Bernie Wants Workers to Have a Say in Their Work Place?!?!

[RobertEarl]

Can you believe it?

Bernie Sanders actually feels that workers should not be totally controlled by their employer. He thinks workers should be able to actually have a voice in how the workplace evolves.

He calls it Democracy in the work place. The bosses call it socialism.

Way back in 1987, before Bernie became famous, he was quoted as saying:

"Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production, it means decentralization, it means involving people in their work. Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can."

So he has always been on the side of the working person, and for democracy everywhere, including the workplace.

And some of you have a problem with that idea of real democracy?

[randys1]

1. He's out of his mind, that's what he's out of

Workers rights? Is Bernie high?

[Fawke Em]

12. Maybe.

http://on.aol.com/video/happy-birthday-bernie-sanders-519064854

[zappaman]

14. yup

[Fawke Em]

20. Hilarious!

[newfie11]

2. Union power! Nt

[DanTex]

3. Actually, everyone calls what he's describing there socialism.

The government owns the means of production (e.g. factories), instead of bosses you have worker's councils voting on management decisions, etc. In Russia the worker's councils were called "soviets" hence the country name.

It sounds great on paper. In reality, not so much. Particularly in a presidential election.

[RobertEarl]

4. Oh c'mon Dan

Spit it out.

You know you are just dieing to call Bernie a communist. Be brave and just say it.

[DanTex]

5. Huh? He's a socialist, in his own words. Not a communist.

Do you agree that the government should own the major means of production? Is that what democracy means to you -- nationalizing large private industries?

[RobertEarl]

6. Heh

I didn't think you would.

But there you go, throwing out the 'nationalize' term. Even tho Bernie did not say it. What he did say was more democracy.

Some call more democracy >> socialism.

I can dig it.

So why do some have such a problem with workers actually having a say in their workplace? The only people I can see having a problem with that are corporate/capitalist pigs who would just love have everyone be their slaves.

[DanTex]

7. So you won't answer the questions, huh. Figures.

It's clear what Bernie's describing. "Public ownership" has one meaning: owned by the government. If you agree with Bernie's quote, then, whether or not you are honest enough to admit it, you are agreeing that democracy means that the government owns major private industries.

[RobertEarl]

10. Eh?

You think you can make stuff up by twisting the meaning of words like you do here:

"Public ownership" twisted to "Owned by the government"

That's Hillarious! Well not really, but it is very weird. But then the reaction by many here to the Bern is weird. I mean, c'mon, workers having a say in their workplace is not a bad thing, so maybe you should not be trying to make it seem like a Russian idea? Like Bernie says, it is real democracy.

[DanTex]

11. "Public ownership" means exactly "owned by government."

Bernie is an educated man, he knows this, and so does everyone else -- on the off chance that you don't, you can google it and figure it out in about 10 seconds.

Since I'm such a nice guy, I'll even get you started...
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/public+ownership
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/public-ownership
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership

[RobertEarl]

13. No. You are wrong.

The highways, and seaways, the sidewalks and the Parks, etc. are owned by the public and managed by the government. Not owned by the government, merely managed by the government.

The government is owned by the public.

OMG!!! The government is owned by the public and not the Trumps of the world!! Oh, noes, socialism!!!

[DanTex]

15. Apparently you searched for an alternate definition of "public ownership" but failed.

That should tell you something. Those things you mentioned are, in fact, owned by the government (in most cases, sometimes there are private leases and other arrangements). The "public" itself is not a legal entity, and doesn't own things. The government represents the public, which is why the terms "public ownership" and "government ownership" are synonymous.

So again, do you think that democracy means that the government owns the major private industries? In the same way that the government owns, say, the national park lands.

[RobertEarl]

16. The public owns the government

The government owns nothing but that which the public owns. IOW, the government is the mere manager of what the public owns. The government is put in office by the public in our democracy. The problem is our democracy is corrupted by oligarchy, read: Trumps. What the Trumps wish is what you describe: Trumps owning the public.

