When you can't even afford a dinner with a candidate, it's unlikely your interests take top priority

[reformist2]

$33,000 a plate? The optics, as they say, are horrible.

If you go with Hillary, I guess you just have to hope & pray that the high-minded elite will do the right thing without your input, because us ordinary folk will never be eating at the same table as them. We may get a chance encounter with her on the campaign trail if we're lucky, but no more than a friendly hello, certainly no time to talk or to share our perspective directly. This is how these people end up totally disconnected from the people they represent. This is how people on top get out of touch.

[Thinkingabout]

1. When you can't continue to have your taxes raised, then the candidate proposing the increase

Probably does not have your best interest as a priority.

[azmom]

4. That explains you.

[JonLeibowitz]

6. If you are referring to the payroll tax increase to fund universal healthcare, I am for it

Since when are democrats against affordable healthcare? Consider the following New York Times article, published today: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/us/politics/many-say-high-deductibles-make-their-health-law-insurance-all-but-useless.html

But for many consumers, the sticker shock is coming not on the front end, when they purchase the plans, but on the back end when they get sick: sky-high deductibles that are leaving some newly insured feeling nearly as vulnerable as they were before they had coverage.

“The deductible, $3,000 a year, makes it impossible to actually go to the doctor,” said David R. Reines, 60, of Jefferson Township, N.J., a former hardware salesman with chronic knee pain. “We have insurance, but can’t afford to use it.”

Sanders' proposals involve a small payroll tax increase to fund medicare for all. Then the deductible goes to zero. When comparing plans it is important to consider total cost, not just tax cost. In this case, the payroll tax would have to increase $3000 for this family in order for it to actually be an increase overall in what they are spending.

This is all without mentioning that the article makes the case that the high cost of healthcare is preventing people form seeking and receiving care; leading to a sicker population.

I think it is rather clear that Sanders has the general population's interests at heart.

[Thinkingabout]

8. He has said he was going to tax the rich, he missed on this one, the rich has capital gains,

Dividends, interest, and royalties. This us not income, they don't have income tax like the typical worker so the low income people are taxes, not the rich. I do not agree on the tax.

[JonLeibowitz]

11. You didn't address any of the substance of my post w.r.t total cost vs tax cost

Also, please point out where he excluded raising the Long Term Capital Gains rate from his tax plan? You can raise taxes on the rich (for other programs) AND increase the payroll taxes slightly to fund medicare for all.

I should also mention that Bernie is for lifting the cap on taxable income. This would expose more earnings (W-2 income) to payroll tax from wealthy Americans.

[Thinkingabout]

12. Income tax is on income, as a worker who is compensated for the work they do.

Capital gains, dividends, interest and royalties are taxed differently. As for myself, I have gotten medical insurance through my employer and received a lower salary in order to provide for this benefit. I simply do not agree with placing more taxes on people who are struggling already.

[JonLeibowitz]

16. I am well aware of the US Tax code. You don't need to inform me of that every post

Bernie has proposed lift the cap on taxable income (this means taxing high, high wage earners more). Care to address that?

The vast majority of his financing plans involve taxing wealthy americans (yes, through raising LTCG tax rate). The only tax proposed on middle class americans is a modest payroll tax to fund healthcare. Which, if you read the article I mentioned is a substantial cost families have to pay anyway, but his approach has distinct advantages.

He also plans to tax the rich in order to make public colleges tuition free; that will greatly ease the burden on those families who are struggling.

Please do not ignore the points I am making and then try to "educate" me on how taxes work. I know darn well how they work.

[Thinkingabout]

20. Again, capital gains, interest, dividends and royalties are not wages.

[JonLeibowitz]

22. I Know! I know!

He also wants to start a speculation tax, and likely will raise Long Term Capital Gains taxes (which includes everything you just listed). He also wants to end corporate tax loopholes and corporate subsidies to help the middle class.

[Thinkingabout]

24. Then you know the 1% is not going to be paying the tax Sanders is proposing.

I am not for raising taxes on hard working people who are struggling already.

[JonLeibowitz]

25. Not that specific tax, no. They'll be paying their taxes for other programs

Also, kindly go back to my original post where I explain that a medicare-for-all proposal would replace healthcare costs that are real and being experienced by families.

