S..

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
11. I can't speak for the OP
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:00 PM
Jul 2015

But I think it is a major mistake to see any presidential candidate, president, or politician more generally as a savior. The presidency is a limited constitutional office that has to work with congress to enact any legislation. Nothing major domestically can be done absent congressional approval. Additionally, our system is set up to resist change and to be remarkably, if not intractably, stable. The founders deliberately distanced government from the people. Even the perfect president can only do so much, which is to say not that much at all.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
20. Hillary is a disaster in the making
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:33 PM
Jul 2015

She has flip-flopped on more things than a vacation at Disney World.

There is a reason why there is a trust deficit with the public that don't live in New York and New England. We don't trust her, and honestly, plenty in New England, see VT, don't trust her either.

"She'll sell us out to Wall Street the second she can" is the feeling.

 

villager

(26,001 posts)
67. I agree that it will take *more* than just "who is President" to "save" us in a systemic sense
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 02:59 PM
Jul 2015

And there's a question about whether America, as presently constituted, will ever be up to the task.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
5. I supported the liberation of Kosovo and the end to ethnic cleansing.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:49 PM
Jul 2015

Bernie Sanders was on the side of the angels.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
7. I agree with that. I'm just pointing out to some
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:51 PM
Jul 2015

regarding war, that Bernie is not perfect.

There are parts of his record that are the antipathy of what they are saying it is.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
8. I am an adult. I see people as three dimensional beings and not cookie cutter saints.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:53 PM
Jul 2015

I also think he has the Israel/Palestine situation about right.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
9. I agree with his actions
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:55 PM
Jul 2015

he just avoids getting hoodwinked into voting for war

Defunding an existing war would be stupid.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
25. and, what about this from the link:
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:58 PM
Jul 2015
Sanders joined the bandwagon and voted to adopt the joint resolution that authorized the President to use the United States Armed Forces against anyone involved with the attacks of September 11th, 2001 and any nation that harbors these individuals.
 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
28. yes, I agree with that - It was the Iraq war that I was opposed to.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:07 PM
Jul 2015

My evaluations of each of the situations in the article were identical to his.

It was very reassuring to me.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
29. So, it's not really about bombing of innocents
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:09 PM
Jul 2015

the war machine or anything like that. Cause that happened in the wars he actually voted for.

It is only about the Iraq War, which Sanders voted to fund and that Hillary voted reluctantly for. If he was so anti war and against that, he should have voted against it. He could have taken a principled stand. His vote would not have mattered.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
37. The actions that Bill Clinton took ultimately saved lives.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:27 PM
Jul 2015

He intervened to stop a pointless war and brought peace to that region.

There were good reasons to go into Afghanistan, Bush just bungled it.

Iraq, a pointless war, and it was obvious to me that the Bush Administration was lying.
Obvious to Bernie too.

Once they started it, there was no going back....de-funding a an ongoing war is just foolish.

Bernie appears to be against stupid wars like Vietnam and Iraq.
Sometimes war is necessary.







boston bean

(36,221 posts)
38. I see there is lots of excuses for it.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:39 PM
Jul 2015

I myself fall into that as well.

You are right not everything is so cut and dried is it?

So, now that we have given up on the accepting only perfection, maybe we can move on from the Hillary is a war hawk meme.

She isn't.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
40. She's not my candidate to defend.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:42 PM
Jul 2015

If she wins the primary, I'll vote for her. Until then?

Hell no, she isn't my candidate. I #feelthebern.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
42. I don't see them as excuses, just rational choices
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:55 PM
Jul 2015

I don't view Hillary as a war hawk.

I just can't understand why anyone (who was a Democrat) went along with Bush.

From my far vantage point, I could see that the case for war was cobbled together with string and wax paper. Before they voted, using just the information I found on the internet.....and everything that I read at that time turned out to be true.

29 Democratic Senators voted for it, not just Hillary......I may never understand it.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
43. Well, Bernie went along with bush.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:57 PM
Jul 2015

Who fucked up Afghanistan. If that is what we are going to use to measure, Bernie deserves to be measured by it as well, I guess.

