I've been talking to women about Hillary Clinton,

[ghostsinthemachine]

Middle aged, middle class women of both parties and many of them all say the same thing... that they would not vote for her because she did not dump Bill. Some Men too, but not as prevalent.


My mom was that way too, she thought she wasn't a strong women because she kept Bill around, yet my Dad cheated on her all the time. So in her mind that made her seem as she was, a woman who was not strong.

I think that is weird but I am hearing it all the time, twice today, in fact.

Alswrongly started this thread in GD and it got locked... http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026977202

[Boomer]

1. I didn't see that one coming

I have to confess that of all the reasons I could think of to rule out Hillary Clinton as a candidate worthy of my vote, that's not one I would ever have conjured up.

[ghostsinthemachine]

4. It is very common I assure you

Weird I know but I hear it all the time.

[winter is coming]

5. Perhaps in your circles, but I can't recall having ever heard anyone say that. Ever. n/t

[justhanginon]

34. Perhaps you should find a different group of women to

converse with.

[murielm99]

35. It's not common where I live.

More women identify with her steadfastness and commitment to her marriage. They admire her.

[John Poet]

84. I heard the same thing in 2008

from a liberal woman friend.

[sufrommich]

2. How much lower is this going to go? nt

[MADem]

12. Really!

Personal anecdotes from people who aren't fans are always SO convincing to me!!! Let's all just take our little balls and go home....! We're DOOOOOMED, I tell ya...DOOOOOOOMED!

[freshwest]

20. Your post reminds me of The Hearse Song my dad taught me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hearse_Song

I thought it had to do with his time in the Pacific theater. His description of what they went through island by island wasn't pretty. Not to mention what they had to clean up in China as Japan retreated were pretty gruesome.

He didn't like to talk about it, but at times a story in the news or an obit would get him to mention it, but he had not hatred. Some of his answers were from my questions.

I figured it was how he had adapted to the horrors civilians don't see. Other than that, he never brought it up as being a tough guy, although he was a big strong man.

[Scootaloo]

51. Dunno. Maybe someone ought to stop ratcheting the bar down

[elleng]

3. I haven't heard that reason for not voting for her from women, and I don't like it,

but rather the substantive reasons: Wall Street etc. My 30 year old daughter and her husband don't support her for the same reason I won't, a senior woman.

Hillary IS strong, she suffered with him, and will use sharp elbows to get her way from many, probably too many imo.

[whathehell]

57. No, I haven't either.

It sounds kind of dumb to me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I have been a member since: Sat Jul 12, 2003, 04:35 PM

I have been a member since: Sat Jul 12, 2003, 04:35 PM and this one of the silliest posts I have ever seen...

You can start with the fact between her Senate races and presidential race nearly twenty million women have already voted for her.

[sufrommich]

7. It's worse than silly. nt

[demigoddess]

66. agree with that, also these idiots

don't seem to remember that Bill underwent therapy in the WH after it came out and Hillary attended some of the sessions with him. They worked to put their marriage back together. And I don't believe that Bill is a male chauvinist like some husbands who philander. When she was first year or two as Senator, there was a lot of pride in his voice when he called her Senator Clinton!!! I heard him speak.

[JaneyVee]

8. Good thing the polls say otherwise.

Or we might end up with a guy who was married 4x.

[boston bean]

37. lol..

[virtualobserver]

9. I'm actually impressed that they stayed together

The one thing that I would never question about Hillary is her strength.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. It reminds me of the scene in Selma when Coretta Scott King asks Dr. King about his philandering

It reminds me of the scene in Selma when Coretta Scott King asks Dr. King about his philandering if he "loved her" and he said no.


I can't peer into other folks marriages but it seems women are more sensitive to emotional betrayals and men are more sensitive to physical ones.

[virtualobserver]

19. I have never experienced that kind of betrayal......

I'm a guy and when I was pretty young, a male friend of mine betrayed a woman that he really cared about with someone he barely knew. It destroyed that woman's trust, and they broke up. Observing the impact of that on their individual lives had a big impact on me.

