Is Helen Mirren right about date rape?

[seabeyond]

Dame Helen's contention was that a woman who voluntarily ended up in a man's bedroom and engaged in sexual activity – but then said no to intercourse – could not seriously expect to take that man to court on a charge of rape if he ignored her last-minute insistence that she did not want full sex. That had happened to her "a couple of times" 40 years ago when she was a budding actress. She had not reported the incidents to police because "you couldn't do that in those days". And perhaps, she suggested, that was not such a bad thing. Such views violate the current orthodoxy that, when it comes to sexual consent, no means no. Women's groups and anti-rape campaigners were infuriated by the 63-year-old's views, which, they insist, hark back to a mindset that transferred the blame for rape from the rapist to the victim, by suggesting that what a woman wears, or how she behaves, can in someway mitigate the culpability of the man who violates her. It is back to the subliminal "she was asking for it" defence.

*

But Mr Graef himself came in for some fierce criticism earlier this month when, 25 years on, he made a follow-up film for Panorama. He found that specially trained officers now treat women with a sensitivity unheard of before his previous film. But he also discovered that the conviction rate for rape was even lower than it was two decades ago. Only 5 per cent of reported rapes in Britain now end in a successful prosecution – one of the lowest conviction rates in the developed world. A key determinant, Mr Graef concluded, was today's "ladette culture" in which young women routinely drink to excess. Where victims of rape have been drinking, the chances of conviction are seriously lowered. Defence barristers who can no longer raise questions in court about the victim's "provocative" clothes, or her previous history of sexual liaisons, can raise questions about the amount of alcohol she has consumed – and introduce CCTV footage of the woman in a drunken state.

*

Those who have made the journey from this old paradigm of semiotic complexity and sexual confusion to the more black-and-white view that all non-consensual sex is a crime are angered by those such as Dame Helen who refuse to make the same journey. And, like so many illiberal liberals in modern political debate, they are intolerant of those who do not conform to their new orthodoxy. But there are still clearly issues here which have not been resolved. One of the great fears about rape is that it will be perpetrated by a stranger but the vast majority of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim. Likewise, fears about the spiking of drinks are often disproportionate to the true risks; date-rape drugs are rarely detected in tests on rape victims – the figure is as low as 2 per cent according to one British study.

*

Ann Widdecombe, Conservative MP

"Dame Helen is absolutely right. This is sheer common sense prevailing. Of course if a woman goes back to a man's room she has responsibility for her actions. Of course she should accept that she has got herself into that position. What's she asking for? A cup of tea? If we say to women that you can go as far as you like with a man but once you don't like it then you can go running to the law, well then we are offering them a false comfort. I think Dame Helen is absolutely correct. We can't simply say that women have no responsibility whatsoever: to do that is to treat us like complete idiots."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/is-helen-mirren-right-about-date-rape-915788.html#access_token=AAADWQ6323IoBANzlCZBBoE8qKZBm7PC7t8ZAZCKuLj3d7jTsGfx6SkQlpnPLrDbaWXSjnPi9pqh1UJQkhBsvmtA13JfhcWYY9mYVSUXlMxXO2pvk2D6j&expires_in=4972
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so, no going to a mans room? does that include a house or apt? sittin on the couch? women should no longer be able to go to a mans residents without accepting the consequence of rape as their responsibility? how about sitting alone in a car with the man? then are we responsible for our rape because we are alone, in his property?

this is part of the whole, controlling women, i have seen over the years. i am reading people wanting to keep this in one political party. it is not. it is across the board. women being boxed in a number of ways. and it is becoming successful. each and every little baby step that we allow.

people say lighten up. it is all the damn lighten up that is allowing this to move forward and it is effecting us in many ways.

it is the continued conditioning of simple disrespect for women.

THE CLAIM Men’s rights activists often insist that men are victimized by sex crimes and abuse just as much as women are, if not more. This assertion is meant to support their contention that the courts and laws outrageously favor women.

