Wooing Blacks, Sanders Reframes But Does Not Change Argument

[bravenak]

Always a key Democratic constituency, black voters will be even more important in the 2016 nominating contests because the early primary calendar is dominated by Southern states, including South Carolina and Georgia, where blacks form the backbone of the Democratic electorate. So if Clinton maintains her advantage among African-Americans — a voting group that helped then-Sen. Barack Obama defeat Clinton in 2008 — she will dominate the South on her way to the nomination.

But Sanders' swing through King's hometown of Atlanta also underscores his reluctance to tailor his appeal too much. In fact, he sought to position himself as one of King's political heirs, not by casting himself as a civil rights leader but by reminding voters of King's wider legacy.

"The truth is he did much more than just fight segregation and racism," Sanders told a Fox audience, most of them white and too young to remember King's life and death.



Read more: Neighbor Newspapers - Wooing blacks Sanders reframes but doesn t change argument

http://neighbornewspapers.com/view/full_story/26973169/article-Wooing-blacks--Sanders-reframes--but-doesn-t-change-argument-?mobile_view=false

[NurseJackie]

1. There's an adage, I think ... but I can't recall

... the exact wording.

[bravenak]

2. You can pm it to me.

[KittyWampus]

146. one trick pony? can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Will get hidden for using cliches with animals?

Why are there so many geese flying over my house this year headed west?

[bravenak]

148. Lipstick cliches can get one a hide these days.

[mwrguy]

3. I'm picturing Sanders

Going "woooo!"

[bravenak]

4. !

[Crystalite]

5. Consistency, so much better than pandering...

His sincerity demands it, consistency = honesty and integrity.

His message is, I'm sure, modified somewhat to suit his audience but he sticks to the core message and that make it stronger.

I'm very proud that he reminds us of the civil rights heroes and martyrs who live in the works of modern day champions.

Sanders is one of these champions, a national treasure.

[bravenak]

6. He does not remind most blacks of their civil rights heros and martyrs.

Many feel insulted. Me in particular. This stuff changed me from pro Bernie to no Bernie.

[Crystalite]

8. Please refrain from speaking for "most blacks".

You might feel insulted. That's you and that's just fine.

But everyone is an individual and Bravenak does not speak for "most blacks" any more than any other individual speaks for other entire demographics.

Sorry to lose you as a supporter of Senator Sanders.

[bravenak]

10. I will speak for my group as I please.

Please refrain from telling me what to do. Most blacks are voting for HILLARY.
This constant paternalising and telling us we don't know our own demographic is a big portion of why he lost me.

[Crystalite]

11. "Paternalising" is what people do when they profess to speak for entire groups.

We see this broadbrushing stereotyping all the time, but people are really individuals.

Saying "most blacks" do this or do that is, frankly, dismissive of them at best and just a little bit racist at worst.

You do what you want to, but I'm not going to agree that "most blacks" or "most Asians" or "most Jews" do anything in particular.

I just wasn't raised that way.

[bravenak]

12. No. I will get you the defintion.

Telling me what I am allowed to say about my demographic is an example.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternalism

Most blacks are voting for hillary. We are. It is true. Most do not place other people in as our civil rights leaders of the black liberation movement. That is just fact. Others telling US that he is one of OUR civil rights champions takes away our agency in deciding that for ourselves. Paternalism. Regardless of what you think, there are millions of US in line ahead of him as our martyrs and heroes. He has never been considered one of OUR heroes before, like MLK, Medgar Evers, MalcolmX, etc. . I have never seen him listed and it is insulting to tell me that that is what he is to US. Maybe to you, but I know MANY BLACKS LIKE MYSELF, and none have mentioned him during black history month. Or in discussing heroes. Your turn.

[Cha]

16. John Lewis.. not bernie sanders..

Clinton showcases strength with black voters in South Carolina

Nowhere is the demographic gap between the two leading Democratic presidential candidates more visible and more extreme than in South Carolina, where both are heading Friday for a jam-packed weekend of events aimed at appealing to African-Americans, anchored by a forum Friday night sponsored by the South Carolina Democratic Party and MSNBC.

The state plays a key role in the nominating process as the first contest in the South, as well as the first contest to feature a large number of African-American voters – the most steadfast Democratic Party constituency.

