Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
124 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
We literally can't afford Hillary... (Original Post) Playinghardball Dec 2015 OP
How much salary do you think Hillary will be receiving over what Sanders would be receiving? Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #1
You missed the point entirely. Kudos. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #2
Hillary is not expecting to make as much money as president and therefore is willing to Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #10
It is the levers of power Hillary would have access to as president, not the twice monthly paycheck. -none Dec 2015 #13
Sources in which she will have at her disposal. Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #15
That's a cute narrative, but nobody runs for president for the salary -- not Bernie either. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #16
Who is responsible for Sanders not having the same relationship, after all he has been Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #17
He himself is responsible for not having the same relationship, and proud of it JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #21
This person is purposely missing your point. Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #25
I hope so too. Standard fare for Hillary supporters and this one in particular. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #28
I'm not poking fun either. Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #32
I have interacted before. I always got the impression I was being trolled. n/t JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #33
I get that feeling from all of them. Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #38
Yes, that analogy makes perfect sense. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #54
I already signed up, but it's still in the early stages Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #55
I saw that when you were into it. pangaia Dec 2015 #85
By the way, that writer has claimed to have two degrees in economics (!!) JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #96
What is JPR? pangaia Dec 2015 #88
JackPine Radicals, a new lefty discussion board which is very pro-Bernie. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #94
Great, Thanks.. pangaia Dec 2015 #97
I've interacted too Plucketeer Dec 2015 #43
What do you mean? It makes one too ill to interact with such poison? JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #98
Unfortunately, it is not the case that this person in purposely missing the point. pangaia Dec 2015 #82
Are you saying... Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #83
I would not go that far at all. pangaia Dec 2015 #84
Well, this person feels no need to defend him/herself Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #86
It is ok, this one is going into my little file of bizarre interactions w/ Hillarians. n/t JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #100
Bernie Does not have the Same Relationship as Hillary Does because... gordyfl Dec 2015 #69
Anyone Who Suggests Such A Thing Is Clearly Blind To The Facts... Especially CorporatistNation Dec 2015 #23
Devotion? lol 840high Dec 2015 #37
She has already sold access to herself. JDPriestly Dec 2015 #42
I think she is expecting to make a lot of money. Goldman-Sachs is very generous. nm rhett o rick Dec 2015 #46
She doesn't need any money redstateblues Dec 2015 #109
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! chervilant Dec 2015 #61
Hillary's devotion is to power and her corporate donors. GoneOffShore Dec 2015 #118
What in the world does that have to do with the OP? pangaia Dec 2015 #9
The Title "We literally can't afford Hillary..." Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #12
Bernie Sanders Net Worth is $528,014 liberalnarb Dec 2015 #62
What a sad commentary on the state of politics today... Hillary should be ashamed. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2015 #80
Poor Bernie- Only half a million dollars redstateblues Dec 2015 #110
Candidate for the 99% because he's part of the 99%. liberalnarb Dec 2015 #111
Sorry, but I'm a Sanders supporter no more Hybrid Dec 2015 #3
What a load Furrfu Dec 2015 #4
Welcome to DU 840high Dec 2015 #39
Your first post... AZ Progressive Dec 2015 #5
Welcome to DU! Paulie Dec 2015 #6
Welcome to DU. murielm99 Dec 2015 #7
Welcome to DU Cali_Democrat Dec 2015 #11
Not worried about changes to your social security are you? Some above the 90% may not need it. DhhD Dec 2015 #19
a transparent load of BS. grasswire Dec 2015 #29
There appears to be no limit to how low they can go. InAbLuEsTaTe Dec 2015 #81
Oh please MissDeeds Dec 2015 #35
Your first post at DU is a tired, worn out cliche'. bvar22 Dec 2015 #36
This is not one of their better tactics but they are willing to use them all. nm rhett o rick Dec 2015 #47
What a troll post for a first post jfern Dec 2015 #41
