2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumCondescending Hillary fans: Man, did this pro-Bernie blogger get it right.
The portrayal of Sanders supporters as conspiracy theorists and quasi-racists, due to their disagreement with Black Lives Matter protesters complaints about Sanders, may become more highly publicized during Chapter Two of the campaign. As Sanders becomes more of a threat to Clinton, his supporters will likely be further pilloried and accused of sexism, misogyny, and all manner of extremism. Already, Sanders supporters are being accused of harming the Democratic Party by championing extreme views that will, according to critics, never win a general election.
http://thebernreport.com/now-that-its-a-real-race-bernie-sanders-supporters-must-remain-vigilant-positive/
So far today, I've seen Clinton supporters on this board snidely compare Bernie supporters to stupid teenagers, Ron Paul fans, conspiracy nuts, Alex Jones wannabes and all sorts of condescending names in some sort of attempt to "prove" that they're the adults in the room.
Well, I'm 45 years old, a former newspaper reporter who now works in public relations for a cyber security company, I'm the mother of two wonderful children, I have a house, two cars, a husband and a bevy of adult responsibilities, I have a college degree and I have worked political campaigns in the past.
I do understand how the media shapes opinions and didn't appreciate their narrative after measurable and scientific conditions like focus groups, donations and Google searches that showed Bernie won the debate buzz during and immediately after the event. Heck, I didn't even vote in any of the online polls, myself, and I do agree they can be rigged, but they weren't the only things measuring his performance.
But, having worked in media for 26 years, I can confidently say that our current media system DOES support the status quo candidates. It's not so much a conspiracy. It's out of a perceived need for access. Yes, the media does "go after" Hillary, but when she's running against a candidate the media CAN'T own, yes, they will side with the establishment candidate every time.
I couldn't care less about the Republican's trumped up Benghazi committee and the issues surrounding the content of HRC's emails, but I do know the dangers of an unsecure server. It looks positively hypocritical for Clinton, who wholeheartedly supported the Obama Administration's prosecutions of those who leaked national security information, to fly all over the world with a Blackberry that could have been easily hacked to gain access to a server that didn't even have an encrypted VPN. Any first-year hacker could have gained access to that server.
I have fought to wrest this country back from the corporate control with my vote and my volunteer work for years. Bernie isn't the first candidate I've supported who understands that the top 1 percent are actively trying to suck all the money out of the middle class and working poor. That's not a conspiracy, either. It's calculated and real.
I understand how social media works. I am the content manager at my company and I work with it several times a day. It is, btw, the only way Millennials get their news and it's becoming a more popular medium for those of us who are in our 40s and 50s, as well. In fact, the most accurate, researched and fair-handed reporting now comes from people on social media who see how corrupt our mainstream media have become.
In other words, I'm not a child, a conspiracy theorist nor a Ron Paul fan. Don't talk down to me: I actually do know what I'm talking about a lot of the time and, when I don't, I am not a bit shy to ask a question.
artislife
(9,497 posts)You have been one of my favorite posters.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)And the feeling is mutual.
yuiyoshida
(41,867 posts)Like I said before...http://www.democraticunderground.com/128058673
madokie
(51,076 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Of course they speak down to us who aren't the powerful elites.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I don't mind. By supporting Sanders, we are bucking conventional wisdom, which is pretty much all the media know, and therefore pretty much all the people know. So we're probably wrong. I don't care. The opportunity to support a truly different candidate comes along once in a blue moon, and I'm at the age where I know it will not happen again before I die, so this is it. If this is not the moment, at least it looks more like the moment than anything I have seen in my lifetime.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It is all they are PAID to *say* despite knowing differently.
I'm so sick of ethics for sale in this country that I could scream.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I know that if we don't elect Bernie, it will be a long, long time before anyone gets the chance to restore democracy to our country.
The oligarchy has taken charge to a degree few people realize.
People who have seen a bit of the inside without really being insiders -- as Fawke Em has done, realize what is going on.
A lot of Hillary supporters are just inexperienced and gullible. I hate to be like that, but it is very clear to me that many of them believe all the red, white and blue gibberish that the mainstream media dishes out to them.
Blus4u
(608 posts)I have been waiting my whole adult life for this candidate.
I too am too old to see another one like Bernie come along.
I wish there was some way for Elizabeth Warren to get more involved or certainly positioned to pick up where Bernie leaves off.
Peace
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...that should (according to the pundits) win.
As an unmarried male, I'd rather try to court the person I love than to settle for a second rate marriage.
We've all seen those types of relationships and they suck.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I sometimes think about a couple women I might have married, instead of the woman I did marry, and it's not a nice image.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,459 posts)Thanks for the thread, Fawke Em.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,900 posts)This old lady is also tired of being talked down to - tired of the hippie-punching and red-baiting, the snide references to naive millenials, the baseless accusations of online poll-freeping, the pretentious attitude of being the only grown-ups in the room. If they can't sell their candidate on the basis of her policies and positions, do they really think we can be persuaded by insulting us? Nobody was ever converted to a different position through insults. Or is it just about scoring magic Internet points?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Because they have nothing persuasive to offer...and they don't care because they are convinced she will win by hook or by crook because the party power is with her, and power is where their faith lies. And if she does win it that way it will not work out like they think it will.
And they are not worried about us not voting for her in the GE...they don't have to because it is her or the crazy ones.
But what they fail to understand is that the independent voters outnumber Democrats and it is their vote that will decide the next election not us.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)Your are right in this, "and they don't care because they are convinced she will win by hook or by crook because the party power is with her".
The PTB demand that the status quo continues and don't want and/or need anyone to disrupt it. The PTB will try to steal the primary election for Hillary.
Yes, they're scared, because of what you wrote, "the independent voters outnumber Democrats and it is their vote that will decide the next election not us." Thus the manipulation of voting machines in the primary in favor of the status quo, iow, Hillary.
They're very afraid of Bernie, as they should be, because he will throw a wrench into their money-making machine.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)The ones they've co-opted from Bernie, that is.
eridani
(51,907 posts)There is no way Clinton can win on issues.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)it's her image that's the "important" thing.
Bleah.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Beartracks
(12,821 posts)CaliforniaPeggy
(149,737 posts)I could not agree more.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)about CNN also being in the bag for the establishment candidate.
How did that come to be considered a conspiracy analogous to the faking the moon landing?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Everyone on this board has complained about the mainstream media at some time or another. Why is it so difficult to believe that an organization owned by a huge corporation doesn't have an ulterior motive?