Front-runner Hillary Clinton is currently swamping challenger Bernie Sanders in South Carolina, 71% to 15%, thanks to her large advantage among nonwhite voters, according to a new poll from Winthrop University, which will host Friday’s forum. Among black voters, who make up a majority of the Democratic primary electorate in South Carolina, Clinton’s support climbs to 80%, while Sanders’ falls to just 8%, with 10% undecided.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/clinton-showcases-strength-black-votes-south-carolina

Thank you, Brave~

[sheshe2]

131. Who is 'WE'?

[Crystalite]

132. Myself, my family, my political friends... Definition:

"US" does not necessarily connote more than oneself and one other:

"US"
pronoun
pronoun: us

1.
used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition.
"let us know"

By no means did I intend to imply that "us" meant any more than that:

I wouldn't profess to speak for people I haven't met, for 80% of any national group.

That's not even possible. But I CAN speak for us, my immediate circle, about being inspired and reminded of MLK and others.

[bravenak]

137. Good for you. That has nothing to do with black voters.

I'm sure I know more of them than you do, personally since each of my grandmas had ten kids. I have hundreds of black relatives to poll, then my husbands family, then my neighbors, then call down south to check them out. Not a Bernie voter in the bunch. I was the only one. But these TACTICS grossed me out so much that I despise the idea of voting for Bernie. I just turned two kids, one 18, one 19 from Bernie to Hillary while 'y'all was du-ing.

[Crystalite]

142. "I just turned two kids, one 18, one 19 from Bernie to Hillary while 'y'all was du-ing"

Alrighty then.

I can't imagine what you might have said to change their minds, but I do suspect that once they hear from from out candidate that they might come to a different conclusion, or not.

As to whom knows more black voters-- well that just seems like like a pointless exercise.

Not interested.

[bravenak]

143. Why would they? They will never hear from bernie.

[darkangel218]

151. "They will never hear from Bernie"

Umm and how are you going to accomplish that?

[99Forever]

27. Exactly.

This one seems to think that somehow that very basic truth doesn't apply.

It does, and always will.

[msanthrope]

30. Who is "this one?" nt

[99Forever]

33. Obvious is obvious.

[msanthrope]

37. I had hoped you would show the courage of your convictions. Please, tell us

which DUer you are referring to as "This one."

[99Forever]

39. Run along now.

Your bait is lame.

[msanthrope]

43. Again, I had hoped you would clearly state who you are calling "This one."

Since I have nearly a decade in experience more on this board than you, I am going to suggest to you that if comity is not your goal, then at least demonstrate your principles.

It's interesting.....I lost respect for Will Pitt not because he called the President a POSUCS, but because when challenged, the lamest of sentence diagrams and, eventual self-deletion became the explanation. Since he had survived the jury hide, there was no reason not to proudly stand behind his words and defend them.

Here, there is no reason for you to be coy. Stand behind your words and tell us all what you mean.

[99Forever]

48. I care fuckall...

.. what you "hoped for." (Just in case you didn't get that)

Oh and that's where I stopped reading your tripe.

[TSIAS]

112. Isn't this what you guys do?

Over at the Cave you figure out ways to get opponents to violate TOS, then alert in order to silence them?

[99Forever]

118. Yep, that's the plan.

It fits them well.

[msanthrope]

130. I am not a participate at Conservative Cave. nt

[beam me up scottie]

45. Results of your jury service:

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
On Sat Nov 28, 2015, 07:53 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Exactly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=855182

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"This one" was racially offensive when Senator John McCain said it to Senator Barack Obama in the debates. The phrase is being used here deliberately to provoke racial tension and divide. Please hide this especially if you are a Bernie Sanders supporter. Let me explain... the vast majority of Bernie Sanders supporters are not racist and would not provoke racial tensions, and yet there seems to be a cadre of "supporters" on this site who cannot refrain from using coded racial language. Other examples of coded racial language used recently include the term "race-nagging" and "Stockholm Syndrome." Ask yourselves if this kind of racially divisive language, left to stand, helps the Sander's campaign. It doesn't.... which does make you wonder about the motives of the person posting it.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Nov 28, 2015, 08:01 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Saying "this one" in this instance is racially offensive is, Bullshit!
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is speaking the truth. This is alert stalking.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What? "this one" is clearly referring to "this poster", I've used the same phrase many times. Agree to disagree instead of trying to censor people who support another candidate.

[1StrongBlackMan]

55. This has me puzzled??? How else would one describe it when 80% ...

of a group do/express a common sentiment?

I think the term "most" adequately captures it.

[Crystalite]

68. Polls show that more than 20% have no opinion or have never heard of Bernie Sanders.

So I think it's fair to say that the original statement with which I expressed doubt,

He does not remind most blacks of their civil rights heros and martyrs.

..can't be backed up in any way.

The truth is that until more of all of us find out who a candidate is, such a broad claim is unsupportable.

Ethnocentrism is universal: each of us is preconditioned to feel that others see the world through our eyes and that our individual or group POV is the more correct or dominant one.