THE REALITY A major 2010 study by the Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control thoroughly debunks such claims. Nearly one in five American women (18.3%), the study found, have been raped; the comparable number for men is one in 71 (1.4%). Not only that, but more than half (51.1%) of female victims reported that their rapist was an intimate partner — a current or former spouse or boyfriend, or a date. According to a 2000 study by the Department of Justice, female rape victims were also about twice as likely as male rape victims to be injured during an assault (31.5% versus 16.5%), even though many women do not physically resist their attackers for fear of injury. Overall, the studies found, most violence of all kinds against women (64%) came from current or former intimate partners, while that is true for only about one-sixth (16.2%) of men. Women were also far more likely to be stalked than men (16.2% versus 5.2%), and two-thirds of women’s stalkers (66.2%) were current or former intimate partners, compared to four in 10 for men (41.4%). A 2005 Department of Justice study also found that between 1998 and 2002, 84% of spousal abuse victims were female, as were 86% of victims of abuse at the hands of a dating partner. Males made up 83% of all spouse murderers and 75% of dating partner murderers.

THE CLAIM Close to half or even more of the sexual assaults reported by women never occurred. Versions of this claim are a mainstay of sites like Register-Her.com, which specializes in vilifying women who allegedly lie about being raped. Such claims are also sometimes made by men involved in court custody battles.

THE REALITY This claim, which has gained some credence in recent years, is largely based on a 1994 article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior by Eugene Kanin that found that 41% of rape allegations in his study were “false.” But Kanin’s methodology has been widely criticized, and his results do not accord with most other findings. Kanin researched only one unnamed Midwestern town, and he did not spell out the criteria police used to decide an allegation was false. The town also polygraphed or threatened to polygraph all alleged victims, a now-discredited practice that is known to cause many women to drop their complaint even when it is true. In fact, most studies that suggest high rates of false accusations make a key mistake — equating reports described by police as “unfounded” with those that are false. The truth is that unfounded reports very often include those for which no corroborating evidence could be found or where the victim was deemed an unreliable witness (often because of drug or alcohol use or because of prior sexual contact with the attacker). They also include those cases where women recant their accusations, often because of a fear of reprisal, a distrust of the legal system or embarrassment because drugs or alcohol were involved. The best studies, where the rape allegations have been studied in detail, suggest a rate of false reports of somewhere between 2% and 10%. The most comprehensive study, conducted by the British Home Office in 2005, found a rate of 2.5% for false accusations of rape. The best U.S. investigation, the 2008 “Making a Difference” study, found a 6.8% rate.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

over half of rape claims are false. i have read mra state that up to 75%. just could not find this. the internet allows this to grow. without facts. but it convinces people.

[redqueen]

1. IMO, no. She is very, very wrong.

As are the MRA's and conservative politicians who claim that women routinely lie about rape as a 'strategy'.

We have no problem calling out rightwingers when they play fast and loose with facts to pretend there's some voter fraud issue worth getting worked up about. (voting machines, though, different story) We should be as quick and as thorough in dismissing this kind of crap.

[seabeyond]

2. there is not the selfish reward for so many, we will not have it called out. that is not the agenda.

and it is not only rw.

[gollygee]

3. She is 100% wrong

It has to be hard to be raped and then have to continue having a working/other sort of relationship with people, and I'm sure people can try to rationalize it to make it easier to be around the person afterward.

[MadrasT]

4. Completely wrong.

And I find it frightening and disturing to hear women jump on the "she was asking for it" bandwagon.

No means no. It doesn't matter at what point in the "process" a person decides to say "no".

A woman does not "owe" anybody sex, ever.

[ismnotwasm]

5. No

Whats this insistence on treating male sexuality as though its some kind of uncontrollable animal? Men are grown ass adults. I wouldn't like it either, if on the verge of orgasm, my partner stopped and changed his mind, but I wouldn't go into a violent frenzy, forcing him to continue. And I'm not talking about the presence of an erection.

Plus there dozens of reasons to change your mind; I've done it, my partner wasn't happy but he didn't rape me. In fact he listened to me afterwards and then left.

This is so dumbass and stupid, any attempt to force a women into sexual activity is rape..why is that so hard to understand?

[redqueen]

6. Because society treats male sexuality like some mythical god...

Unquestionable, sacrosanct, and the be-all-end-all of sexuality itself.

Note to lurkers that I said *society*, not 'every person ever who ever lived anywhere, and CERTAINLY all the men on DU, no question'. I hope the distinction is clear enough.

[ismnotwasm]

7. You have something there

In fact, that is an excellent way to think about it.

[One_Life_To_Give]

8. Depends upon who is sitting on the Jury

Trigger alert.

He said/She said trial. Involving human interactions where non-verbal communication can be a large part of the conversation. Asking a panel of 12 to determine there is no possibility that a reasonable person might have "thought" the victim was giving consent. Only the victim herself knows for sure is she was, and only the perpetrator knowing if he did.

