Hillary Clinton was played for a chump by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy she was the first to name

[Fumesucker]

I've had this OP in mind for a while now, I've been holding off because I don't particularly enjoy being divisive but the events of the last twelve hours or so in Paris have made this subject far more relevant than it would have been otherwise.

Hillary was a chump, there is no doubt about it, she believed The Big Lie told by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that Iraq was an existential threat to the United States. That she was played for a chump isn't the worst of it, she then went on to help catapult the VRWC lies to the people of the United States in order to further the invasion of Iraq which led to further destabilizing the the most volatile area of the planet, the Middle East.

There is an old saying about fools rushing in where angels fear to tread, if there is anyone on this planet who should have known that the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy is not to be trusted that person is Hillary Rodham Clinton. There is no excuse for the level of naivete she showed in the matter of the Iraq war and invasion.

I am horrified and dismayed beyond my capacity to adequately describe that a chump of this magnitude is the likely Democratic nominee and next President of the USA.

[tecelote]

1. Hillary is way better than any Republican candidate.

But, she is miles away from the consistent and morally superior option.

Hillary plays the game. We need a leader.

[Smarmie Doofus]

7. Ummmm. It would appear that one is at hand.

>>>We need a leader.>>>>>

And it ain't her.

And while we may generally agree that we NEED a "leader"... a lot of us ( even here) really don't seem to WANT one.

[tecelote]

8. I may have stated that wrong.

Hillary plays the game (meaning she is just a player). The leader, the consistent and morally superior option, is Bernie.

[aspirant]

9. Can a "chump" really "evolve" into a "Champion"

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

11. Highly doubtful Hillary can.

[stillwaiting]

16. "Tell me something real". nt

[AlbertCat]

35. Hillary is way better than any Republican candidate.

Such a low bar.

[persuadable]

46. I supported the war in Iraq at that time

Most Americans did. So who do you want to lead us in this time of danger? Trump, Rubio, Carson, Cruz, or Bush? Sanders would be nice, but based on what is happening now, Americans are afraid, so Bernie is not going to happen.

[NV Whino]

74. "Most" Americans did not support the Iraq war

The Neocons promoted and supported the war. Most of us saw through their so called reasoning. The fact that people like Hillary and DiFi didn't is appalling.

[Fawke Em]

75. "Most Americans did."

But, "most Americans" didn't have access to the data and were beaten over the head with M$M propaganda. I don't blame "most Americans" for believing there was a threat.

However, a good many of us Americans didn't support the war in Iraq because we could see the intelligence was faulty. Bernie Sanders, for one, could see the intelligence was faulty.

Did we go to war with the Caucus region because the Boston Marathon was bombed by someone from there? No. Did we go to war with Kuwait after it's native son, Ramzi Yousef, was from there? No. Did we go to war with New York because Timothy McVeigh was from there? No.

We don't need to go to war every time there's a terrorist attack. We need to acknowledge our role in creating these terrorist groups by our biased role in the Middle East.

We need to use the legal system to punish any living perpetrators.

We also need to stop hawks like Hillary Clinton from making things worse. It can be argued that her hard-line views, her war vote and absolute support of Israel have helped create the atmosphere that has given us ISIL and other extremists. The root cause of terrorism isn't that "they hate our freedom," it's poverty, lack of education and anger at not being treated fairly by the biggest superpower in the world community, among other things.

[Hepburn]

98. I sure as hell did not and I did not have the info that those in the Congress had.

That is no excuse to say Hillary's vote is or was OK. It was not...and it never will be. PERIOD.

What I am afraid of is the creation of MORE terrorists if we fuck up again like we did with Iraq and are stupid enough to allow a hawk like HRC to lead us.

JMHO

[Thinkingabout]

2. Chump? Who provided the chump story when the ISIS resolution to congressional members voted against

The resolution where the serious threat was a lie?

[Thinkingabout]

39. Wow, now since Sanders voted against the ISIS Resolution, lets put the continued actions of ISIS

On him. He voted no when action was presented to congress so this group has continued. It is on Sanders.

[Thinkingabout]

65. Clinton thought Bush would follow the IWR, he didn't, Saudi Arabia did not handle ISIL, so since so

many here wants to blame the Iraq war on Clinton, then these actions of ISIL is on Sanders.