These corporations don't want a president (and a congress) who will further regulate them, make them pay their taxes and get the money out of politics so that their share of campaign-funded ads is curbed.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)or get a promotion at such an organization, thereby resulting in an influx of personal wealth, well, it's pretty easy for some to sell out our political system, the institution of journalism and hell, that Bill of Rights applies to somebody else.
I'm not going to be apologetic that I say we are entering some politically dark times if we as the American people on the whole don't get our shit together.
I'd like an economy that benefited the Middle Class, the police to stop strutting around like they are in a warzone with gear to match, and some controls on Wall Street so that they can quit sending us in a tailspin every seven years like clockwork, only to proclaim "no one could have predicted this".
zeemike
(18,998 posts)No need to apologize for that.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)tblue37
(65,502 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I can't remember if I made a post about it or not or whatever. It's just as likely I complained to my SO and just dropped out of the loop for a while.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)It's kind of disheartening to read thread after thread about how "childish" or "cult-like" you are because you both know the score and enthusiastically support a candidate.
Voting is one of the most adult things you can do, so it makes it more of a pleasure when you can cast a vote for someone and not against someone else.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I was very happy to vote for Obama too. I think it's wrong to not vote. I am always shocked when I find people that don't.
And yes, I am tired of being called one of the many names they have for us. But, I guess it's okay kind of shows desperation on their part.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)aidbo
(2,328 posts)BlueStateLib
(937 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)wasn't. Her IT team didn't add encryption or even change the factory settings on the server.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'll sit here and wait for you to back up those assertions.
villager
(26,001 posts)...or potential supporters, should the nomination indeed go their way.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and doubling down on the rhetoric which attracts critical comments.
Oh yeah ... and Bernie is winning all 50 states .... so I should stop posting already.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251650529
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)of exactly what was discussed in the OP.
Ned_Devine
(3,146 posts)That was almost too perfect wasn't it? Sadly, I think the irony is lost on Cosmicone though.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The op rang the bell and look who came running!
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Here's a hug to make you feel better:
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)I was going to post essentially the same @#$&ing thing, but as SARCASM
Now what am I to do? I'm screwed!
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)He will know what to do.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)like Nathan Poe himself suggested.
ConservativeDemocrat
(2,720 posts)I'm known for my own lampooning of the counterproductive wingnut set, but you long ago made it indistinguishable from the real thing.
- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Really a poster child for what the OP is talking about isn't it? Rhetorical question, of course.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The OP tells them what they cannot say.
But Free Speech is, and they are going to have to put up with it. BS and his supporters appear to dislike criticism while dishing it out just fine to others.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)However, calling left-leaning adults "children" or "Ron Paul supporters" isn't legitimate criticism. It's name-calling. If they want to get into a discussion on the merits of the issues, then we'll have a discussion.
But, given Hillary's ever-changing positions, it's impossible for them to do that, so they resort to sixth-grade bullying tactics.
They're well within their rights to do that, of course, but it just shows how bereft they are of weapons for a meaningful debate.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)The media are the propaganda arm of the big corporations and promote the corporate candidates, and promote the illusion of democracy. He's talked about this for decades. He also points out that the Founding Fathers wanted a governing elite--real estate owning white males. Not democracy where white women and black men and women and poor people, non land owning, because back then real estate was the main basis of wealth, voted for candidates.
Public relations was invented by Edward Bernays. He invented the idea of companies putting out press releases to highlight new products, deflect criticism, or whatever.
Who was Edward Bernays? He was Sigmund Freud's nephew. Freud's wife was Martha Bernays. Nephew took the desires that Freud had discovered - to be socially popular, to be sexually attractive, to feel young and virile, to be a good housewife, to be part of a group identity, or conversely, an elite and therefore unique individual - and put them to work in advertising. He quickly learned that PR and advertising could sell people anything as propaganda, whether it be a product or a candidate, using the desires of ordinary people.
There is a BBC documentary called "The Century of the Self" you can watch on Youtube. It explains how the advertising and PR industries developed.
The story that broke yesterday about Debbie Wasserman Schultz dis-inviting Tulsi Gabbard to the debates, and setting an autocratic debate schedule, and being determined that Hillary be the anointed one, should not be a real surprise to anyone who knows the media are owned by a handful of giant companies.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)it is always beholden to its customers.
GM would be nothing if "people" didn't buy GM cars.
Procter & Gamble will be on its knees if "people" didn't buy downy or tide or dial or charmin
Kellog's would disappear if "people" stopped eating cereals
The people who whine about corporations are the ones who lack the critical mass to change a corporation's actions.
Noam Chomsky is a classic example. For all his vitriol over the years, he has not been able to attract "people" to gather en masse and support his views.
The great thing about America is that it is also a marketplace for ideas and thought. Ideas that people like sell and ideas that people reject either sit on the shelf or are sent to a paper shredder.
Bernie and Hillary have been on a level playing field and both had the exact same opportunity to market their ideas. Unfortunately, 75% of the democrats do not want a socialist revolution. Them's the breaks.
It is an inconvenient truth that despite an army of internet warriors wearing their fingers to the bone on the internet, people have not moved and it is looking increasingly likely that they won't move. This is despite the constantly unfair attacks on Hillary from the moderately asinine that she represents wall street, she is a corporatist, she is a criminal, she is a flip-flopper to the extremely looney about Vince Foster and secret lesbianism.
It is time to accept the inconvenient truth that people are not buying Bernie's message no matter how salubrious his supporters may think it is. Insisting on the same message over and over and expecting different results leads to Einstein's definition.
At least the so called "corporations" (which are also owned by people by the way) will change the soap/cereal/car design formula if it is not selling and come up with a better product.
Steadfastly insisting that people should like one's product and then blaming/attacking people who are not buying that product is the wrong strategy.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)They lied to the EPA and a lot of other people, and somehow it came out.
Usually a large corporation will lie about all sorts of things and get away with it because there is nobody to stop them. If a whistleblower comes out, their lives will be ruined, and they will be called a crazy nutcase and a disgruntled employee with "an ax to grind".
And who owns the majority of the stock in these large corporations? Your average blue-collar working stiff? No. The wealthy.
Oftentimes the big corporations do not give us choices because all their products are basically the same, and any differences are accounted for by marketing and advertising. All the choices between companies in one product line may all be terrible, and the consumer doesn't know it, because the consumer doesn't know what a quality product looks like or acts like, and now we're all buying cheap Chinese crap in many cases. When only a few giant companies control 95% of the market in a particular product, and we don't have many choices, we don't have real competition. They want to keep their market share. So Americans buy what is advertised to them. The worst case of this is the high prices of prescription medications and health care compared to the rest of the world.
We don't have competition among big corporations. We have rule by big corporations and the illusion of competition.
