2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumEvolving on the issues is a good thing.
Like when someone who protests against the Vietnam war and then a couple years later evolves into a potential Marine recruit. And just as she is embarking on a new life as a married woman to a future governor. That is absolutely fantastic evolution.
virtualobserver
(8,760 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)So was the Bosnian snipe fire during the arrival ceremony with the little girl with coiled pigtails and flowers.
Question: Ben Carson crazy delusional, or just someone who has major mood swings?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)It's about effing time, Bernie.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I mean it's not like he hasn't voted on civil rights issues ever. It's not like he was welcomed with open arms to talk to BLM. I really hate how they shunned him.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)After all, one only has to talk the talk to be "good enough."
Armstead
(47,803 posts)Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)He must write really damned slowly.
MADem
(135,425 posts)the draft (from 1 A to 1 C) after trying, and failing, to obtain CO status. But hey, whatever. Nobody with a brain cares about that shit anymore.
Yesterday's gone.
When ya have to go back that far in time to find something to ding, it's really more sour grapes than an actually gripe.
FWIW, "lawyering" in the USN and USMC is a good gig--one gets an awful lot of defense experience as well as prosecutorial experience in a rather protected environment. It's a very good place for a trial lawyer to gain real skills and make a decent wage.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)You'd think a Yale grad would be high on the wanted list. And lawyers dont come much younger than 26.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Back in the day--and young people don't realize or understand this--women were not regarded as equal to men. Women were often kicked out of the service for marrying--it was felt that it was "incompatible" with service. Pregnancy, up until the late seventies/early eighties, was also grounds for termination (at first it was mandatory, and then it became a "Get out of Jail Free" type card).
I wish we had a time machine, so people could go back in time to these days that are romanticized in shows like Mad Men, and see how tough it was if your skin was the "wrong" color or your gender was other than "male." People don't realize that the WANT ADS in the paper were segregated--there were jobs for MEN, and jobs for WOMEN--and they made it plain who they did, and didn't want. No one questioned or protested--if you didn't get in, well, they had their fill.
Up until recent decades, the Ivy League colleges and unis had a "Jewish quota." I believe Harvard's was three per class. No, I'm not joking. This whole concept of "rights" and "equality" and "inclusion" and "nondiscrimination" wasn't a thing back then--you didn't think it was fair, but there wasn't really shit you could do about it.
Lilith Rising
(184 posts)daughter and I were talking about this earlier and SHE was the one who brought up the downsizing aspect.
So, luckily, some young people do know their history
Armstead
(47,803 posts)As for your allegation about Bernie,which is slightly sleazy thing to bring up, Hillary's husband wasn't exactly the soul of honor regarding military service during that time.
Nor the many other young men during that time who evaded the draft by going to college. I must admit I felt it important to pursue a degree in higher education at that time too. ....But after I got a good number in the draft lottery decided to take my chances and left college for a couple of years (knowing that a severe bee sting allergy might have been my version of CO status).
MADem
(135,425 posts)I wouldn't even hold it against Dick Cheney, except that he turned into such a warmonger while he took the easy way out. He was more than willing to feed others into the hopper, when he wouldn't go himself.
Hillary's husband refused an ROTC commission, and agreed to submit himself to the draft. So, not sure what you're on about with him. Did he game the system to buy himself some time because he hated that fucking war and didn't want to go? HELL YES! Was he the only one who played those kinds of games? HELL NO! Was he ready to go if he had to, once he played every card he could to delay the process? Absolutely.
There's nothing odd about HRC contemplating joining the Services particularly the JAG Corps. Though, given that the military across the branches was de-mobbing at a rapid clip, there weren't all that many defendants, and there were probably more than enough JAGS already on board who were trying to stay in and make a career of it, or finish out their twenty to qualify for a retirement. When there are no slots, there are no slots.
I do think the USMC was a poor choice for her, particularly at that time. They've never been "female friendly" but maybe she liked that challenge (to be blunt, I think they STILL suck at it) and she probably would have been treated better at USN or USAF offices--even the Army dealt with women in service better than the Marines did (the USMC used to require their women to take classes in MAKE UP in boot camp--it was regarded as a "uniform item" and part of the seabag).