[Fawke Em]

76. Thanks for making our point.

Anyone who believed Bush would do the right thing has poor judgment to begin with.

[Thinkingabout]

95. What about Sanders poor judgement, Saudi did not step up.

[72DejaVu]

3. If, on this day, what horrifies and dismays you

is the possibility of Hilary Clinton being elected president, than all I can do is pity you.

[Fumesucker]

4. It's been more or less a constant state for me since the 2000 election

And definitely since 9/11/2001..

[earthside]

56. It horrifies me.

The Repuglican candidates are what they are and we all know it.

Hillary plays this "I'll be tough, I can start a war just like any other man Commander-in-Chief. But, oh, I'm a peacenik, too, for all you liberals I need to get me the nomination."

That kind of chumpiness and cynicism indeed horrifies me ... that kind of approach could get a lot of people killed.

[aspirant]

5. Does Hills insist

on prosecuting the Bush War Criminals?

[elehhhhna]

6. Fuck no.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

12. Pretty much tells you where Hillary's loyalties lie.

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. As (REDUX)

I am horrified and dismayed beyond my capacity to adequately describe that a chump of this magnitude is the likely Democratic nominee and next President of the USA

.


As Hillary Clinton 's march to the nomination and the presidency becomes more and more unstoppable expect the attacks on her and her supporters to become more vitriolic as they grow exponentially...

<calmly prepares for the attack of the Brigade>

[Fumesucker]

13. You disagree that Hillary was chumped by the VRWC?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I disagree with just about everything you write but ...

I disagree with just about everything you write but I do appreciate you taking the time to solicit my opinion.

Thank you in advance.

<next batter up>

[Fawke Em]

78. You didn't strike out that batter.

I guess the next batter up is because the last one hit it out of the park.

The neo-cons AND the neo-liberals are the BIGGEST reason ISIL exists. Their policies have driven a lot of people in the Middle East into these terrorism groups by supporting the destabilization of the region with their wars, leaving the people in poverty and with no access to education, stability or jobs. Oh - and by always supporting Israel and their insane leader no matter how atrocious their policies are toward the Palestinians.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. I struck out every batter who came up against the plate against me.

I struck out every batter who came to the plate against me. if your bias against me disallows you to see it I suggest you peer into your own self and not mine.

Oh - and by always supporting Israel and their insane leader no matter how atrocious their policies are toward the Palestinians.

Maybe Hillary should tell her interlocutors on Israel/Palestine to shut up:

[link:http://|

[Fawke Em]

92. You haven't struck them out, no.

Any person who has studied this issue knows your responses are trite and lack a full knowledge about this issue, the region and the policies that lead us to where we are now. It's not a bias on my part. I have a close and personal reason to study this issue more fully than the average American, but I also find it odd that our media doesn't delve into these issues since we've been at constant war there since 2002. Maybe it's not your fault you don't seem to really know that much about this issue.

And telling some hecklers in a crowd to shut it is a far, far, far cry from voting for a war to destabilize the region and continuing disastrous policies as SoS unless and until the president stopped her. Please, don't insult my intelligence.

Here's Sanders' position on I/P. It's not perfect and needs some finessing, but it's much better than the neo-con/lib answer of "bomb first, ask questions later":

Bernie thinks there has been little progress in the conflict over the decades because both sides have resorted to “empty rhetoric and violence” instead of confronting the challenges head-on.

Bernie supported funding an Israeli-Palestinian Peace, Reconciliation and Democracy Fund, to finance both Israeli and Palestinian organizations committed to the “promotion of democracy, human rights, freedom of the press, and non-violence among Palestinians, and peaceful coexistence and reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians.”

Haven’t both sides employed violent tactics at times?

Yes. Bernie believes both sides have to own up to their failures in order to achieve a resolution to the conflict — and they must both acknowledge the other’s right to exist.

Bernie has condemned — and sees as a barrier to peace — the terrorist actions of Hamas, including their practice of firing rockets into houses and urban centers. Bernie has also called Israel’s attacks on Palestinians “reprehensible,” particularly in the context of Israel being the occupying power in the conflict.