This is hilarious. There is ZERO chance this is a true story. Sorry, don't believe you. stillwaiting Dec 2015 #44
Bad analogy. Eric J in MN Dec 2015 #49
Sanders did not steal information from Hillary. JDPriestly Dec 2015 #57
Yes, he did. seabeyond Dec 2015 #65
Please read the NGP Van website. It describes what happened. JDPriestly Dec 2015 #74
They knew they had access to something they were not to have access, they took the material. Theft. seabeyond Dec 2015 #89
They did searches to ascertain what material they were capable of accessing. JDPriestly Dec 2015 #104
Nope. Theft. Difference between honest and dishonest. seabeyond Dec 2015 #105
Are you a criminal lawyer? Why do you say it is theft? JDPriestly Dec 2015 #107
When some takes something that does not belong to them and arent allowed it is theft. Not hard. seabeyond Dec 2015 #116
Define "something that does not belong to them and aren't allowed" in the context of JDPriestly Dec 2015 #119
That something was data, that belonged to Clinton, that Sanders stole. seabeyond Dec 2015 #120
No, it's not like that at all. JunkyardAngel83 Dec 2015 #93
And to what site do you think that the Sanders campaign saved the Hillary campaign data? JDPriestly Dec 2015 #103
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!! chervilant Dec 2015 #70
Bravo, a parody worthy of TWM himself Fumesucker Dec 2015 #71
I hope he is here (as well as *there*), posting without the TWM just to screw with us. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #101
Watergate? What's that? Never heard of it. pangaia Dec 2015 #87
Thanks for the laugh! Ino Dec 2015 #92
Cool story bro beltanefauve Dec 2015 #99
Thank you for a very hearty laugh. JonLeibowitz Dec 2015 #102
thousands would believe you olddots Dec 2015 #113
Well, do what you gotta do Scootaloo Dec 2015 #117
Welcome back!! Autumn Jan 2016 #123
This is satire, right? Armstead Jan 2016 #124
Those fees go to charity treestar Dec 2015 #8
All of this and nothing positive for Sanders. Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #14
Hilarious! earthside Dec 2015 #18
what is wrong with the Clinton foundation? treestar Dec 2015 #20
Just so typical of Hillary Clinton. earthside Dec 2015 #24
Aside from the fact that 85% of donations go to "overhead" which means PAY DAY.. bvar22 Dec 2015 #77
Charity begins at home! bvar22 Dec 2015 #50
Do You Recognize the Term "Quid Pro Quo? CorporatistNation Dec 2015 #26
The speech was given in exchange for the money treestar Dec 2015 #52
charity?? grasswire Dec 2015 #30
She has amassed an amazing wealth for just selling books (wink, wink). nm rhett o rick Dec 2015 #48
If people want to buy your book treestar Dec 2015 #53
But of course. When Newt Gingrich wrote a book, Rupert Murdock was willing to rhett o rick Dec 2015 #72
She is so like all of us poor schmucks, uh? earthside Dec 2015 #22
Senator Sanders "An Unblemished FIFTY YEAR RECORD Of Working On Behalf of Average Folks" CorporatistNation Dec 2015 #27
And her "just stop it" to the banks really caused them to take notice. (sarcasm) The Duval Dec 2015 #40
I heard she yelled it from her limo while riding down Wall Street. nm rhett o rick Dec 2015 #51
Thanks, earth side. You found it! Duval Dec 2015 #45
Sander didnt have a grown up job until 40's. I'm sure all us po schmucks were allowed that prilivege seabeyond Dec 2015 #66
Please, stop making fun of Hillary! Helen Borg Dec 2015 #31
Bought and paid for in advance. jalan48 Dec 2015 #34
That will be small change compared to redstateblues Dec 2015 #56
I don't know if America can afford Sanders NYCButterfinger Dec 2015 #58
You sound like a Republican AZ Progressive Dec 2015 #59
I am not a Republican. C'mon now. NYCButterfinger Dec 2015 #112
Yeahhhh, that's not going to fly either. byronius Dec 2015 #68
She is an extremely accomplished woman. NCTraveler Dec 2015 #60
Always "sexist". earthside Dec 2015 #76
"She is an extremely accomplished woman." Lots of people are. pangaia Dec 2015 #90
Charge the corporation, Speak to the people for free. That works, as a non corporatist, right? seabeyond Dec 2015 #63
Once again, it is clear that to some, Democrats should wear sackcloth and ashes... Hekate Dec 2015 #64
Yeah, I'm proud of her. byronius Dec 2015 #67
Yep, she loves those billionaires senz Dec 2015 #73
Crazy how a chart libodem Dec 2015 #75
Nobody will win this argument libodem Dec 2015 #78
Has she gotten over being "Dead brok" yet? Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2015 #79
Yea, I've been wondering about that, too. pangaia Dec 2015 #91
Right after leaving the White House "dead broke", HoneychildMooseMoss Dec 2015 #106
Yes they did. Not TOO far from where I live. pangaia Dec 2015 #121
That's a favorite meme of a Republican redstateblues Dec 2015 #108
#notmyabuela azmom Dec 2015 #95
Recommended. H2O Man Dec 2015 #114
we have a winner olddots Dec 2015 #115
If she wins, how much will the State of the Union speech cost the tax payers? LiberalArkie Dec 2015 #122

