History making Turning Point ahead!

[reddread]

The polls will catch fire from the Berning this very week.
Those leopards whose spots wont change will get more vicious than ever.

[Cal33]

1. Yes, I've been feeling for quite some time that we are very near the point where

something big - for better or for worse - is going to take place. I sure hope it will
be fpr the better, for all of us.

[Indepatriot]

2. It will turn for the better. When the public sees Bernie vs. Hillary on the same stage the choice

will be crystal clear; Main Street or Wall Street? IMNSHO, HRC's poll numbers will slide by 5-7 points, and Sanders' will rise by about the same. The same will happen after the second and third debates. By Thanksgiving, HRC will be claiming she's the "real socialist" in this contest...

[Rosa Luxemburg]

14. Yes Hillary = Wall Street, Bernie = Main Street

There's a weather vane out there somewhere

[Hortensis]

3. Bernie should benefit, but I'm more interested in O'Malley's showing.

O'Malley would seem to be an excellent alternative falling between HRC and Sanders (but far closer to her of course), particularly for all those who really want a male to vote for who is not an elderly extremist. If Biden doesn't run, HRC's real threat could come from O'Malley.

HRC will take some hits for past choices she deserves criticism for. I'd recommend not pinning too much hope on them, though. Back then, a majority of people in this country also supported more punitive sentencing and the Second Iraq War, even if most gave them both less consideration than they would choosing a new blender.

[Indepatriot]

4. ..."elderly extremist" my ass...

Sanders represents what the Democratic party once proudly stood for before Third Way Triangulation dragged us to the right.

[Hortensis]

8. Bernie Sanders believes in socializing the means of production.

His social policies at most don't go far beyond traditional progressive democratic ideals, which is to also say mine.

However, progressive liberals, including me, have never accepted most of where he'd like to take this country economically, much less tried to implement it. The fact is, the private profit motive is a powerful fuel for the engine of production. We'd be foolish to toss it out because WE let it get out of hand instead of just using it better.

[Indepatriot]

9. Bullshit. He has NEVER said he believes in socializing the means of production. LINKS?

He simply believes in the radical notion that capitalism should serve the citizens, not the other way around.

[Hortensis]

15. Then why does he repeatedly say he is a democratic socialist?

He simply isn't running on what he believes in because he knows he cannot accomplish it. The same thing HRC is constantly criticized for, as a matter of fact. I do pay him the respect of believing he means what he says, however.

[Indepatriot]

20. Either provide a source where Sanders advocates socializing the means of production or

everything else you're saying is BULLSHIT. You made an accusation, now back it up.

[Hortensis]

22. He SAYS he is a democratic socialist. He doesn't hide it.

Document yourself. He's your candidate. You should know this stuff.

[Indepatriot]

23. YOU stated that he repeatedly advocated socializing the means of production,. He has NOT.

You are right, he is my candidate, and I know he has never done what you assert. So lets try this again. Either back up your smokescreen with some factual links or you've proven yourself a LIAR.

[Hortensis]

25. Oh, for heavens' sakes. I am not a reading teacher.

[RobertEarl]

35. Indepatriot is correct, you, Hortensis, are wrong

You made several baseless smear attacks on Bernie and when questioned have no answers. But your words remain for all to see! You should probably delete those posts and go on your merry way, maybe somewhere Purple?

[Hortensis]

36. What a fuss over calling Bernie an elderly extremist. He IS

elderly, and a large portion of this country will see him as an extremist compared to themselves. Literally determined to in many tens of millions of cases. Or do you imagine the conservative half of our populace rallying around him?

You guys need to toughen up. I admire what Bernie's accomplishing and support most of his current positions. I'm delighted that he's pulling the Democratic Party left. But just wait until all the people who really don't like him get started. The GOP's already using him as a weapon to attack the Democratic Party.

BTW, I'm not a personality cult type of person. There will never be a candidate so...captivating that I would get outraged by someone pointing out the obvious.

[Fumesucker]

38. Hillary evidently agrees with Bernie on everything and she's only a little younger than him

That makes Hillary an elderly extremist too..



I'm younger than both of them and consider myself elderly, "Old fossil" is how my younger brother greets me.

[Hortensis]

39. LOL. Elderly is a loaded word, but I used it because Bernie's age

is a genuine negative that is going to be used against him. Big time. He's 74 now and looks it. The 60s may have become for many people a late middle age, but nobody argues that 70s is anything but physiologically old.

That's without even considering the tremendous age bias against older people. Can you imagine Bernie getting hired for a middle management position by the typical corporation?

BTW, you and I probably should work on our attitudes. I'm sinking lazily into elderly myself (working at home is NOT helping), and Bernie says it's way too early.

[Time_Lord]

10. There is a glaring difference between socialist and Democratic Socialist

go look up Democratic socialist - that is what Bernie identifies as.. not socialist itself.