Bernie distinguishes between Hamas’ tactics and the Palestinians, and has supported U.S. legislation that provides aid for Palestinians. Similarly, Bernie distinguishes between Israel and its government. Although he is supportive of the State of Israel, he is “not a great fan” of the current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and his tactics to address issues in the Middle East region.

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-israel-and-the-palestinians/

On Edit: What would Hillary do? Kiss Netanyahu's ass. She's already said as much.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

94. I would never tell folks who yearn to be free to "shut up"

I would never tell folks who yearn to be free to "shut up". But then I never had that outsized sense of entitlement. Being empathetic means not just showing empathy for people you agree with but showing empathy for people with whom you disagree with.

[1StrongBlackMan]

19. This ought'a be good ...

I predict a minimum of three OP, pointing to this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141260090

as proof positive that the debates are rigged to play to HRC's strength, foreign affairs.

I suspect the difference in the depth and amount of knowledge and understanding will be on full display ... and it will not bode well for O'Malley or Bernie.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Twenty nine Senate Democrats...

Twenty nine Senate Democrats voted for the Iraq War Resolution including the sitting vice president and the current Secretary Of State. I have been a member of this august board since 2003 and I don't remember being instructed to vote against the Kerry-Edwards ticket in 2004 which had two IWR supporters on it nor do I remember being instructed to vote against the Obama-Biden ticket in 2008 and 2012 because it had one IWR supporter on it.

In retrospect it was a bad vote and George Bush used the power granted to him unwisely but I will not hold one woman out for invidious discrimination and instead will judge her by the same standards by which I judged the twenty eight other Senate Democrats who joined her.

[1StrongBlackMan]

26. Hmmm ...

I don't remember being instructed to vote against the Kerry-Edwards ticket in 2004 which had two IWR supporters on it nor do I remember being instructed to vote against the Obama-Biden ticket in 2008 and 2012 because it had one IWR supporter on it.

Funny, that!

You are not suggesting that the current (and with the benefit of hindsight) single disqualifying vote narrative is disingenuous, are you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. You decide, sir

58% of Democratic senators (29 of 50) voted for the resolution. Those voting for the resolution were:
Lincoln (D-AR)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Dodd (D-CT)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Biden (D-DE)
Carper (D-DE)
Bill Nelson (D-FL)
Cleland (D-GA)
Miller (D-GA)
Bayh (D-IN)
Harkin (D-IA)
Breaux (D-LA)
Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
Kerry (D-MA)[
Carnahan (D-MO)
Baucus (D-MT)
Ben Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Torricelli (D-NJ)
Clinton (D-NY)
Schumer (D-NY)
Edwards (D-NC)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Hollings (D-SC)
Daschle (D-SD)
Johnson (D-SD)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Kohl (D-WI)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. I was never asked to vote for her in a general election.

Rogue Democrat
I see you didn't bold Clinton's name



It's right between Torricelli and Schumer.

I was never asked to vote for her in a general election.

[Fawke Em]

84. Here's the point: I had to hold my nose to vote for that ticket.

I'm tired of doing that, so I won't do it anymore. Obama was fine (who votes for the VP, anyway?) and I supported him over Clinton and then in the general. I voted for him all four times (two primaries, two general elections).

I live in a red state. I don't have to worry that if I don't vote for Clinton should she become the nominee that I'll hurt anybody's anything. My state will give it's ECs to the Republican, anyway. I can show my displeasure with the neo-liberal, corporate-owned candidates the DNC keeps serving me with a clear conscience.

What I can't fathom is why an Obama supporter would even be a Hillary supporter, especially after her shenanigans in the 2008 election against him. I always thought Obama appointed her as SoC to keep his enemies close and to keep her from primarying him in 2012.

[1StrongBlackMan]

90. Here's a larger, and very real, point ...

presidential elections have serious consequences. A Republican victory would not simply mean that our side “lost” and the other side “won.” It would have a profound impact on the lives of millions if not billions of people: For the countless working class individuals and families who need presidential policies that will stimulate job growth and improve our collective standard of living, such as they received under Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and would be much less likely to experience under a Republican administration; for the children who need our country’s leadership to recognize and seriously confront man-made climate change before our planet is rendered uninhabitable; for the Americans who have benefited from President Obama’s health care reform plan since it was implemented and could lose their insurance or worse; for the generation of senior citizens who have paid into Social Security throughout their lives and would have that safety net delayed or ripped away completely; and for historically marginalized groups, from Mexican immigrants and women to members of the LGBT community, who deserve to be led by a party that doesn’t actively reward presidential candidates for spewing hatred against them.

