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pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 05:21 PM Aug 2015

From a Millennial Sanders supporter, to naysayers

I was told I should make this an OP, so here goes:

Yes, there are some who hear free college and jump on his bandwagon. But from so many I've talked to amongst my age group? We understand it takes more than a Presidential election to change this country. We're already talking about who to support locally and how to keep the enthusiasm up past the general election.

I don't support Bernie because I want something for free. I know he can't do everything he says he wants to by himself, and he will tell you that, too. Free shit isn't on my damn agenda. Taking my government back from the influence of corporate interests and the insanely weathly is my number one goal. Fuck free college. Fuck a $15 wage. Fuck single payer. None of it will ever happen and be allowed to work in the long run if we keep letting the corporations run our government. We must take our government back and make it work for the people before we even think of making good change.

I'm self employed. I pay my taxes quarterly like a good little American, so I am highly aware of my tax situation. My effective tax rate last year was 10% (with a tuition tax break) yet these corporations pay an effective rate of nothing? Fuck them. I'm tired of corporate welfare. I will not vote for someone who is in their pocket.

I don't give a damn how lofty Bernie's proposals are. I don't give a damn if he doesn't get free college or free anything passed. Every naysayer is throwing out the free shit line. I'm not supporting him for that. I am supporting Bernie Sanders because he has supported the average American his entire career and been consistent. I am supporting Bernie Sanders because he isn't paid for by the wealthy and influential. I am voting Bernie Sanders because he is our only chance to take this country back from the wealthy. Because he cares. Because I know what he believes and he isn't afraid to stand against the status quo. Because he supports our veterans. Because he fights for the common good. Because I agree with most, though not all, of his stances.

Fuck your free shit and don't think you speak for me. I'm informed and I'm feeling the BERN because I'm fucking angry. I want a future for my kids, and this clown car we have now isn't going to ensure that. They only care about themselves just like too many people in this country. No, I want a better future for my family and yours, whether you're a racist, gun-stroking red neck here in my neck of the woods or a deep blue lefty blinded by establishment politics. I want to believe in America again. Right now all I see is the United States of I-Bought-You.

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From a Millennial Sanders supporter, to naysayers (Original Post) pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 OP
thanks. yeah that Clinton supporter line about how you guys are only cali Aug 2015 #1
Maybe if he proposed a plan on how to pay for things. SonderWoman Aug 2015 #15
He did. Go learn more. n/t retrowire Aug 2015 #22
By taxing Wall Street. Dont call me Shirley Aug 2015 #26
I thought he was taxing Wall Street for infrastructure? SonderWoman Aug 2015 #56
Wall Street really should pay for it all, greedy fuckers! Dont call me Shirley Aug 2015 #60
I thought he was taxing Wall Street for infrastructure? AlbertCat Aug 2015 #75
Here. JDPriestly Sep 2015 #126
Thanks, JD, evidently my evidence was not evidentiary. Thanks for posting clear evidence. Dont call me Shirley Sep 2015 #184
Thank you! Our point made. Even your own reference mentions just how unrealistic it is! Amimnoch Aug 2015 #66
who rather actual progress over wishful thinking. AlbertCat Aug 2015 #80
*shrug* do did Ron Paul. More power to you, but I'll stick with reality. Amimnoch Aug 2015 #86
I reject your reality and substitute my own. Jester Messiah Sep 2015 #136
He is saying that he isn't really backing Bernie for the free stuff or what Bernie wants to do JDPriestly Aug 2015 #88
+1 BeanMusical Aug 2015 #92
As I go down the line of responses, you are the first one to get A+ on AikidoSoul Sep 2015 #188
OK, I'll play: How would Hillary "make more progressive legislation happen" as compared to Bernie? LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #93
Crickets hueymahl Sep 2015 #145
More money for hedge fund managers and investment bankers. Ikonoklast Sep 2015 #162
Don't you know? RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #169
The country not being progressive must explain why so many red states-- eridani Sep 2015 #132
Thanks for setting me straight. I'll go back to being a Hillary hostage now. It's safer. n/t dogknob Sep 2015 #170
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Dont call me Shirley Sep 2015 #185
You weren't listening. He laid it all out. Bernie's plan is perfectly feasible. Enthusiast Aug 2015 #27
How many times have you asked this question hifiguy Aug 2015 #34
+1 beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #89
Obviously obvious. BeanMusical Aug 2015 #94
She's still pushing that 'Bernie's a pedophile protector' Republican talking point. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #138
"pedophile protector"??? BeanMusical Sep 2015 #139
The ad she posted here goes further, it calls him a pedophile. Here's the link: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #140
Oh wow, I'm speechless. BeanMusical Sep 2015 #143
Not all of them, thankfully. Some of her supporters have integrity. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #144
"Some of her supporters have integrity." BeanMusical Sep 2015 #146
No, I didn't mean you! beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #148
Oh, that's nice of you to say that. BeanMusical Sep 2015 #155
What a disgusting smear BlindTiresias Sep 2015 #195
He has. artislife Aug 2015 #42
Why ask questions you don't want the answer to.... daleanime Aug 2015 #70
He did. But I am guessing you don't care. rhett o rick Aug 2015 #107
Taxing the rich is just one way. tecelote Sep 2015 #127
+1 All, esp. military spending. appalachiablue Sep 2015 #189
They then follow with a big round of...can't, can't, can't, can't, can't.... SoapBox Aug 2015 #18
That can't sounds so much like MuseRider Aug 2015 #35
Exactly. Somehow Republicans always CAN get shit done... beerandjesus Sep 2015 #151
Some in Washington are making tons of money... bvar22 Sep 2015 #181
Or that we don't know history. nt DRoseDARs Aug 2015 #90
The corporations are supporting Clinton b/c they want free stuff. Skwmom Sep 2015 #135
Clinton Supporters Acting Like Republicans billhicks76 Sep 2015 #142
Wow, your post has not convinced me, Obama is going for free community college so this is not new. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #2
convinced you about what? cali Aug 2015 #4
Don't ask Armstead Aug 2015 #16
The poster is not trying to convince you of anything. djean111 Aug 2015 #6
Yeah, don't care. pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #8
The same back to you, don't act like you speak for me. Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #12
Or to you... daleanime Aug 2015 #71
Have we sunk so low. Obama isn't "going" for free community college. LOL. rhett o rick Aug 2015 #108
Heres to your new low: Thinkingabout Aug 2015 #110
So you meant that he " is going for free community college" just like he was "going to close Gitmo". rhett o rick Sep 2015 #118
Well, you have explained the same thing will happen with Bernie, done, it's over. Thinkingabout Sep 2015 #121
Sure, but at least we know that Bernie would never compromise on his position. n/t Dawgs Sep 2015 #150
Are you serious? He has compromised on many issues, gun control for one. Thinkingabout Sep 2015 #154
I don't think you know what "compromise" means,.. Dawgs Sep 2015 #156
Compromise is an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making Thinkingabout Sep 2015 #158
How did you get me? I know what compromise means, and you still don't. Dawgs Sep 2015 #161
goodbye Thinkingabout Sep 2015 #164
Or "golden parachute". beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #159
"gun control for one" BeanMusical Sep 2015 #160
Big difference. Sen Sanders will of course have trouble. Not only with Republicons but also rhett o rick Sep 2015 #165
My question is, has he done anything about it since January? beerandjesus Sep 2015 #157
"Obama floats it" BeanMusical Sep 2015 #163
Yep, he and the conservative wing of the Party like to "float it". I think he should be working rhett o rick Sep 2015 #166
Big K & R! Le Taz Hot Aug 2015 #3
K&R CharlotteVale Aug 2015 #5
As a fellow millennial...still with Hill. Metric System Aug 2015 #7
And I respect that even if others do not. Nt. pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #10
And I respect your choice to support Sen. Sanders. Metric System Aug 2015 #13
Since this is the General Discussion Primaries board... retrowire Aug 2015 #25
And still unable to say which policies you support LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #30
Are you thread stalking me? Metric System Aug 2015 #37
You are advocating for your candidate; it seems like you should be proud to say which of these LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #38
So you are thread-stalking me. Metric System Aug 2015 #40
So can't say you even agree with any of your candidate's positions LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #43
I don't owe you any answers. Metric System Aug 2015 #44
Nope, I agree LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #46
Thank you for helping me to decide to take a break (possibly permanently) from DU. Your comments are Metric System Aug 2015 #49
Asking you why you support your candidate is way out of line? On a political message board? LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #51
When I say I don't owe you an explanation, you should respect that. Instead, you've followed me into Metric System Aug 2015 #53
Well no. I asked you there and you did not answer (which is quite different from you saying you LondonReign2 Aug 2015 #58
It does come across as antagonistic to keep pressing mythology Aug 2015 #109
Careful. You're sounding like Hillary there! John Poet Sep 2015 #147
if by politely addressing you and asking questions, is stalking, than yes cali Aug 2015 #45
Cali, I don't badger you about why you support Sanders, so I would hope to have the same respect Metric System Aug 2015 #52
+1000 sheshe2 Aug 2015 #55
Why don't you just answer the question then? BlindTiresias Sep 2015 #196
So you are thread-stalking me. AlbertCat Aug 2015 #82
MetricSystem - if you don't like LR's tone, retrowire politely asked you to explain your support of kath Aug 2015 #64
Because I don't have to EXPLAIN my support to anyone. I have many good reasons for supporting HRC Metric System Aug 2015 #68
However, this demand AlbertCat Aug 2015 #85
g'bye. 2banon Sep 2015 #120
'Still with Hill" ...yes, very still. dougolat Sep 2015 #178
Yes, you are totally right. sadoldgirl Aug 2015 #9
Bravo! Bravissimo!! hifiguy Aug 2015 #11
Yeah, fuck everything, bro! SonderWoman Aug 2015 #14
Your content-free contribution to the dialogue hifiguy Aug 2015 #61
bro? Puzzledtraveller Aug 2015 #77
Millennial, therefore "bro". sibelian Sep 2015 #133
Ya see, the kids have a different lingo. So you got to use it to connect with them jeff47 Sep 2015 #172
Definitely a legitimate reason to stick with Sanders GitRDun Aug 2015 #17
Thank you. I am so thankful that you younger people jwirr Aug 2015 #19
Good post! Juicy_Bellows Aug 2015 #20
It is the work of the right wing and the ruling class and their bootlickers... AOR Aug 2015 #21
Well, it is a post about why I support Bernie... pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #48
I understand what you're saying... AOR Aug 2015 #72
Oh, no offense taken. pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #84
You're confusing libertarian with right wing. ozone_man Aug 2015 #83
Sanders will ..."he will attract those who could care less what category they fall into..." slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #96
Anyone who doesn't stand with the working class and labor over capital... AOR Aug 2015 #101
Yes, first he is a champion of working class and social issues. ozone_man Sep 2015 #119
I think most of the Austrian school "libertarians"... AOR Sep 2015 #176
Agreed. ozone_man Sep 2015 #190
I do think Bernie has the future in mind for all Americans, not just himself and his friends. jalan48 Aug 2015 #23
I am voting Bernie because he has the guts to stand up against the oligarcs and vote against punguin54 Aug 2015 #24
K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Aug 2015 #28
Millenials must vote en masse! And must vote for Bernie. Dont call me Shirley Aug 2015 #29
DU skews heavily towards boomers who, frankly, dont understand you guys at all. Warren DeMontague Aug 2015 #31
Sorry, disagree with your assesment on a variety of points ... slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #91
And they STILL totally don't get Gen X humor. Warren DeMontague Aug 2015 #102
Well maybe some ... slipslidingaway Aug 2015 #112
I marinated in boomer music, growing up, myself. Warren DeMontague Aug 2015 #113
I'm one of those old farts and i say "go for it" although, that's... Armstead Sep 2015 #124
I used groovy in a post the other day. Un-ironically. Warren DeMontague Sep 2015 #131
Funny stuff hueymahl Sep 2015 #149
Even if he can't get anything done, it's better than the alternative Elmer S. E. Dump Aug 2015 #32
Beautifully stated. Paka Aug 2015 #33
K&R Armstead Aug 2015 #36
Happy to see you here! MuseRider Aug 2015 #39
K & R L0oniX Aug 2015 #41
I sure hope you live in an early primary state tularetom Aug 2015 #47
I live in Alabama... pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #63
oh.. crap. Alabama? Marty McGraw Aug 2015 #97
It's like in the movie the Matrix: America has a choice right now. Utopian Leftist Aug 2015 #50
A very apt analogy. hifiguy Aug 2015 #62
Precisely. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #137
Thanks so much for a first-hand perspective. Well written. Happy to rec. MerryBlooms Aug 2015 #54
K & R I liked your post the first time I read it mountain grammy Aug 2015 #57
I'd like to see a woman president but pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #65
Preach it!! hifiguy Aug 2015 #76
We must convince everyone how politics influences their lives.. mountain grammy Aug 2015 #106
Tell it! HappyPlace Aug 2015 #59
From one Millennial to another... Bryce Butler Aug 2015 #67
Preach it!!!! onecaliberal Aug 2015 #69
As a fellow millennial, I completely agree with this post. WIProgressive88 Aug 2015 #73
Why it matters what the young people think artislife Aug 2015 #74
K & R, very good writing, thank you stopwastingmymoney Aug 2015 #78
I'm 42 Puzzledtraveller Aug 2015 #79
I have not read this whole thread but know you got a lot of comments. zeemike Aug 2015 #81
RIGHTEOUS!!! beam me up scottie Aug 2015 #87
Great post! BeanMusical Aug 2015 #95
Can Hillary continue to ignore and not reach out to millennials? Bonobo Aug 2015 #98
Depends on turnout. jeff47 Sep 2015 #173
this gen-Xer aidbo Aug 2015 #99
Millennials will be the first generation to significantly change the world for Zorra Aug 2015 #100
Thank you for your service. -nt- 99th_Monkey Aug 2015 #103
Good points but simplesimon Aug 2015 #104
The phrasing was a nod toward their statements, not mine. pinstikfartherin Aug 2015 #115
What you love about him is exactly what makes him such a bad candidate. moobu2 Aug 2015 #105
Well, selling out hasn't been working out so well so we'll try being whiny angry... HappyPlace Aug 2015 #114
Well, the two-faced political shtick is really old to me. pinstikfartherin Sep 2015 #116
And yet here he is challenging the establishment candidates and garnering support of our children .. slipslidingaway Sep 2015 #117
"he is challenging the establishment candidates" moobu2 Sep 2015 #128
Just curious hueymahl Sep 2015 #168
Corporate candidates, is that better? n/t slipslidingaway Sep 2015 #193
i'm glad you hate liberals so much Armstead Sep 2015 #125
Yep. One can never get enough of right wing rhetoric and hatred. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #130
Sure, better to go with the status-quo candidate whose approvals are reaching record lows. Dawgs Sep 2015 #152
"That whiny angry liberal shtick" Scootaloo Sep 2015 #153
Your view is traditional progressive HassleCat Aug 2015 #111
Thanks for your explanation. This is what I'm looking for in the Democratic platform as well. canoeist52 Sep 2015 #171
Nay nt stevenleser Sep 2015 #122
Forget the naysayers and just look forward ... slipslidingaway Sep 2015 #123
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Sep 2015 #129
Well spoken... sibelian Sep 2015 #134
*stands and applauds* LittleGirl Sep 2015 #141
Bravo Brother!! nt. jschurchin Sep 2015 #167
"...a deep blue lefty blinded by establishment politics." d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #174
Well said.... chapdrum Sep 2015 #175
HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!! WillyT Sep 2015 #177
Why Bernie Sanders and not Jill Stein? Does ability to win come into your calculation at all? n/t seaglass Sep 2015 #179
My GF's two kids are Millennial's and echo the same exact feelings. Javaman Sep 2015 #180
Pin stick farther in? Whatever. Hekate Sep 2015 #182
Taxes are kind of silly here. JoeyT Sep 2015 #183
Don't worry about it... one of your naysayers admitted to being an outright conservative years ago. demmiblue Sep 2015 #186
Kicked and recommended AikidoSoul Sep 2015 #187
SPOT ON !!! BRAVO !! secondwind Sep 2015 #191
Kids these days... IronLionZion Sep 2015 #192
Bernie appeals to both the left and Libertarian formernaderite Sep 2015 #194
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
1. thanks. yeah that Clinton supporter line about how you guys are only
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 05:25 PM
Aug 2015