Take care, 1SBM.

Below, not the most current data but the one I was able to find that makes the point, people can't form an opinion about people that they've never heard of, far less 80% of a demographic:

[okasha]

108. The "people don't know who Bernie is yet" canard

is no longer credible. 80% of African Americans seem to know he's the candidate they're not going to vote for. I think bravenak and 1Strong have it nailed.

[okasha]

120. I think she's pretty clear

both about who she once supported and who she now supports. Thefe seems to be some weird assumption here that a genuine Sanders supporter would/could never actually come to prefer another candidate. The semi-religious cult that Sanders has attracted sees such a change as heresy and acts according. It's an absurd response.

[JonLeibowitz]

121. No assumptions -- she has directly said in PMs that she is only pretending to support Clinton.

[okasha]

123. All I can say is,

may God have mercy on your soul when she sees this.

[JonLeibowitz]

124. Not PMs to me, i am not breaking confidence. This has been well known on DU for some time

[bravenak]

134. Why are you so bothered by my vote?

Who cares what that pm from over a month ago said. My vote counts just as much as yours. Really, I wish people would get over me. Day after day, here you are to tell folks that I really don't support Hillary. Some advice? Worry about who you support and get me off of your mind. It's getting weird.
Some people have things twisted and think one must be in romantic love to support a candidate. Ya don't.
If one think it makes one look awesome to follow one lady around telling folks this 'secret' that EVERYBODY KNOWS, fine. But it is getting very weird. Can you stop following me?

[George II]

155. You've been a member of DU for a fucking MONTH! How can you possibly know that....

..."this has been well known on DU for some time"???

[bravenak]

135. I never said pretending. Get it straight. I said 'support'.

[Cha]

152. You have it wrong.. bravenak isn't the one who "lies". that's an awful thing to say.

[okasha]

119. The "people don't know who Bernie is yet" canard

is no longer credible. 80% of African Americans seem to know he's the candidate they're not going to vote for. I think bravenak and 1Strong have it nailed.

[lunamagica]

62. Then why don't you follow your own advice. Speak for yourself

"I'm very proud that he reminds us of the civil rights heroes and martyrs who live in the works of modern day champions."

That should be changed to :

"I'm very proud that he reminds me of the civil rights heroes and martyrs who live in the works of modern day champions."

Otherwise, you are accusing Bravenak of doing something which you are guilty of.

[Crystalite]

69. Interesting point.

us

pronoun: us

1. used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition.
"let us know"

True that it would have been better to narrow the "us" by saying "many of us" or similar.

However, "us" does not instantly imply "everyone"; "us" can imply a family, a community, or any other group absent a qualifier.

My use of "us" is entirely different from saying, for example, "most Hispanics like Whole Foods", especially if it can be shown that a great many Hispanics have never heard of Whole Foods.

In any event, it never serves a discussion well when an individual professes to know what an entire demographic feels absent reliable data and, in this event, the reliable data that shows that significant numbers have never heard of Sanders so such statements are just without merit.

[libdem4life]

67. So when Hillary uses an ex-president to campaign

For her, is that the same...her hero. Is your issue with heroes dead or a different race.

(She's even helped Bill expunge...flip ... some of his political sins.) FDR would seem a better hero,.

I don't remember anyone calling MLK slick Marty, Bill is no MLK, to be sure.

Bernie had been taken to task for daring to use MLK's name or image. Whose name now should he be using to be PC enough? Dead or alive. Just curious.

[bravenak]

75. He can use his own name.nt

[libdem4life]

92. I see, so being alive is the flaw about Bernie speaking

of his heroes. And because Bernie and I are white, we can't admire and honor a black hero?? I watched in tears on B and W television.

That's just messed up. IMO.

Ever hear of Cesar Chavez. He's another of my all time heroes, but I'm not Hispanic...and he's dead .

[bravenak]

95. People are starting to try to say that Bernie is somewhere near Dr. King and the heir to his legacy.

No. Not cool. People are doing daily seances to tell us that Dr. King would endorse Bernie. No. He did not endorse. People are changing history and appropriating black leaders and culture in order to 'help' their candidate. Not cool.
I plan on watching this very intently. It is so bizzare how they argue down black folks on black history and culture, things that those black people have studied their entire lives. And so angry at us! How dare we state the obvious! That we find it distasteful and plainly horrifying. If we say so, we are just uneducated, don't speak for all blacks, uninformed, mean, trouble makers, rabble rousers, etc..

I predict many studies on this campaign.

[libdem4life]

103. Oh, haven't heard that but wish you well with your

search. Making decisions based on what other people say can be a bit iffy.

