Hey folks saying something is sexist, does not necessarily mean

[boston bean]

that someone is a sexist.

We all say sexist stuff from time to time. Our society is steeped in sexist imagery, language, culture, etc. You cannot escape it.

The way to deal with that is some good old self reflection and possibly some research concerning the oppression of women, to learn more about it and enlighten oneself.

The way not to deal with someone bringing it up is to yell back at them, HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A SEXIST, STOP PLAYING THE GENDER CARD, REVERSE SEXISM, I'm so INSULTED!!!

Go Hillary! Keep on saying what needs to be said. Saying it is the only way to bring attention to it and possibly stamp it out. You certainly won't rid society of it, if no one can talk about it.

[Cha]

1. Exactly boston. they were trying to say Hillary was portraying herself as a victim.. no. She

was standing up for her rights to talk about guns without being accused of shouting about it.

[boston bean]

2. Right... So strange how these things get turned on their head, isn't it?

Let's use more sexism to shut her up, is what I see happening.

[earthside]

7. Talk about "turned on their head" ...

Accept guilt if accused and become reflective on your 'sexism'.

By all means, do not defend or rebut a charge of 'sexism'.

This is Hillary World, folks.

[boston bean]

11. No, try not to say sexist things, or use old sexist tropes and stereotypes.

Is that too much to ask?

And when questioned further about a sexist comment you may have made, don't get all defensive, try to understand why one may think it is.

This isn't rocket science.

The evidence that comes out of these types of conversations with many is a denial of any and all sexism. That's not helpful, because we all DO know it exists.

[Cha]

16. Pretzel logic.. whatever makes Hillary look bad.. they don't care how they go about it. really

just makes them look desperate.

[boston bean]

5. I do believe this is an issue, and one that is important to me.

But I understand that womens issues aren't of a concern for many.

[boston bean]

17. Since you are so well educated on the sexism women face in this culture due to your relations with

women, you should understand fully that you don't face what they do in this society.

We shouldn't be shutting people up about it.

[boston bean]

25. Do you think Bernie could say something sexist?

Do you think you could?

I admit over my lifetime I have said sexist things. I'm not going to carry a cross over it. I try to educate myself and be better.

[boston bean]

29. However, saying something sexist is damaging to women.

It doesn't necessarily make someone a sexist. I look to their actions/words after being told how their words/action was sexist.

[treestar]

49. It never does any good in these debates

to list your credentials. It's like having a black friend. Quit trying to prop yourself up personally and stick to the issue. It's like trying to say - well I may be a man but I know some women and therefore I get to tell you all about it. It's dumber than the black friend because black people are a minority - but everyone deals with the opposite sex on a daily basis.

[JaneyVee]

6. Hillary is the only candidate to release numerous policy proposals...

And she's been holding town halls since day 1. What the hell do you think she's been talking about, her favorite recipes?

[JaneyVee]

19. That's an agenda, not policy proposal.

Policy proposal explains 'how', not just 'what'.

[Jim Lane]

77. False. Martin O'Malley has also released numerous policy proposals.

Although, I confess, he has used that word "agenda", which apparently to some is an excuse to dismiss anything he says.

You can get started on reading about O'Malley's plans here. I'm not going to bother doing any cutting and pasting. If you're genuinely interested in learning whether your statement was accurate, the information is available to you with minimal effort.

[Thinkingabout]

31. I hope this provides the information you may be looking to gather.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/campaign-finance-reform/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/campus-sexual-assault/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/climate/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/college/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-reform/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/criminal-justice-reform/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/disability-rights/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/early-childhood-education/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/plan-raise-american-incomes/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/gun-violence-prevention/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/health-care/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/immigration-reform/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/k-12-education/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/labor/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/national-security/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/rural-communities/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/small-business/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/social-security-and-medicare/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/addiction/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/voting-rights/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/wall-street/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/womens-rights-and-opportunity/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/workforce-and-skills/

[NonMetro]

46. Her Goals Are "Policy Proposals", His Goals Are An "Agenda"

Got it!

[treestar]

50. Maybe he ought to give out the proposals and not just the agenda

[Evergreen Emerald]

63. Hillary has been discussing actual issues from day one. She has presented action plans

on every issue you can think of.

Oh by the way, welcome to DU.

I will say that I saw a number of posts attacking Hillary for her response to BLM at the speech where she laid out her platform, and yet none on the actual platform, except the one in the Hillary group.

Perhaps people don't want to hear actual policy.