supporting him because you want free stuff, isn't only insulting but so republican.

k&r

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
75. I thought he was taxing Wall Street for infrastructure?
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:12 PM
Aug 2015

Oh that's right.

One group can only pay for one thing.



Oh wait a minute....

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
126. Here.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:34 AM
Sep 2015

Further, a sales tax on Wall Street of 0.5 percent could raise up to $175 billion in tax revenue a year, even if, by discouraging frequent trades, it cuts the total number of transactions in half.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/a-sales-tax-on-wall-street-transactions/?_r=0

 

Amimnoch

(4,558 posts)
66. Thank you! Our point made. Even your own reference mentions just how unrealistic it is!
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:55 PM
Aug 2015
But setting political reality aside, the senator is offering a very rational framework for how we theoretically could make higher ed more affordable, even if we chose a different way to pay for it.


And THERE you have the core of our argument, right there in a Bernatic's post. He has WONDERFUL ideas. He has INCREDIBLE vision. With the exception of a few blips (I'll even go as far to give it to ya'll very minor and really rather insignificant blips) when it comes to gun control, he is the IDEAL progressive and liberal candidate. Therein lies the issue for those of us who rather actual progress over wishful thinking.. I don't want ideals, I want someone that will actually make more progressive legislation happen, and the bad news for you is your own link is quite correct, it is a GREAT idea, but it does NOT reside in political reality. The majority of this country is NOT progressive and liberal (yet at least), and no amount of wishful thinking is going to get a congress elected that will make Sanders vision anywhere near a reality. If he does win our primary, and if he does win the in the general, he will either have to learn to compromise, and disappoint the masses who have been devoted to him, or he will end up being one of the most ineffectual presidents in the history of the country.
 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
80. who rather actual progress over wishful thinking.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:18 PM
Aug 2015

More of the same is not progress.


Setting high goals.... in a perfect world..... and then seeing what can be achieved from that seems better than starting at a compromised position with only down to go.... like Obama did for so long.

Besides, unlike any other candidate, he's got some people out of their complacent "this is all we can expect" mode and actually HOPING. Giving people goals that are in front of them instead of just to the right of them has them talking about possibilities. Even you, tho' you've decided we can't do better than last time's loser.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
88. He is saying that he isn't really backing Bernie for the free stuff or what Bernie wants to do
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 09:30 PM
Aug 2015

but to get the corporations and influence-buyers, the corruption out of the White House.

I says that is enough for him.

It's enough for me to.

Because once we get corruption out of our government, a lot of the people who are in Congress for the connections, because of their connections and who vote for freebies for the guys with money and debt and taxes for the rest of us, will decide that running for Congress or for the White House isn't worth it anymore, and we can have our country back.

It's a good idea to read the OP before posting a response.

He said he understands that Bernie may not get things done. He is saying that right now the most important priority is getting clean government, getting rid of the corruption that the corporations and the wealthy have brought to Washington. And that is enough for him.

We want action on the repeal of the Citizens United decision, and we want it now. We want fair campaign finance laws and much more serious restrictions on people who move from government into the private sector.

AikidoSoul

(2,150 posts)
188. As I go down the line of responses, you are the first one to get A+ on
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 06:30 PM
Sep 2015

comprehension of what the OP is saying.

Thank you JDP.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
93. OK, I'll play: How would Hillary "make more progressive legislation happen" as compared to Bernie?
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 09:53 PM
Aug 2015

What specific legislation is she proposing that will get passed?

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
162. More money for hedge fund managers and investment bankers.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:57 AM
Sep 2015

You know, the people she gets a cool quarter million to speak to.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
169. Don't you know?
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 11:33 AM
Sep 2015

Clinton is not progressive, and neither is the rest of the country. So say many of her supporters.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
132. The country not being progressive must explain why so many red states--
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 03:28 AM
Sep 2015

--have passed minimum wage laws. That Dems keep getting creamed in those states says a lot about how effective our messaging has been.