Peace.

[Recursion]

138. That's what's so irritating to me: King didn't endorse candidates *when he was alive*

Very deliberately. But somehow now we're supposed to think he would?

[bravenak]

139. Yeah, I think people forget that we can read too.

They just think Bernie is so awesome that MLK would have changed his mind just for Bernie. Naw.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. Didn't you say Bernie's supporters did that?

[bravenak]

76. You seem very interested

[cherokeeprogressive]

93. Not really...

I just like watching you flail, while you pretend you didn't say things you said.

[bravenak]

96. Meh. Bernie still isn't winning.

No matter how much you watch me flail, it will not get him even one extra vote. Cya!

[Skidmore]

21. Consistency can also mean that one is so

entrenched that they cannot see the vista. It iw not always a good thing to lack the capacity to incorporate other worldviews and let those viewpoints inform and change your own. To me, this is a weakness, not a strength.

[workinclasszero]

51. Consistency AKA tone deafness

Bernie just don't get it on some issues.

[George II]

66. The civil right struggle of today is nothing like the civil rights struggle of the '60s, yet....

...Sanders insists on reminding us of what he did back in the '60s (which wasn't all that much in the first place)

Elsewhere here, many time over the last month or two we've seen people talk about his so-called "solid civil rights record" for decades, but very very little about what he did specifically.

If he was so committed to the civil rights movement when in college, one wonders why he left a city that was rife with racism and racial injustice to move to Vermont, a state that is roughly 96% white, in the early 1970s.

He's not the civil rights icon that his supporters would like us to believe he is.

[ucrdem]

72. Exactly.

I was taken to task for mentioning that the Sanders campaign frequently claims that he marched with King, when in fact he says in a recent video that he was simply a spectator "way way back there" on the Mall, but here it is again in a video posted just yesterday:



At this point I give no credence to any MLK Jr. claims whatsoever.

[Comrade Grumpy]

80. The shameless disruptor reemerges. n/t

[George II]

125. Just the facts. You seem to relish flinging insults at others, don't you?

[Cha]

153. I've noticed that skater on the thin ice.

[libdem4life]

110. Insignificant. .. I see. We all know where Hillary was, right?!!

Goldwater comes to mind. There is value in consistency'. Just curious, what has Hillary done for AAs? Specifically.

[BootinUp]

129. Just a guess, but Bernie probably had different ideas about how to do things, ya think?

Different from other leaders at the time that is. And he still does to this day.

[okasha]

105. Seeking out a photo op

with MLK's homophobic, bigoted daughter is pandering in the most obvious way. Shameful.

[JonLeibowitz]

113. If that is your opinion

You had better hope that no pictures emerge from this gathering: http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/11/hillary_clinton_coming_to_alab.html

[okasha]

122. I don't think Hillary determined who the other speakers would be.

Neither is she pretending to be MLK's modern counterpart or hijacking his legacy.

[SunSeeker]

7. "The truth is he did much more than just fight segregation and racism," Sanders told a Fox audience

That line makes it sound like Bernie thinks MLK's fight against racism and segregation was "just" this little thing MLK did on the side...that the few statements MLK made on socialism were the thing that was "so much more." I realize Bernie was tailoring his message to his audience, but that line really can come off wrong on so many levels.

[bravenak]

9. To me too.

Like it was not as important as what Bernie wants. Just fighting for racial eauality, no big thing.

[polly7]

17. So, it's only whites who care about economic issues?

Should talk about racial issues exclude economics?

I think this wise man would prove your theory wrong:

Everything Americans Think They Know About Drugs Is Wrong: A Scientist Explodes the Myths

Columbia University scientist Dr. Carl Hart combines research and anecdotes from his life to explain how false assumptions have created a disastrous drug policy.

By Kristen Gwynne / AlterNet June 13, 2013

What many Americans, including many scientists, think they know about drugs is turning out to be totally wrong. For decades, drug war propaganda has brainwashed Americans into blaming drugs for problems ranging from crime to economic deprivation. In his new book High Price: A Neuroscientist's Journey of Self-Discovery That Challenges Everything You Know About Drugs and Society, Dr. Carl Hart blows apart the most common myths about drugs and their impact on society, drawing in part on his personal experience growing up in an impoverished Miami neighborhood. Dr. Hart has used marijuana and cocaine, carried guns, sold drugs, and participated in other petty crime, like shoplifting. A combination of what he calls choice and chance brought him to the Air Force and college, and finally made him the first black, tenured professor of sciences at Columbia University.

Kristen Gynne: What are some of the false conclusions about drugs you are challenging?:

KG:You talk about how people are always blaming problems on drugs, when those issues really spring from the stress of poverty. What are some examples?:

KG:What kinds of environmental factors matter?

