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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:32 AM Aug 2015

American, socialist and proud: Meet Bernie Sanders’s supporters

JASON WILSON, THE GUARDIAN
05 AUG 2015 AT 08:58 ET

What does socialism mean in America? Some recent events suggest we haven’t a clue.

Last Thursday, political commentator Chris Matthews asked Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the Democratic National Committee chair, what distinguished “a Democrat like Hillary Clinton from a socialist like Bernie Sanders”. She stumbled and obfuscated, eventually blurting out that the really important differences were between Democrats and Republicans. The S-word was not something she wanted to discuss.

Predictably, the right wing’s all-caps brigade jumped on the occasion: the incident proved there was no difference between Democrats and socialists, and dammit, they were right all along to warn us about Obama’s socialist ways.

On the other side, Matthews – a centrist Democrat – later opined that Schultz was being cannily evasive. She was, he said, trying her hardest not to offend Sanders supporters, whom she will later ask to vote for the nominee.

But should we consider the possibility that Schultz genuinely didn’t know how to answer the question, and the further likelihood that she is not alone in her confusion?

What makes Sanders’s socialist candidacy so remarkable is that it’s been decades since the term has functioned as anything other than abuse. Perhaps bravely, Sanders still takes pride in that political label, and repeated in interviews last week that he is a “democratic socialist”.

more
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/american-socialist-and-proud-meet-bernie-sanderss-supporters/

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cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
1. We are much prouder of Bernie's history than those supporting Koch funded candidates should be...
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:50 AM
Aug 2015

... who's empire was built on money from communist dictator Joseph Stalin with the Koch brothers' father Fred Koch after WWII.



http://investmentwatchblog.com/the-kochstalin-connection-where-their-wealth-started/

Does the right really think they can be prouder that their campaign is funded by the inherited empire money received from a Soviet Union 1%er communist? Is that better somehow than someone who feels that DEMOCRATIC socialism is better for America?


Even most polled Americans feel the wealth distribution of northern European countries like Sweden is more what America should be too.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140922122811-90103575-wealth-inequality-differs-from-income-inequality

...
This widely-distributed and accepted chart from Harvard Business School professor, Michael Norton and Duke University economics professor, Dan Ariely illustrates this contrast in perception versus reality.

"They asked more than 5,000 Americans how they thought wealth is distributed in the United States. Most thought that it's more balanced than it actually is. Asked to choose their ideal distribution of wealth, 92% picked one that was even more equitable."



As the chart indicates, most households believe they have a larger share of the nation’s wealth, but that share is not yet ideal. However, not only does that perception not match up with reality, an even greater divide exists between reality and perceptions of equality versus inequality, for instance, either greatest in the U.S. or moderate in Sweden, as the comparative chart below reveals.


...

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
3. WTH does your misplaced OP have to do with this article from the Guardian?
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:53 AM
Aug 2015

Did you bother to read the entire article or, is your comment just a knee jerk reaction to a headline?

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
4. It supports why so many of us are proud to be "socialist" and how this term has been abused...
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:08 PM
Aug 2015

... over the years by the right, much like Limbaugh has tried to trash the term "liberal" too.

I'm just trying to point out that if people really looked more in depth to what DEMOCRATIC socialism is, as the article notes is what we and Bernie support, that trying to just rationalize that we're all wanting to be "commies" like the Soviet Union the way the right has used the term, in fact indicts THEM more as supporting the 1% dictator elements of the Soviet Union by their supporting candidates funded by the inherited wealth of Joseph Stalin who was anything BUT a "Democratic Socialist" and a 1%er in his day in the Soviet Union when he worked with 1%er Fred Koch who's sons carry on his 1% favoring traditions.

I'm also trying to point out with the second article that other research has shown that Americans without even realizing it look more for a model of what Sweden and other northern European countries that have more democratic socialism as their ideal for how our society should be broken down in terms of wealth distribution then too. They in effect want the effects of democratic socialism without even knowing this term by wanting the results it has achieved in other countries like Sweden.

Don't you dislike the right's mischaracterization of socialism? That's all I was trying to point out here and support the article's notion that we are proud of Bernie's socialism.

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
5. The contents of the Guardian article will go further to educate folks about socialism than
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:19 PM
Aug 2015

your tirade will. Seems to me it would be far better to pull sections of the Guardian article out and expand directly on them, not to worry about the Kochs. When the time comes to support/defend/and define Bernie's positions (and Bernie's brand of "socialism&quot on issues against the inevitable GOP assaults, folks are going to be far more concerned about his brand of socialism than they will be as to why old man Koch sat down with Joseph Stalin, created the John Birch Society or even what Joe McCarthy had to say.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
6. I think it depends on who you are talking to...
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:26 PM
Aug 2015

Yes, if you are talking to people that think more rationally, there's no need to bring up the Koch/Stalin connection. If they are receptive to hear what democratic socialism really is, then perhaps just the second article I reference along with a more in depth description of what this system really means is a better conversation topic.

