Expect Hillary to put on her hawk beak for tonight's debate.

[Avalux]

I fully expect, if the debate is held as planned, that Hillary will take the hard line. I challenge anyone to disagree with me.

Her speech on the Senate floor and subsequent vote giving Bush the power to invade Iraq showed us that she either bought the lies hook, line and sinker - or worse - knew they were lies and went along with it anyway.

Will she say the invasion and destabilization of the area was a contributing factor to what we're seeing now? Will she say it was wrong? Will she say Bushco is responsible?

Of course not. I expect Bernie to say it, but it won't be the popular response.

[onecaliberal]

1. Of course she will. It's her normal position. She tough you know.

[lewebley3]

80. Hillary is qualified to comment on Foreign policy:

Sanders has nothing: I don't trust him to keep America
safe

[Hepburn]

120. Yeah, Hillary did soooooo well on her vote for the IWR.

Care to tell us how that made things all better?

[lewebley3]

126. Bush made the decision to go to war not HIllary: When the Clinton's were in Charge

the had the use of force but they didn't chose to invade
Iraqi;

Hillary is not responsible for the Bush and the GOP

[azurnoir]

2. well considering James Woolsey was stumping for an expanding air strikes exponentially

last night on Al Jazeera America it just might be so

[Avalux]

3. So they pulled him out of mothballs....

The establishment wants more war so they can make more money. I feel like there's nothing we can do to stop it.

[hill2016]

4. bernie

is free to be the dove here and talk about negotiations and talks with ISIS.

watch how quickly he gets labelled as an appeaser.

[retrowire]

6. I'm saying it

Bernie needs to have a plan, with details, fast.

[redwitch]

8. Bernie is not going to talk about negotiating with Isis.

WTF?

[Hortensis]

35. Exactly. Bernie "appease" ISIS? WTF! :)

[ConservativeDemocrat]

79. If he doesn't watch the DU-Bernie group explode

Judging by the most some of the most upvoted posts on the DU today.

They may not be representative of most Bernie supporters, much less representative of Democrats, but the appeasers and negative-nationalists are out in force today. They blame America the way teabaggers blame Obama: more or less for everything.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Hortensis]

100. Thanks for the heads-up on what's happening, ConDem.

I miss a lot of this, and it's really helpful. The very thought of trying to appease an apocalyptic cult like ISIS is funny, though.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

122. More Clinton campaign rubbish

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. What planet are you on?

[bahrbearian]

28. the Appeaser voted for IWR

[daleanime]

40. Peace bad.....

Blood good!

The 'Other' must die!



Someone write me out of this bad Outer Limits script.

Who hears that 148 or so people have died and goes now how can I make political hay out this?

[emulatorloo]

44. Bernie is not a 'dove', so your premise is incorrect.

[Android3.14]

53. That is a stupid response

[mymomwasright]

63. It's about forcing others (Saudis, Turks, Iraqis, Lebanese, Jordan) to carry majority of the load!

We should do the support role! It's their area, not ours!

[winter is coming]

65. Wait... you mean people who actually live in the region, who might

understand the area far better than we do and have a better chance of working together to address a common menace, are capable of solving problems without being micromanaged by US? Who'd a thunk it?

[stillwaiting]

68. He'll only be seen that way by really sick people.

Unfortunately, we have our fair share of sick people in this country.

[AgingAmerican]

73. War! War! War!

War! War! War!

[Jack Rabbit]

103. That is utterly ridiculous

He may talk about a need to coordinate efforts against ISIS without putting American combat troops or "advisers" (which has meant the same thing since Vietnam) in the Middle East. Of course, that might mean negotiating with Assad rather than trying to overthrow him, but Assad is clearly not ISIS.

Of course, I will watch Hillary's staff attempt to label him an appeaser because he doesn't want Americans in harm's way. Not so much because they think the way to make the woman president is to dress her up as John Wayne but because their corporate paymasters want to turn this into another opportunity to seize Middle Eastern oil. We're going to do this until we get it right, I suppose. Perhaps the oil companies lean Republican, but Legs Dimon and Pretty Boy Lloyd still want to finance a war.

If Hillary calls for direct military involvement in the Middle East, it will be as if Dick Cheney's voice is coming out of her head. That's no way to get her on my good side, and I won't be the only one.

[retrowire]

5. yep...

and it will work in her favor. and the media will tout her as the solution to Isis because war = profit and we will continue this endless war.

yaaaaaaaay....

[Avalux]

7. Exactly right.

Our society is built on the war machine, and the endless profits for the fat cats associated with it.