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/12/hey_progressives_hillary_isnt_the_enemy_im_a_sanders_supporter_but_im_sick_of_bernie_bros_clinton_derangement_syndrome/

And ...

I live in a red state. I don't have to worry that if I don't vote for Clinton should she become the nominee that I'll hurt anybody's anything. My state will give it's ECs to the Republican, anyway. I can show my displeasure with the neo-liberal, corporate-owned candidates the DNC keeps serving me with a clear conscience.

Just think if the "1,000,000s" of Bernie supporters heed your advise ... as with Nader, we will see the unthinkable; but, your clear conscience will do so much to benefit everyone ... beyond you and your conscience.

Should the unspeakable occur, I look forward to your, clear conscience, expressions of outrage at the gutting of everything North of FDR.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I said no such thing but lying about me says more about you than it can ever say about me.

You agree that Hillary Clinton inadvertently helped create ISIL by voting for the IWR resolution? Me too.

I said no such thing but lying about me says more about you than it can ever say about me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. Dispassionate and dissembling are not synonymous

EOM

[Fred Sanders]

14. The Way Back Time Machine being fired up by the left left to attack Clinton is a good sign for her.

Remember Way Back when Warren was a proud Republican?

But I am more interested in the future, me and my children have a lot of future yet, and not dredging the depths of the past for perfection in Clinton as seen through the rear view mirror.

We surely have seen it before...demanding perfection of Obama also....same demands, same complaints...usually from the RW.

I would do the same for Sanders and his imperfect votes against gun control, his imperfect votes on Palestine, to name two.

Demanding Perfection is not my thing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. LOL

[Cassiopeia]

18. I agree with everything except your final line.

The voters have yet to speak in the nomination process, but even if Clinton takes it I don't see her winning a GE.

With that said the narrative that she did the best she could with the information she had is ridiculous. All one had to do was watch the damn news to know the IWR was a fools errand.

[peacebird]

22. Exactly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. I will take that wager.

he voters have yet to speak in the nomination process, but even if Clinton takes it I don't see her winning a GE.

I will take that wager. Madame Secretary wins the G E I give the $500.00 I won from you to charity. I am not interested in filthy lucre or pecuniary gain. Madame Secretary loses the the G E I give you $500.00 to do with whatever you want.

[Cassiopeia]

25. This isn't a sport to be gambled on.

There is far too much at stake to make it a cheap reality show to bet on.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. But it would be a demonstration of your level of confidence ...

in which, regardless of the result, some charity, somewhere, benefits.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. Au contraire

but even if Clinton takes it I don't see her winning a GE.

-Cassieopeia

I will take that wager. Madame Secretary wins the G E I give the $500.00 I won from you to charity. I am not interested in filthy lucre or pecuniary gain. Madame Secretary loses the the G E I give you $500.00 to do with whatever you want.

-DemocratSinceBirth

Seems noble... $500.00 goes to charity. You can donate your $500.00 to charity in the unlikely event Hillary loses the G E.

[dreamnightwind]

21. I think she's a hawk, not a chump

I'm certain she's no chump. It's for you to decide which is worse, being fooled or being aligned with the greater agenda which badly wanted multiple regime changes in the middle east.

If they had gone after the Saudis they could have claimed at least a whiff of moral high ground, that's one regime that is in desperate need of change.

No, they went after Afghanistan (Taliban, so there's that, but mostly just a host country for the terrorist training grounds, whereas the source was Saudi Arabia). They went after Iraq. Their hands were all over the regimes being toppled in Egypt, Libya, Syria, the Ukraine, the current mess in Yemen, and they can't wait to "do" Iran.

Hillary dd more than approve the IWR, she and her State Department had their fingers in all of the above.

PNAC anyone?

DLC's PNAC Document - Hillary Clinton On America's Strategy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251495072

There is a frightening amount of overlap between neocon policies and the DLC/New Dem foreign policies.

Calling Hillary a chump, IMHO, for being duped by the right-wing into supporting the Iraq War, misses the mark. Perhaps you were being kind, and suggested the more innocent of reasons she could have supported it.