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
2. You missed the point entirely. Kudos.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 05:55 PM
Dec 2015

The point is that we the people can not afford the same level of access as these other donors have been able to obtain. And access is influence, at best.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
10. Hillary is not expecting to make as much money as president and therefore is willing to
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:29 PM
Dec 2015

Work for the presidential because of her devotion to Americans.

-none

(1,884 posts)
13. It is the levers of power Hillary would have access to as president, not the twice monthly paycheck.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:34 PM
Dec 2015

That's where the real money is.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
16. That's a cute narrative, but nobody runs for president for the salary -- not Bernie either.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:36 PM
Dec 2015

The point is about access to political power and we the American people cannot compete with these interests. Think about it.

And you also deflected from my point and didn't address it at all.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
17. Who is responsible for Sanders not having the same relationship, after all he has been
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:38 PM
Dec 2015

In congress for twenty five years.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
21. He himself is responsible for not having the same relationship, and proud of it
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:41 PM
Dec 2015

As in, he has ethics and doesn't want to feel beholden to moneyed interests. He represents the State of Vermont, not trade groups and businesses.

I would very much not like my President to have such cozy relationships with Deutsche Bank, Biotech trade organizations, Chambers of Congress, etc.

 

Ned_Devine

(3,146 posts)
25. This person is purposely missing your point.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:54 PM
Dec 2015

At least I hope that's the case. If not, this person is almost too naive to vote.

 

Ned_Devine

(3,146 posts)
38. I get that feeling from all of them.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:28 PM
Dec 2015

In my mind I'm thinking "they can't really be serious, right?" It's almost like the kind of arguments kids would have on a playground when they didn't have facts to generate a genuine debate. Does that analogy make sense? I feel terrible writing this stuff, but I'm a relatively rationally minded guy, and I leave this site many times just shaking my head in amazement.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
54. Yes, that analogy makes perfect sense.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:44 PM
Dec 2015

I cannot believe some are so ignorant, if not willingly. Arguing with kids on a playground is apt--you can't convince or rationally argue, it is all a farce. The child if nothing else will run away with their fingers in their ears.

You should see the conversation i had the other day, I was in disbelief that i had to have that conversation: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251934296

I also am dismayed by the focus on polls over issues, heaven knows we have enough issues to talk about. But Hillary comes up short nearly every time. In a way there is no point in arguing either issues or current events with them. That is why i am considering going to JPR instead.

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
96. By the way, that writer has claimed to have two degrees in economics (!!)
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 10:46 PM
Dec 2015

And yet doesn't understand 5th grade mathematics. I am not sure what to think anymore about the Hillary supporters. Sum things just don't add up!

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
94. JackPine Radicals, a new lefty discussion board which is very pro-Bernie.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 10:43 PM
Dec 2015

It is filled with some of the greatest writers I have seen on DU, and yes, MannyGoldstein is there too (along with Third Way Manny!).

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
43. I've interacted too
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:35 PM
Dec 2015

And I've vowed to quit. And not because I feel inferior. It's not about right or wrong.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
84. I would not go that far at all.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 09:50 PM
Dec 2015

But my brief discussions with her/him are not encouraging.

Then again, sometimes I can be pretty naive.

gordyfl

(598 posts)
69. Bernie Does not have the Same Relationship as Hillary Does because...
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:21 PM
Dec 2015

Bernie Sanders "I do not want their money."

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
23. Anyone Who Suggests Such A Thing Is Clearly Blind To The Facts... Especially
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:51 PM
Dec 2015

As Denoted Above... Just a Sampling... #9 of the 14 Characteristics that define a FASCIST State 9. Corporate Power is Protected

- The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
42. She has already sold access to herself.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:34 PM
Dec 2015

Hillary owes the people who have bought and paid for her services in the past. The speaking fees are enormous.

It takes a person working for federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour a total of 41,379 hours to earn the $300,000 that she was paid for some of her speeches. That is 1,034 weeks or 19 years of 40-hour weeks.

Hillary is the very prize example of the oligarchy who earns so many times the wages of others that it CAUSES the income inequality in our country.