Dont call me Shirley

(10,998 posts)
185. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 04:29 PM
Sep 2015

"And, of course, the bill is expensive and would be paid for entirely through new taxes, where instead lawmakers could try to find money in the current higher-ed budget that right now isn't being spent very smartly. For instance, the tens of billions of dollars worth of tax breaks Washington offers families to help pay for college disproportionately benefit upper-income households and do little to encourage young people to pursue a higher degree. That money could probably be better spent on a program more like Sanders'."

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
34. How many times have you asked this question
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:02 PM
Aug 2015

only to have it immediately answered in detail and with links.

Old act is old.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
138. She's still pushing that 'Bernie's a pedophile protector' Republican talking point.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 07:45 AM
Sep 2015

At least other HC supporters aren't siding with the convicted felon who produced that commercial.

But some people never learn.

BeanMusical

(4,389 posts)
139. "pedophile protector"???
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 07:54 AM
Sep 2015

WTF? Didn't know about that one, yikes, disgusting. I bet that he also planned 9/11 and was the BFF of Charles Manson.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
140. The ad she posted here goes further, it calls him a pedophile. Here's the link:
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:03 AM
Sep 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251549982

She tried to claim she was posting a news story out of concern for Bernie but just imagine how hard she had to dig in the muck to find that old Republican ad.



BeanMusical

(4,389 posts)
143. Oh wow, I'm speechless.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:43 AM
Sep 2015

I like your reply to this nauseating OP. Yes, despicable and it makes the other HRC supporters look bad.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
144. Not all of them, thankfully. Some of her supporters have integrity.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:45 AM
Sep 2015

They're the ones I try to keep in mind whenever I'm tempted to rec a dishonest hit piece on Hillary.

BeanMusical

(4,389 posts)
146. "Some of her supporters have integrity."
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:50 AM
Sep 2015

Yes, you're right. I guess that I over-reacted, this is such a slimy attack.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
148. No, I didn't mean you!
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:55 AM
Sep 2015

I was just reminding myself not to lash out at them, I have to do that frequently, especially in certain threads.

Between the claims of racism, rape fantasies, gun nuttery and draft dodging it's easy to lash out.



I just keep telling myself that the nastier they get the better Bernie is doing.



BeanMusical

(4,389 posts)
155. Oh, that's nice of you to say that.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:24 AM
Sep 2015

Yes, it's easy to lump good people and not so good ones together and I'm doing that way too often these days so I'll do my best not to lash at the good ones. Good advice. Most of the time I argue when Bernie's record is being twisted and when HRC's one is embellished without anything to back it up.

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
195. What a disgusting smear
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 11:14 AM
Sep 2015

SonderWoman trotting out absurd right wing propaganda, surely this offers no insight to her true political intentions!

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
127. Taxing the rich is just one way.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 02:07 AM
Sep 2015

Reduce military spending. Stop corporate welfare, End off shore banking and tax evasion, etc.

Complete reform of how we pay for everything is needed in this country.

Hillary can't do these things because she is owned by corporations. Bernie is the first real step towards the change this OP is about.

SoapBox

(18,791 posts)
18. They then follow with a big round of...can't, can't, can't, can't, can't....
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:11 PM
Aug 2015

So they say he CAN'T do any of what he says...

That must mean that they are wholly in favor of DINOs siding with Pukes and Baggers, Banksters, Billionaires, Price Gouging School Loans and Interest, War War and more War, Income and Wealthy Inequality, Women NOT being able to Control their own bodies...and it continues.

If you don't support Bernie and his positions, then you are against the vast majority of Americans.

And that ain't Democratic.

MuseRider

(34,111 posts)
35. That can't sounds so much like
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:02 PM
Aug 2015

keeping your powder dry that it almost makes me gag.

Nope, you can't ever hope to change things. BS, it has been done before and all that needs to be done is educate and enthuse. The OP is there, my sons who are in that group are engaged into things again.

That is how movements are started. Movements are how change is made. How could anyone think the same old same old will change anything?

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
151. Exactly. Somehow Republicans always CAN get shit done...
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:05 AM
Sep 2015

...it's only the Democrats who are perpetually helpless.

Some of us are sick and fucking tired of it!!

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
181. Some in Washington are making tons of money...
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 04:08 PM
Sep 2015

...by being "perpetually helpless".

"Its not OUR fault.
"We can't do ANYTHING unless we have 60 votes in the Senate.




George Bush never had 60 Senate votes, and he got almost everything he wanted.
Why are our top Democrats so ineffective?
I keep getting letters saying that if I just send them a little more money,
THEN they can start "getting things done".




Skwmom

(12,685 posts)
135. The corporations are supporting Clinton b/c they want free stuff.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 05:33 AM
Sep 2015

The banks can make all of the risky investments they want and if they lose, the American people pick up the tab.

Of course, I guess they are paying something via "speaking fees" and political donations - so I guess it's not entirely free.
 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
142. Clinton Supporters Acting Like Republicans
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:19 AM
Sep 2015

When they attack Sanders. Are they showing their true colors or do they just want to win the primary that bad. I kid you not, one in another thread said it's a conspiracy theory to suggest Wall St has decided it will be Clinton vs Bush if they can help it. Uh it's been publicly stated by many on Wall St and they even have the same donors. The money doesn't lie. Can't say the same for people.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
6. The poster is not trying to convince you of anything.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 05:34 PM
Aug 2015

The poster is explaining, in wonderful detail, why millennials are not just for Bernie BECAUSE of free college.

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
8. Yeah, don't care.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 05:36 PM
Aug 2015

I'm sorry. You're so right! I need free tuition so I can go back to school and get a second graduate degree. My bad. Top of my list, for sure. I'm certainly not paying my loans with no complaint or expectation of help. Nope! It can't be! It goes against the talking points!

Seriously, I don't care to convince you of anything. I just ask that you don't act like you speak for me.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
108. Have we sunk so low. Obama isn't "going" for free community college. LOL.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:44 PM
Aug 2015

He is a conservative and conservatives don't give a crap about free college. Their corporate sponsors make millions off of college debts. What has H. Clinton said about free college?

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
118. So you meant that he " is going for free community college" just like he was "going to close Gitmo".
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 12:18 AM
Sep 2015

He will call his friend Boner and Boner will say "no f'n way" and bingo-bango that's it. You think after 6 years he is now giving a crap about college debt? Just like he didn't give a crap about police killing unarmed black men, or the police militarizing and kicking the crap out of peaceful demonstrators. He does give a crap about fracking, drone killing and Arctic drilling.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
154. Are you serious? He has compromised on many issues, gun control for one.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:17 AM
Sep 2015

He wants to stop the golden parachutes but his wife took one. I don't think I would get started on he doesn't compromise.

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
156. I don't think you know what "compromise" means,..
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:24 AM
Sep 2015

And, if one of your two examples is "his wife" did something personal, then you've already lost.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
158. Compromise is an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:37 AM
Sep 2015

concessions.

You posted:
Sure, but at least we know that Bernie would never compromise on his position. n/t

Gotcha, maybe Bernie does compromise his position.

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
161. How did you get me? I know what compromise means, and you still don't.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:53 AM
Sep 2015

Bernie didn't compromise with himself on gun control, and his wife making a personal financial decision is irrelevant to Bernie as a politician.

BeanMusical

(4,389 posts)
160. "gun control for one"
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:50 AM
Sep 2015
Washington (CNN) Bernie Sanders says he favors gun control measures just as strongly as his Democratic presidential rivals, touting his rural-state roots as key to his chances of enacting real, constructive legislation.

In an interview with CNN's Jake Tapper Sunday on "State of the Union," the Vermont senator touted his career D- rating from the National Rifle Association.

"I do not accept the fact that I have been weak on this issue. In fact, I have been strong on this issue," Sanders said. "And in fact, coming from a rural state which has almost no gun control, I think I can get beyond the noise and all of these arguments and people shouting at each other, and come up with real, constructive gun control legislation which most significantly gets guns out of the hands of people who should not have them."

He said he voted for a semi-automatic gun ban, for instant background checks on gun buyers and to end a loophole that allows below-the-radar purchases at gun shows.


Watch the video: http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/30/politics/bernie-sanders-gun-control-2016/

And please prove if he's lying about his voting record.
 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
165. Big difference. Sen Sanders will of course have trouble. Not only with Republicons but also
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 10:40 AM
Sep 2015

with the Corp-Wing of the Democratic Party. Difference is, Sanders will try.

beerandjesus

(1,301 posts)
157. My question is, has he done anything about it since January?
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:25 AM
Sep 2015

Note the date on that article. If it were a Republican pushing it, we'd be hearing about it non-stop. Obama floats it, all the liberals get excited about it (including me, I'm not too cynical to admit it), and then..... crickets.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
166. Yep, he and the conservative wing of the Party like to "float it". I think he should be working
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 10:44 AM
Sep 2015

with the Democrats in Congress and initiating bill after bill aimed at jobs, infrastructure, lower drug prices, etc. and going on TV and slamming the Repugs every damn day, pointing out their obstructionism. What does he do? He works with the Republicons trying to get a bi-partisan Free Trade Agreement that will "frack" the workers of this country.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
25. Since this is the General Discussion Primaries board...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:50 PM
Aug 2015

May I ask why you, a millennial still choose to support Hillary? I'm all for respecting peoples choices, but as a discussion forum, I wouldn't mind discussing your reasoning behind your choice.

If you'd rather not discuss it, I can respect that.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
38. You are advocating for your candidate; it seems like you should be proud to say which of these
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:10 PM
Aug 2015

positions you agree with her on:

1. “I believe that, when you have so few banks with so much power, you have to not only reestablish Glass-Steagall, but you have got to break them up. That is not Hillary Clinton’s position.”

2. “I believe that our trade policies, NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, have been a disaster. I am helping to lead the effort against the Trans-Pacific Partnership. That is not Hillary Clinton’s position.”

3. “We have to be aggressive in transforming our energy system away from fossil fuel, and defeat the Keystone pipeline. That is not Hillary Clinton’s position.”

4. “I believe that, as opposed to my Republican colleagues who want to cut Social Security, I believe we should expand Social Security by lifting the cap on taxable income. That’s not Hillary Clinton’s position.”