[daleanime]

41. Too true....

[BootinUp]

9. Hillary will show leadership. I expect

she will still advocate for a no-fly zone.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

10. Depends on which way the wind is blowing

[pinebox]

18. A no fly zone is leadership? ISIS has NO PLANES! lol

Ya. that's leadership alright lol
ISIS has no airplanes lol

[winter is coming]

21. No, no, no!

We're going to put them in a zone with no trouser flies! No one can attack while doing the pee pee dance!

[pinebox]

22. lol

[840high]

107. haha - lol

[Hepburn]

121. LMBO!

[AgingAmerican]

75. That was my first thought too

When you have a hardon for war, details don't matter.

[Comrade Grumpy]

19. I want to hear her explain how a no-fly zone works with the Russians there.

I'd also be very curious to hear how she justifies imposing military force on a sovereign state.

We are not at war with Syria. There is no UN resolution authorizing force.

[pinebox]

20. I want to hear how it works as ISIS has no planes lol

[Fuddnik]

62. I think they bought all the surplus drones at the Radio Shack liquidation sale.

And they have all of Saddam Husseins leftover drones. The ones that can cross the Atlantic.

[upaloopa]

34. I want to hear how ignoring the world stage and hiding under a shell protects our national interests

Last edited Sat Nov 14, 2015, 03:05 PM - Edit history (1)

[winter is coming]

37. Those are our only two options? News to me. n/t

[AgingAmerican]

82. The Hill people are obviously gearing up for justifying more War! War! War!

They seem to believe a rudderless Bush-like response is what American wants.

[floriduck]

111. Since Saudi Arabia has the

4th largest military, behind the USA, China and Russia, AND since they are in the neighborhood, we should be putting far more pressure on them to clean up their own part of the world. The USA is not responsible for being the world's police. And since the original 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, we should have pressured them day one instead of hustling their princes out of our country and back to their country (classic Bush move).

[askew]

25. Well, there is a first time for everything.

Hillary's never led on any issue so I guess might as well start now.

Of course, with her record of poor foreign policy judgment I expect her to try to lead us in the wrong direction.

[BootinUp]

45. You have the minority view. nt

[AgingAmerican]

74. No fly zone where?

Isis doesn't have an Airforce. Is she channeling Bush or something?

[sufrommich]

11. I'd be willing to bet there won't be any doves

on the stage tonight,including Bernie.

[BootinUp]

12. Probably right. nt

[Dem2]

15. Sucks

Because basically the timing is such that they will have to act macho. Terrorists win. Just as many people die from gun violence every other day in the US - you don't see the right calling for even reasonable gun control measures.

[oasis]

24. If there are any imposters on national defense, they will be uncovered.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. Probably. Many people are scared/angry and looking for some comfort.

[UglyGreed]

13. I really hope that

Bernie does not resort to pandering for more war and involvement but we all know here in the US we seem to love war and root it on from the comfort of our homes. IMO Fifteen years of war has not helped much at all. I don't know what the answer is but this approach is like swatting flies in a manure factory.

[winter is coming]

17. ^^ This.

I said this in a different thread, but I think it bears repeating: "Hulk SMASH!" is shitty foreign policy, and that sort of thinking led to where we are today.

[UglyGreed]

89. Glad I'm not alone

[Jack Rabbit]

117. You're not

[UglyGreed]

118. good there is

safety in numbers

[DCBob]

14. Bernie better also.

It's what most American's are expecting given the circumstances.

[frylock]

71. Not this American.

[AgingAmerican]

85. No, he better not

'Hawk Beaks' are what started this mess. America is sick of perpetual war. Let the locals deal with it. Everything we touch in the Mid East turns to shit.

[DCBob]

87. A peacemonger approach to this is not going to work.

Politically or practically.

[AgingAmerican]

90. Black and white thinking like yours

Is what got us there in the first place. Try option C. Let the locals fight it out. When we become directly involved, it always goes to shit.

So you guys expect Hillary to turn warmonger on this one? Be careful what you wish for.

[DCBob]

91. I have never been a black or white thinker.

Just for the record I was firmly against going to war with Iraq. I attended three anti-Iraq war protests here in DC including a massive one the weekend before the attacks started which the media mostly ignored.

This is different.. these maniacs are out of control and need to taken out one way or the other... and that doesn't mean a full blown war and occupation. There are better more intelligent ways to get it done.

[AgingAmerican]

92. The maniacs are out of control because we keep starting wars there

Do the math.

War! War! War! War! War! War! War! is the new Hillary cry!

Same as the old war.

[DCBob]

93. But now we have to deal with maniacs killing hundreds of innocent people and threatening more.

Playing the blame game doesn't solve the problem.