The ultimate corporation with no competition that I have seen is Wal-Mart. It took over the rural market and is usually the ONLY store that you can buy many things at. Small businesses have been driven out of business. You can't find a local business to buy a good or service at, and if you do, the chances are really good, especially in rural America, that they are incompetent. A lot of business in America is based on lies and bullshit. And the cost to taxpayers of each Wal-Mart store, in the costs of food stamps and government aid because Wal-Mart does not pay a living wage, is something between 900K a year and $1.6 million per year. Subsidized by the taxpayers when it should be paid by the wealthy corporations. Corporations put the burden of risk (via bailouts) and their failure to pay a living wage on the taxpayer and privatize the profits.
In the town I live in now, population 1,400, when I went shopping with my grandmother in the 60s, there was a dry goods store, a doctor, a dentist, a veterinarian (important when you have farm animals as well as pets),a pharmacist, a movie theater, a dry cleaners, and two grocery stores. Now all those businesses are gone. The only two viable businesses besides the two banks are a Dollar General store and a Subway sandwich store. And about 3 crappy gas stations/convenience stores where I can't even get a receipt out of the gas pump. Keeping paper in the gas pump for receipts is beyond the capabilities of the owners.
I have to drive 20 miles just to buy groceries and any other necessities of life.
If I want to buy quality goods at a real department store with helpful salespeople, like Nordstrom or Neiman-Marcus, I have to drive 150 miles to the city. And of course the vibe is completely different in Nordstrom than it is in Wal-Mart or a dollar store. It's the race to the bottom with no middle class to buy stuff. No middle class stores as a result.
GM started making cars better because people started buying Japanese cars and the Japanese cars were far ahead of the American Big Three in quality. People noticed. They started partnering with the Japanese companies such as Ford with Mazda. The Japanese started building their American assembly lines in Southern, non-union states and using us as a third world country for their labor. So did the German auto industry. Then the Koreans came along and started competing in the American car market as well. The Big Three were AGAINST seat belts and air bags. They did not even want to consider safety as a selling point. I thought wanting safety was part of human nature, but apparently the guys in Detroit knew better than the consumer.
Japanese engineering is a lot more precise than American engineering. As an example, I know someone who was a project engineer working for an American subcontractor, on a huge oil rig built by Mitsubishi for Royal Dutch Shell. The American engineers were sloppy. The Mitsubishi folks had their calculations down to FIVE significant digits. The Americans had to go back and recalculate their specs in order to not look like fools.
This is when Detroit was getting their asses whipped starting in the 1970s and had no idea why.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)That VW reprogrammed their computers to lie about emissions, that GM got run over by the Japanese car makers, or that in many industries there really isn't competition because most products are similar and the consumer doesn't know about alternative products in the same category?
Most people don't read labels and most large companies LIE about what's on their labels or fight against ingredient labeling. Oftentimes I can find four different kinds of sugar in the first ten ingredients.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and they're not the evil that they're portrayed as by certain people on DU. Surely there are bad apples but by and large, corporations perish if they don't keep shareholders and customers happy.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Because they are too cheap and greedy to pay their employees a living wage? Violate overtime laws and such? Get sued in a class action for sex discrimination? And the taxpayers pick up the slack in the billions of dollars?
And they have destroyed thousands of little towns and small businesses, as I related in the example of the small town I live in, which is certainly not unique?
If the middle class is destroyed, there is nobody with money to buy anything. Money has to circulate in a capitalist system. Read Joseph Stiglitz on the drawbacks of income inequality.
Did you not read what I said? I don't think you did, or else you didn't comprehend what I said.
Corporations can keep shareholders happy with rising profits and destroy themselves through bad business decisions, firing lots of people, and making a low quality product to be cheap and ruin their brand reputation.
When the focus is on maximizing short term profits, not making a good product or keeping people in a community employed, greed can destroy a company quickly. Also, greed is unlimited. A person who has a billion dollars apparently thought that is not enough--Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs could have put many thousands of Americans to work and died only worth one billion instead of six billion. He is just as dead as he would have been if he'd put thousands of Americans to work and improved the economy by employing U.S. citizens. There's making a profit, and then there's being a ruthless, cruel bastard. I think you can run a business and make a good profit and do it not being horrible to your employees and/or customers.
Haven't you heard that Comcast's customer service is the worst in the world? Nobody is stopping them from continuing to make lots of money. Even if they lose customers, they will still make lots of money.
I don't think big corporations perish often. When they do, often they are raided and everyone is fired, as in what Mitt Romney used to do to make millions of dollars. They merge, go bankrupt to hide their failures, ship their money to offshore tax havens, and various other things that I am not privy to. They can be a horrible failure and yet financially successful. And they buy congressmen.
Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all.
----- John Maynard Keynes
English economist (1883 - 1946)
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Docreed2003
(16,883 posts)I can tell you in my hometown, there was a large farm parcel that WalMart wanted to build a "super center" on. They fought for years to build there and ultimately won, with the help of some underhanded transactions. After that, there were home along that highway that were either bought out and bulldozed for new businesses or morphed into "law offices" etc. That one mile stretch of highway looks nothing like it did just 20 years ago. Maybe that's the way it goes, but it certainly changed the face of the town. And WalMart isn't one to give back to the community in any meaningful way
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)Thank you so much for that Summation!
sorechasm
(631 posts)It's a shame that Cosmicone ignored your well-reasoned argument: Capitalism only works if there is justice to keep it honest and above board. (You provided plenty of examples but the best example is the degree to which we extract natural resources, dump toxic waste into an overburdened environment, and make our grandchildren pay the consequences of an unlivable earth. Yet it's all legal and financially viable way to make a profit today, while damning tomorrow.)
Corruption is in every system that lacks integrity.
This why we need Bernie.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I've always been good at English and wrote good papers. I also am fortunate to have a good education and graduated from a pretty good liberal arts college. I earned a law degree working at the courthouse and going to night school. I must have been nuts. I was what is known as a professional student or a college bum. Somebody who loves school.
Capitalism must be regulated by government (Pure Food and Drug laws, OSHA, EPA, wage and hour laws, Deceptive Trade Practice Acts, etc.) and also by personal injury/wrongful death/defective product lawsuits in a system not rigged by the corporations. Corporate donations to judges who have to run for office are going to influence them favorably toward the donor, just like with regular politicians. Corporations get away with murder, literally. Read about "dead peasant" policies taken out by Wal-Mart and other large corporations. Tort reform is a boogey monster invented by the big corporations and insurance companies to scare people. When a corporation hurts or injures someone and a jury decides the defendant wins, the burden of the injured person is laid upon the taxpayers instead of the person or corporation or entity that hurt them.