 

virtualobserver

(8,760 posts)
45. if you are as relentless in all phases of your life as you are in defense of Hillary....
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 06:02 PM
Jul 2015

you must be very successful.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
46. Well, I'm successful in many areas, some not so much..
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 06:05 PM
Jul 2015

I'm your average person.

But, really it is not a defense of Hillary. I was just wishing to point out that some of the criticisms we see here from person who defend Bernie are very similar to those of Hillary supporters.

It's not an all or nothing. There are nuances, and I'm tired of having the war meme thrown in my face, when others just brush off others who did very similar, with no consequence.

Call it a sense of fairness.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
21. We are all adults
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:38 PM
Jul 2015

He most certainly is the right leader for our nation in these times.

See, this is how you detonate a political campaign. Demote the opposition to toddlers that just need to be guided in the right direction.

This is EXACTLY the attitude that you do not use to win a campaign.

This "know-it-all" air you have going on is hurting more than it is helping, boston bean.

Stop it.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
27. read the OP. He authorized the use of military forces
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:01 PM
Jul 2015

against anyone who had a hand in or was harboring those who committed 9/11.

So, there is that, and his support for Kosovo. He is not an anti war candidate.

Plus he votes immediately to fund these wars.

Autumn

(45,084 posts)
63. She authorized the use of military force against a nation that had nothing to do with
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 09:44 AM
Jul 2015

the attacks of September 11th, 2001 and harbored no individuals that did so? That's kind of a big fucking difference right there.

You most likely won't get a reply so I figured I'd answer the question. It seems to be all the rage for someone else to respond for another poster.

Response to frylock (Reply #26)

SunSeeker

(51,557 posts)
22. There were no angels in Kosovo.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:41 PM
Jul 2015

Once we drove out the Serbs with our 1999 bombing campaign, Kosovo Albanians (who are Muslim) ethnically cleansed Kosovo of Jews, Roma and most of its Christians. The NATO occupation of Kosovo did not end ethnic cleansing. Kosovo can be called a lot of things right now. "Liberated" is not one of them.

Having gone to war to stop killing and reverse ethnic cleansing, NATO stood by as ethnic Albanians kicked out more than 200,000 Serbs, Roma, Jews, and others. In 2004 another round of Albanian-led violence ensued, as mobs destroyed the homes and churches of ethnic Serbs, creating additional refugees.

Bloody revenge is not unusual after civil wars, but these crimes occurred on the West’s watch. The Council of Europe admitted that the allied intervention had “led to numerous human rights violations and [had] not produced lasting solutions for the underlying problems.”

Nothing changed with the territory’s new leadership, which emerged from the Kosovo Liberation Army and was dogged by claims of war crimes and criminality. The Council of Europe called the KLA a “mafia-like” organization. Former international prosecutor Carla Del Ponte publicized allegations that the group had murdered civilian captives and sold their organs. The European Union recently launched a new investigation of these charges after five Kosovars were convicted of running an organ-trafficking operation.


Read more at http://spectator.org/articles/55551/delivering-serbs-wolves

eridani

(51,907 posts)
49. No, you supported ending one ethnic cleansing and promoting another
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 12:33 AM
Jul 2015

The one you promoted was the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from the Krajina.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
6. We don't need saving.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 03:50 PM
Jul 2015

We need to progress at a faster rate than we regress.

All of our big three will accomplish that. We can really make ground if we gain in the house and senate.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
12. To be fair, most of the thinking left supported the strikes in Kosovo
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:03 PM
Jul 2015

It was our inaction in Bosnia, and the horror of Srebrenica (which you've certainly been re-living in the news of late) that led many in the West (notably Susan Sontag) to call for action against Serbian aggression and atrocities in Kosovo.

I don't find that a stain on Sanders' credibility at all.

floyd1

(20 posts)
17. I agree
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:12 PM
Jul 2015

Anything is better than Hillary. If we are forced to live in a least-worst system, Bernie is certainly the Democratic party's answer! Let's remember: Hillary voted FOR WAR IN IRAQ. This is the most egregious blunder any politician can make. In my book, it disqualifies her from being the nominee.