[AgingAmerican]

95. We aren't the worlds savior police

Sorry, we just fuck everything up and make it worse. It's time for us to find a new hobby. Not spending trillions on another pointless war that we lose in the end.

[DCBob]

96. I suspect France will lead this effort and we will join them in a coalition.

Along with many other nations.

[AgingAmerican]

97. That's how it usually starts

Then it ends 10 or 15 years later in failure after we waste a few more trillion.

[Hepburn]

123. Yeah, invading Iraq worked so well.

[DCBob]

125. I doubt the response is going to be anything like Iraq.

[oasis]

23. If "hawk" is short for, "strong on national defense", Hillary

would proudly accept that tag, and with it, the presidency.

[Wilms]

26. Given the history of the neo-con "hawks"...

I'd say it's short for "unwise".

[oasis]

31. I'm more than willing to let the voters be the judge of that. (eom)

[upaloopa]

32. Well I'm glad we won't be putting our national security in your hands or anyone who thinks like you

[askew]

27. It's not. It means that her knee jerk reaction to every foreign policy crisis is the military not

diplomacy. She was wrong on Iraq War. She was wrong on wanting boots on the ground in Libya. She was wrong on arming Syrians. She was wrong in 2008 on not negotiating with Iran without pre-conditions. She was wrong in 2008 on flying into Pakistan to get OBL without notifying Pakistan.

Obama won in 2008 by showing that she had poor foreign policy judgment and that mattered more than how many years someone spent in DC. O'Malley and Sanders should be studying that playbook right now.

[Hortensis]

36. Nonsense. History is real, not something people can just make up.

[askew]

42. History is real and it shows that Hillary is wrong on foreign policy too often to make a good

president. Judgment matters.

Hillary was wrong on:
Iraq War
More involvement in Libya
Arming Syrians
No-Fly Zone in Syria
Plan Colombia
Honduras Coup
Turning our back on Central Amerian child refugees

At that is just off the top of my head.

[oasis]

47. It'll be Hillary's night, tonight, let's face it.

Her foreign policy stature will give her a distinct advantage over her opponents even before the first word is spoken. Hill's confidence in her mastery of issues concerning foreign policy will carry her the rest of the way

Since the debate will be under the national spotlight, I hope all three will Democrats do well.

[askew]

50. The problem is she doesn't have a mastery of FP issues. That's just the talking points from the

media. Reminds me of the McCain vs. Obama foreign policy debate. All the pre-debate spin from media was McCain would kill Obama on foreign policy. Then, Obama came out and was considered the winner quite handedly by the public. The media tried to spin it as a win for McCain but the public wouldn't buy it.

Same thing happened in 2008. They gave every win to Hillary in the debates and public disagreed.

If Hillary goes out and acts like her true self tonight in pushing hawkish FP views, O'Malley and Sanders should push back on her poor FP judgment. If they don't, it is a wasted opportunity and a chance to change up the whole election. This is where she is most out of step with the Dem base and it was her undoing in 2008.

[Ed Suspicious]

59. Defense wins championships. Offense puts butts in the seats, sadly.

[winter is coming]

113. It also puts butts in wheelchairs and coffins.

And more money in the hands of the rich. And, far too often, sows the seeds of the next round of violence.

[AgingAmerican]

86. Right wing tripe

Everything the USA touches in the middle east turns to shit. No more American over reactions.

[Hepburn]

124. You forgot to add "...and WW III."

[daleanime]

29. Not popular with those who trade blood for money....

but it will resonate with the rest of us.

[upaloopa]

30. The debate will turn to foreign policy where Hillary will shine since she was Secretary of State

Nobody on that stage will have more knowledge of the situation than Hillary has.

You can recite your little discussion board tripe all day long but it will not solve this crisis. Only someone with insight into the workings of the problems can be effective and that is Hillary.

[winter is coming]

39. HIllary's got plenty of incite.

Insight, not so much. She's pretty quick to opt for "military" solutions that don't actually solve anything.

[earthside]

61. A resumé does not wisdom make.

Hillary will undoubtedly be completely wrong about what to do in reaction to Paris.

It is in her political goal to prove she can be as tough as a man Commander-in-Chief.

What we need is leadership, not belligerence ... the U.S. needs to get out of the Middle East. Period.

[oasis]

112. "prove she can be tough as a man".

Wow.