As an example, our governor, Greg Abbott, was out jogging one day in West University Place, a rich area of Houston. The "University" in the name refers to Rice University. A tree fell on him and he was paralyzed and in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. He sued the homeowner. He got a damage award of over ten million dollars. That is what he lives on now.
However, as governor and AG, he has promoted tort reform, and put over the idea that people who are not really injured can soak an insurance company for thousands of dollars faking it. He's scared people over frivolous lawsuits. There is a remedy for frivolous lawsuits called a Motion for Summary Judgment. That means that the judge sees no issues of merit brought by the plaintiff. The Defendant usually files one as a matter of course. This is the remedy for frivolous lawsuits. It's a very basic part of court procedure and has probably been around for hundreds of years in England.
When you have caps of say, a million dollars, on a seriously disabled person's award, and that does not cover their lifetime medical costs, the taxpayers end up paying the bills instead of the insurance company that insured the defendant that caused the injury. So this means that it's OK for Greg Abbott to get a huge settlement to cover his pain and suffering and disability, but for the rest of the people, there should be caps on damages and awards.
Can you say "hypocrite"?
Deregulation ruined the airlines. Reagan made the skies far more dangerous by busting the Air Traffic Controllers' union. The invisible hand of the free market is a passing reference of Adam Smith's, not a firm principle. And I am no economist.
Rich people and corporations with power cannot be trusted to do the right thing. They will do the greedy thing, which is what the John Maynard Keynes quote is about.
The idea that rich people are morally superior is part of John Calvin's Protestantism, and part of the prosperity gospel scam that some preachers promote. People gripe about plaintiff's lawyers, but they forget that the defense lawyers would rather be paid by the insurance company they represent, fight a claim, and end up costing the insurance company more money than it would cost to just pay the claim. Not economically smart, but their principle is to fight at all costs.
Molly Ivins pointed out long ago that a corporation would much rather have injured workers than spend the money to install safety equipment so there are few injured and dead workers costing the company money. Not real bright, and expensive to the company, but they are going on principle.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I didn't post to your original point because I took those classes.
I wanted others to see your point without me mussing it up coz I knew I was generating heat.
I want to thank you for posting in this thread. I love that I have attracted the Best of DU. Gosh, I want to see more of you!
I have had a crush on Pete Townshend since I was 12. Guitar gods are my favorite.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I had not seen you before.
I think Brian May is my personal jesus. Guitar god, fabulous musician, rock star sex god, Ph.D. in Astrophysics.
I saw Brian & Roger & Adam Lambert in the summer of 2014 on tour in North America. I never saw them back in the day because I didn't buy their albums, and therefore didn't realize how good they were. I had only heard the loud, obnoxious, metal like stuff on the radio. How I missed the gorgeousness of Brian May, I don't know.
I used to have a crush on Pete, but now that they are old, I think I like Roger better. He can still sing fabulously well. I'm a classical pianist but I loved growing up with 60s, 70s and 80s rock and roll, and The Police and Queen are my favorite bands. I spent half my time listening to classical radio, and half my time listening to Top 40 and later FM AOR radio.
My other guitar god crushes are Sting and Andy Summers of The Police (Andy is a jazz expert with classical chops) and Pat Metheny. My keyboard playing crush is Steve Winwood. I've loved him for 50 years. My standup crush is Lewis Black. I made him laugh once after a show. I'm putting that on my resume.
When I was in college I was into prog rock because that was keyboard based and I'm a piano player. I wanted to be Rick Wakeman.
Last weekend I saw Joe Jackson on tour. He is a genre unto himself. As far as pop piano players, I can play along with his CDs and see where his head is at, because of his classical chops.
I like guys that are musicians and math/physics nerds. When I was in orchestra I dated classical fiddlers (violin, viola, cello, string bass). Seemed like everybody I knew in the orchestras I was in was a programmer or mathematician for a day job.
I've seen a lot of guitar gods in my time: Pepe, Angel and Celedonio Romero, Gatemouth Brown, Chet Atkins, Frank Zappa, Brian May, Tom Petty, Alvin Lee of Ten Years After, Robin Trower, and probably a few others I have forgotten about.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and economies of scale mean it can sell the same thing at lower prices, unfortunately, the customers go to Big Company and the little companies fold. This seems to be a truth that we cannot get around. Ranting and raving about revolutions does not cause the average person to reject the Big Company for the little companies. People will do what they think best for them. As such, they have allowed Big Companies to get bigger.
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)to the almost complete removal of anything 'Trade Tarriffy'
Thanks in part to a few cheap pay-offs to reap billions
questionseverything
(9,663 posts)so now that it has been confirmed, why should i trust the secret software in the voting machines?
edgineered
(2,101 posts)We saw trust is not a machine attribute as evidenced by the debate results. We are fools to think the primary results will be different, bigger fools come the general...
questionseverything
(9,663 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Thanks for the tip! Synthetic products are getting more and more toxic anyway. Let's go for something authentic like that genuine and unique Bernie Sanders. Not produced on an assembly line and environmentally friendly.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)In the marketplace of ideas, Bernie's ideas are not selling. Change message, change tactics, advertise differently -- sell Bernie to the people and if they buy it, no one will have to whine.
Attacking Hillary, Hillary's supporters or people who endorse Hillary doesn't do diddly for Bernie. Amirite?
Bernie is a great candidate and I'd happily support him in GE if he wins the nomination -- he has a lot to sell for and instead of selling, you are wasting your time in attacking Hillary and her supporters.
Attacking Dean didn't get a single vote for Bernie.
Attacking John Lewis didn't get a single vote for Bernie.
Attacking us on DU and hiding our posts won't get a single vote for Bernie.
If there are two hot dog stands, one stand is liked by 50% of the customers, the other stand by 25% of the people. Saying that the 50% have no taste, that the other stand vendor is a crook or a liar or a flip-flopper or in the pocket of the corporations won't help you sell your hot dogs. You have to analyze why the other hot dogs are popular and improve your hot dog to see an increase in sales. It is really not rocket science.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)but logic challenged people get entertained for different reasons than those who are endowed with sardonic sensors.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Like I said up-thread you are the poster child for what the OP is talking about. Whatever. So, what's up at the Grumble forum? Someone like you who is part of the elite of humanity surely have access to that sacred place. If not then it's a real shame.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)1. How to respond without condescension
2. How to differentiate between sarcasm and logic
3. How to be supportive of people whose expectations suddenly go bust
4. How to be civil and courteous to avoid alert stalking and hides
5. How to laugh off attacks and barrages
6. What to do when one is ganged up on by several supporters of the opposing candidate
7. How not to hit the forehead too hard when posts like "Bernie is winning all 50 states" come up
8. How to properly exercise anger management
9. How to not get bewildered by the logic-challenged
There are also support groups for people who are on a time-out because too many of their posts were unfairly hidden.