5. “I believe that we have got to raise the minimum wage over a period of several years to $15 an hour – not Hillary Clinton’s position.”

6. “I voted against the war in Iraq. Hillary Clinton voted for it.”

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
46. Nope, I agree
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:18 PM
Aug 2015

You only owe yourself answers, like to the question, "If I don't agree with my candidate's positions, why am I supporting him or her?"

Metric System

(6,048 posts)
49. Thank you for helping me to decide to take a break (possibly permanently) from DU. Your comments are
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:27 PM
Aug 2015

way out of line. If you think this kind of behavior makes me want to support your candidate, then you're sadly mistaken.

Metric System

(6,048 posts)
53. When I say I don't owe you an explanation, you should respect that. Instead, you've followed me into
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:31 PM
Aug 2015

another thread and have demanded I explain to you why I support Hillary Clinton. If you don't see what's wrong with that, then I don't know what else to say.

LondonReign2

(5,213 posts)
58. Well no. I asked you there and you did not answer (which is quite different from you saying you
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:41 PM
Aug 2015

said I didn't owe you an explanation there).

So yes, on a political message board I asked you which of your preferred candidate's positions you agreed with. You told me you didn't owe me an explanation and I agreed.

That would have been the end of it but you wanted to pretend that you had somehow been aggrieved merely by asking why you supported your candidate. On a political message board.



 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
109. It does come across as antagonistic to keep pressing
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:50 PM
Aug 2015

I generally don't like when people follow me around going "why are doing that?" Fortunately in real life there are consequences for being annoying.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
45. if by politely addressing you and asking questions, is stalking, than yes
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:17 PM
Aug 2015

that poster is stalking you.

Metric System

(6,048 posts)
52. Cali, I don't badger you about why you support Sanders, so I would hope to have the same respect
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:30 PM
Aug 2015

shown to me. The tone the other poster took is completely unacceptable to me. I have a right to support who I want and I don't owe anyone any explanations for my reasons. My vote, my choice.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
82. So you are thread-stalking me.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:25 PM
Aug 2015

What would that have to do with anything if anyone was "thread stalking" you?

It is possible to remember posts and their posters without stalking, y'know.

kath

(10,565 posts)
64. MetricSystem - if you don't like LR's tone, retrowire politely asked you to explain your support of
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:46 PM
Aug 2015

HRC a few minutes earlier. Why not answer him/her?

Metric System

(6,048 posts)
68. Because I don't have to EXPLAIN my support to anyone. I have many good reasons for supporting HRC
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:58 PM
Aug 2015

and I have talked about them in other threads. However, this demand that I justify why I support Hillary is really rubbing me the wrong way. With that being said, farewell DU (for now).

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
85. However, this demand
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:30 PM
Aug 2015

No one's demanded anything of you.

It is curious why you don't answer the question. (I mean you brought up your support.) Especially if you have elsewhere. You could just link to your other posts if your fingers are too tired.

dougolat

(716 posts)
178. 'Still with Hill" ...yes, very still.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 03:13 PM
Sep 2015

(some are aiming higher)

But not to worry, won't pester you for reasons.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
9. Yes, you are totally right.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 05:37 PM
Aug 2015

This is a "must" for your generation and your children.
I hope a lot of you realize that.

We, old fogies can help and support you, but it all
about your generation and the next.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
172. Ya see, the kids have a different lingo. So you got to use it to connect with them
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:07 PM
Sep 2015

Or some such bullshit.

GitRDun

(1,846 posts)
17. Definitely a legitimate reason to stick with Sanders
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 05:45 PM
Aug 2015

I personally don't think there's anything wrong with that.

There is no way to deny the connected relationships and money associated with the Clintons.

The real purpose of my comment is to applaud the effort at non-Presidential races.

With the House gerrymandered, state and local is very important.

60 votes makes the Senate races crucial too.

Peace

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
19. Thank you. I am so thankful that you younger people
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:25 PM
Aug 2015

are here and that we oldies can join in to be of help to take our country back for the people. Lead well - we all need you.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
21. It is the work of the right wing and the ruling class and their bootlickers...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:41 PM
Aug 2015

who use the "free shit" narrative to describe human needs that should be rights for all without condition in a just and equitable society. Democratic Underground has a steady supply of Neoliberal, "libertarian", and right-wing lifetime social scabs who live in a bubble and are working in the trenches to keep that narrative alive. Call out their bullshit for what it is and don't become one of them. As it stands your post is full of "libertarian" outrage and "I and ME."

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
48. Well, it is a post about why I support Bernie...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:24 PM
Aug 2015

But I understand what you're saying. I'm just sick and tired of being told why I support him and that it's only for promises for free things. Why can't we have legitimate discussion without this bull? Gotta love the internet. It's easy to get angry and rant on.

Here's the thing. Yes, I'm angry. Yes, my number one priority is to get money out of politics because I believe that's the only way we will begin to make the real change that's needed. I believe it undermines our government and is our first step to changing this country. Does that mean that I don't support universal healthcare, expanding social security, etc? No. I support the majority of Bernie's positions and ideas. I hope we do get many of these things because I want a better life for everyone, as I said in my OP. However, I know it takes work, and I know what my priority is for him if he gets in office.

On a side note, it's hard being blue when you live in Alabama because it's a constant fight against republican talking points. Too many around here on both sides are using republican talking points, and it makes me want to avoid DU because I get enough of it in person. I'd forgotten the 2008 primaries. We might as well be arguing on a comment thread on Facebook about Bernie the socialist. It's just as bad.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
72. I understand what you're saying...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:08 PM
Aug 2015

it's hard to avoid the "I" when taking positions sometimes. I do it myself at times and will do it now. I will take a stand with anyone who puts labor ,the working class, and the struggling and exploited over the priorities of the ruling class and the owners. Leftists are interested in working class power, political power, and the workers controlling our own destiny. Maybe we agree on some of that. I think I jumped the gun on that post. You probably read a lot of the crap coming from Clinton supporters on that millennial thread yesterday and wanted to respond in a strong way.The "free shit" stuff was sickening. Take no offense on my post. It was somewhat assholish and judgmental. And it doesn't matter where one lives. Working class allies are all over this country.

Solidarity

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
84. Oh, no offense taken.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:27 PM
Aug 2015

I believe it helped calm my ire a bit. The millennial thread did completely set me off. No need to explain.

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
83. You're confusing libertarian with right wing.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:25 PM
Aug 2015

libertarian is neither right wing nor left wing, but speaks to non-authoritarian views. Hillary and Bill Clinton, George Bush, and Obama would be examples of authoritarians, of right-center and right (Bush) varieties.

Examples of a right libertarian would be Ron Paul and left libertarians would be Noam Chomsky and Thomas Jefferson.

Bernie will attract non-authoritarians, more of the left, but many from the right, and of course the center. And he will attract those who could care less what category they fall into, just responding to what they hear and feel is the truth, believing that he is a candidate who will fight for them. Bernie will do that, and has done that all of his life.

And he will attract the status quo eventually as the groundswell sweeps them in.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
96. Sanders will ..."he will attract those who could care less what category they fall into..."
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:05 PM
Aug 2015

and that is how it should be. Which is why the younger crowd is paying attention to those candidates not in a mainstream party.







 

AOR

(692 posts)
101. Anyone who doesn't stand with the working class and labor over capital...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:13 PM
Aug 2015

and prioritize the human needs of the whole over the profits of the few is right-wing to me regardless of what brand or label they are promoting. Yes... I understand the distinctions between left and right wing libertarians and don't put much stock in either label. "Libertarianism" is a meaningless ideal. Chomsky and Colin Jenkins for example understand the role class-struggle plays in societies. Doesn't mean I'm on board with "left-libertarianism" as a political solution or throwing Marx under the bus which many of the "Socialist-Libertarians" like to do.

Leftists don't fight for capitalist politicians or parties but for the people on the ground and societal change. If Sanders can help raise awareness on the ground in the fight for Social/Economic justice and some demands and reforms for the working class as a whole... then that is a good thing as far as it goes. Bernie Sanders running as a Democrat as the final answer of working class demands and working class power is not the final word for leftists. The current Democratic Party is beholden to capital over labor and that is concrete reality. It would take a miracle for Bernie Sanders to change that without extreme pressure from mass movements and organization forcing change behind his Presidency if he should get elected.


Anyway you might find this interesting in regards to the right-wing "libertarians." Cheers

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Anonymous and the Not-So-Spontaneous Birth of the Libertarian "Movement"

(Posted in full with the permission of the writer)

Disclaimer: This is not a conspiracy story, though it has all the elements of one. Anonymous shadowy figures, international "societies", complete political "ideologies" created for convenience alone, social institutions corrupted through the mere distribution of cash (science, politics, universities, governments and even the Nobel Prize), and a global strategy designed to "rule the world" - no doubt about it, this one is better than a novel. But, don't get carried away. There are no secret ceremonies or lizard people in this tale. Nor is it a story about groups named after Italian light fixtures or German beer. It is instead the story of how "everyday conspiracies" work.

Karl Marx wrote that the ruling ideas of any age are the ideas of its ruling class. Looking backward, it is hard to dispute this observation, but how does it actually work? That is what our story is about. It starts with the businessman below and his simple frustration at the success of Marxism as an idea, first among his own workers and then amongst the American establishment whose wide-spread adoption of the appropriately conciliatory "New-Dealism" was entirely in response. In an economic system in which everything is reduced to a commodity, a man of means should be able to simply buy a counter-idea, shouldn't he? So it turns out...


William S. Volker (1859-1947)

Mr. Anonymous

William Volker, alias "Mr. Anonymous," alias the "First Citizen" of Kansas City, Missouri, "was an extremely modest, enormously wealthy home-furnishings tycoon. He became the unrecognized donor of thousands of gifts, large and small."

Volker was born on April 1, 1859 into a prosperous household in Hanover, Germany. At age 12, Volker's family immigrated to Chicago. At 17 he went to work for a picture frame manufacturer. With the death of his employer in 1882, Volker bought out the company and moved the enterprise to Kansas City. From there, his "little window shade business" grew into a national giant.