[earthside]

116. You can't trust her discretion or motivation.

What Margaret Thatcher Taught Hillary Clinton
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-04-08/what-margaret-thatcher-taught-hillary-clinton


Hillary’s Hawkish War Stance Leaves Voters Wondering If Change Will Ever Come
http://www.mintpressnews.com/hillary-clinton-hawkish-war-stance-leaves-voters-wondering-if-change-will-ever-come/204548/


What Hillary Clinton wants you to forget: Her disastrous record as a war hawk
http://www.salon.com/2015/09/10/what_hillary_clinton_wants_you_to_forget_her_disastrous_record_as_a_war_hawk/


Al Qaeda Leaders Agree with Clinton, McCain and Petraeus: U.S. Should Impose a No Fly Zone Over Syria
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/11/al-qaeda-leaders-agree-with-clinton-mccain-and-petraeus-u-s-should-impose-a-no-fly-zone-over-syria.html

[drray23]

33. you cant talk and negociate with ISIS

This does not mean you go out randomly bombing countries but it does mean you need to have a plan to address it.

Ignoring the situation by being against all military actions all the time is not in the best interest of the country. Even Bernie, if he is elected president will have to defend the country. Yes, I know ISIS is not yet here. However, I fear its just a matter of time.

Hillary will have the advantage because of her vast experience as a secretary of state.

[Dem2]

38. No

[Thinkingabout]

43. Sanders will be saying he is waiting for Saudi Arabia to finish taking care of the problem.

Having foreign experience is a plus, Clinton has the experience.

[restorefreedom]

48. if isis is to be defeated

the muslim and even secular countries that want a peaceful existence are going to have to step up. turkey, jordan, and saudi arabia, among others, have many resources that could be used to defeat isis. despite the fact that cheney started all of this, this is not our war anymore. it has grown beyond what we can do to fix what we broke. the best thing the u.s. can do is remove itself from this cluster and provide some aid but no military. our presence there only continues to poke the tiger.

[winter is coming]

51. ^^ This. We need to stop supplying the ME with weapons and targets. n/t

[restorefreedom]

52. yes, as well as a big time incentive. they hate us bad.

if we are out, their main selling point goes right down the toilet.

[Thinkingabout]

56. Have you heard something saying the US is immune to the attacks? We have already had attempts,

maybe I missed it somewhere.

[restorefreedom]

58. no one is immune

but the further we invest ourselves, the more we feed the beast. they feed on their hatred, largely of us.

[mymomwasright]

66. This ^^^

Exactly what motivates them! Exactly why America has vengeful Iraqi youth they will soon have to deal with. They will come because we took their blood from them. It's all tribal and they won't let it go. Point is, we need to stop feeding the beast! We create our monsters daily.

[restorefreedom]

69. and the slaying of the monsters

makes many here very rich. makes me want to

[riderinthestorm]

106. Agreed 100%. The winning candidate will also propose cutting off the funding

they'll pledge to do what it takes to find and destroy the money chain that's funding ISIS.

It's an inconvenient truth that it's our "allies" (cough) like the Saudis and the other Gulf States but it's long past time to break off this relationship, expose it to the disinfectant of sunshine and be done with it..

Whichever candidate says that will be the bravest one of the bunch and the one who truly is going to what needs doing to stop ISIS.

[restorefreedom]

110. yup. too bad so many don't want to starve the beast

because fighting it is $$$$$o much better.....

[winter is coming]

114. +1,000,000.

Severing supply lines is a time-tested method of weakening your enemy. Go after their funding. Draw down on the bombings and drone attacks that kill innocents and aid ISIS' recruiting efforts.

[restorefreedom]

46. this paris attack is another domino that fell

after cheneys war for oil, which hillary voted for. no way that won't be discussed at length tonight. more u.s. intervention is not the answer. bernie knows it. martin knows it.

should be interesting debate

[LuvLoogie]

54. She will put on her Presidential mantle

which will be informed by her stint at State. I am sure she is being updated by several countries' government liasons including her Obama administration contacts in accordance with whatever security clearance she holds as a former SOS.

[antigop]

55. What Margaret Thatcher taught Hillary Clinton

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-04-08/what-margaret-thatcher-taught-hillary-clinton

[Avalux]

72. Reading that makes me want to hurl. n/t

[LuvLoogie]

60. It won't be a Hawk vs Dove debate.

It will be a discussion of the proper response in deference to French sovereignty and prerogative. There will be a discussion of whether the candidates support the Obama administration's course. Little talk of what they might do differently as dealing with an ongoing situation is tactical as opposed to strategic and, as such, needs to be flexible and adaptable with an eye toward established policy as a guiding principle.

[JaneyVee]

64. ISIS is a cancer and needs to be eliminated.

[winter is coming]

70. A ten word answer. Let's talk about the words after that.

Realistically, can it be eliminated?

How?

Who can accomplish that?