CH: ..... If you have competing reinforcers or alternatives, like the ability to earn income, learn a skill, or receive some respect based on your performance in some sort of way, those things compete with potentially destructive behavior. And so as a psychologist, you just want to make sure people have a variety of potential reinforcers. If you don't have that, you increase the likelihood of people engaging in behaviors that society does not condone.

Skills that are employable or marketable, education, having a stake or meaningful role in society, not being marginalized—all of those things are very important. Instead of ensuring that all of our members have these things, our society has blamed drugs, said drugs are the reasons that people don't have a stake in society, and that's simply not true.

KG:What is actually responsible for problems often linked to drugs?

CH: Poverty. And there are policies that have played a role, too. Policies like placing a large percentage of our law enforcment resources in those communities, so that when people get charged with some petty crime, they have a blemish on their record that further decreases their ability to join mainstream, get a job that's meaningful, and that sort of thing.

KG:What would policy that reflects reality look like, and how do we get there?

CH: That is complex, but quite simple to start. The first thing is we decriminalize all drugs. More than 80% of people arrested for drugs are arrested for simple possession. Wen you decriminalize, now you have that huge number of people—we're talking 1.5 million people arrested every year—that no longer have that blemish on their record. That increases the likelihood that they can get jobs, participate in the mainstream........

Full article: http://www.alternet.org/drugs-addiction?sc=fb


I doubt very much you speak for all blacks. And if you really do, you're doing millions a disservice when you want to make the issue of poverty something to be laughed at or ignored.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016132112

[Skidmore]

23. If you pay attention, all the money

a black person or any other person of color can have doesn't eliminate the injustices they experience in this American culture. Money isn't the answer to all things. This is the came sort of canard the right falls for. No one is saying that poverty is not a serious issue. It is one issue and those who ignore the whole gamut of injustices do a greater disservice.

[polly7]

24. Yeah, no shit. Who doesn't already know that? But one cannot even start to be 'remedied' without

the other.

[Skidmore]

25. Progress. nt

[polly7]

26. Some here don't seem to think progress is all that important. nt.

[Skidmore]

28. There is progress and then there is

Progress, as political jingoism. I tend to seek the former because it doesn't bind my spirit or imprison my hopes. It also doesn't cloud my mind.

[polly7]

31. For me, there is only real progress. As in people having the economic ability to feed their

children, make a living wage, not being forced to live in a horrible neighbourhood with no chance of normal life for those children, being able to afford decent health-care, and on and on and on.

Being poor is being in a prison from which many cannot get out of. Shrugging it off as 'not real' when someone has fought - and is fighting in order to be able to help those affected by it is actually pretty heartless, and probably done by those who've already got theirs - really not caring much about the millions suffering in poverty - and in many cases, hopelessness and self-destruction.

[Skidmore]

32. And what makes you think that we all

don't share those concerns. When "progressive" was turned into a jingoistic term for exclusion except for a sliver, a seriously shortsighted error was made.

[polly7]

34. It's obvious many here don't. Read this thread, and many others shrugging it off,

laughing, high-fiving ..... minimizing the importance of it is a tool being used to discredit the man who's believed in improving the lives of all Americans for decades, and who's smart enough to realize that being economically stable at least, is one way to lift every person up for a chance at a decent, fulfilling life.

[Skidmore]

35. You are flat out wrong.

Many of these people are my friends. All are good and decent human beings who care about their nation, communities, and loved ones. It seems to me that there is a group of self-styled "progressives" are heavily invested in tuning out their very important message by shutting it down if that message cannot be forced into the narrow compartment allotted to it. This struggle will go on beyond this election with or without the current players.

[polly7]

36. I see what I see. nt.

[Skidmore]

38. It is evident that

you see what you want to see.

[polly7]

40. No, I don't WANT to see anyone denied the chance at a decent life.

I see economic issues - for all people - being USED as a political tool - and how PATHETIC is that?

[Sancho]

44. You see through rose colored glasses....

Bernie's world and the idea of return to the 50's and 60's of economic growth as a fix to the US is wrong.

In Florida, more than 25% were born outside of the US. Half have a direct personal connection to the undocumented.

Vermont doesn't have tuition equity. You can't demand a "minimum wage" if you are paid slave wages cash and have no status. You can't even visit your child's school as a parent - even if the child is born here as a US citizen - because you fear deportation.

In today's real world, economics take second place to real, honest, social justice. That has to start with equality for all - immigrants, minorities, women! It's naive and wrong to follow Bernie's old plan.