Your conflation of two distinct terms and definitions is really weird, Dan. You are now only embarrassing yourself and you should stop.

As for your question about ownership of major private industries the answer is that indeed, via stocks and the capability of the public to be stockholders, private industries can indeed be owned by members of the public. Remember when Obama - as our manager- bought GM stocks to keep GM from death? Socialism writ large!!

Good Democracy is, as Bernie states, Socialism. The whole web of the USA is woven with socialism because we all have a voice in what happens. Even capitalist pig's squeals have a voice.

[DanTex]

17. That's a meaningless digression. In real terms, "public ownership" of the means of

production means government owning the major industries. Everyone understands this, and Bernie, as a socialist, especially knows exactly what he is saying.

Yes, when the government bought (part of) GM under Obama, that was an example of public (i.e. government) ownership. When did I ever say that was bad? It was good, because otherwise GM would have disappeared and millions of jobs would have been lost. Of course, temporary nationalization to prevent bankruptcy is not what Bernie was talking about, he said "the major means of production" meaning most large industries would be owned by the government as a matter of general policy, not just as a rare emergency measure.

My question to you, which you still won't answer, is do you really think that democracy requires public (i.e. government) ownership of the major means of production, which is what Bernie advocated.

[RobertEarl]

18. I'm done with you

You are so obtuse and off-base that discussion with you is just like pig wrestling. Both get dirty and only the pig likes it.

You don't even see that the public owns the government. That the government works for the public is something foreign to you.


But I will say that if the public did own and control all the major industries via the workers having Democratic control of the decisions made, then, yes, this world would be a far better place. And that's what Bernie is saying.

[DanTex]

19. OK, finally, an answer, sort of.

But I will say that if the public did own and control all the major industries via the workers having Democratic control of the decisions made, then, yes, this world would be a far better place. And that's what Bernie is saying.

See, I disagree, I don't think the government should own all the major industries. In fact, I think that's a very bad idea. Most industries should be private, and government ownership should be the exception not the rule.

Yes, I get that the government works for the public, but I still don't think the government should run things like car companies outside of emergency situations, because the government doesn't do that as well as private enterprises.

[Ron Green]

25. Read Richard Wolff and get back to us.

You really don't seem to get the difference between "Democracy at work" (worker self-directed enterprises) and "government control of the means of production."

Without this basic understanding on your part, your arguments come off as juvenile.

[kenfrequed]

29. Total agreement

There are so many functional systems, economic models, and working arrangements that are possible within the scope of what Bernie said that I think he was trying to oversimplify and seemed to be using something that coincidentally resembled republican talking points.

[restorefreedom]

23. uh, the quote is from 1987

he has said repeatedly that he does not want govt ownership of companies, but rather heavier regulation and more equitable taxes

and not to be nitpicky, but he a dem socialist, not a socialist.

[Luminous Animal]

8. Believe it or not, there can be worker democratic control of the means of production without

government ownership. Please educate yourself.

[DanTex]

9. Sure, there can be worker control without public ownership, but obviously

that's not what Bernie's describing, since he explicitly calls for public ownership.

[PowerToThePeople]

21. Unions are the current best tool available for this.

Which candidate is stronger in support of unions?

#FeelTheBern

[RobertEarl]

22. Even better

The many employee owned businesses.

Y'know, despite the way some people can't read and understand, Bernie never said government owned and run businesses.

He said: ""Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can.""

I take that to mean the workers are their own bosses. What a great idea!

[PowerToThePeople]

24. I agree, worker owned is better

Unions are the compromise fpr capitalist ownership.

[FreakinDJ]

26. Working out wonderfully in Germany as we speak

[arcane1]

27. I have friends who work at co-ops, and I would love to do the same.

It's not scary when it's explained instead of labeled

[Recursion]

28. Germany does that. Labor and holders of debt get seats on the board

along with holders of equity. Pretty good idea.