[JaneyVee]

4. I wonder if those accusing HRC supporters of...

Only caring about gender accused Af-Americans who voted for Obama of only caring about race. Even though women and minorities have turned out in droves to vote for the previous all white male presidents.

[boston bean]

8. No one seems to want to recognize that 44 times a male has been elected.

Like that says NOTHING about ANYTHING.

Yet, women voting for a woman, means you are voting for someone based on gender.

It's frickin cuckoo!

[DURHAM D]

9. Someone will be along soon to tell you/us

that we are too sensitive.

[boston bean]

23. see downthread. Trivial was the word... but none the less the meaning the same.

[Hiraeth]

10. LOL

Last edited Sun Nov 1, 2015, 11:21 AM - Edit history (1)

you have outdone yourself with this one.

Do you look down your nose as you type this stuff?

[mcar]

14. Exactly BB

This should be easy to understand.

[Martin Eden]

15. So then you agree Bernie was not a sexist 30 years ago ...

... when he stated that voting for a candidate based on gender would be sexist.

If so, you should point that out to your fellow Hillary supporters who are making a big deal out of it by grasping at that straw.

The reason I won't support HRC in the Democratic primary has nothing to do with gender or any of the nonsense being flung around in attempts to smear any candidate. It has to do with her record -- especially on the critically important issues of militarism, Wall Street, and trade policy. For very good reason, I don't trust her in any of those matters.

Sexism? Meh. All the Dem candidates are more than acceptable on gender issues. All the flaming threads are just political posturing and a distraction from the real differences between the candidates and the debate we should be having.

[boston bean]

20. I think what he said was sexist, in putting gender front and center in a negative light.

[Martin Eden]

30. "putting gender front and center in a negative light" is exactly what you are doing

If you think this effort to paint Sanders with the "sexist' brush by the Hillary camp is anything other than dishonest politics, then you are not being honest with yourself.

Perhaps you should also re-examine your reasons for supporting your choice of candidate, for the reasons I stated why I can't support her.

[boston bean]

32. I don't think you are being honest with yourself.

I'm not trying to paint Sanders in a negative light. What I am trying to do is to help persons understand that sexism is so ingrained in this culture that one may not recognize it. And asking them to please try to recognize it.

[Martin Eden]

38. Utter BS

That's not what you're trying to do at all, and you know it.

[boston bean]

45. ah yeah, it was...

[Martin Eden]

73. "putting gender front and center"

That's what you stated Bernie did, in a previous reply. C'mon, do you really believe that was "front and center" in his 1985 campaign?

If that was indeed "front and center" then surely there must be a whole slew of similar quotes. I haven't seen the context, but it looks like an answer to a direct question. And he was right -- voting for a candidate based on gender is sexist.

Deliberate mischaracterizations are dishonest, as are all the efforts of the Hillary camp to smear Bernie with the "sexist" label -- including your thinly disguised thread here.

[Thinkingabout]

33. What I don't understand is why Sanders supporters continue to bring up the sexists, are you wanting

this to remain with him? Remind us over and over and over.

[Martin Eden]

40. I didn't start this thread

Remaining silent in the face of dishonest smears would, perhaps, be a better option though, given the level of dishonesty among Hillary supporters.

Case in point:
Your suggested notion the HRC camp would forget about it if there wasn't any response to the smears.

[Thinkingabout]

56. Funny you bring up 30 years ago, what about 40-50 years ago, some of his statements

do not show he has always been for women's issues.

[Armstead]

18. It is inserting a meme. And it is contrary to what you claim to want

You want a level playing in which neither gender gets an artificial advantage or disadvantage because of their chromosones?

Then pick your battles and don't cite every damn thing an opponent says as sexism to try to get a political advantage. That strikes people as political opportunism rather than actual offense.

And posting newspaper articles quoting a former women political opponent who took offense at Sanders "sexism" who also bashed his support for a Gay Pride Day does not give that claim much credibility.

The Clinton campaign knew damn well what they were doing. They were inserting a meme that Sanders is sexist. Not accidental. The context was "remember, women. We need to vote for Hillary to stop that sexist Sanders, who can't deal with a woman expressing her opinions."

That trivializes the issue, as well as the election.

[boston bean]

22. No issue concerning this is trivial.

There's a lot of angles to this.

[Armstead]

24. There are a lot of angles. And this kind of stuff obscures them all

[boston bean]

27. right.. so pointing to a sexist trope obscures everything?

I don't think so. I think people need to open their minds a hell of a lot more than this. One to better themselves and better this society.

[Armstead]

34. Yes. It obscure the issues being discussed and makes it about gender. And...

it is imposing a straightjacket on discussions of issues.