HRC would not have gone to "boot camp" as I have said elsewhere. But she would have learned "The USMC way" of wearing a uniform and grooming herself. For women, the sexism was quite apparent--have a quick look at this 1974 essay if you don't believe me:
http://americanwomenveterans.org/home/2010/12/i-was-a-woman-marine-trailblazer/
We Women Marines had etiquette classes and were taught that when in a skirted uniform we must always wear or carry white gloves (really), wear girdles (really) full slips (really) and high heels. Pantyhose were a given. Women Marines didnt smoke while walking and certainly didnt call each other you guys.
We heard through the grapevine that the reason for all of this was because the Marine Corps wanted to change the masculine image the public saw of its women.
One interesting thing is the way in which womens uniforms were made for maintenance compared to mens. Women were given those little cloth nametags with our names printed on them and required to sew them into every piece of uniform clothing. Men got a black ink stamp. In boot camp we had to wash every piece of clothing by hand. Somehow I cant see the men doing that. Womens uniforms were specifically made for home ironing. Except for the wool ones; if we sent them to the cleaners, they came back with all sorts of unacceptable creases. All mens uniforms were sent to the laundry. If they had a weird crease, well it was the laundry.
My platoon in boot camp in August 1974 was the last to be awarded the Vietnam Era ribbon, and Saigon had not yet even fallen. It never occurred to me that we were trailblazers.....
That's the recollection of an enlisted recruit. As an officer, HRC would have been even more isolated as likely one of the few -- or maybe even the only -- woman in her command's wardroom. It wasn't an easy road for the women who decided to join the service "as a career" and not just as a temporary adjunct while the 'boys' were fighting during wartime. And--to be entirely blunt about it--the Services did not make this process easy at all. It was all about being Twice As Good For Half The Credit.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)to avoid being sent to Vietnam to kill people. Unless you're into that kind of thing.
840high
(17,196 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Discussion is great; denigration, not so much!
marble falls
(57,246 posts)derive any deferment.
Interesting study on that: https://www2.bc.edu/devlin-hanson/JobMarketPaper.pdf
Agree with you about Navy lawyers. Even if military courts are set up differently than civilian courts. The UCMJ right off the bat starts with an assumption of guilt.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It was a happy situation for him and his child, at the end of the day. His risk was minimal at that point in time, but that's hindsight talking--no one, in the moment, knew if the draft was going to be expanded, if existing deferments were not going to be honored, and so forth. People were "packing for Canada" (to include a few people I knew, they were ready to make a run for the border back when you could walk over easily and there were places where there wasn't even a border station!).
The primary benefit of military lawyering is exposure to pressure, to courtroom time, to martinet judges, to lying defendants, and all the sleaze and excitement of civilian trials, only with different ground rules. Big picture, though, the stressors are similar, and the whole 'learning to argue on one's feet' thing is useful in later life. Most military lawyers don't regret the experience, even if they don't stay in the game for a full career (and it's competitive to do this--there's usually more lawyers than there are billets).
yourout
(7,534 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)much people can evolve - and the month after she married showed up to join the Marines, according to her telling.
She and Mr. Clinton married on Oct. 11, 1975 in Fayetteville.
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/15/us/hillary-clinton-says-she-once-tried-to-be-marine.html
But the Marines could not find a job for a graduate of Yale that had passed the bar.
There is no way on earth a recruiter would have called his commanding officer post-haste to find the appropriate office for a recruit with such qualifications. No way. They would have just sent that recruit straight out of the door without batting an eyelash.
Seriously?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)and expecting integrity from a candidate.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)The H> supporters are reduced to:
"Look!! Hillary can evolve!! She's really not that bad!!"
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)so very strange they don't like Vietnam Protester > failed at being a Marine Recruit.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I managed to protest the Vietnam War AND do a very long career (for which I receive a nice check every month) in the military.
Are you saying anyone who didn't like Vietnam has no business being Commander in Chief?
Or are you saying anyone who didn't get past the female JAG quotas to serve has no business being Commander in Chief? Or are you saying "No uniform, no POTUS?"