[Thinkingabout]

27. Jt may come as a shock but taxing every thing is not a winning agenda.

[JonLeibowitz]

28. An unwillingness to engage on the high cost of healthcare and how Sanders plan fixes that?

Have a nice day.

[Live and Learn]

30. But you won't have to pay for health care or insurance so the tax will be cheaper.

Plus it will drive down health care costs. It really is a no brainer.

[Thinkingabout]

34. I get health insurance through my employer.

[Live and Learn]

104. Then they won't have to pay it and can pay you more.

Don't you think it is a bit selfish of people that have the good fortune to have 'free' health care to want to deny others health care?

[Thinkingabout]

112. I think it is also selfish to tax the working people to pay for others.

[Live and Learn]

113. That is not selfish that is humane. nt

[SusanCalvin]

36. So? Tax 'em at least as much as wages.

Even though I am fortunate enough to have some savings, I really resent all the categories that are taxed less than the sweat of one's brow.

[floriduck]

31. But the taxes collected

in Bernie's plan will let you have insurance at no additional cost. So you likely would have a higher net income. Try thinking in complete terms.

[Thinkingabout]

35. I have thought in complete terms, I still know how to think in complete terms.

[floriduck]

47. Then you have completely

figured out you have no valid complaint on taxes. I love a happy ending.

[Thinkingabout]

61. Taxing, taxing, taxing is not a winning agenda.

[Old Codger]

49. So post it

Show us the statement that says he is going to single out income taxes and let the rest ride..please

[SusanCalvin]

33. Well, I can currently afford it.

And I'd be happy to pay more for the right reasons. Assuming corporations and the 1% paid theirs.

[Thinkingabout]

53. In this case the corporations will not be paying more and it will not affect the 1% since they

Normally dont have wages or income. They have capital gains, dividends, interest and royalties.

[SusanCalvin]

54. So tax those at the rate, at least, of wages.

I'm quite sure Bernie has considered or would consider that.

Speaking for myself, I find taxing anything at a rate lower than that of the sweat of one's brow obscene.

[moobu2]

2. Well, work to help change the system

so candidates won't need so much money to run for office. Waiting on a saviour isn't going to solve anything. Tearing down the only candidate who could win and appoint left-leaning supreme court justices isn't going to solve anything either.

[reformist2]

14. I'm supporting the candidate who's not playing the big money game - Bernie!

[SusanCalvin]

37. I wouldn't call his behavior "passive." nt

[SusanCalvin]

57. Well, I might reply,

If you defined the "it" of which you speak. You assert his behavior is "passive." I disagee.

[SusanCalvin]

65. We'll cross the R money machine when we come to it.

Right now the opponent is Hillary.

Oh, and, semantics do matter, and you never stated your definition of "passive."

Oh, sorry, you did in last post. "All means legally possible." Oh no no no. We all know the law is sometimes a ass. And I choose to bet it's still possible to be ethical and win. It beats believing the alternative.

[SusanCalvin]

82. I find your tone quite condescending,

And I try not to spend time on boast and speculation. So I guess I really need to put down the tablet, watch the debate, and get some sleep so I can work.

You think I'm intelligent, meaning eventually I will come around, I guess? Thanks ever so.

[SusanCalvin]

96. I don't find it "disagreeable."

I find it amusing in a slightly annoying kind of way that I suspect would shortly become quite annoying. I'm happy at this juncture that I don't, as far as I know, have your acquaintance in real life.

As far as my stress level, you can know as much about mine as I can know about yours. We can only speculate.

[SusanCalvin]

98. Exactly.

We agree that I don't like you and you don't like me.

[SusanCalvin]

105. OK, I'll leave it at I don't like you,

since you do insist on continuing to talk down to me. You obviously feel that is justified. I don't.

And if *I* may offer *you* a bit of advice, it's generally not a winning tactic for getting people to listen to you.

Speaking of which, I will no longer be spending any time monitoring this "conversation." You may, of course, spend yours as you wish.