$300,000 or even $1 million in income a year is not so terribly shocking. But $300,000 for a single speech? Preparation and all time, even transportation added up still makes that fee for a speech quite amazing.

If she wanted to earn that kind of money for a speech, she should have decided not to run for the presidency.

Even at the $12 minimum wage that Hillary supports, it would take a worker 25,000 hours divided by a 40 hour week means 625 weeks, divided by 52 means it would take a minimum wage American worker earning $12 an hour about 12 years to earn that amount of money.

$12 times 40 hours is 480 per week times 52 is only 24,920 dollars per year and it would earn a person earning $12 per hour about 12 years to earn what Hillary got for one speech to one organization.

It's great that she earns that kind of money for a speech.

But to run as a Democrat for the presidency when you have sold yourself to people and organizations who potentially want things from our government that contravene or would harm the interests of ordinary voters in some cases is just not smart.

We all have to make choices. Hillary has sold herself to special interests. Some of them are great organizations. But Hillary can't serve them and us at the same time. And she owes them a lot of money.



chervilant

(8,267 posts)
61. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:05 PM
Dec 2015

Chortle, snort, giggle, guffaw!

Thanks for that levity!

(Even with the evidence staring you in your face, you cannot see that HRC is VERY interested in money?)

GoneOffShore

(17,340 posts)
118. Hillary's devotion is to power and her corporate donors.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 04:08 AM
Dec 2015

She's going to cash in whatever happens.

And the rest of us are going to pay for her hubris.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
12. The Title "We literally can't afford Hillary..."
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:31 PM
Dec 2015

Oh, BTW, a personal attack on me is really not needed.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,122 posts)
80. What a sad commentary on the state of politics today... Hillary should be ashamed.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 09:26 PM
Dec 2015

Bernie & Elizabeth 2016!!!

Hybrid

(1 post)
3. Sorry, but I'm a Sanders supporter no more
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 05:57 PM
Dec 2015

This is so hard for me to say, because I've been a Bernie Sander's fan for a long time. I've followed his political career in Vermont since his was in the house. I admired his honesty, his spunk, his concern about real people over corporate interests, his concern about income inequality. Like me, he seemed to have true feelings of empathy for others. I admire that in a politician, especially in a world where it seems that everyone is in it only for themselves.

That's why the last few days have been so hard on me.

I turned on the TV and heard that Bernie Sander's campaign had stolen Hillary Clinton's data from a DNC database. I just can't believe it.

I'm old enough to remember another time when a presidential figure gained inappropriate access to DNC files. However, instead of a primary candidate, it was a president himself. His name was Nixon, and the scandal was called Watergate.

Back in those days, I was filled with rage, but, today, all I can do is cry with sadness. Watergate was a violation, but Berniegate is a betrayal.

And, just like those days in the dark past, the scandal is in the cover-up. What did he know? When did he know it? He's blaming his campaign, but he's also suing the victims.

My heart is just not in the Sander's campaign anymore. I feel so betrayed, and I just can't stop crying. I can't support Bernie anymore.

Hillary Clinton, 2016!

 

Furrfu

(32 posts)
4. What a load
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:00 PM
Dec 2015

If you believe that Hillary is above the fray, then let me se you a well-used bridge that I just passed by.

murielm99

(30,754 posts)
7. Welcome to DU.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:17 PM
Dec 2015

It is a tough place for those of us who do not worship Bernie, but so what?

Enjoy the holidays, too!

DhhD

(4,695 posts)
19. Not worried about changes to your social security are you? Some above the 90% may not need it.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:40 PM
Dec 2015

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
36. Your first post at DU is a tired, worn out cliche'.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:27 PM
Dec 2015

We've heard it all before.
Someone suddenly decides to switch sides, and posts about it on DU,
and nobody believes it.

I think I'll make one up about not being able to support Hillary because of the Conflicts of Interest between her and Wall Street Banks,
or her campaign so "friendly" with the execs at NGP VAN that we can't believe anything they say.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
44. This is hilarious. There is ZERO chance this is a true story. Sorry, don't believe you.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:35 PM
Dec 2015

Last edited Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:32 PM - Edit history (1)

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
49. Bad analogy.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:40 PM
Dec 2015

In the 1970s, Nixon's staff broke into a hotel room and stole files.