I know there is a guy running who applied for CO status and was refused, and then quickly had a child to reduce his chances of being called up and sent to Vietnam--would that count, too? This same guy is now a cheerleader for a new (and, regrettably, LOUSY) fighter aircraft to be stationed in his home state. Those aircraft aren't going to be used to dust crops.
A LOT of people -- including the fellow pictured below--had a "problem" with Vietnam. That "problem" didn't extend to the concept of military service in general.
It's this kind of foolishness that really brings down the level here. It's possible for a smart candidate to have a nuanced view of things. It's only the Gotcha Game Players who don't see that.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Perhaps I didn't say it outright and only allowed for an inference though. So I will spell it out. I have serious doubts that a war protester and the wife of a CO would try to get into the military. I have serious doubts that had she tried at the age of 27 to get in as a lawyer they would have turned her down. I have serious doubts that if the job was a traveling job that she would have done this as a newly wed bride. But, your mileage may vary.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)You already see they're willing to claim Bernie only had a child to get out of the draft so don't waste your time.
They're only here to deny, deflect and derail your thread.
They will spend the next three days trying to provoke you and get the last word.
No one capable of critical thinking believes her story.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)I have seen a lot of their posts. I rarely engage. I would if I could, but it's hard enough for me to walk these days let alone keep up with a gish gallop.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)But, I only have pair of hip boots to give.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I don't have hip waders anymore and I really don't want to take my kayak out in that.
MADem
(135,425 posts)They don't go to OCS, or the academy. They go to an "indoctrination course" where they learn to "sorta" march and they learn the difference between an E-1 and an 0-6. They arrive AS commissioned officers, not "candidates" and not "recruits." They learn how to salute. Chaplains get this treatment at a special chaplain school. Doctors and lawyers get bunched in to a course as a group. It's a very short course, just a few weeks, and there's no screaming, yelling, humiliation, or even arduous inspections. It's all very genteel.
They go to a quick legal course, to learn the UCMJ, and thence to their assignments. After six months, they are promoted to 0-2 (a process that, for a warrior or even a bean counter, normally takes two years) and sent to their initial duty stations. After six more months--and sometimes less, they are promoted to 0-3, a journey that a warfighter would spend a total of four years achieving. The lawyers are often promoted to 0-4 before their fellow line officers who accessed on the same day make 0-3.
Nowadays, you can be Old As Hell and still get into the services. Actually, you could do that anytime if you had special skills (see Hopper, Grace....they just kept dragging her back in). Back then, though, the cut off was more or less as follows: an applicant should not have reached their THIRTY FIFTH birthday by the time they were commissioned. This was in order to do a twenty year career by the time they hit age 55.
Of course, being 27, she was right in the sweet spot for the "Indoctrination" set. Most of the people in an OIS class would have been the same age, or even older. As for doctors, for a rare speciality, like a heart doctor/thoracic surgeon/brain surgeon, they could be as old as the hills and the military would waive their age requirement. I've also seen them do this for Catholic chaplains (who are tough to recruit--they'll throw them in right out of a diocese with a commission and an 0-4 paygrade, without ANY knowledge of military custom/tradition).
Her problem, though, was they weren't taking many women back then. It was an "eye of the needle/Kingdom of Heaven" issue. Women, too, weren't expected, really, to do full careers, and the Services often got irritated if they didn't leave in due time--after all "Didn't they just join to find a husband?" Being married was a HUGE strike against her--it would not have been were she a man. Women with husbands were regarded as less committed, their loyalties divided. Had she been a thoracic surgeon, they would have taken her even with the baggage of a husband (she would have gone to the Navy, though, not the USMC). A lawyer? Not so much.
If you look at the accession numbers for women in service, you see them start to climb in the eighties and maintain pretty much an upward trajectory. This had more to do with OPPORTUNITY than interest--women were always interested in service, they just weren't given the opportunity to serve.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)a highly qualified woman. Yep happens all the time. Keep pretending we don't know discrimination exists. And keep pretending that it's so easy for the military to get people who have those degrees and that much training to join the military at a fraction of the pay they would get in the private sector.