Across the Sun Belt are 20, 30, or 40 million people (and growing) who do not have equality. If you include women and minorities - the majority are marginalized. Tearing down Wall Street won't make a bit of difference. Breaking up banks won't even cause anything more than a back page article in the NYT.

What will make a different is pay transparency, a path to citizenship, tuition equity, early, equal education, and voting rights. Sorry, but if you look with focused lenses Bernie is the weakest of all the Democratic candidates. He doesn't get it, hasn't lived it, and proves his lack of insight everytime he yells at a NE or midWest bunch of working, white folks. Archie Bunker still lives in the US.

[polly7]

46. Blah, blah, blah. I saw what you wrote at your cave. Puke.

Not someone I'm interested in reading a word from, frankly.

[Skidmore]

49. The message doesn't fit in the pigeon hole allotted

so shut it down. This is not progressive.

[Cha]

128. Anyone who spews "blah" in the discussion isn't worth engaging. They have nothing.

[polly7]

145. Look in a mirror. I really, really, truly think you should ......... nt.

[Cha]

150. Ha! See.. I told you they had nothing.

[Sancho]

52. Have fun reading where ever you want...

You are simply wrong. Every analysis proves it.

Bernie is wrong, and that's why he has no following in most of the country.

My position has not changed in months other than to document everything I've posted.

You can call me names and be sarcastic all you want. Wrong is wrong.

I've listened to Bernie for years, studied his proposals, been to union meeting that analyzed candidates, and read about his policies.

He is wrong, and you are choosing to blindly follow a snake oil seller. It doesn't matter since Bernie will lose the primary, but it makes DU the last place I go to because of the personal insults.

Tell me, how does Bernie address pay transparency, voting rights, or real citizenship? He doesn't. He does vote to support gun manufacturers and invite military contractors to Vermont. Bernie's values are clear in his actions. Your particular stand in this thread is a perfect example of shouting loud claims without logic.

When facts don't support you, then resort to personal attacks.

[polly7]

53. I just told you, I read enough to make me quite sure I don't need to see your screeds. nt.

[Sancho]

57. You would think that with all the posts about ethnic minorities you would have more insight.

Maybe you are one page short of the conclusion.

Bernie's ideas simply are 50 years out of date and won't work in today's international capitalism or fix the inequities in the US.

Happy Thanksgiving...

[polly7]

59. I have great insight into economic disparity affecting all ....... and the suffering because of it.

Probably you are 100 pages short of the reality for millions unable to live decent lives in sheer poverty ........... bet you skipped those purposefully though, they're not helpful for your 'cause'.

[Sancho]

64. Bernie's economic plans won't fix that poverty...

because you can't demand wages, apply to college, or benefit from "free tuition" if you are not documented.

You can't demand equal pay as a woman if you don't have access to salary information.

You can't tax the millionaires when the money is not even in a US bank or on US soil.

You can't live a decent life when kids don't have preschool and early education, you can't use medicaid without fearing deportation, you can't register or vote because of carefully crafted laws that prevent equal participation.

The way to improve lives in the US - including long term fixes to economic problems - lies in profit sharing; not raising the minimum wage; citizenship but not tearing down Wall Street; and pay transparency; not easy gun running on trains. We need international regulation of bad bankers; not another G-S from the 1930's. We need tuition equity and equal entrance to education regardless of status. We don't need a tax on the retirement funds of state employees and union members.

Bernie is wrong on the economic and social issues that are important to progressives, liberals, and real Democrats. A good speech is not real change.

[polly7]

65. Buh bye. You don't seem to get my message.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=855223

[sheshe2]

133. Bravo Sancho.

Tell it!

[polly7]

147. LOL

Nah ........................

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Armstead]

41. And you think people are ignoring other issues?

That's very shallow and superficial.

Sometimes I think the only issue some people care about is electing Clinton and/or insulting Sanders and his supporters. Evbery issurs is just an excuse to advance that. All else is irrelevant.

[Skidmore]

47. I think you should read

for comprehension because you are still missing the point.

[Armstead]

54. The point is see beaten in over and over is....

that the "phony progressives" who support Sanders are myopic morons who think that the only issue is "economics" in the most shallow way, and are commie radicals to boot.

That those "Berniebros" are oblivious to other issues and the complexities of race, gender, guns and whatever issue Clinton happens to adopt in a particular week.

That's the message I see from certain people relentlessly. Please enlighten me if there is another point.

[Skidmore]

58. I'm interested in seeing how that message is taken on board

and incorporated. Still waiting.

[Armstead]

60. I'm not going to cite other posters here, but.....

you can read some of it here on this thread as well as many others.