In 1911, 52 year old William Volker married. Returning from his honeymoon, he announced he had put one million dollars in his wife's name and, he said, intended to give the rest of his enormous fortune away. Over the next 36 years, he donated millions of dollars, much of it anonymously. When Volker died at age 88 on November 4, 1947, many schools, parks, and public spaces were named for the furnishings tycoon.

So why pick on this guy?

The answer is that the overwhelming priority of Volker's "philanthropy" was focused, not on public spaces but on reactionary ideology. Dismayed by the rise of Socialism in America and doubly dismayed by what he saw as the evolution of government and political thinking towards accommodation and a "new liberalism", eventually personified by the widespread adoption of the economic views of John Maynard Keynes and the New Deal policies of Franklin Roosevelt, Volker set out to create a new and much more reactionary "mainstream" ideology based loosely around his own ideas of "laissez-faire" capitalism (i.e. a largely unregulated economy) and social Darwinism (the pseudo-scientific notion that in society, unhindered competition would allow the "cream to rise to the top&quot .

In truth, Volker was no great scholar or thinker. The ideology he set out to create was built upside down, starting only with a set of foggy conclusions for which he had a predisposition. From these conclusions, it was the task of Volker's considerable fortune to find a set of justifications, then an enabling ideology or "theory" that gave it all perspective and unity and, eventually, a true philosophical platform from which to launch the whole. But if this task was analogous to building the Great Pyramid, starting from the top, Volker was undaunted. He may not have had a brain but he had money... and he had a personal connection to one of the most reactionary sections of that most reactionary of organizations - the National Association of Manufacturers. Volker's "associates", who would all participate closely, included Jasper Crane of DuPont, B. E. Hutchinson of Chrysler, Henry Weaver of General Electric, Pierre Goodrich of B.F. Goodrich, and Richard Earhart of White Star Oil (which through many mergers and aquistions would eventually become Mobil Oil). Moreover, Volker had "influence" at the leading scholarly institution in his home town: The University of Chicago, founded by none other than John D. Rockefeller and created with a certain ideological "bent".

In 1932 Volker established the William Volker Fund and, with that, started on the road to becoming perhaps the most significant anonymous asshole of our times. In every way, William S. Volker was the true "father" of Libertarianism and Modern Conservatism.

For the first dozen years, the fund largely floundered. There is some evidence that Volker may have flirted with Fascism. That ideology though, which attracted such celebrities as Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh, was thought to have a limited future in America. In the face of Keynesian economics, widespread social spending, and the CIO, what was really required was a return to pre-New Deal economic policy and an anti-communist/anti-union social policy.


Eureka!

The breakthrough came in 1944, when Volker's nephew, Harold Luhnow, took over, first the business and then the Fund. In the same year, Friedrich Hayek's The Road to Serfdom was published. The book was a product of the "Austrian School" of economists, originating at the University of Vienna and first coming to modest prominence at the end of the 19th century in its attacks on Marxist and Socialist economics. Hayek's book was an almost mystical (and hysterical) defense of laissez-faire capitalism and the "free market". According to Hayek, market prices created a "spontaneous order, or what is referred to as 'that which is the result of human action but not of human design'. Thus, Hayek put the price mechanism on the same level as, for example, language." In turn, any attempt at regulation would inevitably lead to "totalitarianism" and in this, both Marxist and New Deal "socialism" were essentially similar. The theory was perfect . Volker and Luhnow had found their ideology. The cash began to flow.

In short order, the Volker Fund and its larger network arranged for the re-publication of Hayek's book by the University of Chicago (a recurring and important connection) despite the fact that it had been almost universally rejected by the Economics establishment. A year later, the book was published in serial form by the ultra-reactionary Readers Digest not withstanding the fact that it was supposed to be a "scholarly text", ordinarily inappropriate for the readership of the Digest, and despite the fact that it had also had been panned by literary critics. In 1950, the Fund arranged for Hayek to secure a position at the University of Chicago and when the University only granted an unpaid position, they arranged for the Earhart Foundation to pay him a salary. Hayek was only the first of a veritable flood of émigré, "scholars".

Recruiting the Homeless

Hayek's teacher in Vienna had been one Ludwig von Mises who, in turn, had been the student of Eugen von Boehm-Bawerk (who had gained fame for his attack on Marxist Economics) and who, in his turn, had been the student of Carl Menger, the founder of the Austrian school. Each of these had published several books that were virulent attacks on Socialism and defended "pure capitalism". It was all very good. Von Mises book was called Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis and it too had been received with yawns when it was published in English in 1936.

While von Mises really had "taught" at the University of Vienna, his was an unpaid position. The University had turned him down on four separate occasions for a paid position. Not surprisingly, in 1940 the nearly destitute von Mises had emigrated to the United States. In 1945, an unpaid "visting professorship" was obtained for him at NYU while his salary was paid by "businessmen such as Lawrence Fertig". Fertig was an associate of the Volker Fund and a friend of Henry Hazlitt, the Fund's friendliest journalist. In all, they would fund von Mises for 25 years and von Mises never would need a "real job".

In fact, this was typical of the Fund's "bait and switch" tactic for developing resumes. In the United States, von Mises was the "famed economics professor from the University of Vienna". In Europe, he would become the "famous American economist from NYU".


Local Reinforcements

The economist Milton Friedman, during his fifteen minutes of fame, took the opportunity of the publication of his opus, Capitalism and Freedom to decry the shabby treatment that the likes of Hayek and Mises had received from the Economics "establishment". On his own similar reception, he wrote in the 1982 preface of his book:

"Those of us who were deeply concerned about the danger to freedom and prosperity from the growth of government, from the triumph of welfare-state and Keynesian ideas, were a small beleaguered minority regarded as eccentrics by the great majority of our fellow intellectuals.

Even seven years later, when this book was first published, its views were so far out of the mainstream that it was not reviewed by any major national publication--not by the New York Times or the Herald Tribune (then still being published in New York) or the Chicago Tribune, or by Time or Newsweek or even the Saturday Review--though it was reviewed by the London Economist and by the major professional journals. And this for a book directed at the general public, written by a professor at a major U.S. university, and destined to sell more than 400,000 copies in the next eighteen years."

It is attractive to believe that Friedman was really this foolish and that his expertise in the "politics of fame" was similar to his expertise in Monetary Policy. In fact, his separate acknowledgements of the importance of the Volker Fund belie this possibility. In truth, the Fund and its progeny identified Friedman early on, shepherded his career at the University of Chicago, subsidized him through a paid lecture series (which eventually were combined into Capitalism and Freedom), paid his way to Mont Pelerin, arranged for the serialization of his book by Reader's Digest, and bought a signifcant number of the books that Friedman was so proud of "selling".

Friedman was only one of dozens of such local "scholars" who were suddenly "discovered" through the efforts of the Fund.

The Fund also now began to recruit friendly young "future-scholars" and subsidize their development. Not only was the cause thus advanced, but a modest intelligence network became a part of the "Libertarian Movement". One such early recruit was Murray Rothbard, later to become famous as the "father" of "Left Libertarianism", "Libertarian anarchism", and "anarco-capitalism". Later much castigated for his "sellout to the Right-wing Republicans", Rothbard had, from the first, been intimately wrapped up in Anti-Communism, McCarthyism, the "Old Right", and the right-wing ideology of the Volker Fund. It was through the Fund that he became an associate of Ayn Rand and a student of Mises.

"Rothbard began his consulting work for the Volker Fund in 1951. This relationship lasted until 1962, when the VF was dissolved. A major part of Rothbard's work for the VF consisted of reading and evaluating books, journal articles, and other materials. On the basis of written reports by Rothbard and another reader - Rose Wilder Lane - the VF's directors would decide whether to undertake massive distribution of particular works to public libraries.

The VF also asked Rothbard to submit reports on particular questions, such as how to rank sundry economists in terms of friendliness to the free market, surveys of the literature on monopoly, Soviet wage structures, etc., etc. Rothbard's memos number several hundred, covering works in economics, history, philosophy, and political science. The memos, which range in length from one page to seventy pages, provide a window into the scholarship of the period - and Rothbard's views on that scholarship. They thereby shed much light on Rothbard's emerging worldview and his systematic defense of liberty."

They also shed "much light" on how the Fund decided which "scholars" to promote, and which to attack. Rothbard later called his work with the Volker Fund, "the best job I've ever had in my life".

Multiplying Like Rabbits

In support of the imported scholars and the new ideology, the Volker Fund also pioneered a process which would become the hallmark of the "Libertarian Movement". The Fund started to spin-off organizations by the boatload, each intended, not just to serve specific purposes but to give the appearance of many "independent" efforts spawned by a "mass" appeal. The list of "begats" is too numerous to chronicle but the first set are illuminating.

Among the very first "front organizations" of the Volker Fund was the "National Book Foundation". While the Foundation's affiliation to the Volker Fund was not hidden, it was circumspect enough to suggest, even to most "Libertarians", that it was independent. The fund began modestly enough by distributing free copies Eugene Böhm-Bawerk's works to thousands of libraries and universities across the country. As the Volker efforts geared up, the Foundation began to distribute millions of books from dozens of authors, all coming from the Fund's stables. Many educational "incentives" were initiated such as "teach a course on Hayek, get 10 (or 100) textbooks for free"...

The Foundation for Economic Education was spun out in 1946, under the leadership of Leonard Read, a leading figure in the Chambers of Commerce. The grand-daddy of all libertarian "think-tanks", the FEE initiated the original Mont Pelerin Society meetings. Its own publication, The Freeman, became the founding journal of "Libertarianism". The rent was paid by Volker.

The Institute for Humane Studies was created by Floyd "Baldy" Harper, the "ace recruiter" of the Volker Fund, in 1961. The IHS identified and subsidized "bright young students" and "promising scholars" friendly to the new "Libertarian" doctrine. Not only did the IHS fund thousands of "students", but it spawned dozens of similar organizations throughout the world. After the Volker Fund was finally closed, subsidies for the IHS shifted to some of the most reactionary organizations in America: The Scaife Foundation, Koch Family Foundations, The Bradley Foundation, and the Carthage Foundation.