But if you are dealing with those that are shouting "socialist" as an epithet to people around them to degrade Bernie's campaign, then I feel you can fight epithets with pointing out to those who won't be persuaded with logic, how they can have an even greater "commie" epithet thrown back at the candidates they support that are supported by the Kochs. And even those who think rationally, if you point out that there's more of a way of looking at those times and now as a battle of 1% vs 99% then and now, versus the battle between "communism/socialism" and "capitalism" that we've eternally heard in the media, etc. over time that oversimplifies our understanding of where the world is moving to and leaving us behind with our country losing its middle class and sinking in to poverty as a result.

The article is dealing with people like DWS who is paranoid of having any stated support for "socialism" as basically supporting these epithet hurling people on the right that gets warped by our corporate media too. In that respect bringing up the Koch/Stalin connection is relevant to put things in to perspective and defuse the epithet hurling.

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
7. If and when the time comes when Senator Sanders is facing GOP opposition,
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:42 PM
Aug 2015

no one will care about the Kochs or pictures of Daddy Koch with Joe Stalin. What they WILL care about are the pictures of "Sanders the Socialist" appearing alongside images of Joseph Stalin, the former leader of the Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. I've already seen the wing nuts comparing Senator Sanders to Hugo Chavez and his "failed Socialist experiments in Venezuela."

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
8. Then why just "let that happen"?....
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 12:50 PM
Aug 2015

We need to fight back and not let them define the space. As I said, talk rationally to those who can be rational and show them through many means how "socialism" isn't a bad thing and not all "socialists" are the equivalent to commie dictators the way the fear mongers are trying to make them out to be.

And for those that can't pay attention to logic, fight fire with fire and point out that their Koch brothers candidates are in effect and more documented as being supported by commie dictator Joseph Stalin's money through the Koch brothers than Bernie Sanders is. What do we have to lose in those cases? We want to diffuse their arguments that are based on propaganda. Diffuse that propaganda!

If you let them define the battle, then they will. The question is if you will let them get away with that, and let them stop any real reform that is asking us to embrace socialism the way so much of the rest of the world has where they are better off than we are and are achieving more what we aspire to without us even realizing it.

daybranch

(1,309 posts)
9. You are starting to sound like someone ranting about another's unwillingess to follow your rules
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:03 PM
Aug 2015

of what is most important to relate. The Koch Brothers made money by dealing with Stalin who made all other communist dictators in Soviet Union look like saints, The Koch Brothers are today while crying freedom, buying up candidates to destroy democracy at all levels of government. Pointing out that their family willingness to put business ahead of political philosophy tells us much about the rich who say it ain't personal, it is only business.
His point is valid and your angry denouncement is mean spirited and implies a very closed mind. But I am just one of those mean Bernie supporters who believe in shining a light on oligarchs like the Koch Brothers.
Say the name, wall Street Bankers, the Koch Brothers, General Electric and other CEOs, and the Billionaires.
The rich are actually not figuratively killing us all. We must unite to win the fight.

Democracy underground is democratic and telling others exactly what to say sure seems awfully undemocratic to me. He ain't writing a term paper you assigned and your attack iimplies a lack of self image as you seek to control such details. Let others express, you alone do not have any ownership of the perfect.

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
10. And how did talking about the Bush clan's relationship with
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 01:23 PM
Aug 2015

Adolf Hitler work out for the Dems in 2000 and 2004? Or, for that matter, their relationship with the Saudi royals and their family's investments in the PRC (while Daddy Bush was our Chief Liaison to Beijing). Probably the same way running around screaming "The Kochs are coming, the Kochs are coming, the Kochs are coming" will work out for us.

Have a terrific day!

 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
2. These terms are essentially meaningless
Wed Aug 5, 2015, 11:51 AM
Aug 2015

Historically, and still in many places, "liberal" is the equivalent of what we consider "conservative" with emphasis on free markets and limited government regulation.

And another term has developed, "Neo-liberal" which is also ultra free-market corporate conservatism, which makes it even more confusing.

"Socialist" is more the equivalent of what we in the US would call "Liberal," except more so.

And the definition of "conservative" elsewhere is generally more moderate and balanced than our definition of conservative (ultra right wing looney).

So, Democratic Socialist is actually a more accurate term for Sanders. He basically a Staunch Liberal.

It;s unfortunate that peole get distracted by the term.

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