The course most attended is the one where people are focused to promote Hillary Clinton by actions that will actually get her votes like knocking on doors, making telephone calls, handling media unfairness in a mainstream manner instead of swarming their websites.
I also got helpful information about how to get endorsements from elected officials -- what it is that makes them support Hillary and how to address their concerns etc.
Read at your own risk. No condescension was intended in the above post, "poster child" designation notwithstanding. Any condescension claimed is purely coincidental and subjective. Whatever contained herein is the poster's personal opinion and does not represent the views of any other website or of its members. Void where prohibited. All rights reserved. This may not be reproduced in whole or in part on reddit, facebook or twitter without the express written permission of Flying Spaghetti Monster.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)I bet that all the jokes that you send to Reader's Digest are published. Have a nice day!
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)VICTIM!
Seriously, people, step away from the keyboards. Go for a hike. Jump in a pile of leaves. Enjoy a pumpkin patch and some hot cider. SOMETHING.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Good one.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)...claim that "the system" is rigged against you. Always works.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Sorry that that wasn't clear.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)It wasn't difficult to understand what YDCA meant.
angrychair
(8,738 posts)"Nobody is buying his ideas" yet a million+ unique donors before the1st debate and $1.3 million in new contributions before the end of the debate says different. He has as many likes on Facebook as HRC and none of his are bought. The fact that he only brought in less than 2 million dollars last quarter, with a third of the effort, than HRC and 99% of his contributers are still free to donate 98% more before they reach the legal limit in a primary. HRC cannot say the same.
Bernie has done all this by word of mouth and the Internet, no SuperPACs or flashy ad campaigns. Over 17,000 people came to see him here in Seattle, all Internet-based and word of mouth...same for every event. He has also done it without badmouthing any fellow Democratic candidates.
This primary season is a battle for the soul of the Democratic Party. Are we going to be a corporatist, "moderate centerist" (HRC's words, not mine), Party or are we going to be the Democratic Party we always claim to be. We are either Democrats or left-leaning republicans. We can't be both.
NorthCarolina
(11,197 posts)did you gather this information from, or is it just a "gut feeling"?
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)I'm sure that this number traveled a long way through that poster's guts before being pulled out and posted.
Beartracks
(12,821 posts)Only if the media allows it.
=======================
senz
(11,945 posts)That's why tens of thousands of people show up to hear him speak -- far, far more Americans than Hillary can attract, even with all her money and all her bought connections. So people ARE "buying" his message -- except that Bernie isn't "selling" anything; he's communicating truths that your beloved corporations pay big bucks to keep hidden.
You place too much value, too much faith, in raw power and money. As most Democrats know, red states have been sold a bill of goods that has them voting against their own interests.
That's the cheap and cheesy power of selling. Which, apparently, you worship.
Thanks for showing your hand, cosmicone. "Cosmic" you are not.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and his poll numbers worsened. Bernie has peaked and is stuck in the low 20s. He ain't going higher no matter how much his supporters wish it to happen.
senz
(11,945 posts)The corporate media went gaga for their fake lady, but the people of this country are waking up, and when they do, there will be changes.
Time to rethink your materialistic, corporatist, bought and sold assumptions. There's more to life than junk.
That's actually good news, cosmicone, but I don't think you're ready for it yet.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)making profits for their shareholders. It's the law. Some times making customers happy makes the profits, sometimes buying and selling their own stock after the manipulate the market makes them profits. Some corporations have figured out how to manipulate the government to help them make profits like Halliburton. Some corporations lie and trick their customers to make a profit. Bain Capital makes a profit from destroying other companies.
The status quo has seen the middle class and lower classes wither in the last 30 years because the corporations have bought Congress and the Presidency. Corporations are making record profits and the poverty level increases. This is the status quo you will get with electing HRC.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)should be required viewing for ALL of our younglings. Bernays' work for the corporate megs of his era -- promoting consumerism by melding products and self esteem -- should be well known.
I have a niece whose hackles spiked when I observed we were being "good little consumers" when I took her to the nearest mall (which is 45 minutes from my humble home). She did not want me to disrespect her love of shopping.
I think there are many more younglings like her -- noses buried in electronics, wearing Abercrombie & Fitch or Aeropostale, totally disenchanted with the political process.
(I sure hope I'm wrong about that...)
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Sounds like something that I would like to watch. I'll try to find it somewhere, thanks for mentioning it.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Stay fired up Berners!
America needs Bernie!
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)Smug and condescending. They reflect really poorly on their candidate.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)And then accuse a Bernie supporter of being anti-science. Then tell them since they're anti-science they also must deny climate change, is and anti-vaccine nut and is probably a flat earther too.
It's a very Republican tactic.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Some deny the science of polls
Some deny the science of climate change
Some deny the science of vaccines
They are not all the same people and no one has ever asserted it that way.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)is the American people, and we are fed up with bullshit.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)So sick of the snide remarks. Talking down to us like we are children. There is no need for it.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)smug and secure in your superiority.
Until that damn reality gets in the way and you lose the Primary, still try to hold on, and still fail.
I'm rather stunned that the Hillary supporters haven't yet realized why she lost in 2008.
They act like nobody but Obama could be elected other than Hillary. They are acting just like they did in 2008, smug arrogance that Clinton was the only one that could win.
Here we are, 8 years later, they are playing the same cards and thinking if they can just push one more PR move, people will suddenly decide that they want to vote for Clinton.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)So, one of the little people.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)when I am 74 years old with a lifetime of public service, a wife, children, grandchildren and enough vehicles to haul them around in.
Not up to Hillary's standards, but he's not looking to be impressive with his wealth.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)that you're not out on the fringe .. unless the cars are Ferraris of course!
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Ford Mustang I inherited from my father when he passed away last year.
My other Mustang is 10 years old and paid for.
We actually have three cars - my husband has a little Ford Focus that is six years old.
We live in a modest home.
I'm not working poor, but I am solidly middle class: a dying breed, wouldn't you say?
And why is the Middle Class a dying breed? Well, take a look at who our politicians shill for.
P.S. Not that it's anyone's business, but, in our area of the world, a car is essential for work. I live in the city, but work in the county. Our only means of public transportation is city buses and they don't service the county. My husband works one county over, so taking public transportation there is out of the question.
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)Excellent Post! Thank You for Writing It!
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I've always done that. But things are so twisted and confused right now that the only media sources I trust are online and only by bloggers I trust.