In the 2015 case, the vendor chosen by the DNC had buggy software. Sanders' staff could view information about the Hillary Clinton campaign by clicking. Three of them couldn't resist the temptation, and one was fired by Sanders and two were suspended by Sanders.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
57. Sanders did not steal information from Hillary.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:55 PM
Dec 2015

NGP Van took responsibility.

NGP Van has a database that includes the basic voter data.

It then has for each candidate a private database that takes the basic voter data and adds the candidate's proprietary, private information and notes to that common basic database.

If you go to NGP Van's website, you learn that NGP Van had a "bug" in one of the "releases" of their database. It lasted about one hour and 40 minutes. It gave permission to Bernie's campaign to view Hillary's data, to search it and save it to folders -- which I assume necessarily stayed on the NGP Van website.

Someone from Bernie's campaign went into that combined database which included its information as well as Hillary's and did searches. The searches were phrased so that they could have either had the purpose of ascertaining that Hillary's information was in the database provided by the vendor NGP Van to Bernie's campaign and the extent and types of Hillary's information that was provided to Bernie's campaign, OR it could have had the purpose of actually obtaining and looking at the details of Hillary's campaign. Not much viewing could have been done in an hour and 40 minutes. Little would be retained unless the viewer had a photographic memory.

Hard to tell which purpose the Bernie campaign employee had unless he has said something about his purpose. NGP Van stated on its website that one item was exported by one campaign.

A prior similar breach occurred in October at which time, I gather, the Bernie campaign believed that its website was accessed by another campaign. Bernie's campaign reported it.

NGP Van has stated that it was not the vendor involved in the October breach.

So that is the story.

The DNC has been pro-Hillary and has employed many pro-Hillary employees from the get-go.

This does not reflect on Bernie personally at all. Someone in his campaign may or may not have overreached in reviewing the data on the website.

But when you think in terms of what the employee saw going into the database, here is how it worked.

The employee went in to find Bernie's data. There is no accusation that a Bernie employee intentionally sought access to Hillary data when he/she entered the website. Clearly at that point the intention of the Bernie employee was to query Bernie information.

But what did the employee, the Bernie employee find? Hillary information was there, probably mixed up with Bernie's data.

If you have ever worked with a database, like say Google, you can find a lot of stuff on there that is not of interest to you. You query it to ask a question. That's what we know that Bernie's employee did. He/she asked for information just like you do when you Google. The questions he asked, the information he requested identified Hillary data. Like Hillary's list of voters who are strongly favoring Hillary. It was something like that. I am not quoting.

Bernie's staff did not seek access to Hillary's information. They received it due to a mistake by the vendor who was most likely contractually responsible for protecting the privacy of the data of each of the campaigns.

If I had been looking at the website, I might well have wanted to ascertain what the extent and quality of the mixing of the data was and would have queried for Hillary's data in precisely the obvious way the Bernie's staff did. This is especially likely since Bernie had experienced a similar breach with a website managed by a different company in October.

The searches that were made were obviously for Hillary's information and were made in a manner that insured that the website managing company, NGP Van could trace the history of the searches. That is what makes me think that the searches were not intended to obtain the information so much as to be able to prove the nature and extent of the breach. Bernie's first thought would be to protect its own information. Bernie's campaign could benefit from Hillary's information to a certain extent, but more important to Bernie's campaign would be protecting its own information from Hillary's (probably much larger) staff.

I think this matter should be investigated by a truly independent and qualified outsider.

I hope that Bernie continues to press his lawsuit on this matter.

And in the meantime, Debbie Wasserman Schultz needs to go. Bernie is drawing crowds of over a thousand people at a time in Iowa. In the same or similar geographic venues, Hillary is drawing crowds in the low hundreds. Hillary must be getting desperate. No doubt this accusation against Bernie's campaign was made so rashly and without a thorough discussion with Bernie because Hillary is getting scared. She is a weak candidate, a vulnerable candidate, and her platform is not selling.

So I hope you rethink your decision.

Thanks.

NGP Van's statement is here. Here is an excerpt:

First, a one page-style report containing summary data on a list was saved out of VoteBuilder by one Sanders user. This is what some people have referred to as the “export” from VoteBuilder. As noted below, users were unable to export lists of people.

http://blog.ngpvan.com/data-security-and-privacy

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
74. Please read the NGP Van website. It describes what happened.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:48 PM
Dec 2015

It's as if you go into Facebook to check on your friends' posts and find that you have access to all the information of everybody else. You are permitted to see say President Obama's Facebook page and all the Facebook pages of everybody whether you know them or not. You are not stealing information if you look at the Facebook pages and try to figure out what in the world you are getting and the extent of it.