Sanders said something that would have gone totally unnoticed is he were addressing a male. He also said somethig that I could totally see Hillary saying. She often uses direct language like that in the same way.

Suppose Sanders had used a lightly different sentence construction.

"I disagree. In the nation people shut too much about gin control.....etc.

Or "We can keep saying polarizing things about guns....."

What is a gender correct way of saying it? And in a debate where you have a few seconds to make your point, are you supposed to sit there and do a calculation of what to say based on the gender of the other person? Does every sentence every male candidate says have to be checked to make sure it might not offend the sensibilities?

That to me is not a level laying field. Politicians beat each other up all the time in many different ways. That's not necessarily admirable, but it's not a double standard. Clinton does it too, and she should. It's called debating issues.

[boston bean]

35. So gender issues/sexism/misogyny aren't issues?

They are not allowed to be discussed?

[Armstead]

37. I just discussed it. To me it is not sexist because she could have easily said it

To me, setting the specific candidates aside, it is not sexist in my opinion. And I watched the debate with a female who is very attuned to such things, and it didn't even measure on her radar.

I don't think it is sexist because most candidates say such things all the time. I can see Clinton making a similar statement. It is the type of statement that is made by all politicians all of the time, regardless of the gender make up of the participants.

If some people took it as sexist, there's not much else to say. If you can honestly see it outside of the particular candidates and still believe it was an awful sexist attack, then there's not much I can say, except to agree to disagree.

[treestar]

51. Apparently not, because that gives the advantage to women

Women always have the gender card, doncha know, and that makes the playing field not level. If we really want a level playing field, we'll stop mentioning the sexism!

[boston bean]

55. It's crazy isn't it. Total denial of reality. nt

[jeff47]

43. Yes

Does every sentence every male candidate says have to be checked to make sure it might not offend the sensibilities?

Yes. At least, that is the proposed standard.

[treestar]

47. He might not have said it to a male

because it would not have the same effect. Men are allowed to shout without it being commented on.

The playing field isn't level.

It's like saying playing the race card - black people have an advantage because they can see something as racist - that's right wing territory.

Anyone running against Hillary who is a man is going to run into this. Seeing that as a problem for the man is silly. Men have the advantage to begin with.

[Armstead]

48. He "might not" have said it? He says it all the time.

[treestar]

53. he might not, or it might not be seen the same way

I don't necessarily think he was guilty here, but then all the complaining about the fact that women have to be way more careful not to offend is seemingly off limits too.

In general, women get criticized for their tone of voice much sooner, unconsciously, due to the ingrained sexism in our society. Other women will even do it, especially older ones. Just as Hillary will surely get criticizes on her wardrobe, which can happen to no man in the same position. The right wing is already calling her old and ugly. Bernie is allowed to be old and ugly without comment.

[Armstead]

52. And IMO it's a setback for women's equality if such "walking on eggs" is demanded

You think the more moderate conservative segment of society is going to support the legitimate goals of women's rights, if they see this kind of attempted enforcement of some unknown dogma?

Nope, just the opposite. It will discredit it in their eyes, just as the excesses of the 60's and 70's intensified the right wing reactionary trend against the advancement of rights.

[treestar]

54. It's walking on eggs not to be saying sexist things?

This is very right wing, like blaming women for sexism - if we just didn't complain about it and let it go on, then we'd be stronger or something.

[Armstead]

57. Yes, in this case it is walking on eggs

So if Sanders says in a debate "Hillary, you're wrong on that." Is that sexist and condescending? What of he said it to O'Malley? Or Trump?

But if she says "Bernie you're wrong on that" Is it okay because she is just being a strong forceful woman?

Or maybe that's okay for bernie to say. But he is not supposed to respond to what was an attack from her to reply "all the shouting in the world is not going to do what I would hope all of us want,"

So many damn rules.

There is plenty of room to discuss and dissect gender inequality and how that operates. I'm all for that, and have many discussions with friends on the subject.

But, a political campaign is always rough and tumble, and distracting from content to obsess over nuances of phrases (or use them to score cheap political points) is not it.

[treestar]

74. why would anyone say "Hillary you are wrong on that" is sexist?

Again you are claiming women somehow are the ones with an advantage. Complaining about so many rules, like the complaints about PC.

It's rough out there and women can't handle that apparently. Or that's what you are hinting. No, they can, but they can also talk about how it is rougher for them due to sexism.

[Armstead]

75. How about in the campaign Clinton just run on her strengths?

If she and her supporters believe one of her strengths is being a woman, fine.