A jury in New York and one in Kansas City may view the same circumstances differently. Certainly age plays a role as well. The non-verbal messages associated with various actions were different 40yrs ago than they are today and they are different depending upon culture. In 1972 if Helen crawled into some guys bed naked the Jury might have assumed that was consent as far as any reasonable man should be concerned. today may be a little better, but the current conviction rate speaks to how easy it is to cast a cloud over and distort what happened into a view the jury may not find so convincing.

[redqueen]

9. Yes means yes. It really is that simple.

http://projectunbreakable.tumblr.com/

[caseymoz]

10. Last first:

My opinion:

MRA's are delusional about 50-75% of rape charges being false. Nothing can account for that except extreme distrust of women. I estimate that 1-2% of rapes are false. (That's based on the percentage prevalence of mental illness in women, including personality disorders, including drug use. Also adding in a few "normal," but criminal women who might do it for blackmail or other purpose.) Maybe about 3% more are due to signals being misunderstood or mis-communicated where the guy sincerely believes she gave consent, (but he should have made sure it was absolutely clear before he carried on). And there's a percentage point or two in which consent is given for one sex act, but not for another, but in that case, he's just being a douche bag. (An Assange.) In those last two scenarios, the accused are guilty to some extent.

To me, that's maybe 5-7% of the cases in which the accused could honestly believe she gave consent but changed her mind retroactively. That's still only about 1-2% where that truly happened that way. Cases where she accuses him due to her having second thoughts or to hide it from her SO are covered under mental illness. No mentally healthy woman does that.

I don't know anything about Britain, but in the US, there is a legal barrier to getting convictions for "date" rape. It frequently comes down to her word against his whether the sex was consensual or not.

This is where the old principle of convicting only when guilt is determined "beyond a reasonable doubt" comes in. If one juror has reasonable doubt about her version, the jury's hung. If all of them have some doubt considered "reasonable" the accuses is acquitted. Knowing this, prosecutors aren't likely to bring a case to court if non-consent is even questionable. Defense attorneys also approach rape cases by attacking it on the issue of consent. This is why the woman's sexual history gets dragged out. Behind the statement, "She was asking for it," is the belief that "She likely said 'Yes.' Or he believed she was." (The accused perceptions become important with motive.)

Problem is, if the public perceives that women frequently lie about rape, like 50-75% of the time, which is slanderous, of course they're going to be more likely to question a female accuser's version of events.

Other than counter that belief, I don't know how to convict more rapists other than weaken the principle of convicting only when guilt is "beyond a reasonable doubt."

[seabeyond]

11. you pretty much hit it. for a person to take the step reporting a rape alone give it weight.

FBI reports consistently put the number of "unfounded" rape accusations around 8%. The average rate of unfounded reports for Index crimes is 2%. However, "unfounded" is not synonymous with false allegation. Bruce Gross of the Forensic Examiner's says that:

This statistic is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, "unfounded." That is, a report of rape might be classified as unfounded (rather than as forcible rape) if the alleged victim did not try to fight off the suspect, if the alleged perpetrator did not use physical force or a weapon of some sort, if the alleged victim did not sustain any physical injuries, or if the alleged victim and the accused had a prior sexual relationship. Similarly, a report might be deemed unfounded if there is no physical evidence or too many inconsistencies between the accuser's statement and what evidence does exist. As such, although some unfounded cases of rape may be false or fabricated, not all unfounded cases are false.

The largest and most rigorous study was commissioned by the British Home Office and based on 2,643 sexual assault cases (Kelly, Lovett, and Regan, 2005). Of these, 8% were classified by the police department as false reports. Yet the researchers noted that some of these classifications were based simply on the personal judgments of the police investigators and were made in violation of official criteria for establishing a false allegation. Closer analysis of this category applying the Home Office counting rules for establishing a false allegation and excluding cases where the application of the cases where confirmation of the designation was uncertain reduced the percentage of false reports to 3%. The researchers concluded that "one cannot take all police designations at face value" and that "here is an over-estimation of the scale of false allegations by both police officers and prosecutors." Moreover, they added:

The interviews with police officers and complainants’ responses show that despite the focus on victim care, a culture of suspicion remains within the police, even amongst some of those who are specialists in rape investigations. There is also a tendency to conflate false allegations with retractions and withdrawals, as if in all such cases no sexual assault occurred. This reproduces an investigative culture in which elements that might permit a designation of a false complaint are emphasised (later sections reveal how this also feeds into withdrawals and designation of ‘insufficient evidence’), at the expense of a careful investigation, in which the evidence collected is evaluated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

[caseymoz]

13. Possible reason for the over-estimate.

So many rapists get acquitted on the issue of consent. That's the story the public sees. And after the trial, who's motivated to keep telling their side of the story? The accuser, for whom coming forward was painful to begin with, and who is now stained as a false accuser, or the former accused, who has a victory to talk about? The stories you'll hear most often are going to automatically be about false accusation.