MADem
(135,425 posts)The Services were de-mobbing at the time. The purpose of JAG officers is to provide military advice to commanders, and to act as prosecutors and defense attorneys to military personnel who find themselves in hot water owing to an abrogation of the UCMJ.
All the 'defendants' were leaving--they didn't need MORE lawyers, they needed to get rid of the ones they already had. Why take on a) a woman (not the most popular gender in terms of their wants/needs), b) a MARRIED woman (double whammy--at the time they regarded marriage as somewhat incompatible with service...but only for WOMEN; for men it was a plus).
I've explained here how lawyers go into the services at, within a year, a three-paygrade jump on their peers and accelerated promotion opportunities. There's a reason why people join--the experience is great, there's a lot of case work, and a lawyer can get lots of trial experience FAST, if that is what they want. The money isn't bad (not every law school graduate goes to a big fish firm, many go work in public defender jobs), the travel is fun, and each service has a flag/general officer JAG because some of them find it fun enough to stay. There used to be a deferment program for student loans, too--not sure if that's still on the books, but that was a plus, as well--gave people a chance to get their finances in order before they added that bill to their mix.
Nowadays, the JAG officers needed for "plus ups" are Lindsey Grahams--reservists. They don't need an overly large cadre of personnel because they've got 'em as weekend warriors if they need them.
Recruiting is largely at the mercy of the national economy. If the economy is good, and jobs are plentiful, it is tough to get butts on the bus. If the economy is lousy, the standards are raised, the Services get picky, and they institute damn near UNREASONABLE standards of excellence in their recruiting process. It's also at the mercy of what's called 'end strength.' If Congress lowers this number, then the Services are tasked with maintaining (managing the retirement/release from ACDU and recruitment of replacements into the pipeline) a smaller cadre; if they up the number, then they've got to put additional recruiters on the streets beating the bushes.
I've seen both feast and famine in this regard. In the decade following the immediate post-Vietnam era, the Services recruited some of the highest quality personnel they've ever been able to acquire, simply because they had so little need, they could afford to be fussy. During the Reagan era, when Saint Ronnie of Raygun wanted to shake his fist at the Soviet Empire, there was a shitload of lower quality recruit accession happening, because he wanted large numbers and a six hundred ship Navy.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)When I joined the Marines boot camp was FULL of new brides with ivy league educations who had just purchased new homes with their husbands.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and then there is asserting that you own Burger King.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Just because we don't believe her story.
It takes nerve to peddle this bullshit on veteran's day.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Those that believe that ordinary people are stupid enough to believe such horseshittery, or those who feel obligated to defend it for some unknown reason.
I mean, Seriously?
No - really, Seriously?
Damn, I've heard tall tales before, but DAMN ...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)So bitter and hateful, all because she dragged out this fake story on veteran's day and is getting criticized for it.
Desperate and pathetic.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)probably because I had to put some people on ignore for the sake of my sanity.
I'm speechless and grateful for ignore.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Time to turn the ugly side of DU off.
840high
(17,196 posts)worked in Santa's workshop.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Her for thinking this is acceptable behaviour or those who are gullible enough to believe her story.
Maybe you shouldn't say anything about Santa, wouldn't want to ruin Christmas for anyone.
840high
(17,196 posts)people are stupid.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Some people will believe anything.
Just ask Ben Carson's supporters.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)winter is coming
(11,785 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)dsc
(52,166 posts)no wait they did no such thing. Women were considered above gays but barely. It is easy to see a Marine recruiter deciding that a woman wasn't what he wanted in his Marine corps.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)There was absolutely no need for JAG officers due to the charges numerous Marines, specifically, had accrued during the Vietnam War.
A married, straight woman with an Ivy League diploma would have gotten turned away in that specific environment?
Do you *honestly* ... now I ask you, and you don't have to respond back, that they would have *honestly* rejected her?
dsc
(52,166 posts)a specific recruiting officer in Arkansas yes. They aren't watched 24/7 and likely have their own prejudices. My brother was in the navy in the 1980's and women were still thought of by the majority of the men they served beside as either lesbians or hos.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Not the commissioned, which she would have most certainly been.
The entire fabrication is so bad, I'm not even certain how anyone can defend it.