I have no doubts about Hillary's intelligence, she is nobody's fool. What we're dealing with here is someone that is a true believer in the U.S. as global police and as the military arm of global corporate resource extraction and a permanent state of warfare and foreign interventions.

I think the public deserves a choice in this matter. We have the Republican Party to push this agenda. The Democratic Party needs to offer an alternative foreign policy, one that respects the sovereignty of other nations, values peace over profits, and that doesn't rob the U.S. Treasury of the funds we need to care for our people from birth to death in a dignified manner.

The question is, are we even allowed a choice in this, or are we so far down the foxhole that only candidates who support the war machine have a chance? Scary question.

Bernie's a large step in the right direction. He'll have limited control over the machine, but he's no war hawk, and can make a difference.

[polly7]

24. +1,000,000. nt.

[Locrian]

32. +1000 ^^^^

I also think that in addition to being actively for it, that she *always* does the political calculation and if there is any lingering doubt - goes with the "easy way out". IE she would never buck the "bubble wisdom" of the status quo and fight. She will always tip to the "acceptable" position of the powers that be. And that ain't us.

[AlbertCat]

40. Exactly.

"suggested the more innocent of reasons she could have supported it. "

Don't forget political expediency!

[Cheese Sandwich]

59. Yep it's too generous to assume politicians have good intentions.

[azmom]

101. [phone]

[Scuba]

27. "Naivete"? No, I'm going with "complicity."

[MissDeeds]

54. Exactly n/t

[Enthusiast]

55. Either way.

[reformist2]

28. I think she knew it was a lie, but voted for war anyway - it was too risky to vote no.

Any savvy politician wanting to be president back then realized the risks of voting against the war, especially in the climate after 9/11 and after the success of the first Gulf War. They risked looking fringe, wacko, wrong. Not the kind of image that gets you elected president. So Hillary put on her chickenhawk suit, along with all the other Republicans, and sadly too many Democrats, and the rest is history.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

86. It is a test of character. We need a president who is not going to cave

Bernie is authentic and has conviction. He is not afraid to stand his ground and is not a weather vane.

[Demeter]

31. She was thinking to use the RW Conspiracy for her own ends...like jujitsu

when you use an opponent's own strength and moves to overcome him.

It didn't work for her, however.

So, "if you can't beat them..." and that's the story now. It makes me queasy, frankly.

[wyldwolf]

34. speaking of getting played as a chump

Anyone who believes - really believes - that a 'my way or the highway' candidate can be elected after spending years disrespecting the Democratic party and can shepherd any meaningful legislation with a Congress ruled by Republicans is being played as a chump.

[AlbertCat]

42. a 'my way or the highway' candidate .... after spending years disrespecting the Democratic party

Trump can't win!


There isn't one of these candidates you mentioned running in the Dem primary.

[wyldwolf]

63. Of course there is

His name is Bernie Sanders.

[Fawke Em]

88. Hmm... so the candidate who has worked with all-comers to

get the most done in Congress is the "my way or the highway" candidate?

Odd position to take.

[wyldwolf]

96. You're contention is Sanders has gotten the most done in Congress?

LOL.

While you're trying to prove that laugh line, why not go ahead and show us how a Republican Congress will embrace him?

[dreamnightwind]

99. We could just elect a Republican, that way they could get stuff done with a Republican Congress

You think the Republican Congress embraced Obama, or will embrace Hillary? I certainly don't.

Tired of that game, it leads to nothingnbut a Republican agenda.

It's time to articulate and work towards progressive policies. They poll well, people love them. Let the Republicans oppose them, they will get voted out.

[wyldwolf]

100. 'Embracing' is not the point.

At least a willingness to compromise is - something that's poison to 'progressives.'

[dreamnightwind]

103. Not at all

Compromise is a huge part of an negotiation, I'm all for it. I think progressives are actually MORE likely to look for compromise than the average person, it's what helps differentiate us from authoritarians and right wingers.

It's about what are you fighting for, what common ground are you reaching out to the other side for?

It's really a corporate versus populist dichotomy. There are populist interests on the right, and Sanders does well in reaching them. If you aren't aware of that, you haven't been paying attention to Bernie's career.