I can not tolerate the spin and the lies...let's call them what they are.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Vote for them, campaign for them, but save your heart-eyes for people you can have an actual relationship with.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)INDIANOLA, Iowa (CNN) -- Bill Clinton spoke to an energetic crowd of Democrats in a wet field in Iowa on Saturday, praising the nine Democrats running for president as the best field of candidates the party has put forward in years.
The former president repeatedly derided Republicans for their budget and environmental plans, and urged voters to elect a Democrat in 2004.
"Go ahead, fall in love, be for somebody," Clinton said. "But when the primary's over, let's fall in line and bring the White House back to our party."
I've always done that. So far.
winter is coming
(11,785 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)JRLeft
(7,010 posts)Hydra
(14,459 posts)I have to wonder if they know how out of touch and hateful they sound. They make me VERY afraid of a HRC presidency, because the venom they spew here is echoed by their candidate almost verbatim a few days later. We are the test subjects for her message...and there's nothing good in it.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)what is very likely spewed in the hidden forum for the chosen few. Wanna bet that they are backstabbing the ones who can't access it? I've seen that so often in small private boards that it could make an interesting thesis for an anthropologist.
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)us All Picture something Like This:
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)I'd love to know what goes on in small private boards, as I never get invited to them and probably wouldn't last long due to a lack of fluency in group think. (Another reason to support an outsider like Bernie)
But I'd still love to know. And yes an anthropologist's take would be cool. I have a feeling it's really nasty bottom-of-the-barrel stuff and secret groups are where collective cruelties like racism, sexism, scapegoating, lynching, anti-Semitism and genocide fester, bloom, and grow.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)A couple of years ago some leaked screenshots of such a secret dungeon for the admins' pets on a similar DU-bashing board were being passed around on FB and it was truly ugly. They were trashing the members who couldn't access it as badly as the people on DU.
It's pretty much inevitable that the same thing will slowly start to happen at the Bernie-haters' site.
840high
(17,196 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)interest that is.
The system is completely RIGGED.
How do we undo all this damage?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Time Warner gave nothing to Hillary. Zero, zilch, nada, not a cent.
Time Warner's employees are individual people and they can give to whomever they want -- it is their money.
If you donated to Bernie, your contribution will be lumped with other employees of your employer -- that doesn't mean your employer is paying Bernie.
druidity33
(6,449 posts)When i make small contributions to a candidate, no where do i list where i am employed. What does my job, profession, employer have to do with private political donations? I thought the Time Warner statistic had to do with PAC money anyway...
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)anything over $200 requires full data tracking.
Under federal law, all contributions of more than $200 to federal candidates, PACs, or parties must be itemized and disclosed to the Federal Election Commission. Donors must report their name, address, employer and occupation, and these records are publicly available from the FEC and several other websites.
https://www.opensecrets.org/resources/dollarocracy/04.php
druidity33
(6,449 posts)i'm poor, so i've never donated that much to any 1 candidate. That being said, what is making Time Warner employees in particular choose Hillary? I wonder what amt of $ Time Warner employees have donated to Bernie (or other candidates for that matter)?
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)They're on line
Marty McGraw
(1,024 posts)and appropriately! (your continued employment, with said company, may be at stake here)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Your experience, your insight and your writing style all enrich the lives of the rest of us on DU.
Just can't thank you enough.
senz
(11,945 posts)You were probably nicer and more patient than they deserve, but of course the way we treat others has more to do with who we are than what the others may or may not deserve. You were patient and adult about it because this is who you are; you're a naturally classy person.
They seem to think they're being classy too, when they make countless condescending, snide remarks about Bernie supporters, discussing us as if we were naive children who want a rainbow or a pony -- or leftover hippies who never got a job. Of course not all in the other camp do it, but those who do are amazingly arrogant, and they seem to think that speaking this way marks them as "superior."
But of course it doesn't. Just the opposite.
I find the shallowness and insincerity of this minority annoying and at times exasperating, but it doesn't get under my skin, because it's just so small and stupid. It does, however, make me sad and angry that their insulting comments could be painful for fellow Bernie supporters. I wish you all could understand how much more worthy you are. When they behave that way, they are beneath you, and you need to know it.
One thing they do that goes beyond small and stupid is to try to drive wedges between Bernie and people of color, or Bernie and Obama, or Bernie and women, or Bernie and Democrats -- or whomever else they want to separate him from. In each case, they refuse to acknowledge facts proving their claims wrong -- which shows, imho, that they know perfectly well that their accusations are a lie. They're just trying to create distrust and dissension in hopes of hurting Bernie's chances. To me, that goes beyond "small and stupid"; it is dishonest and malicious. When they do that, I always wonder if they're following orders from their candidate's HQ -- because it's so in character -- and, of course, one of the reasons I would not ever want to vote for that person under any circumstance.
Fawke Em and all Bernie supporters, please don't let a handful of very small people get you down. I respect you so much. I am proud to be on his side and yours.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm pretty sure that is not exactly extravagant.
aidbo
(2,328 posts)Indepatriot
(1,253 posts)Don't forget the "Full Ignore" feature. I've only used it on a handful of DUers but all of them fall into the "Snide Hillary Supporter" demographic. I enjoy the debating of policy with those who do the same, but the ones who simply shit all over every Bernie thread (you know who they are) have been blocked from my feed. Let them canoodle over at Hillarysupporters.com...
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)to keep morale high after a heartbreaking week.
Attacking Hillary supporters of condescension or other nefarious/pernicious behaviors is a great way to rouse the troops.
Brava !!
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)did you take a recent trip to mars? cuz it was not heartbreaking in bernieland
and if you did go to mars, i'd like to see pictures...
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)please forgive me if my weary brain doesn't take umbrage at your corrective grammar policing.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)I speak Italian fluently and thought I'd help -- many many people make that mistake.
senz
(11,945 posts)And we don't need sexist usages like "brava," thanks.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)comment here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251693051
thanks.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Some of us are thirsty. Thanks.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)I guess that would be easier for you, than answering my question.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)The site started around August 16 and the #BlackLivesMatter forum had only a couple of topics with a handful of posts in them for a while and only started to have some activity when someone here, around the end of September, mentioned how almost nothing was being posted in that forum. Isn't that strange? Even now there's not much happening there compared to the "fun" forums. The LGBTQ forum is even less frequented. Just saying. Anyway, time to go to bed, starting to see double. G'night KMOD!
Response to BeanMusical (Reply #101)
Post removed
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)How childish is it for a group of members of DU to shoot spitballs at the rest of remaining at DU from another forum?