The Intercollegiate Studies Institute was founded in 1953 to combat what they would eventually call "political correctness" and "'left-bias" in colleges and universities. The organization now consists of 50,000 college students and faculty and through its lavish subsidies, sponsors dozens of programs representing the entire spectrum of right-wing "Libertarian" causes. The first president of the ISI was a young William F. Buckley Jr.


The Earhart Foundation was created by and named for Richard Earhart of White Star Oil, one of Volker's original collaborators in the National Assosciation of Manufacturers. This foundation was used to subsidize various émigrés and not only financed Hayek but also Eric Voegelin, yet another "Austrian". Through Voeglin, the Earhardt Foundation became connected with the infamous Leo Strauss and, since then, various "projects" of not just a "libertarian" but of a "neo-conservative" perspective have been beneficiaries of the Foundation. In addition, The Earhart Foundation helped to pioneer still another use of the newly-emergent Libertarian think-tanks. As the network of these think-tanks grew, they undertook not only to promote ideology but also specific points of policy, particularly in support of private corporations. The culmination of the Foundation's efforts in this direction came with the founding of the George C. Marshall Institute in 1984. The Institute was initially a foremost proponent of the Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), heavily promoted by the Defense Industry, and later became the leading non-industry critic of "Climate Change". The CEO of the Institute is currently a registered lobbysist for ExxonMobil.

Through the list of organizations, above, the Volker Fund's near-biblical "begats" encompass nearly every single prominent individual and organization of the "Libertarian" and "New Conservative" movements of today.

The Not-So-Secret Society

Quote:
In 1947, 39 scholars, mostly economists, with some historians and philosophers, were invited by Professor Friedrich Hayek to meet at Mont Pelerin, Switzerland, and discuss the state, and possible fate of classical liberalism and to combat the "state ascendancy and Marxist or Keynesian planning sweeping the globe". Invitees included Henry Simons (who would later train Milton Friedman, a future president of the society, at the University of Chicago); the American former-Fabian socialist Walter Lippmann; Viennese Aristotelian Society leader Karl Popper; fellow Austrian School economist Ludwig von Mises; Sir John Clapham, a senior official of the Bank of England who from 1940-6 was the president of the British Royal Society; Otto von Habsburg, the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne; and Max von Thurn und Taxis, Bavaria-based head of the 400-year-old Venetian Thurn und Taxis family.


If the above rings of "Bohemian Grove" and similar fodder for conspiracies, it is because informal "retreats" at out-of-the-way resorts are one of the favorite methods by which the wealthy of many countries formulate a common international policy. What distinguishes the Mont Pelerin Society, however, is that it did not consist primarily of the wealthy. Instead, it was comprised of a majority of marginal, thread-bare "scholars", united only by their common hatred of "socialism" and Keynesianism (which were one and the same for most of them) and sprinkled with only a handful of rich patrons and journalists. In fact the Mount Pelerin Society was organized as much by the Volker Fund as by Hayek himself and the Foundation paid the way for all 10 of the American "participants".

Once in Switzerland, the "scholars" agreed on their hatred of "socialism" but on little else except to meet yearly to "facilitate an exchange of ideas between like-minded scholars in the hope of strengthening the principles and practice of a free society and to study the workings, virtues, and defects of market-oriented economic systems."

From this not-so-secret-but-thoroughly-right-wing society's more than humble beginnings, the phoenix of laissez-faire capitalism would rise, propelled skyward by unlimited funds. Over a dozen of the scholars who could not previously get a job, a review, or a book deal would go on to win the "Nobel Prize in Economics" (this "epic" story will be told separately). More importantly, the Mont Pelerin Society would itself beget 500 foundations and organizations in nearly 80 countries... again with strategic contributions from Mr. Anonymous. Once transformed into an "international movement", there was no end to what was possible. One example tells the story.

Initiated at Mont Pelerin and copying the FEE, the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) was created in London in 1955. Serving as a conduit for both cash and "ideas", the IEA set about the task of "rejuvenating" the dead and decaying British Tories. By 1985, the "Iron Lady", Margaret Thatcher, would positively gush on the occasion of the Institute's 30th Anniversary: "You created the atmosphere which made our victory possible... May I say how thankful we are to those who joined your great endeavor. They were the few, but they were right, and they saved Britain." With that, the IEA begat the Atlas Economic Research Foundation, which in turn created a network of over 50 "think-tanks" in more than 30 countries.

And what were the scale of these efforts? John Blundell, the head of the IEA, in a speech to the Heritage Foundation, and Atlas in 1990, would identify a rare failure in the Society's efforts. Shaking his head at the abortive attempt to subsidize academic "Chairs of Free Enterprise" in dozens of countries throughout the world, Blundell complained about wasting, "hundreds of millions, perhaps one billion dollars". This was just one initiative among many.

Oceans of Cash

Aaron Director was a lawyer and Ukrainian émigré whose sister had married Milton Friedman prior to the Second World War. That then became the connection which led to the Volker Fund's subsidy of Director and his association with the University of Chicago. He was one of the fund's "imports", alongside Von Mises. Director's collaborator at the University was Edward Levi who would eventually go on to become the President of the University and then Attorney General of the United States. Together, Director and Levi were instrumental in the development of the Chicago School of Economics, or the conquest by the Economics department of the School of Business and the Law School.

The Law School? What does law have to do with economics? The answer was everything according to Director, who developed a theory of "Law and Economics" (called, without tongue-in-cheek, the L&E "Movement'), stressing free-enterprise principles and the primacy of property law as well as measuring legal rulings with longer-term economic criteria. "He founded the Journal of Law & Economics in 1958... that helped to unite the fields of law and economics with far-reaching influence." The journal was, of course, funded in large part by what had now become a substantial network of Volker affiliates. Despite the fact that he himself wrote virtually nothing throughout his career, "Director influenced a generation of jurists, including Robert Bork, Richard Posner, Antonin Scalia and Chief Justice William Rehnquist."


John M. Olin

One part of what made such a thing possible was not just new territories in which to sell the tired old "economic" ideas, but also new benefactors who spread the message far and wide. In this case, perhaps the most important new "convert" was the munitions magnate, John M. Olin and his Foundation:

"...John M. Olin was disturbed by a building takeover at his alma mater, Cornell University. At the age of 80, he decided that he must pour his time and resources into preserving the free market system that had allowed him to acquire his own wealth. The Foundation is most notable for its early support and funding of the law and economics movement, a discipline that applies incentive-based thinking and cost-benefit analysis to the field of legal theory. Olin believed that law schools have a disproportionately large impact on society given their size and to this end decided to focus the majority of his funding there."

Between 1969 and 2005, when the Foundation disbanded, the John M. Olin Foundation disbursed no less than $370 Million, "primarily to conservative think tanks, media outlets, and law programs at influential universities. The Foundation is most notable for its early support and funding of the law and economics movement."

But that was not the only thing that the Olin foundation promoted. Through its contacts at the University of Chicago, the Olin Fund ran into political sciences professor Leo Strauss:

Quote:
Strauss taught that liberalism in its modern form contained within it an intrinsic tendency towards relativism, which in turn led to two types of nihilism ("Epilogue&quot .<2> The first was a "brutal" nihilism, expressed in Nazi and Marxist regimes. These ideologies, both descendants of Enlightenment thought, tried to destroy all traditions, history, ethics, and moral standards and replace it by force with a supreme authority under which nature and mankind are subjugated and conquered.<4> The second type -- the "gentle" nihilism expressed in Western liberal democracies -- was a kind of value-free aimlessness and hedonism, which he saw as permeating the fabric of contemporary American society.<5> In the belief that 20th century relativism, scientism, historicism, and nihilism were all implicated in the deterioration of modern society and philosophy, Strauss sought to uncover the philosophical pathways that had led to this situation. The resultant study led him to revive classical political philosophy as a source by which political action could be judged.


Well, it was not exactly the same thing but it was close enough... and, with its further evolution, "neo-liberalism" would abandon the "classical liberals" in favor of medieval scholars, thus coming much closer to a "synergy". Meanwhile, for both, "classical political philosophy" was, of course, synonymous with political reaction. The unmentioned irony was that the critique of Straussianism, that it was "crudely anti-democratic, obsessed with secret meanings and in love with white lies told by powerful men to keep the rabble in line" applied neatly as a summation of the "classical liberalism" or "Libertarian" movement as a whole. In addition to its Libertarian mission, The Olin Foundation became a founder and one of the principal funding sources for the Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

Extending their reach, the inheritors of Mr. Anonymous' legacy, also set about creating umbrella organizations for Libertarian funding sources dedicated to funding the "counter-intelligentsia." These extended from newly created, shadowy and "anonymous" Foundations to the famous think-tanks (such as Cato, Hoover, and Hudson) to the infamous (such as the Scaife Foundation). As the network has grown, the financing of "scholars" has been supplemented by the adoption of campaigns, not just in the name of "Capitalism", "Freedom", and "Liberty" in general, but on behalf of individual capitalists in particular. Today there is virtually no public campaign, against anti-tobacco legislation, against environmental legislation, rejecting climate change theory, on behalf of HMOs and private health care, against pharmaceutical regulation and so on - outside of industry and trade associations - that does not originate within the network created or touched by Mr. Anonymous. Today the size of the cash flow is not counted in millions or hundreds of millions or in billions, but in tens of billions, and perhaps even more.

But, what about "ideas"?

In our search for cash and connections without parallel, it might be argued that we have missed the "great ideas" of Libertarianism. The simple explanation is that there are none. Beyond a pro forma agreement on the evils of Marxism, Keynesianism, and "big government" and a thoroughly mystical, near religious belief in capitalism and "free-markets", reduced to paper-thin slogans such as "Personal Freedom" and "Individual Liberty", there is no other point of consensus. Pressed beyond such platitudes, the "theoreticians" of this "movement" have always descended into the most bitter disagreements about the most substantial of issues. Such might easily be suspected of an "ideology" that embraces a political spectrum which includes right-wing Republicans, and neo conservatives and neo liberals and neo-Fascist Ayn Randians, and "classical Liberals" and Libertarian Party members, and "anarchists".