And this:

&quot All the monry)...a black person or any other person of color can have doesn't eliminate the injustices they experience in this American culture. Money isn't the answer to all things. This is the came sort of canard the right falls for. No one is saying that poverty is not a serious issue. It is one issue and those who ignore the whole gamut of injustices do a greater disservice.


It seems to me that there is a group of self-styled "progressives" are heavily invested in tuning out their very important message by shutting it down if that message cannot be forced into the narrow compartment allotted to it. This struggle will go on beyond this election with or without the current players."

[Skidmore]

63. I take that as a non answer. nt

[Armstead]

70. Take it however you want

If you don't see (or want to see) the connection, that's not my problem.

[Live and Learn]

61. +1000 nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

84. Jesus freaking Christ! How much time and energy do you spend trying to tear this guy down?

He is good on the issues, and you know it.

Yet you seem to have developed this obsession with sniping at him.

You are a one-trick pony. What are you going do once Hillary has the nomination wrapped up?

[bravenak]

86. Why should I build him up?

I do not want him to be the nominee. If I stop posting about Sanders will that make people stop posting negative stuff about Hillary? No. It won't. I think people are just mad because they know I used to support Sanders and HATED Clinton. And they know that THEY changed my mind, not HIM. And there is nothing they can do or say to change my mind back. Not even a private call From Bernie himself would have one iota of effect. I want to help her beat him in any small insignificant way I can. Perhap had things gone different, I would be posting in favor of him. I will vote for Hillary early in the morning with bells on. Ding ding!! And my vote counts too!!

[bobbobbins01]

116. The internet is full of a bunch of meanieheads.

Someone who supports Bernie wronged her in some way and it triggered some kind of kill bill style vendetta. If you try to actually engage her in a debate on issues and policy, she'll take her ball and go home. She's actually helping Bernie and doesn't realize it though, because she makes Hillary supporters look irrational.

[bravenak]

136. .

[Starry Messenger]

13. Martinsplaining.

I just thought of that.

[bravenak]

14. It fits!!

[Cha]

15. Yes, I've seen the way BS "reframes" history..

"Sometimes people forget he was assassinated because he stood up with sanitation workers fighting for decent wages and decent working conditions," Sanders said, referring to King being shot in 1968 in Memphis, where he went to support striking workers."

You Forgot "BLACK" Sanitations workers, berni!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251842847#post32

Bernice King and Cornel West are nice touches, too.

Thank you, bravenak~

[bravenak]

81. I notice stuff.

[Cha]

126. And, berni doesn't. Notice the one trying to change the subject.. deflect from BS because

they got nothing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

144. Nothing but your very own words...

[cherokeeprogressive]

117. Lots of people "reframe" history...

36. You got it, TwoSparkles...Proof

about the one thing I care about the most and hilary is a two faced liar..always mumbling platitudes outta one side of her mouth and lying her tweaked head off outta the other.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4663247

[bravenak]

141. .

[RiverLover]

18. And yet, there are many blacks for Bernie. Here are some of them on video~

I truly hope he becomes president. He will help elevate all people, and there will be less divide. He'll also bring major change to the criminal justice system, as you can see him talk about in the video above. He doesn't take $ from the people who profit from the status quo, so he can actually do something to bring the change needed.

This next video shows the real Bernie Sanders lie, you should watch this (Maybe work for good again.)~

[bravenak]

77. That is very nice.

I do not believe Bernie. I did not like his speech on the sanitation workers where he left out vital info. Completely erased us from our own history by leaving out the fact that the strikers were black men trying to get the same pay and conditions as white men. I feel that that was a very important historical fact. It should have been noted.

[Laser102]

19. One trick pony. Economics. One trick is all this candidate can do. Economics. We need more.

[RiverLover]

20. One trick? You're falling for the DU meme by conservatives here.

Open eyes see more.



http://www.theroot.com/articles/politics/2015/11/here_s_why_bernie_sanders_might_be_blacker_than_you.html

[BainsBane]

89. I thought it was a transaction tax on all large stock market purchases and sales

Not just derivatives?

[bravenak]

82. Economics. The End.

[Vinca]

22. Why would he change his argument?

That's what's great about Bernie. You get what you get because that's what he believes in. He doesn't "adapt his beliefs" for particular audiences like the majority of politicians.

[99Forever]

29. The OP doesn't want Senator Sanders to change anything.

The OP just wants to diss him and toss stinkbait around.

[MissDeeds]

42. Yep n/t

[bravenak]

83. Aww!

[99Forever]

85. Outed.

[bravenak]

87. Ooooooooo!

[bravenak]

79. You might like it.

I am not interested. His words do not resonate with me.