[Hortensis]

16. You guys seem to hate the word "extremist," but that IS how Bernie

will appear to most of America in comparison to all the other candidates. That's even without them trying to cast him as extreme if he does well enough for them to need to.

Your job is to ignore the word extremist, when used, and point out to everyone you know that he's very consistently voted with the Democratic Party throughout his time in the Senate. Make him sound like a more principled Hillary, in fact.

[Time_Lord]

17. After 8 years of M$M blaring OBUMMER THE SOALICST KENYAN MOOOSLIM

I think the word "socialist" has lost its scare factor.

[Hortensis]

19. You're undoubtedly right, Time Lord -- at least a lot of its scare factor.

Personally, I'm not underestimating the power of ignorance, though, much less of bias. Most people just "know what I know."

Or forget the constant aggressive hostility of the right, which will try to make him sound like one of Satan's minions.

At least "socialist" is working for him too, gathering up a share of the protest voters who want to smite, or spite as the case may be, the party establishments.

Very interesting election!

[cyberswede]

31. I think people are going to like what he has to say...

and he won't seem extreme at all. That typical politicians play it safe will actually make Sanders look better, not extreme.

[Hortensis]

32. I'm pretty sure you're right on both counts. I was just mentioning

a columnist's impression of Bernie's "palpable sense of conviction." Its causes are both good and bad, but in the debate other candidates may come off squishy in comparison.

And Bernie may tend to be contemptuous of those who don't share his views, but he's not stupid. He won't let that side of him show. He also has his mainstream Democrat Senate record to point to, and it would be really surprising if he said anything that might sound at all "extreme" to moderate America. We already have a lot of progressive and socialist programs we're fond of, after all, and once had more.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

13. Remember

Martin is likable and looks nice. I've met him. However, I think he is too lightweight for what we need in this country.

[Hortensis]

27. Interesting take, Rosa. Hope he doesn't come across that way in the debates.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

34. I think he will do well in the debates

but I don't think he has what it takes. Maybe VP?

[Hortensis]

37. Okay. I haven't read more than lightly about his tenure as

governor of Maryland. Did the legislature there walk all over him? In any case, if HRC got the nomination I would like the idea of him as VEEP very much.

[jwirr]

24. An elderly extremist like FDR. Right?

[Hortensis]

28. FDR was an establishment progressive liberal who died at 63, Jwirr.

His pump-priming Keynesian economic philosophy made him loathed by the right wing locusts, which then as now were addicted to that giant sucking sound -- even as the nation lay in ruins as a result.

FDR, himself an old-family wealthy Brahmin, is also credited with saving capitalism at a time when many looked to socialism to rescue America, feeling that capitalism had failed dreadfully.

FDR was also every bit as charismatic and inspiring as Ronald Reagan, and also quite a good actor.

[jwirr]

29. I did not say he was not part of the but he was also called

socialist in the real sense of the word but what he was was open to new ideas and changes. He was in not way status quo.

And you are correct his moves like Bernie's plans were designed to save capitalism and protect true democracy.

As I never considered RR inspiring. He was a hack. And the rise in Bernie's polls indicates that he is very popular. I first voted for JFK and I will not matter what others say be voting for Bernie. He has good positions on the issues and I don't think he will sell me out at the last minute.

[Hortensis]

30. And FDR did create some socialist programs, like Social Security,

right? It would be nice to have another man of FDR's leadership ability, but even if we did these times are very different. FDR would not be able to do now what he did then. It'll take a lot more time, more commitment by more people, but we can get there if WE stick it. If WE fight for the changes WE want and not be distracted only into following any one person, who may or may not be able take us very far.

BTW, I was just reading a NY Times piece about Bernie that describes a "palpable sense of conviction." In an era when people don't trust politicians, that should really help him Tuesday night.

[jwirr]

33. Hadn't read that but I was just about to tell you that you

sound like Bernie in this first paragraph. A movement that does not rely on personalities but on the people. Sounds good to me.

[BooScout]

5. Lol

[Indepatriot]

6. Keep laughing.....all the way to Hillary's concession speech.

(when, just like in 08' she'll be insisting others pay off her debts)....

[BooScout]

7. ...

[Time_Lord]

18. Have her SuperPAC pay off her debts.

If that's allowed..

Then hopefully Bernie will end the Citizen United nonsense shortly and put together an excellent CFR package.

[HereSince1628]

11. Maybe... but I'm a Cubs fan and fear the jinx...

The media will look for something unexpected to make their story around.

I expect Wednesday it could be Chafee gained most from debate performance.

[Indepatriot]

12. Sorry about the Cubs thing.....

be careful what you wish for. One of my dearest friends is a hardcore Red Sox fan, and when they finally went all the way he went through several years of listless lack of focus, as though he'd lost part of his life's purpose..... he's fine now, but I'm just sayin...

[workinclasszero]

21. All rightie then

[hrmjustin]

26. Doubt it.