It's the job of Facebook to separate the information and protect the privacy of their subscribers.

I'd like to see the language in the contract between DNC and NGP Van and the various campaigns. It would be interesting to know how the vendor's duties were defined. That is where the problem was. Bernie's campaign did not steal information although one campaign, I assume Bernie's exported one page, and I don't know what was on that page.

As I understand it, the files that were said to have been saved would have been saved to the website of NGP Van, not to some other place.

That is what it says on NGP Van's site. I provided the link but that site and its blog can also be Googled.

An independent investigation by an organization or individuals agreed to by the parties or appointed by the court is needed.

Thanks.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
89. They knew they had access to something they were not to have access, they took the material. Theft.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 10:08 PM
Dec 2015

It is the difference between honest and dishonest. Regardless how you wrap it up.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
104. They did searches to ascertain what material they were capable of accessing.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 11:31 PM
Dec 2015

We don't know whether it was honest or dishonest. It was most likely honest in my view.

Have you ever worked with a database other than Google?

I have. Years ago.

Have you tried to imagine the quantity of data they were looking at? Lists of voters from many states. Huge lists. Enormous lists with data attached.

It's not the difference between honest and dishonest. Not at all. The data with the exception of one page remained on the website and under the control of the vendor NGP Van.

Anyone who works with these kinds of databases or has worked with them knows that there is a history of searches. In fact, when I worked with a database (and think of it Quickbooks is a type of database that a lot of people have worked with), I went back and retrieved searches from my history so that I could retrieve the information.

The Hillary hysteria over this is just ridiculous, and I think the author of the article quoted and referred to in the OP is trying to tell people that.

The only value in these searches was verifying the extent of the breach and maybe the Bernie campaign could get a very general idea about Hillary's overall strategy. But not even that much.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
107. Are you a criminal lawyer? Why do you say it is theft?
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 12:06 AM
Dec 2015

How do you know?

Can you explain to me what was stolen?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
116. When some takes something that does not belong to them and arent allowed it is theft. Not hard.
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 01:35 AM
Dec 2015

I am surprised as hell ghat has to be stated out loud.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
119. Define "something that does not belong to them and aren't allowed" in the context of
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 04:29 AM
Dec 2015

NPG Van's explanation of what happened.

Bernie's team was allowed to search Hillary's data. They didn't "take" anything. It remained on the website with the exception of one page which I am assuming is the list of searches that we see published everywhere.

It's best to read the NGP Van website statement regarding the incident.

It's also good to try to understand how databases work.

Google is a good place to start. When you search on Google, you enter a huge database. You don't steal from it when you do a search. Google allows you to see the information you ask to see. There is lots of information on the internet that Google does not present to you when you do a search.

Another example, a better example, is Facebook. You can control what your friends can and cannot see on Facebook. Facebook can also control whether you can see certain information on the website too. That's how databases work.

What happened was that NGP Van allowed Bernie's campaign to see the data on Hillary's site. It's as if Facebook allowed you to see information on President Obama's personal Facebook page or my personal Facebook page. You aren't supposed to be on my friends list (nothing against you, but I don't know you), but if Facebook's software had a "bug" it could under certain circumstances allow anyone on the internet to access my personal or your personal Facebook page. I could look at what you have posted. I would not be stealing it. I would just have access to it. That's like what happened on the NGP Van website page. NGP Van had a bug in its program that allowed Bernie's campaign to see Hillary's data and search it.

Same was probably true for Hillary's campaign. We don't know yet just what Hillary's campaign did, but they may have looked at Bernie's data too. They may not have searched to determine the amount of Bernie information available to them, but then they may have looked at Bernie's information. All they would have had to do was to make general searches and saved them to their portion of the website. Later they could have just served their own portion of the website once the bug had been removed. The difference would be the Bernie data. The data missing from the later data would be Bernie's data. It wouldn't be easy to look at the data, but if you had a lot of staff you could see what you wanted to see. Even with not such a large staff, you might be able to measure how much information Bernie entered which would give you an idea of the strength and capacity of Bernie's database entry team.

So we can't assume that we know just what happened.

But "theft" it was not.

If Facebook lets you see and search my Facebook page, that is not theft by you.

Throwing terms like "theft" around when they do not apply is not a good idea.