For me, trust could never be recovered.

That being said, the Clinton's marriage....Dr. King's as well....there is a greater mission in their lives, things that they wish to accomplish.

Hillary can trust Bill to support her in other very important ways.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. I agree...We can't peer into other folks' marriage...

Some of our greatest leaders from FDR to JFK to Dr.King to LBJ were philanderers and all their spouse stood by them...


There is a double standard... I don't think the public would be as forgiving of female philanderers.

[virtualobserver]

31. Nikki Haley is the only one that I know of....

A Democratic woman would not have survived.

The religious right allows Republicans to repent, and allows Republicans to condemn Democrats.

[sadoldgirl]

11. Strange kind of thinking,

but I can see that. On the other hand what I
hear quite often is that some people don't want
to give Bill a third term.
Equally strange, but I hear that from many.

[Cali_Democrat]

13. So you talked to some women and apparently the ones you talked to wouldn't vote for her

because she never left Bill.

Now that there's a scientific poll.

Well done!

[whathehell]

58. Lol

[kenfrequed]

14. I'm a sanders supporter

And I don't like this thread.

Please stop with this. It isn't helping.

[George II]

55. Bravo, thank you.

[BooScout]

83. Thank you!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. ROFL

[Motown_Johnny]

16. this is really sad

Even if it is true (which is questionable) it is simply the experience of one person. It has no statistical value at all.

Besides, it is reasonable to assume that there are just as many people who admire her devotion and her ability to move past what happened and keep her family together.

I am a Bernie supporter and this line of thought is very troubling for me. There are plenty of reasons to support a different candidate for the nomination. This isn't one of them.

[artislife]

41. I agree: Her marriage is her marriage

If we support LBGT then we also must support the right for hetros to have the marriage of their determination. What they chose to do is simply not our business.

[DanTex]

17. That's fascinating. I've been talking to men about Bernie.

They say they could never vote for a bald dude who has only sired one offspring. They think that real men are tall and handsome and sexually virile.

I think this is kinda weird, but whattareyagonnado, right? I mean, this is what dudes are saying! Really! Don't shoot the messenger!

[sufrommich]

18. Imagine how quickly an offensive OP like that would

get tossed. Strange times for DU.

[Lil Missy]

21. That's a pretty dumb reason for not voting for someone. n/t

[MerryBlooms]

22. I'm calling "Shenanigans!".

What a complete load of horseshit.

IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, IT'S NOT MY BUSINESS, NOT YOUR MOM'S BUSINESS, NOR ANYFUCKINGONE ELSE'S BUSINESS. The Clinton's marriage is THEIR MARRIAGE, PERIOD. It also has ZERO to do with how the woman would govern.

I'm a staunch Bernie supporter, but man, your post is so fucking out of line. Seriously, just delete this shit.

[For Freddie]

45. YES YES YES!

Oh PULLLL EEEZE Not this crap Again. Really???

I will support who ever wins the nomination.I will not pull down anyone who opposes the Darkness on the Far Right.No matter the problems present .KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE. HOLD ON.
Not gonna work this time.

I love Bernie. No matter who wins it we HAVE to stand together against The Darkness. As Eleanor and Franklin, Coretta and Martin did and Bill and Hill DO. Adults don't make political decisions based on gossip, hear say of their neighbors or their girl friends. This is not about betrayal. Or personal wounds. Or The First Wives Club. This is about Charleston,Drones and Social Security. This is about surviving in the 21st Cent. and who gives our kids and families the best chance to do that.

This is NOT Middle School or Girls Night Out. This is the future of our kids, grand kids and our quality of life. The Planet?

To interject this thought form straight out of Ken Starr's and Karl Rove's playbook is not gonna work this time. This is not The Wives Club of Good Fellas.

To attempt to divide and alienate women with this reflects manipulation, again.And most of us here aren't buying it.

You see, we detest the violence against women, children, people of color much more than taking personally anything Bill did or did not do. We don't give a rats ass about that.