[Vinca]

99. So don't vote for him then.

There was no point to your post.

[bravenak]

102. I won't. That's the point.

[Crystalite]

71. Sanders has Angela Henderson from the Orleans Parish Democratic Executive Committe FIRED UP!

This is a different kind of sign.

[George II]

74. So true. Even when he held his rally down there, did he hold it...

....in New Orleans which is 60% black? NOOOO, he held it in the white suburb of Metairie. Seems he almost goes out of his way to snub minorities in this campaign.

[bravenak]

78. I have not met one black supporter in person myself.

But I do live way up here in the north. But no signs, no bumperstickers. I have seen nothing. Most have not heard of him until I mention him.

[GitRDun]

88. This thread, once again demonstrates Sanders support base inability to become multidimensional

A quote from the article:

Facing that reality, Sanders has opted not to change his central argument, but to reframe it and force it in front of voters he's never before needed to win an election.

"Our job is to end institutional racism," he said on Monday at a raucous rally in downtown Atlanta. "But it is also to create an economy that makes sure our kids are able to get decent jobs and a decent education. I see those two issues as absolutely overlapping."

The author uses the language "reframe" and "force"

Bernie says economic justice overlaps with the end of institutional racism.

This one dimensional world view will gain very few votes from minorities. It minimizes so many social justice issues that plague the lives of minority communities, I can imagine some might find it a bit insulting.

The SBS supporter posts (to me) are just explaining why this narrative is OK...when it's not.

Sanders has an excellent record as mayor and in the Senate that should be the focal point of his campaign. I think I've said this 20 times on this board.

Instead, he continues on with this tone deaf economic justice is everything narrative and his supporters just keep explaining to us why we are uninformed, stupid, naive whatever the reason that we don't see it their way.

He will earn his defeat...and too bad...he has some very good qualities.

[bravenak]

90. By his framing it is obvious that certain issues are just not his forte.

Over and over I see signs that his understanding is only superficial, that our issues may not resonate with him in the way we need them to.

The constant lectures from some telling how uninformed and uneducated we are if we take issue is positivity ridiculous at this point. He does have some good qualities, but imo, never changing is not good in a leader.

[GitRDun]

91. +1

[NurseJackie]

149. *

He will earn his defeat...and too bad...he has some very good qualities.

Well stated.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

94. Good for him for not "evolving" for political expediency like another candidate frequently does.

[bravenak]

97. I'm glad too since this helps him lose.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

98. Yeah, having ethics and principles is a sure loser for politicians.

Better to "evolve" and sell out to the highest bidder.

[AtomicKitten]

100. Jon Stewart explains this phenomenon brilliantly.

[bravenak]

101. He leaves stuff out that is important to me.

[guillaumeb]

104. If you accept that this is Sanders' argument:

Facing that reality, Sanders has opted not to change his central argument, but to reframe it and force it in front of voters he's never before needed to win an election.

"Our job is to end institutional racism," he said on Monday at a raucous rally in downtown Atlanta. "But it is also to create an economy that makes sure our kids are able to get decent jobs and a decent education. I see those two issues as absolutely overlapping."

How would you, or anyone here, reframe the argument? What should the argument be?

[bravenak]

106. Here:

King, Sanders reminded them, railed against the Vietnam War as an unjust battle fought by poor and working-class Americans, and went to Memphis, where he was assassinated, to support striking sanitation workers.

Read more: Neighbor Newspapers - Wooing blacks Sanders reframes but doesn t change argument

Notice anything? The sanitation workers were black men fighting for the same wages as white men. What would I do? Stop leaving that stuff out in favor of generic terms which completely erases us from the history he is discussing. That is what the article means, he is so interested in his ideology that he will reframe the history and neglect to mention important things.

[guillaumeb]

107. An excellent point. I expected no less.

Similar to discussing police murders of young people without mentioning that most of the murdered "just happen" to be non-white.

I believe that part of the problem is that the media is interested in short quotes and easily digestible soundbites. But there is also a systemic attempt to deny that the US is a deeply racist country. The "we elected a black guy so that proves we are not racist" argument.

The media, and most politicians, will also not talk about the racially motivated Congressional dysfunction that has resulted in nearly 8 years of gridlock.I agree that politicians must keep talking about how racism frames and motivates nearly every problem in the US today.

Thanks, from a mostly white progressive.

[bravenak]

109. Thank you.

[redstateblues]

127. Thank you

For continuing to speak out so articulately in the face of the onslaught against you on DU

[lovemydog]

154. +1

[Gothmog]

115. Sanders is still not doing well with non-white voters in Texas according to the polls

[bravenak]

140. That makes sense with his numbers nationally.