Thanks.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
103. And to what site do you think that the Sanders campaign saved the Hillary campaign data?
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 11:19 PM
Dec 2015

To NGP Van which is where it came from and where it remains to this day.

The Sanders campaign did not save the data to some site outside the NGP Van website other than the one page of searches that you are reading in the first document you post.

They did not export more than the one page from the website.

The entire record is in the NGP Van log.

They stole nothing.

The Hillary supporters' allegations are false.

Go to the NGP Van website and read the facts.

http://blog.ngpvan.com/

First, a one page-style report containing summary data on a list was saved out of VoteBuilder by one Sanders user. This is what some people have referred to as the “export” from VoteBuilder. As noted below, users were unable to export lists of people.

As the OP's website said, the most they could get was a quick glance that MIGHT have enabled them to figure out some of Hillary's strategy on getting out her vote. But they probably already know that strategy.

The other websites you cite to are just opinion pieces of utterly no value.

Let a court case decide this.

Debbie Wasserman-Schultz was way out of line on this. She needs to resign.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
70. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:24 PM
Dec 2015

You are tooooo funny!!!

(I'd say welcome to DU, but I have a sneaking suspicion you might be getting a pizza delivery soon...)

JonLeibowitz

(6,282 posts)
101. I hope he is here (as well as *there*), posting without the TWM just to screw with us.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 10:55 PM
Dec 2015

Manny is a good one.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
8. Those fees go to charity
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:24 PM
Dec 2015

This attempt to paint Hillary as someone who does not care about America and only wants to get her friends richer is absurd. It's fictional. It's trying to convince others not to vote for Bernie, but just to hate Hillary.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
18. Hilarious!
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:38 PM
Dec 2015

First of all only speaking fees from universities go to charity.

And what charity would that happen to be?

"All of the fees have been donated to the Clinton Foundation for it to continue its life-changing and life-saving work," she told ABC News. "So it goes from a foundation at a university to another foundation."


CBS NEWS July 4, 2014, 3:22 PM
Hillary Clinton: All my college speaking fees go to charity

treestar

(82,383 posts)
20. what is wrong with the Clinton foundation?
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:40 PM
Dec 2015

Do you have some fictional issues made up about it, too?

We would only have to pay the President's salary not the speaking fees.

The charges of future corruption are stupid. There's no proof whatsoever that these people get anything they want because they paid HRC to speak. That was a contract, they felt having her speak was worth it. Speech done, payment made. That's all there is too it.

There is no reason to assume they would get some nefarious undue influence.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
77. Aside from the fact that 85% of donations go to "overhead" which means PAY DAY..
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 09:01 PM
Dec 2015

..for the Execs, it is about on parity with the other rip off "Charities" in the USA.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
26. Do You Recognize the Term "Quid Pro Quo?
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:54 PM
Dec 2015

Again I refer this writer to #9 of the 14 Characteristics that define a FASCIST State....

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

treestar

(82,383 posts)
52. The speech was given in exchange for the money
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:43 PM
Dec 2015

there's nothing left.

You imply that means she would support things they want. That would probably be impossible as the different donors would have different goals.

You've created this fictional "corrupt" Clinton who does things not because she thinks they are best for America, but just to aggrandize herself. There's no reason to think that is true of her any more than of anyone else who runs for office. In fact, running for office shows you are less greedy than not, as the financial rewards for it aren't as great as they are for someone that smart and educated out in the capitalist system.

It's trying to tar her with it by repetition.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
53. If people want to buy your book
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:43 PM
Dec 2015

you will make money from that. Write a book that people want to read.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
72. But of course. When Newt Gingrich wrote a book, Rupert Murdock was willing to
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:31 PM
Dec 2015

buy a train car full. Murdock of course was thankful that The Newt pulled strings making it possible for him to get citizenship which allowed him to buy American media outlets. Book selling is a very clever way for wealthy individuals and corporations to give money to politicians. In any case, she is a member of the 1% and even though she sometimes mentions that she wants to help the 99%, she will do nothing that will cost her 1% friends a dime.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
22. She is so like all of us poor schmucks, uh?
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:49 PM
Dec 2015
Half of Hillary Clinton’s Speaking Fees Came From Groups Also Lobbying Congress
TIME May 19, 2015

Hillary Clinton is dirty on this speaking fees issue ... it will come back like a vengeance to haunt her if she somehow gets the Party's presidential nomination.