[seabeyond]

14. no. i do not think so. they think it is wrong to make date rape illegal. they say it is the

excitement of the dating dance, not rape.

[caseymoz]

15. First I heard of this.

Who says this? Besides (recently) admitted rapists on some board?

If that's the source, by the way, I haven't read them. Maybe for research some day.

I don't think it's a matter of making date-rape illegal. I mean, sex without consent is already illegal. As I said, I think it's a matter of the issue of consent being undetermined, and therefore, the accused can't be ruled guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I guess the test of my theory would be if date-rapes are somehow caught surveillance, would the jury then convict? It's one thing if they acquit when it's her word against his, and all they could prove is sex, and perhaps rough sex, took place. It's another thing if a jury could see and hear exactly what transpired, and it's clear cut, but the jury still doesn't convict.

That's going to happen someday soon, if it hasn't already, and it's going to happen more than once.

[seabeyond]

16. "Before we called it date rape ... we called it 'exciting'." Warren Farrell.

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?11,95569,95569

Valid research puts the estimated false rape reporting rate at 41%

Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims.

* 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion.
*94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09.
* Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates,
* 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It’s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/mission-and-values/about/

3. Does your PUA or MRA group use language like “target”, “prey”, “attack” or other language that suggests an enemy?
4. Does your PUA or MRA group teach you that women are agressors toward you or that women are denying you things you automatically deserve from them?
7. Does your group verbally debase women and does this enhance the group’s and individual group members’ self-image, as well as their group status?
10. Does your group encourage you to have personal contact with women that empowers and fulfills a need to have dominance over them? Does your group teach you that women WANT you to dominate them? Does your group teach you that “real men dominate women”? (Please consider that this is incorrect information, because it is). Does your group teach you to use concepts such as ASD and LRM which can easily get you convicted of sexual assault?

http://gameovernow.wordpress.com/how-many-pua-and-mra-groups-resemble-cults-and-hate-groups/

[caseymoz]

18. Sick and psychotic.

Last edited Mon Aug 27, 2012, 09:29 AM - Edit history (2)

I had no idea these guys were lying or imagining this much. Next are they going to tell us that women are in the majority of barroom brawls?

Really, the world would look so different if any of that shit were true. I'm just thinking:

-Incest wouldn't be taboo, wouldn't be shocking.

-Men would be a lot more cautious about women, and they would have to get drunk to feel safe about sex.

-300,000 rapes per year in prison is an impossibly high number. One out of six (male) inmates? I mean, these guys are guarded, kept behind bars and punished for misbehavior, but they still find time and opportunity to commit that many? If it were happening at that rate, prisons would be closed because they'd look too much like Sodom and Gomorrah and Christians would be afraid of he Lord's wrath just by having them. If they were that prevalent, we'd find another way to punish people. Outside of prison, about 211,000 cases of rape took place in 2006, outside of prison.

I'd say prison rapes in this country are a tenth of that, and probably not even nearly that high. If that sounds low, the rate of rape in the general population is about 1 in 1000 per year. So, 1 in 70 per year would be about 12 times the rate in the general population. Enough to keep the prison population terrorized.

I can't think why people accept fantastical numbers without any question. I can't be the only one who can take a bullshit, fanastical stat and figure out how the world would look if it were real.

[whathehell]

12. Dame Helen is a GREAT actress, IMO, but she harbors some strange attitudes towards women and sexism

and some other things. If you've ever seen the "Butcher the Thief and his Lover" might know what

I'm talking about.

I saw her on SNL, and I was actually embarrassed and offended FOR her...She doesn't seem to be

much of a feminist.

[PassingFair]

17. Helen Mirren is dead WRONG about this. But I don't know Helen Mirren.

Maybe she's wrong about a lot of things.

[MineralMan]

19. She's completely wrong about that.

No means no and stop means stop. It is that simple. There is no point in a sexual encounter where that ceases to be true. No point. In fact, "I'm uncomfortable with this" means stop, too. Complete and active mutual consent is the only actual consent.