DU Member Cascadiance got me thinking about GDP perceptions, and it changed me a bit

[Godhumor]

There is a very specific division right now after the debates. Clinton supporters are pointing to the articles of pundits to show our candidate won. Sanders supporters are pointing to things like online click polls, questionable focus groups and internet search activity to claim their candidate won.

And the truth is neither of these things answers the question of who won. I know I pointed to articles from NBCnews and NPR to show Clinton won, but, the fact is, pundits are either expressing their own opinion or are writing the article they were told to write. They are not some arbiter of winning and losing.

And for Sanders supporters, I think most, if not all, understand that the polls are meaningless. But that they want it acknowledged that Bernie has enough support to absolutely dominate them. This is not an unreasonable request for acknowledgment on the matter. And I am going to think twice about rolling my eyes at how the online polls keep coming up as an example of Bernie's viability. They may not have any statistical significance, but it does show, to borrow from "Horton Hears a Who", "We are here, we are here, we are here!"

In the end, neither side can claim conclusively that their candidate "won" the debate, and, honestly, that might be the wrong thing to be discussing anyway. Because, at the end of the day, what is most important is...




That Biden effectively got boxed out. Should have shat or got off the pot, Joe.

[Kalidurga]

1. Biden effectively got boxed out...

I love you said this it made me laugh. I am not sure it's a good thing though. Biden is a well spoken person IMO and very credible. I kind of would have liked him there just to take some focus off Lincoln Chafee and Jim Webb, they looked kind of well not very well spoken or credible.

[Godhumor]

4. Glad you liked the last line

I was trying to think of a good veer for the end.

[villager]

2. What's everyone so stuck on "winning" for, anyway? The debate unleashed a further dynamic...

...in the race, and it seems there are favorable dynamics for both the Sanders and Clinton camps to point to, in the aftermath.

We'll see how this affects the campaigning, the discussion of ideas (not here on DU of course, where drive-bys have replaced discussion), mobilizing, etc....

[cascadiance]

3. I think the most important thing is that the candidates stances on issues get heard...

... and give voters things to think about and ponder over the next few months, and fuel their interests to look more closely at issues.

I'm hoping that we don't have future debates focus on "label" questions like whether it is ok to be a "socialist", or does one consider one self a "capitalist" or similar things that more facilitate categorization of people instead of in depth thought of processes and issues that affect us all on a daily basis, and those such as climate change that if we don't keep that as a frame of reference (even if at times other issues need more immediate responses), that we'll wind up "reacting" ourselves in to a state of doom.

I'm hoping that with this first debate (and hopefully we can talk the DNC in to adding more of them than just six total and have some more of them that aren't just on weekends from this point forward), we give a framework for people to think about so many things that were discussed, and perhaps many that weren't either, and fuel a means to put in more intelligent questions to ask candidates in the future that really put to the test them answering how people want them to lead on many topics of interest to us all.

As someone stuck in tons of IT contract work and being unemployed a lot (and am that way now), I'd like to hear all of the candidates put out real frank statements on how they stand on things like H-1B and H-2B or other guest worker programs, that arguably serve the same purpose as ignoring prosecution of illegal employers of undocumented workers, where the net result is that guest workers are abused and exploited, and American workers lose their jobs or have lower salaries and work conditions as well, with less union representation.

Americans have wanted to have a good feeling of who we are going to nominate and what they stand for this time around more so than so many elections in recent history I think. I think we've learned too much that if we don't get more depth in these debates, we'll wind up putting someone in place where we get a lot of surprises later that we aren't happy with, like we did with Obama on things like the TPP and Wall Street malfeasance and bribery without accountability, even if we got some things that were good despite an obstructionist Republican congress.

To this day, I wonder still if John Edwards was left in the primary process longer after the truth of his secrets were discovered by the PTB to swallow votes of many who were concerned about the issues that he was the beacon of speaking out on, so that we'd focus less on those issues when he withdrew from the race, and it had closed down to just Clinton and Obama then. America doesn't want that sort of manipulation this time around, and we need to speak up en masse to make sure that doesn't happen, whether or not that did or didn't happen last time, and we all make a wise choice, whether it is Clinton or Sanders to lead this country.

[artislife]

5. ...gosh....

Strangely...I feel like you stepped back and saw the big picture.

There is really no way to prove who "won". We will see donations rise, more stickers, hear more in our circles in real life. It will become apparent over time.

The question that cannot be answered scientifically but can be answered now, is how did the candidates perform in your opinion, were you swayed from where you stood and is it going to prompt different actions in the future.


One thing that feels true in my opinion, is that O'Malley is not long for the race and Webb and Chafee should close up shop.

Biden is a dark horse who still may show up...

[demmiblue]

6. K&R

[JaneyVee]

7. Hillary won it by a mile. It wasn't even close.

[HerbChestnut]

8. Agree with the OP

[m-lekktor]

9. took the words right out of my mouth! k and r nt

[Aerows]

10. It didn't change your paradigm

Like me, I want to see my candidate Bernie Sanders win. You want your candidate Hillary Clinton win.

Bias is a part of life, but I think most people can see through the TPP and XXL Pipe linem

That's precisely why I do not support Hil horse-shiting law.

[delrem]

11. MSM "pundits" said that Romney "won" the first Obama/Romney debate.

Does anyone actually believe these "pundit/analysts"? The self-styled "Democratic strategists" and "Republican strategists" that the MSM passes around from venue to venue, ubiquitous, and their "editorial views" and their op-ed stars...
Really?

Haven't we figured out yet that they aren't "objective", that the MSM that they work for is also the source of political "dark money", and that they're selling us a story - that we actually PAY for?