The economic historian, Jamie Peck, in setting out to write a history of the theories of the Austrian School, was dismayed to find that he could not find an "Aha moment" in that history, nor could he see substantial points of agreement between any of the authors (beyond the obvious), nor could he detect a coherent point-of-view that remained constant amongst any one of them for long. "There was nothing spontaneous about neo-liberalism; it was
speculatively planned, it was opportunistically built, and it has been repeatedly reconstructed", wrote Peck.

We will deal with this subject in accompanying material, but for the moment it should be said that even the above misses the point. Beyond congenital disagreements, the embrace of Libertarian Economics as political slogan from the beginning meant that the "science" (and it is only as "economic science" that the ideology has ever had even nominal roots) was still-born, no matter how miserable its stock in trade may have turned out to be. Hayek said as much at the time of his "Nobel Prize". He complained that Serfdom. had ended his "career" as an "economist" and implied that it began his life as an "ideologist". No matter what illusions he may have harbored as to his own "destiny", the comment passes down to us as the complaints of a paid shill of the real Libertarian "science" - the science of propoganda, a wholly owned subsidiary of the Volker Fund - with Hayek only counting as just another whiney paid-professional, complaining about his job-title.

There is no evidence that the much larger irony ever occurred to Hayek:

Tens, perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars, hundreds of millions of books, hundreds of journals, dozens of universities, tens of thousands of people and thousands of professorships, and so on in a network touching virtually everyone in the "Western Democracies" - all of it centrally planned, all of it subsidized, none of it capable of existing by itself in the commercial marketplace or in the "marketplace of ideas" and all of it failing dozens of times until hooked into the river of cash produced by the the simple subsidies of the rich designed to derail the "free" evolution of ideas as they were actually proceeding... is there any such example in all of human history of a "movement" so far at odds with its own self-proclaimed "principles"? No problem, though, for William S. Volker, for whom "belief" was always optional. Mr. Anonymous got exactly what he paid for.


*****

For anyone who would attempt to understand class societies, the unmediated slogans of those same societies are the worst possible places to begin. For feudal societies, slogans such as "Chivalry", "Honor", "Fealty", "Chastity", "Virtue" and the like, underlay a social fabric that was monstrous, arbitrary, and treacherous. In most cases the slogans hid social truths which were the exact opposite of their rhetorical claims. The cruelty of the joke was not fully apparent until the end times of feudalism itself or, perhaps, even after.

In our own times, the slogans which have replaced these are those of "Freedom", "Liberty", "Democracy", "Enterprise", "Individuality", and so on. It is impossible to know the meaning of these as given and even more unlikely that one may make of them as one may wish. In the present society, they are like virgin forests that one may stumble upon while walking. No matter how pristine and unfettered such may appear, in our contemporary social system that forest is inevitably someone's private property and is thus absolutely resistant to any other appropriation.

So too, it is the same with "Freedom" and "Liberty". No matter how one may "choose" to think of them, in truth they have only one source and one meaning.

The current stakeholder for those terms is the anonymous asshole above, William Volker. He mined the ore, refined the technique, processed the product, and merchandised the result; finally sending the finished commodity out on rivers of cash, no less so than Henry Ford did with his automobiles. As with all other industrial Barons of his time, that he knew nothing of the actual ideas, processes, and practices meant nothing at all. He bought them, he paid for them, he owned them, and in the process, he spawned the liberty industry, a multi-billion dollar monopoly which today owns "the marketplace of ideas". So too, just as with Ford, the complete legacy of his "works" becomes apparent only now.


A Postscript:

As far as a postscript goes, we end as we began - with yet more fodder for conspiracy theorists. The William S. Volker Fund closed up shop in 1974, secure in the fact that it's "mission" had been taken up by others. The last millions in the Fund were passed on to the ultra-conservative Hoover Institution. What were not passed on were the files of the Volker Fund, which mysteriously disappeared. The entire paper trail documenting where the money had come from, how it was spent and who was "touched" by it, all of this disappeared with a "poof". Three decades after he died, Volker seems to have guaranteed his anonymity in perpetuity and to this day nothing but the vague outlines of this story are known. And so it goes...

By anaxarchos

http://www.thebellforum.com/content.php?r=14-Not-So-Spontaneous-Birth-of-the-Libertarian-Movement



ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
119. Yes, first he is a champion of working class and social issues.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 12:23 AM
Sep 2015

Regarding libertarian thinking, small l or large L, they will be attracted too, for his anti-authoritarian philosophy. For example, he was the only one who voted against the IWR. Libertarians, libertarians, small l democrats, socialists, social democrats, and many others, had a similar position. He will need a broad political movement to win, beyond working class and social issues, that includes environmental, economic (audit the FED, as he did), reigning in our military industrial complex, etc.

Eventually, the large D Democrats, and liberal Republicans will get pulled in. You can't win 70% of the vote as he does in Vermont without them. Nationally, he just needs 50%+.

 

AOR

(692 posts)
176. I think most of the Austrian school "libertarians"...
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 02:10 PM
Sep 2015

will go for Trump or Paul. That being said...I don't disagree at all that Sanders will and must attract voters and potential voters (those completely fed up with beltway politics as usual) outside the Democratic Party to have a shot at it. His message does seem to be resonating with a lot of people on the ground and many people on the ground are very very pissed off. I don't think many of the Democratic Party status quo understand the level of anger on the ground outside their bubble. Cheers

ozone_man

(4,825 posts)
190. Agreed.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 10:16 PM
Sep 2015

I just don't paint libertarians as one type, e.g., Austrian school, thought that describes a large component of the large L Libertarians. But, I think Bernie will take half of them, depending on who he's running against.

punguin54

(47 posts)
24. I am voting Bernie because he has the guts to stand up against the oligarcs and vote against
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:50 PM
Aug 2015

The illegal invasion of Iraq. enough said .... for now.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
31. DU skews heavily towards boomers who, frankly, dont understand you guys at all.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:56 PM
Aug 2015

In fact, they often seem only dimly aware that you guys exist, sort of how they still think my generation is collectively working at starbucks, has a nose ring, and listens to "that Nirvana".

You are often talking about people who don't have a cultural handle on anything produced after "Frampton Comes Alive".

They must be handled gingerly, with care, lest they succumb to the sudden shock of living on a planet where 2/3 of the viewers at the Grammys last year who saw Paul McCartney get on stage said "who the hell is that old guy?"

Just remember that, when the inevitable "GET OFF OUR LAWN" noise starts flying at your head over this op....

...which I see it already has.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
91. Sorry, disagree with your assesment on a variety of points ...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 09:49 PM
Aug 2015

DU may slant heavily towards the boomers, but many boomers are the parents of millennials, we even could have them living in our homes! So we are very aware that 'they exist.'

Although we may not always be up to date on the latest happening, and might not wish to be, we are at some level in touch with our children.

LOL, as for Paul McCartney, our son saw him a few months ago at the Firefly Music festival in Delaware, he not only knew who he was in advance, he said that his performance was great and so happy to have been there to experience a legend.

Boomers are not as 'delicate' as you describe or as closed minded.

Some people are just out of touch.





slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
112. Well maybe some ...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 11:07 PM
Aug 2015

then there are others who at least know the McCartney name in advance ... he was already huge!





 

Armstead

(47,803 posts)
124. I'm one of those old farts and i say "go for it" although, that's...
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:18 AM
Sep 2015

An old fart phrase.

At least I didn't say Right On

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
131. I used groovy in a post the other day. Un-ironically.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 03:15 AM
Sep 2015

I'm totally an old fart. But one of the things I like about DU is that it's one of the few places on the internet left where I'm not older than almost everyone else.


 

Elmer S. E. Dump

(5,751 posts)
32. Even if he can't get anything done, it's better than the alternative
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 06:57 PM
Aug 2015

Bernie would veto things that Hillary would not. That's big. I also think he has the better chance to get the necessary grass roots movement of volunteers and supporters to help him, whereas, I just don't see that from Hill.

Paka

(2,760 posts)
33. Beautifully stated.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:00 PM
Aug 2015

Thank you for caring. I'm one of the old foogies who grew up in a very different country. Bernie is truly our only hope if we expect to survive the greedy corporate status quo we have going.

MuseRider

(34,111 posts)
39. Happy to see you here!
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:11 PM
Aug 2015

If we could just get the good things back that were working when I was growing up you will have a future....depending, of course, on climate change. It was not all good, not by a long shot but it was not like this.

We oldies are not that bad, we are sure glad to see you come up and take this on. Whatever you need we can help or just get out of your way and do our own part.

tularetom

(23,664 posts)
47. I sure hope you live in an early primary state
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:23 PM
Aug 2015

Sanders is our only hope to take America back from the banks and the obscenely wealthy, short of open rebellion.
He may not be able to accomplish everything he wants to, but he's the only one we can depend on to even try. But he can't do anything if he doesn't get elected and he can't get elected if he isn't nominated. So I hope you are able to channel your enthusiasm and enlist everybody you know in the effort.

For sure, you have a larger stake in this than me, I am exactly five days older than Senator Sanders. But I have grandchildren who are probably close to your age and great grandchildren just starting school. I don't believe the country can survive another 30 years of the same old shit that the policies of the past 30 years have bought us, and I'd like to see those great grandchildren have a chance for a decent life when they have children of their own.

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
63. I live in Alabama...
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:45 PM
Aug 2015

and I talk about Bernie Sanders to anyone who will listen. I've had many great conversations with lifelong Republicans who find themselves agreeing with me and not having an answer for the question of why they don't support Bernie when he wants these same things. I'm planning on printing and passing out flyers in the local area when I get paid next along with some friends.

Marty McGraw

(1,024 posts)
97. oh.. crap. Alabama?
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:05 PM
Aug 2015

You really have your work cut out for you. I don't know if anything more red in the world that approaches the Deep hue of red where you are.

Thank you for being a thorn to where it really Counts!

Utopian Leftist

(534 posts)
50. It's like in the movie the Matrix: America has a choice right now.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:28 PM
Aug 2015

Swallow the blue pill and realize that a bit of "free stuff" (paid for by taxing the wealthy) is EXACTLY what Americans are lacking, exactly what we do need in order to pull millions out of poverty and restore the solvency of our middle class.