It may not be our fight to carry out, or lead, and it's probably not going to be a straightforward military solution. We've tried that before, with spectacularly poor results. It's time to start thinking and acting beyond ten-word soundbites.

[JaneyVee]

78. If we can eliminate Nazi's we can eliminate ISIS.

[winter is coming]

84. Um...

You do know there are Nazi groups still out there? Don't you? And that they're not fueled by the same cultural attitudes in re revenge that ISIS is?

I'm not saying the task is impossible, but simplistic approaches aren't getting it done.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. I expect her to accuse anyone who DOESN'T want to go full Rambo to be unqualified.

[zentrum]

76. You bet. That's exactly what she'll do.

With no historical mention of the hawks who enabled Bushco at all.

[Hepburn]

77. She will out ted-cruz Ted Cruz

I am expecting to gag on this.

[SoapBox]

81. Expect to see the WAR HAWK fly!

Ohhhh....it's already making me sick and I've not even heard her open her mouth yet.

[senz]

83. I think she'll try to finish off Bernie.

Right now her goal is the Primary, so I suspect she'll try to find wedge issues to align Democrats for herself and against Bernie.

But of course I could be wrong.

Bernie would do well to play on his greatest strength: his genuine, tried-and- true concern for the well-being of the American people. People hear this, and they're not used to hearing it by those who actually mean it.

[AgingAmerican]

94. I bet she sounds exactly like Bush/Cheney

War! War! War! War! War! War! War! War! War!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

88. Will she be wearing a cowboy hat and boots? Or, rely on tough comments like "Smoke 'em out!"?

[AgingAmerican]

98. Gotta fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here

Freedom is on the march! Freedom Fries!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

99. Erect bogeyman, wave flag, sound tough, send in the troops and cheerlead.

[AgingAmerican]

101. War! War! War!

It appears the marching orders have been handed down. Her supporters are all suddenly war hawks!

[azmom]

119. USA USA USA

[demwing]

102. I hope she does - it will be the popular play

but the wrong act

[cantbeserious]

104. It Is Increasingly Clear That HRC Must Withdraw From The 2016 Election For Her Role As A Neocon

eom

[karynnj]

105. I hope HRC will take the "grown up role" that will condemn the attack, but speak to the need

for an international response to end the situation that has led to the increase of terrorism. I wonder if she will mention the effort in Vienna - that the US/Russia and UN are leading that is attempting to get a Syrian ceasefire and a resolution to the civil war. Many of the people there - including French FM Fabius - stressed the importance of this to ultimately defeating Dash (ISIS/ISIL). HRC is well positioned to speak to someone on Obama's team to get the most current assessment of where they are.

In fact, a BIGGER effort - now that Iran and Saudi Arabia will sit in the same room (even if they then insult each other) might be to work to end the proxy wars and the Shia/Sunni fighting. Yes, I have read that this existed for generations, but we all know it was greatly inflamed by the Iraq War. You can't really end the chance of the random terror that occurred by increasing the bombing runs or sending massive numbers of Western troops into Iraq/Syria. That might even increase the amount of terrorism. Terrorism is in fact most common in asymmetrical situations.

What worries me is that I look at the NYT and they quote former GWB national security people or others that are associated with neo con think tanks. It also worries me that HRC has often been more in line with them than with Obama - whose second term foreign policy has often rejected the neo con path.

This is an interesting moment for her. If she really does not agree with Obama -- she must state her position. At least until this is forgotten, this will be a time where she really does have more experience than any of the Republicans or Democrats. If she opts to differ with Obama -- I am not sure whether that helps her or opens a path for Sanders or O'Malley. Me - the one I trust is Kerry.

[riderinthestorm]

108. I hope Sanders distinguishes himself from her by going after the funding

If he pledges to do what it takes to find and destroy the money chain that's funding ISIS, it will demonstrate whose really serious.

It's an inconvenient truth that it's our "allies" (cough) like the Saudis and the other Gulf States and it's long past time to break off this relationship, expose it to the disinfectant of sunshine and be done with it..

Whichever candidate says that will be the bravest one of the bunch and the one who truly is going to what needs doing to stop ISIS.

I'll be watching for that person.

Furthermore, I'll be watching for the person who says it's up to the countries in the region to take out ISIS. Our presence is only making things worse. We can provide support with materiale, meds etc but our boots on the ground would be disastrous.

[Lil Missy]

109. After bush the lesser, it's nice to have adults in charge.

[tishaLA]

115. the cynic in me says

the Clinton campaign is waiting for the results of a flash poll to determine how far they can safely position themselves from Pres Obama's terrorism policies without alienating "the Obama coalition." And I say that as someone who's not strongly pro- or anti-Hillary.