My Mom is 92 she used to feel that way about Hill and Bill. Now all she cares about is someone who can improve the quality of life for the people. She doesn't buy it. Nor do my daughters or grand daughter.

It may shave a few votes off of Christian women's voting, they so fear revolting in mass in their votes. This is aimed at the women of their base who have had enough. I don't think it is going work.
When it comes down to quality of life for one's kids and grand kids women have a way of behaving in a far more mature way than the ones you SAY you have been talking to. This Whispering Campaign is LAME. Why don't you tell your handler rather than spending money on this to just write a check to Bernie and so someone some good for a change.

Again, I WILL vote for anyone the party nominates. I will not
have a hissy fit and hand the election over to the jerkoffs.

[wyldwolf]

23. Really? I've been talking to women about Hillary Clinton,

and they can't wait to vote for her.

[Le Taz Hot]

24. I've never heard anything like that.

There are hundreds, maybe thousands of reasons not to vote for her but that isn't one of them. Pretty stupid if you ask me.

[Thinkingabout]

25. If there is going to be this standard then we would not vote for someone who has been divorced or

had a child without marriage.

[Sheepshank]

47. Goose/gander for sure. N/t

[LWolf]

27. To be honest,

Last edited Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)

that's something that pushed my buttons before I knew anything else about her. I saw her on 60 minutes when she said, "I'm not sitting here some little woman standing by my man like Tammy Wynette" as she went on national television to stand by her man like Tammy Wynette.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/hillarys-first-joint-interview-next-to-bill-in-92

I lost respect for them both at that point, and never really regained it. I understand wanting to keep your private life private; of course, public figures don't really have that luxury. I don't think my cynical response was unreasonable, considering what came later.

Still, it wasn't a deal breaker. I've just been disappointed that a strong woman who broke glass ceilings professionally and worked for women's issues would be that kind of enabler.

Of course, in the end, it was the DLC/neo-liberal bent that turned me away for good.

[beam me up scottie]

28. This kind of talk doesn't belong on DU.

We're better than this.

Or we're supposed to be.

[DesertFlower]

29. interesting. IMO what happened between

hillary and bill is their business. hillary is not my first choice but if she's the nominee she will get my vote.

BTW. my dad cheated on my mom many times.

[SheilaT]

30. Oh, please.

I thought she should have left him, but she didn't. Her choice.

Meanwhile, the fact that I won't be voting for her at least in the primary season is because I think she is completely unsuited for the Presidency, and I don't feel like enumerating all the reasons right here.

[okasha]

32. I checked out your profile and your posts in the Cannabis group.

So were you stoned or sober when you heard this?

[Snotcicles]

52. Wow, now thats a humdinger of a personal attack. You should be ashamed. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. It seems tame by DU standards

eom

[okasha]

61. Not at all.

I'm quite willing to accept that the poster actually heard what she says she heard. Just inquiring about the circumstances.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. And you like to post in the religion group, it seems.

You know, torquemada and fred phelps were religious, while carl sagan was a pot smoking atheist.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[AlbertCat]

76. Just inquiring about the circumstances.

This is the definition of "disingenuous".


Were you beating your wife when you wrote it?

[Warren DeMontague]

67. "ooooh, you post in the CANNABIS group!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[Rob H.]

82. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. nt

[artislife]

62. To what extent to people go to in debating a point on a forum? nt

[artislife]

64. Someone should look and see that Justin and I had a conversation and all is good

But that won't fit your meme.

[beam me up scottie]

69. You should get an apology from the person who called you a bigot too.

But some folks don't care about setting the record straight.

I wouldn't waste my time on them.

[Warren DeMontague]

65. Oh, is this how the Hillary Clinton campaign is gonna deal with pot legalization & the drug war?

Like it's a big old joke to quack and cluck about? While 4 states have legalized and more - including a state called California, which you may even have heard of, as it has 1/10th of the US population- are likely to in 2016?