[Plucketeer]

26. LOL!....

"Well, work to help change the system" DOH! Which candidate has been vowing to do that all along? Sanders. Hillary's the one the $33K-a-plate dinner is for. Most the folks she'd CLAIM to represent, don't have a gross income of that much in a YEAR. Yeah - president of the people. Remember, Corporations are people, my friend. No one knows that ANY BETTER'N Hillary!

[MADem]

5. When Sanders starts holding his DNC fundraisers, will you say the same thing?

He'll be doing that real quick, doncha know:

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/bernie-sanders-2016-fundraising-dnc-215559

I'm sure Debbie Wasserman Schultz will be trotting him out real soon, to press the flesh in exclusive, high-end fundraisers. And he'll do it, and take the money and the help he gets, and send the cash he raises to the DNC to be distributed downticket.

That's ALL Clinton is doing. Is it only OK if you're Bernie?

[JoePhilly]

10. That's a splash of cold water on this OP.

[green917]

29. you can make this supposition

When senator sanders announces a $33,000 a plate fund raiser. Until then, you can't compare oranges and tractors and say, "see your guy's gonna do it too!"

[SusanCalvin]

38. Bingo. nt

[JoePhilly]

41. Yea, why would we expect Sanders to help other Dems, right??

[SusanCalvin]

45. Oh Lord.

I'm a yellow dog dem, but I took to sending the DNC nastygrams instead of money long ago. I will help other dems by sending *individual* dems money.

[JoePhilly]

46. Is that what Bernie is doing?

[SusanCalvin]

48. Well, I would frankly prefer

That he not support the DNC by $10k plus fundraisers. Especially since they don't support him (see debate schedule) but are happy to use *him* for their appeals. *I* don't support the DNC as it is currently governed. Fire DWS, I might consider rethinking.

And before anyone might say I am not a true dem, is she elected? I do not think so.

[green917]

103. so, one has to hold

$33,000 a plate fund raisers to help other democrats? And people wonder why the electorate is apathetic!

[JoePhilly]

107. If it helps our candidates raise money ... sure.

btw ... hasn't Sanders also committed to raising money for the DNC in the same manner?

[UglyGreed]

43. no reply huh?

I did not think so.

[MADem]

67. Who the heck are you talking to? You're addressing the person who ASKED the question.

If you are going to snark, at least AIM first....

[UglyGreed]

100. .

[green917]

102. sorry for the late reply but. ..

Some of us have to work for a living. I'm not chained to my pc. To your point, maybe he will and maybe he won't but we don't know what the scope and breadth of those events are going to be yet and i think to automatically assume that he's going to do exactly what senator clinton is doing at her events when everything about their 2 campaigns has differed to date is pedantic and doesn't show senator sanders the respect he deserves.

[UglyGreed]

110. I must of just missed you since

my comment was just minutes after your post.... I was just bouncing off your comment to get under MADem's skin. We had it out in another thread, sorry to involve you and I hope you did not work too hard.

[green917]

114. no worries

I'm not often accused of working too hard but, then again, i love what i do so it's pretty easy even if it is busy! thanks for the sentiment!

[UglyGreed]

115. No problem

[MADem]

66. Of course he's going to do it--he didn't sign a pact with Debbie Wasserman Shultz to frontline

a couple of church spaghetti suppers.

He'll be doing BIG, PRIVATE EVENTS, and the distribution of money will be the same as the Clinton events. He may not be able to command as much per plate as she does, because he's just not as popular, but this isn't going to be "ten bucks at the door" territory.

The charge will be many thousands. Count on it. As much as they can get with him headlining. If it's not as much, that's because he's not as much of a draw, not because of any high-minded nonsensical "oranges and tractors" argument. He'll go for as much as he can get--otherwise, why bother?


The point is to RAISE MONEY-not campaign, RAISE MONEY.

[SusanCalvin]

75. If he has to, he has to.

At least I believe he will try to get rid of it.

[MADem]

78. Well, he signed a formal pact with Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

These deals are a two-way street. To get love, you gotta give love.

That's just how it works.

The move, which comes more than two months after Hillary Clinton's campaign signed such an agreement in August, will allow Sanders' team to raise up to $33,400 for the committee as well as $2,700 for the campaign from individual donors at events.



Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/bernie-sanders-2016-fundraising-dnc-215559#ixzz3rWIUjtwZ

Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaign will jointly raise money with the Democratic National Committee going forward, a DNC official told The Hill on Thursday.


The Sanders campaign and the national party have reached an agreement to coordinate their fundraising efforts, enabling the two to solicit checks together in an effort that could boost the DNC’s war chest for the general election.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/259298-sanders-dnc-strike-fundraising-deal

I don't think any of our candidates LIKE doing this shit--they know they have to, though, because if you don't support the party, you get crushed by the opposition, and then we can't grow the brand.

If we get enough people elected to have the votes to make changes to election law, maybe we can get rid of the corrosive influence of Rich People's Money.

But now's just not the time to die on that hill.

[SusanCalvin]

83. Based on the information I currently possess, I trust Bernie's judgment. nt

[pennylane100]

7. I, along with my spouse once paid $100 each to meet and greet with Howard Dean,

There was Hors d'oeuvres and wine and it was held in the garden of Zoe Lofgren, one of my favorite progressive politicians. Not quite in the same league as Hillary's dinner, but it was a good fit for my budget.

Unfortunately, there was a fairly long wait for Howard to address us, and I had passed the time consuming way too much wine, on a very hot day. Not sure I remember much about his speech but it was a fun day for what I had hoped would be a successful cause.

[edgineered]

9. Is it fair to say successful politicians

have the same affect on those they meet and greet as do successful entertainers? Having not met any politicians on higher than a local level leaves me without a reference point, however, I've rubbed elbows with some musicians and band members. When they stop and talk with you, even briefly, its like you are the only thing that's on their mind - you leave feeling like you've connected in some way, as if during that brief time you had their complete attention and nothing else was on their mind. Being a realist though, you understand that is how they became popular in the first place. To watch them interact with person after person and witness the affect on others does not diminish the special feeling you are left with. Still being the realist tells you that it didn't matter to the entertainer that you are a friend of a friend, a guest, or a $30,000 contributor.

[reformist2]

15. Good point. I think good politicians are often good actors, to some degree.

[edgineered]

19. So now we know. The optics are terrible

The candidate is going to do whatever is on his/her political agenda. The will of the masses is more than one step removed from the bigger contributors. They are more than one step removed from the party's machinery. Up the ladder it goes. Everyone is played, we are the pawns.

[SusanCalvin]

39. Of course, and there's nothing wrong with that, in moderation.

Did you ever put on a happy face, or summon more energy than you thought you had? Well there you go.

[restorefreedom]

13. c.u MUST be overturned. nt

[SusanCalvin]

40. Essential. nt

[MADem]

68. Most people on our side agree--but it ain't gonna happen this election cycle.

Which is why Sanders has agreed to fundraise in conjunction with the DNC--to get some big money down-ticket.

[restorefreedom]

70. i think the masses are getting fed up

with store bought elections. the veil has been lifted and people see the ugly.

[SusanCalvin]

73. Well, if he has to I'll go along.

I don't like 3rd way or DWS, but I trust Bernie's judgment.

[SoapBox]

17. Well...

At least all us little people can eat cake...but it's probably going to be leftovers or day old.

The whole money thing with her is obscene.

[SusanCalvin]

42. She's not the only one, but yeah.... nt

[MisterP]

18. hey, corporate alliances, poll-massagers ("poll-masseurs"?), journalist-ropers, bused-in crowds,

backscratching, and paid Facebook Friends don't come cheap

[reformist2]

23. poll-masseurs, lol!

[840high]

32. "massagers" - lol love it

[JI7]

44. The point of it is not dinner but raising money

[SusanCalvin]

50. DUH!

In amounts per plate no regular people can afford.

[JI7]

51. that's the system we have

[SusanCalvin]

52. Let us try to change it, then. nt

[ConservativeDemocrat]

60. How do you propose to do that without raising money?

You have the floor.

Please, no fantasies about spontaneous groundswells, or sheeple throwing of their blinders, or anything silly like that.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[SusanCalvin]

63. Raising money in a different way,

and attracting workers/voters in a different way. And using the money you have more effectively/efficiently.