Look, we need to get this crap sorted out before the general election season starts.
Do you think I'm harshing on your Hillary buzz? Because I am an absolute fraction of what is going to hit her and our party come the General Election. Lies and fairy tales are going to kill us in the general, and I want to make sure that does not happen.
dsc
(52,166 posts)so while he wasn't commissioned he was around what would, in theory, be the most enlightened people. Recruiters, on the other hand, are not the most enlightened people in the military. Again, even now, the Marines were opposed to ending DADT (the only joint chief who opposed it was the Marine Commandant and the only service whose members weren't in support were the Marines) and are adamantly against women in combat and this is some 35 years in the case of DADT and 40 years in the case of women in combat after this happened. Hell yeah I think some recruit in Little Rock would be sexist enough to reject Hillary.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Not a doctor, not a specialist in law.
You absolutely do not enter the Navy/Marines as a specialist without being a CO. No one under the sun that is worth the shoes they shined that morning would have disparaged and turned her away, particularly when JAG was short staffed.
You are sexist yourself for portraying the Marines as being so awful, when they have historically enlisted some outstanding women.
This kind of silly colloquial tale-telling is what is going to screw up the GE for us if Hillary is elected. Not because she is a woman. Not because she is intellectually unqualified.
Because she is morally compromised. This is the kind of thing she will get hammered with, and it's absolute bullshit to pretend it is anything other than a story like "bullets over Bosnia".
To do it the day before Veterans day, and on the anniversary of the Marines makes it particularly repugnant.
And calling those in the Army dogs.
She may as well have just gone out of her way to slap the face of everyone in the vicinity with her childishness.
dsc
(52,166 posts)my point wasn't that he was an officer but that the attitudes of his part of the navy would have been vastly better in regards to gays and women than the rest of the navy and even it was pretty awful toward women. I did a quick look up, all I can do since I have to get to work, but the first woman judge in the Marines was in 1970. Women today are still under 10 percent of the Marines. The Marines have not been a woman friendly place to work and they haven't lead the armed services in this regard. It is ridiculous to call a person sexist for pointing that fact out. https://www.womenmarines.org/wm_history.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
MADem
(135,425 posts)and center.
What "charges numerous Marines, specifically, had accrued?" The miltary wasn't interested in rounding up people accused of war crimes, people got away with (quite literally) murder, unless your name was Calley. He was the exception, not the rule.
Why would they need more lawyers when there were so few people left on active duty, committing crimes?
In 1969, USMC had nearly 310K acdu on board. In 1974, that number was down to 189K.
The facts do matter, here:
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Especially considering the fact that her husband was a c/o and they had just bought a house.
No one is claiming that the Marines weren't sexist, hell a lot of them still don't want women in the Corps.
They just don't believe her story.
dsc
(52,166 posts)He opposed the war but put his name in the draft and refused a ROTC commission. As to the other issue, the poster I was responding to just said the exact opposite of what you just said.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Not when they are always looking for JAG officers.
I don't believe any part of her story.
You don't up and decide to join the Marines on a lark when you just got married and bought a house. And if you truly want to serve your country you don't give up because one recruiter discourages you.
If she wanted to serve and was turned down she could have tried another branch.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)with an Ivy League education as an enlisted. You enter as a c/o.
Are you seriously going to tell me that the Marine Corps recruiters are unable and unwilling to contact a CO to figure out where to send a recruit with her credentials?
Seriously?
You have quite a bit to learn.
dsc
(52,166 posts)and he wasn't. I assumed he meant conscientious objector but even commissioned officer is wrong in that regard. She might well have entered as an officer but he was no such thing.
dsc
(52,166 posts)via telepathy. She went to one recruiter who said, drop dead. You think this man then turned around and said, hey I told this woman to drop dead but here is her contact info.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You either are sincere in your efforts, or you are not.
If she did not specifically state her qualifications, she was not serious.
Thank you. You unraveled the whole tale right there.
dsc
(52,166 posts)due to being too gay, or too fat, or having too bad of eyesight (all three would have applied to me at various times) I would have taken no for an answer.
that just went through your mind benefited you. Because I heard it from here.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Especially when it costs lives.