KMOD
(7,906 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)anything that is being said here by HRC's fans. Well that's what happens when there's no moderation and no consequences for anything posted about DU and DUers at a nasty echo chamber. Speaking of consequences, I am not the one who alerted on your now hidden post. At the time it was hidden I was sound asleep and having wonderful dreams. Also, I would have preferred to reply to your comment. Oh well.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)I'm afraid that you are wrong and that what is posted on DU is moderated and that if even the less offensive personal attacks posted at BernieHaters.com were posted here instead some people would be in trouble. Do you think that the anti-Semitic thread about Bernie wouldn't be ban-worthy material for everyone involved if it had been posted here? That was really low and nauseating.
senz
(11,945 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)senz
(11,945 posts)ucrdem
(15,512 posts)That would be refreshing.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)and a news report, don't you?
Do you think everyone who purchases Nikes "just does it?"
Or that all pieces of KFC are "finger-licking good?
Or that M&Ms don't ever melt in your hand?
Vinca
(50,318 posts)That's what the Hillary people here keep telling us.
reddread
(6,896 posts)antidemocratic power plays are.
these crooks are connected by their mutualized ($$$) interests in deregulation
and the option of sticking it to their competitors via a given candidates mutual obligation.
uponit7771
(90,367 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Like you, I'm far from new to this stuff. Cripes, I went door to door for Bobby Kennedy. They "misunderestimate" us at their own risk.
mythology
(9,527 posts)if they stopped pushing things that are conspiracy theories. When you have feelthebern.com blatantly lying and saying that TimeWarner is the 8th largest donor to the Clinton campaign, it's really hard to take them seriously. Corporations can't donate to a campaign. People who work for a company can. So you can say that employees of TimeWarner are the 8th largest donors to the Clinton campaign, but that doesn't sound nearly so ominous as saying a corporation is.
Also things like google searches or donations aren't actually any sort of proof that somebody won or lost a debate. The goal is to win the nomination. Based on the initial legitimate polling, it seems to be Clinton who has come out of the debate in a stronger position to win the nomination than she was before the debate.
djean111
(14,255 posts)of people support Bernie is because they hate Hillary. That people are only pretending to agree with Bernie because they hate Hillary. That is delusional. At best. But it tells me that they don't care about issues, they just care about Hillary getting elected.
Just a rudimentary search on "Pledge-y Thing" shows me that the "loyalty pledge" has been used to hi-jack threads since January, at least. I got the feeling that the intent of the Hillary roll-out was to immediately crush the thought of anyone opposing her at all. All the wrong buttons were pushed - because she is a woman! because it is her turn! because polls so far out as to be meaningless! Because she has the big money and endorsements sewn up!
If you are going to vote for her if she wins the nomination, why not just vote for her in the primary! Why, as a matter of fact, do we need a primary - waste all that money, give the GOP ammo to use against her - as if they don't have tons of it right now, that they have been amassing as happily and as assiduously as Smaug accumulated his gold - and most of it, really, supplied by the Clintons.
I don't think Hillary's supporters understand, too, that the only concern about Benghazi is that it perfectly illustrates how very much the GOP hates her, which makes the meme of "the GOP won't work with Bernie" and "the GOP won't work with any Democratic president" kinda moot. Or maybe, if we believe the president would be powerless, we should award the presidency to Hillary just because she wants it so very very much?
I don't have anyone on hide because, I confess, I kinda like the thwarted and condescending authoritarian stuff. My bad. And then there is the mindless mean-spirited stuff, which shows up like clockwork, and has no effect or meaning, really, except for showing us the mindset of the poster. Shrug.
I do not think this campaign can safely and smugly depend on demographics.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)that does NOT equal hate no matter how many people says it does.
I have been angry at friends and family before (some many times) and that also doesn't equal hate.
And, I have put LOTS of people on ignore over the past few weeks. I simply got tired of posters that post condescending and rude remarks about Bernie supporters. I don't need to see that all of the time, and some posters specialized in doing that. All of the posters that post one or two lines consistently as their only contribution to DU (with those lines consistently being condescending, mocking, and belittling of Bernie supporters on DU are on ignore). The chances of me ever gaining anything positive from their posts is very close to zero, and I now no longer have to waste my time by reading their drivel. It's great.
yuiyoshida
(41,867 posts)K&R your posting..
"We populists and progressives must NOT allow ourselves to be muzzled by opponents who want to portray us as incendiary radicals."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/128058673
senz
(11,945 posts)Touched on so many things that I've noticed and felt but couldn't put into words.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)It's not condescending to point out that conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories,nor should it be expected that Clinton supporters,who have been told for months here that Bernie was going destroy Hillary's campaign at the debate,should be silent when that doesn't happen.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)As an aside there is an alleged Sanders supporter here but in her DI account she deleted an op that said she would root for Trump and Paul if Sanders lost. Not everyone here is what they are claiming to be.
LiberalArkie
(15,730 posts)a RFK type of change. I don't know what that means, but maybe a change from the old to a new guard. Maybe someone else can express it better than I can.
Edit: I think the feelings come about due to the unending war, the policemen going crazy, the corrupt political system, the youth being laughed at because they want a civil society and the ability to have good jobs and education.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Babel_17
(5,400 posts)They're salivating at the prospect of what having their turn will entitle them to, and aghast at the prospect of a Sanders Presidency, one which will curtail the provisioning of their communal trough.
mountain grammy
(26,659 posts)In fact, I have sons around your age. Both have college degrees, both have union jobs, one's a Navy vet of the first Bush war, and they are both for Bernie.
We are serious people out here, who are seriously wanting a true liberal president who will take America to a much better place. I also agree with Bernie that climate change is the biggest threat to our national security, and to everyone's national security.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Excellent! Your assessment is spot on...the 1%er's followers gonna' hate you...
ybbor
(1,555 posts)You go girl!
Feeling the Bern, don't want any aloe!
tritsofme
(17,413 posts)They looked absolutely ridiculous, sorry if pointing that out is uncouth.
Maybe the way to not be accused of posting conspiracy garbage...is to stop posting the conspiracy garbage?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)It's absolutely true that he won the focus groups, got 40,000 people to donate, got more Internet followers and had more Google searches.
But, the Clinton folks yelling about their "scientific" polls conducted from people who didn't watch the debate and only heard who the M$M told them was the winner isn't assailable?