When a majority of Americans (particularly millennials, a demographic that the Bob Shrum beltway geniuses in charge of HRC's campaign seem only dimly aware exist) support legalization, now?

Yeah. Wouldn't surprise me one fucking bit.

[beam me up scottie]

70. +1

[tymorial]

33. My wife said this

[lostnfound]

36. Asinine judgment for people to say that

Who cares? It's between him and her,and frankly there are plenty of smart, confident women who place matters of genuine love, meaning, intellectual compatibility, mutual respect or friendship way above small matters of occasional list or "infidelity".

I am so sick of people judging others based on them not possessing the societally approved level of jealousy. Who gives a damn? Some of us just aren't born as jealous as others of us. Deal with it.

[boston bean]

38. Since when is it weak to forgive, right?

And then you will get some that say she forgave because she was power hungry and she only stayed with him because she craved the power.

Or that she is stupid because he cheated more than once and she stayed with him.

She can't fuckin win with some people, that's for sure.

You know how many "weak" women there must be in the world. A hell of a lot, cause many guys can't keep it in their pants and be in a monogamous relationship.

Many many woman stay with their husband who cheated.

There are also men who stay with women who do the same.

It is not a sign of weakness.

[lostnfound]

49. To err is human; to forgive,divine. A sign of strength or of genuine love.

In comparison to the grand adventure of being lifelong partners, raising a CHILD together, being there for each other through thick and thin, a short affair doesn't measure up.

No one can be Bill for Hillary and no one can be Hillary for Bill.

[yawnmaster]

39. What was your selection mechanism for choosing the women you talked to about this?

Can you quantify "many"?
is that less than half?
how many women are in your sampling?

[Snotcicles]

50. Do you want a signed affidavit too? LOL. nt

[yawnmaster]

88. no, just the selection criteria. that should do it for now. eom

[Reter]

40. She would have dumped Bill had she lost her 2000 Senate election

n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. The latest polls showing HRC handing her opponent his ass must really sting.

n/t

[bigtree]

42. ffs

...I can't think of a more regressive response to Hillary for her experience - I don't care who said it or who's promoting it.

You open these posts and you almost don't know where you are anymore. What happened to this Democratic board?

[GeorgeGist]

44. I don't believe in ghosts.

[Sheepshank]

46. I call bullshit

I live in a household of young women. I am middle aged, and my mother is older. My sil, my mil, my cousins not one of them ever bring that up that false talking point in the OP, and all think Hillary is a strong woman.

[redstateblues]

53. Like the socialite who said after Nixon won

"I can't believe Nixon won. Everybody I know voted for McGovern" Anecdotal evidence does not prove anything. All the time? I doubt it. Twice today? I'll buy that for what it's worth.

[George II]

54. I've spoken to DOZENS of women about this issue, too...not a single one felt it was a "flaw"....

...in her ability to lead this country and deal with foreign leaders on the world stage, in fact many never even considered it at all.

Why is a woman's married life and personal life considered a factor in assessing her ability to be President? Why is that being discussed now? No one has brought up any other candidates' personal life, why hers?

[mythology]

56. While frankly I don't believe you

there is substantial evidence that says you are wrong:

http://onpolitics.usatoday.com/2015/03/20/hillary-clinton-women-gallup-poll/

Nearly 6 in 10 women, or 56%, have a favorable opinion of Clinton — the highest for any Democrat or Republican considering a White House bid. That compares to 44% of men who rate her favorably.

Vice President Biden runs a distant second (41%) among women, while Jeb Bush is 24 percentage points behind Clinton.

http://www.businessinsider.com/hillary-clinton-2016-poll-women-independents-election-2012-12

Overall, 57 percent of the poll's respondents said they would support a Clinton candidacy. That includes 35 percent of Republican women. To put that in perspective, President Barack Obama won just 6 percent of the overall Republican vote this year. Among all women, 66 percent would support Clinton's potential bid in 2016.

http://time.com/3576222/hillary-clinton-poll-women-correct-the-record/

Sen. Kay Hagan in North Carolina and Colorado’s Mark Udall both saw three percentage point bumps amongst women after Clinton appeared with them in the final weeks of campaigning, according to an analysis of polls before and after Clinton’s visit by the group.