Le Taz Hot

(22,271 posts)
23. Somebody in GD
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 04:41 PM
Jul 2015

Used "The Weekly Standard" to prove their anti-Bernie point. That didn't used to be allowed on DU but I guess times change.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
55. a person who dislikes humankind and avoids human society?
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 03:27 AM
Jul 2015

thats the definition of the username anyway. She didn't bother posting the New Yorker's piece on the alleged event. Instead, she chose a Weekly Standard writer's column. I looked this guy up, and found that he dedicated part of his day pimping James O'Keefe's latest smear against Planned Parenthood on Twitter.

ruffburr

(1,190 posts)
30. So Bernie is-
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:10 PM
Jul 2015

Bad because he voted against the war in Iraq but once it was passed anyway Bernie voted to fund the soldiers sent to fight, that's what I get out of this article, What a crock of crap.

Jefferson23

(30,099 posts)
36. If you have followed his politics, pragmatic is what many who do know him would call him.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:26 PM
Jul 2015

This author cracks me up: Senator Sanders is often called a socialist in the mainstream and progressive media. While this may have been true once, it would be hard for even the most generous reader of Karl Marx to honestly say this was still the case.

Right, because if he was that would be swaying more Americans to see him as mainstream? lol


Sanders has a past of compromises, a past of decisions that will not line up with the very definition
of whatever form of socialism people are attacking him for.

His record, compared to many others, is not a neoliberal nightmare and he is calling for a political
revolution due to the fact that we're heading further and further away from achieving our objectives..
our system has politicians indebted to those with more money. Funny how the author does not want
to talk about that...or so it seems.


 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
39. The problem you have with this is that Hillary voted for all that war and more. If this damns Bernie
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:40 PM
Jul 2015

it damns her. It's like saying he's not qualified because he's been a Senator so it should be Clinton. It's like saying Hillary is bad because she was a Goldwater Girl so we should vote for Warren who was a Republican for 30 years, a Reagan/Bush Woman. Can't ding the other for what you do too.
Then there is the source, counterpunch, which loathes Hillary. So again, if he's damned, she's damned twice by them. No need to even look for examples.
Not wise tactics.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
47. She is not damned and neither is Bernie.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 06:08 PM
Jul 2015

Counterpunch does indeed loathe Hillary, but they are obviously much further left than you to criticize Bernie this way.

This wasn't meant to be a pissing match, but more of an exercise to show that no one is perfect in the regard when it comes to war. Not even Bernie Sanders.

Not Bernie Sanders or Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton.

Double standards is what I see.

Avalux

(35,015 posts)
41. No he can't. WE have to save US, and Bernie reminds us every time he speaks.
Tue Jul 14, 2015, 05:52 PM
Jul 2015

"When millions of people stand up and fight, they win" - Bernie Sanders

Until we stop looking for someone to save us and/or tell us what to do - we will stay stuck exactly where we are, swirling ever closer to the drain as we continue to elect people committed to continuing the status quo.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
53. Interesting you resorted to Counterpunch. That's usually frowned upon here.
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 02:16 AM
Jul 2015

But, hey, welcome to the wacko extreme left!

Anti-imperialists can certainly criticize Sanders for his pro-war votes.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
56. You should listen to a couple of Bernie's speeches.
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 03:39 AM
Jul 2015

He tells us exactly what we need to do. And it's not wait around for someone to come rescue us.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
61. This post should be pinned at the top
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 09:26 AM
Jul 2015

of the boards at Bernie Sanders. When we are tired and not able to make more calls for Bernie, we need to watch these two videos to reignite the flames.




Thank you for posting!

Autumn

(45,084 posts)
62. Neither can Hillary Clinton. But we can save ourselves by voting for a candidate
Wed Jul 15, 2015, 09:37 AM
Jul 2015

that sees the needs of the people over the needs of banks and corporation.

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