But looking for opportunities to cry "That's Sexist" and depicting her opponent as a sexist if he sneezes wrong only hardens the attitudes of men and women who do not support her -- and also reinforces the stereotypes you claim to be trying to counter. That a woman candidate has to be treated "special" and men have to walk on eggs (and that is an appropriate term) and or risk offense or damaging fragile female feelings. It implies something about their ability that I'm sure you don't want to see implied.

There are plenty of women in the political arena who run on their merits without that overlay. I assume Clinton can too, of she wants to and doesn;lt just want to use gender-based cheap shots in a politically opportunistic way.

If you want to educate men about inappropriate stereotypes and behavior fine. Plenty of other opportunities for that. But how about emphasizing Clinton's positive qualities and leave it at that?

[treestar]

79. No one calls it sexism when someone sneezes

It is not walking on eggs. Do you walk on eggs when with black people? Would you complain if they thought something was racist?

I don't think Bernie was really being sexist in this instance, nor do I think Hillary was playing the victim of it - she simply turned the phrase to her next thought.

We all know in the general we are going to hear a lot of sexist crap, about Hillary's looks, etc.

[Armstead]

80. And if a man is the Democratic nominee there's going to be a lot of other kind of crap

But that's no excuse for emulating that in the primaries. I don't compare politically motivated cheap shots with a sincere discussion of sexism.

I am NOT saying you are doing that. I think you are sincere and have a lot of integrity.

But I guess you have a more trusting view of Clinton than i do. I think she did insert a gratuitous line (and repeat it on more than one occasion) about sexism aimed at Sandeers simply to add a personal slur, and raise doubts about him. I think she knew exactly what she was doing, and she succeeded, judging by all the crap she stirred up.

[72DejaVu]

76. In fact, he didn't say it to a male

He said Hilary was "shouting", he said O'Malley "raised his voice".

[treestar]

39. This idea that it is a level playing field

and that calling out any sexism is making it to the advantage of women, is ridiculous.

[Armstead]

41. I'm not going to rehash this. You can read all of my posts directly above and I stand by that

[Vattel]

61. Trying to point out the obvious will get you nowhere.

Anyone that thinks Sanders was being sexist when he made that "shout" remark is not objectively assessing the available evidence. It's as simple as that. But someone who is not objectively assessing the evidence will not easily be convinced that they are mistaken. And the political advantages of pretending that Sanders behaved in a sexist way are irresistible to some partisans. It is good to point out the truth, but not to waste too much time on arguing about it (IMHO).

[Armstead]

64. I know....and I've got so much real-world stuff to do today. But somthing makes me try at least

Maybe it's my ornery streak.

[TheSarcastinator]

26. Both of your posts are amazing examples of deceptive sophistry

Like Trump, you seem to be willing to say whatever it takes in the moment to "win" a discussion, no matter how inaccurate, and then you have absolutely no problem reversing course and taking a stand that is completely the opposite of the one you just took, all in order to appear more sympathetic.

The only one attempting to play all the cards at once is you.

[Hiraeth]

36. ^this^

so.much.this.

[Helen Borg]

42. Typical sexist beginning: Not to be sexist, but...

[stonecutter357]

44. K&R!

[Mountainrider]

58. HRC has lost me

After reading DU for roughly 10 years, I've finally joined! Woohoo! But, I'm sorry to say my motives aren't so joyful. I'll just cut to the chase here and say as a lifelong liberal, 2 time Obama volunteer, longtime outspoken advocate for social and economic justice, and longtime defender of HRC against her many irrational haters, I am disgusted w her baseless and demonstrably false smear of Bernie Sanders. It is an outrageous Rove-worthy attack, especially in the face of his magnanimity re her Emails and other phony nontroversies ginned up by the GOP. No doubt if Bernie concocted some phony narrative about HRC being anti Semitic, her enablers would be going batshit crazy. But that sort of sleazy attack is exactly what's happening here. And no amount of comfort edits can change that fact. Bottom line, after encouraging my fellow Bernie supporters to vote for HRC in the general if she wins the primary, I am changing my tune and will absolutely not be supporting her under any circumstances, not even if Ted Cruz is her opponent. We've survived RWNJ's in office before, and we can survive another one if necessary. But HRC is clearly the shameless pandering pathological liar her enemies paint her as, and I regret ever defending her. Besides, pro war, anti gay, and pro Wall Street ain't exactly progressive values.