Though both Hagan and Udall lost, Clinton gave incumbent Democratic Gov. John Hickenlooper in Colorado a turbo charge: his lead amongst women nearly tripled from a 4.8% advantage a to 12% lead after Hillary’s visit, and Hickenlooper eked out a win.

In New Hampshire and Illinois, incumbent Democratic Govs. Maggie Hassan and Pat Quinn both saw eight percentage point boosts, though it wasn’t enough to save Quinn. Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton and Michigan Senate candidate Gary Peters saw their support amongst women go up five percentage points apiece after Clinton’s visits.

So in short, there is no evidence of what you claim to have seen in at best a tiny anecdotal sense.

[oasis]

60. Hillary gets credit for preserving the Presidency because she greatly influenced public opinion during

The period of the impeachment debate by staying with Bill. if Bill had been removed from office, every vote for his second term would have been effectively nullified.

Talk about a constitutional crisis averted.

Thanks again Hillary.

[eridani]

71. As everyone keeps reminding us, DU is not normal

People really interested in public policy really are atypical. So it comes down to marital relationships, having a beer with candidates and similar stuff.

[BooScout]

72. I've heard that argument here at DU....

...as recently as last week. Its amazingly stupid criticism, but it's used none the less. Hillary has stood up to it with aplomb for decades.

[Bobbie Jo]

73. Sure

This ranks right up there with "some say..."

[demmiblue]

74. I am not a Clinton supporter, and I find this post to be, well...

[NCTraveler]

75. Your whole op is made up.

When you think of women you think of sex. You cannot disassociate the two. That is on you. Not women you have been "talking to."

[SwampG8r]

77. As a sanders supporter

Delete this
No matter how low the Clinton campaign gets using their tactics against them won't work
They will just get you down to their level and beat you with their experience.

[PatrickforO]

78. I have not heard anyone say that.

In my circle, most people favor Bernie because they like what he stands for, and dislike Clinton's hawkishness and advocacy of 'free' trade.

To be fair, some people feel that regardless of how well Bernie is perceived, at the end of the day the nominee will be Clinton because she's the 'safe' choice.

I guess everybody has a different 'take.'

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

79. Have you been talking to black women, too? Many of us don't really like her, either.

[Curmudgeoness]

80. Funny, I just had this conversation this morning.

I will never say that I will not vote for Hillary, and in the general election, if she is the candidate, I will be voting for her. But I did say that I was really turned off by her "stick by your man" stance. At the time, I was furious that she stayed. Now I am just disappointed about it.

[1monster]

81. Well, I'm middle-aged, and I'm voting for Bernie, but it isn't because Hillary didn't dump Bill...

As I told my sister, whose husband left her for a year to live with a much younger woman, "I'm not going to tell you to divorce him. You will do what you want to do. But, if you take him back, make sure it is on your terms..."

Whatever the basis is for Bill and Hillary's marriage, it is THEIR business. No one else's. And they do seem to have a relationship that works for them.

[HappyMe]

85. I really don't give a crap about their marriage.

That has nothing to do with why I don't support her now, and didn't support her the last time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. I recommended it so posters can peer into the minds of every candidate's supporters.

eom

[Lancero]

87. Why am I not suprised that people are bringing up their marital issues?

If anything, her remaining will Bill despite his actions shows her as capable of forgivness and willing to work together, with one who wronged her, to fix things.

Kinda sad to see these two traits being so undesirable.

[Skwmom]

89. I have a really hard time believing this.

Of course, it might play well with some woman - poor Hillary with what she has been through with Bill she deserves the presidency.

[Blue_In_AK]

90. I'm Hillary's age, a little older,

and I don't care whether she stood by her man or not. They're a power couple, and it was probably mutually beneficial to stay together, plus she might actually love the guy, despite his faults. My issues with her are her ties to Wall Street and her hawkishness.