[JI7]

76. what different way ?

[SusanCalvin]

79. Coming pretty close to Hillary's numbers through small donations,

And using a smaller percentage on raising more (since a lot of it comes in by itself).

[SusanCalvin]

74. BTW, this was kind of an insulting post. That's why I said "DUH." nt

[KoKo]

55. It's there before our Democratic Eyes! Yet.....

it is denied. Because its all about "The MONEY/POWER!" Gotta get things done with Mega Money from the same folks who TRASHED the Middle Class and Decimated the Poor with Carrots and a Few Sweets that were gone in a moment when their Anti "The People" policies Kick In after their election.

But, on the Campaign Trail...it all sounds SOOO GOOD....how we are SUCKERED!

[pacalo]

58. Isn't that the unvarnished TRUTH!

[ronnykmarshall]

59. Oh dear ....

[Spitfire of ATJ]

62. She mixes with the commoners.....

If there's a news crew present.

[MADem]

69. These dinners--that Sanders will be doing, too--are not "mixing with the commoners" events.

They are "separating the wealthy from their cash" events. Not campaign events--fundraisers.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. That's why it's in a "ballroom".

[Hepburn]

81. The 1% needs a lot of elbow room.

[MADem]

87. I'll bet everyone gets a Grip and Grin pic.

And I'll bet the top tier contributors get a private audience.

[SusanCalvin]

111. I take a dim view of people to whom a grip and grin pic means so much.

I'm just not constitutionally capable of understanding it. Which is why I'll probably never have any real power, since my view undoubtedly puts me in the minority.

I have occasionally had opportunities for grip and grin, and I generally do not take them. One of the few times I did was an autographed pic (with me in it because that was the way it worked) that came with good tickets to a show I wanted to see. I gave it to a kid to whom it meant more than it did to me. (And I didn't take a dim view of him because he was, after all, a kid.)

[SusanCalvin]

72. This is a very interesting discussion.

I hadn't pictured Bernie doing this kind of stuff, I'll admit. Interesting to ruminate upon.

[MADem]

88. He probably is reluctant, but he'll get better at it the more he does it.

It's part of the job. He's going to have to learn to do it, or he won't prevail.

Big Money doesn't open their wallets for narrow policy diatribes. They want that personal touch, even if only for a moment.

[SusanCalvin]

89. Yeah.

Hoping for a change to the system where they can't buy that want.

[MADem]

90. We need to get a Congress full of our guys, who will vote that crap out!

Make it illegal to play the big money game; make it so that "money" is no longer "speech."

[SusanCalvin]

91. Exactly.

Money is not speech and corporations are not people. In a rational world.

[MADem]

93. It's kind of weird that we have to USE CU to get rid of CU, but that's what we have to do.

Get a bunch of that speech money, use it to put OUR people in, and then have OUR people pass laws against it.

Publicly funded elections are the way to go, I think.

[SusanCalvin]

94. "Publicly funded elections are the way to go, I think."

Absolutely.

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. Try it in real time: "These dinners--That Sanders HAS NOT DONE,--"

Yeah.

[MADem]

86. DUH--he signed the agreement LAST WEEK. LAST WEEK. And he has a debate (that he's flailing at)

this week.

Clinton signed her agreement with the DNC a couple of MONTHS ago, and she's only now doing the Big Money DNC fundraisers.

Yeah.

Try again.....

[Todays_Illusion]

80. Fund raising dinners, are meant to raise funds.

[okasha]

84. And down-ticket Democrats

in red states desperately need those funds.

It's hard to imagine why Democrats would object to raising money for Democrats, since candidates the will be supporting a year from now would, of course, benefit.

Republicans and Libertarians would object, to be sure.

[SusanCalvin]

92. I don't mind siphoning money from the rich.

Trouble is when they expect, and get, more money for it.

[glinda]

101. Bubububububut she just said "most" of her donors were small. Or was it individuals?

not

[99Forever]

108. In a non-corrupt nation with an actual democracy...

... this would be seen for what it is, bribery.

[SusanCalvin]

109. Absolutely.

All I expect for my $20/mo is for Bernie to be himself. But the rich are different from you and me.