[sammythecat]

69. I agree with your criticism and disappointment, but,

I will certainly, though regretfully, vote for her if she is the nominee. My opinion of Hillary has gone from extremely high to pretty damn low, but if it's between her and someone like Ted Cruz, well... that's not even an option. I would definitely vote for her. Not voting at all does nothing and neither does voting for a guaranteed loser. Who ran third party last election, and how many votes did they get? I haven't a clue.

[ms liberty]

59. Except...

What Bernie said was not sexist, nor was his comment addressed to her behavior. He never accused her of shouting about the issue, he directed his comment about an issue directly to her. The "shouting" referred to in his comment is being done by all the concerned parties involved, not he and Hillary. He has used that exact same reference and similar references countless times in regards to this issue alone, and with both men and women.
And to accuse him of a sexist remark for using the word "shouting" is in and of itself ludicrous. Did he say screeching, hysterical yelling, screaming, nagging, bitching? Those would have been sexist, but I've never heard shouting used or described that way. I'm a 56 year old woman, and I've experienced more than my share of sexist remarks and behavior in my life. Bernie was not making a sexist remark, either consciously or unconsciously. And it is embarrassing and infuriating to me as a woman that this kind of bullshit is being used by women as a wedge in a political fight. It trivialize the very real issues that women have faced and still face every day. The women who are pushing this nonsense should be ashamed of themselves.

[That Guy 888]

60. Is this an acknowledgement of your own sexist post?

Voting for a particular candidate based on gender/sex has happened 44 times in our nations history.
It's high time we stop doing that! -> http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251708508

We all say sexist stuff from time to time. Our society is steeped in sexist imagery, language, culture, etc. You cannot escape it.

The way to deal with that is some good old self reflection and possibly some research concerning the oppression of women, to learn more about it and enlighten oneself.

Very sound advice, something that we should all do. I would add that after self-reflection if you honestly feel the person claiming you're sexist is being manipulative, call them on it.

[boston bean]

62. I think you missed the point of that thread... woosh! nt

[That Guy 888]

68. Not in the least

I think you missed the point of my reply.

I would add that after self-reflection if you honestly feel the person claiming you're sexist is being manipulative, call them on it.

I really did not want to get into one of these political (it is posted in General Discussion: Primaries) post that seek to manipulate people who have a different opinion.

[cannabis_flower]

65. Just because someone say something is sexist ...

Doesn't mean it necessarily is.

[sammythecat]

66. So, the word "shouting" is a sexist term?

Bernie used that word to describe and and all people, male or female, singular or plural, on both sides of the gun control debate who vehemently, and unreasonably, demonize those on the opposing side. Bernie's use of the word had absolutely nothing to do with gender, yet Hillary's campaign and many of her supporters here on DU are perfectly pleased that the slanderous implication as planted a seed of doubt in the minds of the less informed.

It was intended to happen this way and I find this tactic to be despicable and, worse, not unexpected.

[boston bean]

67. Characterizing as woman as shouting when she isn't shouting, but making a valid point,

is sexist.

[elias7]

70. Agreed, but that characterization is very specific, and not what happened, specifically

As a result, I hear words being twisted to fit a narrative.

In July, Mr. Sanders, senator of Vermont, said that people needed to “stop shouting at each other” on the issue of guns. In August, he said that “people shouting at each other” about gun control “is not doing anybody any good.” And on Oct. 1, reacting to the mass shooting at a community college in Oregon, he said that the nation needed to “get beyond the shouting” on the issue.

It's a narrow read to claim (and it seems a stretch to me) that he was referring to Hillary in these instances. I, for one, am disappointed that she brought gender into it.

(disclaimer: I am for both HRC and BS, without preference, and for different reasons)

[sammythecat]

72. It wasn't a stretch

It was a deliberate tactic. Slander by "subtle" implication.

[sammythecat]

71. OK. You win. He's a complete sexist asshole.

Plus, he's dumb as hell and just can't learn to suppress his misogynistic rhetoric.

On a side note, I'm also learning just what a gun lovin' racist redneck he really is. The lies and deceit can't work for long and it's just a matter of time until he's exposed as the monster he really is. I wouldn't vote for that heartless prick if it was between him and Dick Cheney. Go Hillary!

[FrodosPet]

78. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Sun Nov 1, 2015, 05:39 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Hey folks saying something is sexist, does not necessarily mean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251753079

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Spam/flamebait thread. We get this same shit, from the same poster, every single day, spreading their lies and putting words in people's mouths. It's textbook trolling.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Nov 1, 2015, 05:47 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see trolling. Leave it.
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Explanation: I agree that this is trolling.
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Explanation: Whether I agree or not, I can't begin to see a reason to hide this one. Must be personal.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[betsuni]

81. K&R!