For me it is very much about stopping Hillary Clinton from taking the Democratic Party even deeper into the banker/Wall Street/corporate/MIC cesspool.

By comparison, Sen. Sander is much, much better -- he has been a fighter for poor, working and middle class Americans for decades. He hasn't become a millionaire by being in office. You bet that matters for the soul of the Democratic Party.

CorporatistNation

(2,546 posts)
27. Senator Sanders "An Unblemished FIFTY YEAR RECORD Of Working On Behalf of Average Folks"
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 06:57 PM
Dec 2015

The empirical comparison of Clinton vs Sanders is stark.

 

Duval

(4,280 posts)
40. And her "just stop it" to the banks really caused them to take notice. (sarcasm) The
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:29 PM
Dec 2015

banks continued doing their little tricks and I've seen the Stock Market showing unhealthy signs. If we have another 2008, I'm thinking the Dems will be blamed for it, especially by the right leaning MSM.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
66. Sander didnt have a grown up job until 40's. I'm sure all us po schmucks were allowed that prilivege
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:14 PM
Dec 2015

redstateblues

(10,565 posts)
56. That will be small change compared to
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:53 PM
Dec 2015

Bernie's soon to be announced middle class tax plan- He's going to give us some numbers isn't he?

 

NYCButterfinger

(755 posts)
58. I don't know if America can afford Sanders
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 07:56 PM
Dec 2015

He's like Santa Claus, offering free stuff without paying for it and explaining what would happen. Yes, raise taxes on the rich, but are you going to slash the military? What will America's role in the world look like?

AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
59. You sound like a Republican
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:04 PM
Dec 2015

That was a talking point used by Republicans to attack the Democratic Party debates.

byronius

(7,398 posts)
68. Yeahhhh, that's not going to fly either.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:20 PM
Dec 2015

I don't agree with the OP's take, but Bernie's been pretty clear about everything, in detail. His per-transaction Wall Street tax is inarguably a good idea. I don't think he's going to slash the military; I think he'll go after the incredibly counter-productive gravy-train crap that goes on in the military. Really, he's awesome.

So is Hillary. I'll vote for either in the general.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
60. She is an extremely accomplished woman.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:04 PM
Dec 2015

Arguably one of the most recognizable world figures. Clinton also speaks for free all of the time.

Right wing sexist bullshit. Very selective list of speaking engagements. That is the deception in your attempt to cover up the whole picture. Clinton is successful. No denying that. Clinton is accomplished. No denying that. Your chart is so selective considering the hundreds of speeches she has given. That is how unrepresentative of her speaking engagements you are being here.

earthside

(6,960 posts)
76. Always "sexist".
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 09:00 PM
Dec 2015

Gotta get that in there, uh?

Even when it has nothing to do with what anybody is talking about here.

We are talking here about privilege, about a 'public servant' who cashes-in ... we criticizes Republicans who do this, too.
It's not the Sanders partisans who are being hypocritical here, it is the liberal, "let's be for the common folks" Hillary supporters who condemn this kind of behavior in Republican elites, but who now find Bill's and Hillary's accomplishments and 'success' as marvelous money-making opportunities.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
90. "She is an extremely accomplished woman." Lots of people are.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 10:24 PM
Dec 2015

And BTW, what does 'accomplished' mean?
"Clinton is successful." So what? What does successful mean?
"Clinton is accomplished." You said that already
Ok.. list other speeches she has given and to whom and for how much..

SEXIST?? What does her sex have to do with anything mentioned? Nothing.

Hekate

(90,768 posts)
64. Once again, it is clear that to some, Democrats should wear sackcloth and ashes...
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:09 PM
Dec 2015

Only saints vowed to poverty need apply.

byronius

(7,398 posts)
67. Yeah, I'm proud of her.
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 08:16 PM
Dec 2015

What a comeback, under incredible pressure, with grace, in the face of white-hot flames.

I have no problem with her success.

106. Right after leaving the White House "dead broke",
Thu Dec 24, 2015, 11:44 PM
Dec 2015

Last edited Fri Dec 25, 2015, 11:37 AM - Edit history (1)

they moved to a ritzy residential area in New York State.

LiberalArkie

(15,727 posts)
122. If she wins, how much will the State of the Union speech cost the tax payers?
Fri Dec 25, 2015, 08:09 PM
Dec 2015

Will we also have to pay for press conferences or will the news media pick up the tab?

Latest Discussions»Retired Forums»2016 Postmortem»We literally can't afford...