Or:

Swallow the red pill and wander, zombified through the crumbling infrastructure of our corporate-propagandized, billionaire-funded, dystopic slide into the Third World.

mountain grammy

(26,624 posts)
57. K & R I liked your post the first time I read it
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:40 PM
Aug 2015

and I like it just as much now.. My daughter is a millennial (27) and is still undecided. She wants a woman president so is leaning towards Hillary. It's all good. She'll vote for our nominee, as will I, and I will still try to convince her to vote for Bernie in the primary. Don't think it'll take too much convincing.

I just gotta say, I'm thrilled to see millennials taking an interest in politics, and liberal politics at that. All of you must get involved now. It's your future and right now it's not looking so great.

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
65. I'd like to see a woman president but
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:53 PM
Aug 2015

there are more important things at stake, IMO.

I've lurked on DU since 2004 and finally became a member in 2006. I don't post much, but I keep up with politics daily because I understand how it influences my life. So many older people I know are resigned to the way things are. I can't think like that yet. I have to believe that we can change the course of this sinking ship. I, hopefully, have a ton more years to go than these idiots, and I'm not going to let them ruin everything for future generations.

mountain grammy

(26,624 posts)
106. We must convince everyone how politics influences their lives..
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:40 PM
Aug 2015

thanks for getting involved and for getting Bernie's message. I'm so glad your on DU. Keep posting.

onecaliberal

(32,864 posts)
69. Preach it!!!!
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:01 PM
Aug 2015

Not a millennial, but I damn sure agree with everything you wrote. It's important that people your age understand that the generation in power currently has completely sold out and mortgaged your future. I hope it's not too late for us to get it back.

WIProgressive88

(314 posts)
73. As a fellow millennial, I completely agree with this post.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:11 PM
Aug 2015

The "they just want free shit" line sounds exactly like like stuff I'm used to hearing from Republicans to describe Democratic voters. Pretty shocking to see it on what's supposed to be a Democratic forum...

stopwastingmymoney

(2,042 posts)
78. K & R, very good writing, thank you
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:15 PM
Aug 2015

The big picture, bottom line is what I call Big Money vs We The People.
Government is the only way that We The People have any chance against Big Money.
Hence the Govt is bad message, the average person doesn't see it. It's sad really.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
79. I'm 42
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:18 PM
Aug 2015

and you summed it up well for me too. I am fast beginning to realize I will not achieve the same things my dad did or provide the same life my dad did for me for my own child. Thank you for the impassioned post.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
81. I have not read this whole thread but know you got a lot of comments.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 08:18 PM
Aug 2015

But if you want to take your government back first you have to take your party back...and that is just as hard because there are entrenched forces that don't want you to do it.
And if they have their way, by hook or by crook Sanders will not get the nomination...despite his popularity.

And free tuition is not free...tax payers pay for it and well they should. It is their responsibility to the next generation for a healthy country.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
173. Depends on turnout.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:14 PM
Sep 2015

IIRC, this is the first election where Boomers will be outnumbered since they came of age. But only if younger voters turn out.

We've spent 40 years targeting our politics at Boomers, so we've been depressing turnout among people younger than boomers. Clinton appears to be repeating that tried-and-true model.

If the millennials turn out, things will change. If they do not turn out...well then the Republicans win.

 

aidbo

(2,328 posts)
99. this gen-Xer
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:10 PM
Aug 2015

gives you an unironic thumbs-up

check out www.wolf-pac.com.

they're working to achieve the same goals through getting the states to call for a constitutional convention.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
100. Millennials will be the first generation to significantly change the world for
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:12 PM
Aug 2015

the better since the 60's.

Even music is getting all around good again.





simplesimon

(13 posts)
104. Good points but
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:28 PM
Aug 2015

talking about what you call 'free stuff' is important nonetheless. For decades anything like single-payer etc. has been attacked and dissed so much that they have accumulated an aura of being 'unthinkable' for many because 'socialistic.' Bernie's making them thinkable again.

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
115. The phrasing was a nod toward their statements, not mine.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 11:49 PM
Aug 2015

Part of the problem is the use of the word free, I think. None of it is free. It's paid for in one way or another. Of course, you can't tell the opposition that you understand that because then they, especially republicans, get caught up in the "stealing from the hard working rich" talking points.

moobu2

(4,822 posts)
105. What you love about him is exactly what makes him such a bad candidate.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:38 PM
Aug 2015

He's to rigidly ideological to negotiate with anybody to get things done. That's why he's been in Washington for more than 20 years and has gotten almost nothing. That whiny angry liberal shtick is going to get really old too.

pinstikfartherin

(500 posts)
116. Well, the two-faced political shtick is really old to me.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 12:03 AM
Sep 2015

I'd rather take a chance with a candidate I believe in than follow behind those I know will throw me over a ledge given the chance.

slipslidingaway

(21,210 posts)
117. And yet here he is challenging the establishment candidates and garnering support of our children ..
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 12:07 AM
Sep 2015

who happen to see the past the moneyed interested of the establishment parties.

Too many politicians are bought by those who have deep pockets, the millennials see past that and want change, enough is enough and I applaud those young people taking a stance instead of falling into place.

We have been witnessing an outcry for racial justice, some young people are also crying out for economic justice and I applaud them.




moobu2

(4,822 posts)
128. "he is challenging the establishment candidates"
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 02:18 AM
Sep 2015

He's been in Washington for over 20 years. He is the establishment. Jeeeeez.

hueymahl

(2,497 posts)
168. Just curious
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 11:06 AM
Sep 2015

When you look outside on a sunny day, is the sky blue, or some other color? Just want to make sure we are both living in the same world.

beam me up scottie

(57,349 posts)
130. Yep. One can never get enough of right wing rhetoric and hatred.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 02:40 AM
Sep 2015

"whiny liberal shtick"



Reading that one's posts is like turning on Fox News.

 

Dawgs

(14,755 posts)
152. Sure, better to go with the status-quo candidate whose approvals are reaching record lows.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:10 AM
Sep 2015

Great plan.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
111. Your view is traditional progressive
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 10:58 PM
Aug 2015

Back in the 1800s and early 1900s, the Progressive Movement got a number of people elected to political office. Most of them were Republicans, which tells us how far they have drifted from being the "Party of Lincoln." Their primary focus was not the welfare state, or free stuff, as you put it. Instead, they proposed to use the power of government to give working class people a fair shot when dealing with the banks, railroads and other cartels. They were "good government" reformers, and they believed a "good" government was not one that helped investors and industrialists hold a foot on the neck of working people. This is the part of the Sanders campaign that interests me. The free education and single payer can be seen as necessary reforms, or an expansion of the welfare state, depending on your point of view. What really matters is his intention to put some teeth into financial regulations. Thanks for your post.

canoeist52

(2,282 posts)
171. Thanks for your explanation. This is what I'm looking for in the Democratic platform as well.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 12:16 PM
Sep 2015

And it is decades overdue!

LittleGirl

(8,287 posts)
141. *stands and applauds*
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 08:11 AM
Sep 2015

Good luck and I hope you can convince as many as possible, especially in Alabama. There are some true liberals there so I know that they exist!

This ole middle age woman appreciates your support for Bernie. I've been following Bernie for about 8 yrs when I was first introduced him by the MSM and wow, he was my first choice as soon as he announced! He knows what he's talking about and I'm very hopeful for his success.

d_legendary1

(2,586 posts)
174. "...a deep blue lefty blinded by establishment politics."
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:38 PM
Sep 2015

DING!!! DING!!! DING!!! DING!!! DING!!!

This is the reason why some people here favor "safe" politicians! Excellent post!!!!

 

chapdrum

(930 posts)
175. Well said....
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:51 PM
Sep 2015

...and I completely agree.
Imo, nothing will change unless Citizens United is overturned. Even if it is, corporations
will largely retain their name brand stranglehold on what remains of our democracy.
Could be wrong here, but since humans created corporations, humans can dismantle (or at the very least, amend) them, so that they are not free to do whatever the f*ck they want.

U.S. corporations have an estimated $1.7 trillion in cash parked offshore (per the Financial Times last month).
That of course is largely due to our some of our curious tax codes. However, these corporations (most of which are nominally American) could choose to pay a higher tax rate. (Wonder if the IRS would return their money if they did so.)

Also per the FT, the combined majority of this princely sum is held offshore by Microsoft, Cisco, Pfizer, Apple and Google.

Javaman

(62,530 posts)
180. My GF's two kids are Millennial's and echo the same exact feelings.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 03:19 PM
Sep 2015

real change is coming. it's not a matter of believing, it a matter of voting for it.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
183. Taxes are kind of silly here.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 04:09 PM
Sep 2015

It scales up until you hit a certain point, then it drops off to nothing.

The highest rate I've ever paid was a bit more than 40%. I wouldn't have complained a bit if I thought that money were actually going to help people.

I do think it's pretty hilarious the battle cry against Bernie supporters is now "YOU JUST WANT FREE SHIT!". Maybe the Third Wayers can spend some of that corporate campaign cash for some consultants to think them up some new insults so they don't have to keep stealing what the Republicans used last election cycle.

demmiblue

(36,865 posts)
186. Don't worry about it... one of your naysayers admitted to being an outright conservative years ago.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 04:37 PM
Sep 2015

Disregard what she thinks.

Millennials care about a lot more than a free college education and a $15 minimum wage.

We've got your back!

AikidoSoul

(2,150 posts)
187. Kicked and recommended
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 06:24 PM
Sep 2015

I thought at first that you were saying that you were NOT voting for Bernie.

It took awhile to get the the punch line, but glad I did.

Welcome to DU.

IronLionZion

(45,457 posts)
192. Kids these days...
Wed Sep 2, 2015, 01:08 PM
Sep 2015



Bernie's opponents are scared of his level of support. They're worried he might actually win. A Sanders vs Trump election might be just what America needs to wake up.

formernaderite

(2,436 posts)
194. Bernie appeals to both the left and Libertarian
Sat Sep 5, 2015, 11:06 AM
Sep 2015

I have to say Bernie and I agree on most everything, but I was surprised that some of my offspring who trend Libertarian also support him.
Therefore, I'm not surprised millennials see a difference here... everyone is so sick of the Washington Politicos with no backbone or ideology other than amassing power.

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