The intersection between corporatist Democrats and Republicans results in policies that are bad for at least 99% of the people. That's the kind of compromise we don't need.

[AlbertCat]

106. His name is Bernie Sanders.

Nope.

But believe absurd baloney if you wish.

[Loki]

44. Oh wow, another anti Hillary post.

Which one of the Republican insane clown posse would you prefer for President, sucker? When you insist on demeaning either or anyone of our candidates, you are working against electing a Democrat and also working against electing Democrats in the House and Senate, which we desperately need to make this country sane again. They have all made votes I disagree with, but that doesn't make me stupid enough to think that voting for Bernie Sanders, even though I love that man, a viable alternative to the anti American Republicans who will do anything to win. We cannot afford another "Nader". If you want to point fingers to the beginning of what we call ISIS and of OBL, look no further than GHWB and the stationing of our troops on Saudi soil to attack Iraq. It all leads back to Bush and many people and many in government were lied to, and I wish we were all perfect like in your world.

[Android3.14]

49. The IWR is something for which an ethical person would beg forgiveness

As far as the taunting HRC supporters who say, "Well, Bernie voted to fund the troops...", I have a story.

A man is fighting with a mob who wants to set fire to a crack house. The man points out that the house also has innocent people living in it. The mob shouts down the man. A woman at the back of the mob urges caution, but agrees they should burn the house down, and basks in the cheers from the mob. The mob sets the fire, but manages to get stuck in the flaming building along with the drug addicts and all the innocent people. When the man calls the fire department and starts spraying water on the building, the village idiot wanders by and begins taunting the man for starting the fire.

[Enthusiast]

51. Fumesucker, you are exactly correct. I don't doubt the existence of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

But the VRWC relies on misinformation (lies) as their primary tool. It is almost as if lies are the only tool in the tool box. We could also include character assassination as a tool but often character assassination relies on lies.

You nailed it! Gullible.

[yallerdawg]

52. It is simply amazing Hillary Haters...

would think we are so stupid as to fall for this pile of BS that America's and the world's issues with Iraq and Saddam Hussein originated from that one vote by Hillary on the Iraq Resolution.

This distortion of history is amazing, and it takes away any responsibility from the ones most responsible - Saddam Hussein and the people who did his bidding.

Democrats have a long history of losing elections when we look like we blame the victims.

[reformist2]

58. So basically, Saddam had it coming, so Hillary's vote is ok? Wow.

[yallerdawg]

64. I have never understood...

the causality of Hillary's vote in relation to the Iraq War.

I bet you don't have an inkling of what the Iraq Resolution actually said. Or what Hillary said about her vote.

And how many Senators actually represented the primary target of the extremist terrorists - the people our government failed to protect - and you want the junior senator from New York to tell those people, "Trust me, I'm pretty sure our mortal enemy in Iraq has no plans to attack us - we need to worry about the guy hiding in a cave."

When you leave out history and context to gin-up a political agenda, expect to lose all credibility.

[oasis]

77. Han Blix was yanked before he could complete his search for WMD.

Bush/ Cheney double crossed those who signed the IWR.

Those who ignore this fact can't expect to be taken seriously.

[yallerdawg]

85. So you're blaming Bush/Cheney.

Bush had the power.

Saddam Hussein could have stopped this, too. He was told to just leave. He did not.

[oasis]

91. So much was uncovered months and years after the invasion.

I'm amazed that so many here at DU claim they knew more than elected officials who were presented with false evidence prior to the invasion.

Even if everything Bush/Cheney said about Saddam's treat to the U.S.were true, some Democrats were never going to vote for IWR no matter what. It's not like they were more insightful than those who did.

Just bring on the debates already, we'll see who looks stronger on national defense.

[bahrbearian]

97. I want some one who right about defense , not some one who looks strong on defense.

Remember Chimpie keep us safe, he was strong on National Defense.

[That Guy 888]

102. Why were the Dixie Chicks nicknamed the Blixie Chicks?

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong, but it sounds like you're saying there wasn't easily obtained public information that made clear that shrub's war of choice was the wrong way to go.

The M-I-C here and abroad wanted their war, and the Dems who voted for the IWR tested which way the political winds were blowing and voted accordingly.