Come on.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)one of the finest i have seen in a long time
JackInGreen
(2,975 posts)GOOOOAAAAALLLL
bvf
(6,604 posts)ejbr
(5,856 posts)It is this dismissing of "cogent" citizens who prefer Bernie that irks me. True, even the people who they generalize us as deserve more respect, but to be ignored altogether as even existing within the Bernie camp is a bit much. I also cringe when Bernie supporters make unfair claims against HRC supporters.
ion_theory
(235 posts)Like I've always said. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that a group of people highly invested in something will do whatever they legally can to make sure their investments pan out the way they want.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Woot. You have made my day much lighter and happier.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Wow! That is well done!
leftcoastmountains
(2,968 posts)SleeplessinSoCal
(9,156 posts)Is there a plan of action for when it nose dives?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Because, everyone I know who had their retirement locked up in it has already suffered losses from which they can't recover in time to retire and new people either don't want to invest or can't afford to, has me wondering why you asked.
The fact that the stock market is a crap shoot is one of the many reasons we need Bernie. Pensions, funded in full and not fully in the stock market, is something we should revisit. And, speaking of the stock market, perhaps we should restrain them from causing bubbles and bursts so it's not three-card Monte to invest in capitalism.
What are your plans? Seriously. I'm not trying to be snide. Why do you suggest it would nose dive and what could we do about it?
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,156 posts)I figured this wasn't being thought through. When the stock market tanks, so do jobs and the ever increasing cycle of damage. It's a major reason Bernie will have a tremendous challenge trying to get rid of health insurance companies.
If there are economists explaining how this won't happen, and I'm proven wrong please share sources so I can beat my Republican relatives over the head with them on Thanksgiving.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I really wish this had not become common place, but it is.
Again, I ask why the stock market would dive if Bernie becomes the nominee or the president? I suspect it might, but, that's the fundamental issue of plunging all our retirement there.
You know... thanks for making me think. I'll go research that for you.
My whole retirement is sending my kids to college so they can take care of me. I really have nothing but SSI.
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,156 posts)I hate 401k's that the corporate world forced on us so that we are basically helping to outsource our own economy by wanting more returns on our investments. It's like one step forward two back, day in, day out.
Found this from back in June not so horrible as I fear. But it could be worse than speculated:
"As for Sanders, if he takes office hes very clear about wanting to raise taxes on the highest earners. And hes all for a $15 minimum wage. That might hurt consumer confidence amongst higher earners and raise it for lower ones. Then again, those higher wages may also result in higher prices, meaning low earners would still be stuck."
http://economyandmarkets.com/markets/clintons-competition-how-will-markets-react/
SleeplessinSoCal
(9,156 posts)".... if Sanders does push her economic policies in a more liberal direction, it could have some serious effects for the markets.
The markets could tuck tail and run in the face of greater regulations. Banks and companies might push back fearing more regulations could be bad for stocks. Up for debate is also the issue of Social Security, and whether higher taxes will be used to fund other such safety nets like Medicare and Medicaid."
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Deny it all you want. And plenty of Bernie supporters have assigned the worst motives to Hillary supporters. I won't forget that.
McKim
(2,412 posts)I so appreciate your post. I am also a responsible adult who worked as a bilingual teacher, married to a retired scientist, own two homes and have means. I have worked for justice and peace my entire adult life. We raised a child who is now a family physician. I am supporting Bernie Sanders because he is the best chance we have to take our country back from corporate/military control and get our tax dollars working for the benefit of our people.
The idea that I am part of some fringe group, that I am against feminism, or that I don't support the Democratic Party is ridiculous.
These are cheap attacks against a well informed responsible group of Democrats and Independents who are daring to want something better than war dollars going abroad, college out of reach for our youth and starvation and homelessness for our people. We have had enough of the Third Way at this household.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I was ridiculed somewhere on this thread because I also have some means. I'm not poor, either, but I have been and with a kid. It's not fun. But I was accused of not being one of the "little people." Ugh.
That Clinton supporters think because I have PAID FOR health insurance and my husband and I have a nice modest brick home and three cars that I should somehow just love their candidate. No. It's called empathy. I've been there and could go there again if my company ever decides to let me go for whatever reason (I live in a "right-to-work" state).
Thank you for holding true to what I thought were Democratic principles. This means a lot to me that you posted here.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Segami
(14,923 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)tblue37
(65,502 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,769 posts)Lots of good material is getting posted on DU. Keep it coming.
tblue37
(65,502 posts)bobGandolf
(871 posts)All the OP in my opinion is quite accurate, and sad.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)If they come into mine, depends on the mood I'm in. If I feel like playing, I play with them, after all they never discuss issues, just repeat all the same nonsense.
Talking points.
Designed to disrupt, troll, anything but discuss issues.
as
Left forums used to be relatively free of that kind of garbage, but they must think it does SOMETHING, though what I can't imagine.
They sure haven't won anyone over for their candidate, quite the opposite actually.
BainsBane
(53,093 posts)How does Sanders 24, Clinton 51 equate to a general public preference for Sanders?
If the author can't get something so basic right, I don't see why I should concern myself with the rest.
Sounds like that blogger has a very corporate job. I always find it ironic when people who pull in upper-middle class salaries from corporations rail about corporatists.
houston_radical
(41 posts)by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky, published in 1988 explains very well how corporate media function.
check it out
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0375714499/?tag=mh0b-20&hvadid=4968240957&hvqmt=b&hvbmt=bb&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_5wijenexxn_b
HRC, like her husband, and the rest of the blue-dog democrats ARE NOT LIBERAL!
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)They belong in the Republican Party.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I block them because all the do is attack people. Most Bernie supporters are happy, enthusiastic, want to talk about issues. But on Social Media, Hillary's supporters do little other than call everyone else names.
They sure are not helping their candidate.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)cmon...if you cant tell we've been hoodwinked by a self-serving corporatist then you must be brain dead just like republicans. She vots for wars killing families and shrugs it off...and her words about Snowden were a complete joke. There is no evidence that crucial information fell into the wrong hands and he did try to go up the chain of command...and besides whistleblower protections dont apply to contractors. She knows this. She's in bed with the enemy. I care about her character not her gender. Whats next voting for Condeleeza Rice?
Capn Sunshine
(14,378 posts)But there are so many examples of Our campaign's more fervent supporters talking over each other it's getting hard to get any real work done.When I bring up the very real campaign issues facing us, I get drowned out with fanboy rhetoric. No one takes the on ground work that is not being done seriously; they all have this idea that winning at social media=electoral victory. I'm here, once again to tell you it won't.
Such enthusiasm at the expense of dereliction of actual on ground work has led to the slippage of Bernie in the polls in New Hampshire. Our own numbers show an alarming trend of declining support.
After New Hampshire, there isn't one primary through March 1 where we have a lead. Not one.
You can bitch all you want in DU and on Facebook about media conspiracies and the definition of socialism, but until the legions of online back slappers get busy at ground level, OFF LINE , and in the streets, I don't see a way clear to the nomination. The numbers just aren't there.
Edited to add that Colorado is a tossup.