[oasis]

105. I voted for the Kerry/Edwards ticket in 2004. So did

many millions of other Democrats. This would indicate that some of us have the capacity to move on.


Others who just can't let go of the IWR issue are quick to give a psychological evaluation of the Democrats who helped pass the resolution. They lumped them all together, with claims that political expediency caused "all of them" to fall short of ethical standards and "vote for war". Can any accuser
say they knew what went on in the head of each individual legislator and how they arrived at their final decision?

I don't question the motives or agenda of any IWR "accuser". That would be unfair, since I am no expert in the field of psychology.

[Cheese Sandwich]

57. Every politician who supported invading Iraq should hang their head.

But it gets worse because then they also supported the policy of regime change in Syria, basically giving weapons to terrorists to overthrow the Syria government. And that one is hard to blame on Bush since it mostly happen during Obama and Hillary Clinton.

[FlatBaroque]

60. You know very well it was a political calculation. nt

[Broward]

61. I don't think she's a chump. I think she knew exactly what she was doing.

[Doctor_J]

62. I think it's simpler than that.

She's just a dc insider, life long politician, who does whatever is popular at the moment. Her life as a politician has left her without a soul. When ssm wasn't popular, she was against it. Now she's for it. She was against TPP, then for it, now against it, and will switch back again once she's in the white house. Can you think of a single issue on which she's fought against the polls?

[tblue37]

66. What is "ssm"? nt

[Doctor_J]

67. same sex marriage

[tblue37]

68. Thanks. I had not seen that abbreviation before. nt

[JoePhilly]

69. She's been kicking RW ass for 20+ years.

Chump.

[reformist2]

70. No she hasn't. She and her centrist friends have turned the Dems into the minority party.

[JoePhilly]

71. Lol, ok.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. She was monumentally stupid or cynically expedient. Either of which makes her unfit.

[Joe Turner]

73. What irks me the most about the invasion of Iraq

is that the Bush administration knew Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 911, had no weapons of mass destruction and used 911 as a pretext for invasion because of a demented dream for Middle East conquest (and plunder) called "The Project for the New American Century"--and of course "Saddam tried to kill my Daddy".[br /]
I remember at the time being surprised that Bush would want to start a grand scale military effort in Iraq when Iraq would be the last country in the region that would harbor terrorists...given Saddam's brutal way of dealing with terrorists. Not to mention that Bin Laden was still at large and we already had military operations in Afghanistan. [br /]
Yes the Bush regime played our country and the world for suckers with their lies...although I believe there were more that a few major political players outside the administration that knew the real score...i.e. Tony Blair. And yes Hillary was another sucker that should have known better given her experience with radical right wing extremists. Also find it hard to believe that Bill Clinton as a recently retired president would not have known what the real agenda of the Iraq invasion was.[br /]
By the way Fumesucker that was a beautifully written post.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

83. The American people were bing played by Bush and Cheney

and Hillary et al including Blair were part of it.

[colsohlibgal]

79. I Cannot Believe She Believed

She is a lot of things but dumb isn't one of those things. I actually think something even worse, I think she was a coward, afraid to vote no.

Whichever it was she now has even more blood on her hands, along with the perps and the other enablers. The damage caused by our criminal Iraq invasion keeps growing.

[GoneFishin]

80. It appears that her problem with the VRWC was that they wouldn't let her play with them.

I think they are coming around though.

[Fawke Em]

82. Your OP is perfectly acceptable to me.

It's the choices we've allowed the neocons and neoliberals to make that have created groups like ISIL and other extremists.

Clinton is a neoliberal who voted for the Iraq War that helped destabilize the region. Her decisions as a senator and secretary of state has helped create this - she should own it.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

87. That's why she lost in 2008

voters knew that she was played and she gets played very easily. As the years go on people forget. I would be nervous about her presidency.

[Fawke Em]

89. I'd be scared to death of her presidency.

My son is half Palestinian and I've seen how she treats them.

[Dem2]

93. Hillary is a chump.

Chump: a foolish or easily deceived person.

Hillary is foolish and gullible.

OK.

[Hydra]

104. It's the more polite of the alternatives, and the more unlikely

The alternative is that she was instrumental in enabling the Bushco war crimes, and was and still is on their team. She and Bill have even been adopted into the Bush family.

Is that better?