History of Feminism
Related: About this forumPornography is more popular in red states. Why is that?
The idea pushed so often is that it's sexually repressed people who are anti-porn, but I don't think that's true. I think it isn't just one group, but by so often repeating the fact that many feminists are anti porn and one of them testified before congress about her ideas, these noisy few people dishonestly attempt to claim that anti porn feminists are somheow in cahoots with the religious right. How utterly disingenuous is that? It's laughable, but we see it often.
Anyway, back to my point, pornography is more popular in red states. I can understand that people who don't give a damn about the hardships in someone else's life would have no issues with exploiting those situations, with taking full advantage of the situation for their own personal pleasure... but progressives I expect more from. Progressives are also less sexually repressed. IMO, this explains why pornography is less in demand in blue states.
We have seen a number of conventional wisdom type beliefs disproven in in the past few years. This one needs to go, too.
Reposting these here because they deserve to be seen:
FarPoint
(12,372 posts)Say one thing do another is standard protocol. Family secrets run rampant with the arrogant, male dominate family culture.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)States with more forward thinking people, if pornography was really was as popular with people on both sides of the aisle, would be equally popular. But it is less popular in blue states. Whether or not porn users are honest about their use is neither here or there.
It would be nice if people were honest and up front about it, though. It is quite hard on women whose partners aren't honest about it, once they discover their partner has no issues with using porn.
FarPoint
(12,372 posts)Ended up sending him to Sierra Tucson Treatment Center....it helped for about 3-4 years...then back into the porn. She divorced him too.
Now this fella was from Ohio....
Response to redqueen (Reply #3)
condoleeza This message was self-deleted by its author.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Porn is the dominat bandwidth consumer and is credited for demonstrating the market for tape/DVD rentals...it is one hell of an economic force. However, it very hard to quantify who is consuming it where.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Google is your friend.
Here's one write up of one study: http://jezebel.com/5162086/red-state-citizens-consume-the-most-online-porn-in-the-usa
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Funny how the style of discussion is so similar...
I thought I recognized your name. Enjoy your day.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)If that is your best reference, then you might want to rethink your post. Edelman acknowledged the serious limitations of his study due to the paucity of data. The bandwidth/ISP industry has no such stats since it is not possible to collect them.
Anecdotal data is fine, if you acknowledge it as such, like road side surveys
redqueen
(115,103 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)add-ons on my browser don't work. You know what a cookie is?
It's almost impossible to completely hide anything that happens on the internet. They can count whatever they want. Click trails are HUGE business.
Maybe I misunderstand your point. It appears surprisingly naive.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Point of fact, I don't care which states watches what, but the source of the stats is of interest.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)That would be the progressive and professorial thing to do: foster discussion in an interested, respectful manner.
Drive by disdain and gratuitous contempt are neither.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Which is why I asked...it did seem to upset Red Queen and her post was far from liberal/progressive/respectful.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)If you're relying on a group or individual study--and apparently you are--scholarly discussion expects links to sources. Or peer reviewed journals? Those would be valid.
An interest in upsetting redqueen doesn't seem scholarly to me.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)The changes over the years are interesting. Who is using what, the rise of the mobile units, and the like.
Edelman acknowledged his limitations, which is the fair thing to do. Pointing out hypocrisy of red staters is always fun, its its appropriate to cite at least some token source, something RQ did retroactively on edit.
I have no interest in upsetting Red Queen but then again, I don't care if I do either. Your comment about poor behavior IMNSHO should have been pointed in her direction.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)It's only internet etiquette, you know.
I mean, if you're going to name drop, I'd be interested in reading fair research.
Among the colleagues I know/have known, those I respected loved knowledge and learning and shared it kindly, with students and peers. Never gloating (and trying to walk it back). Their behavior is very different than yours.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)all kinds of sources
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Which is nice but far from authoritative and was published in early 2009 with the research done previously
I was hoping the OP had some valid data...apparently not
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)I have read the stats in other places but do not have the sources in front of me
so disprove it if you can .........
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Edelman admitted that many providers did not responded to his query, but published what he had with appropriate caveats.
RQ's post is an assertion without proof and without any references...the claim could just as well have been that rings of Saturn are made of colored marshmallows.
I was asking to see if there was newer or more authoritative data out there...apparently not and its offensive to ask.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)when our porn lovers argues their need of porn.
i thought the sequential reasoning pretty obvious.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)thru the country side and all the many places along the highway with flashing lights ect....
it is about the disrespect and subjugation of women.
we have driven all over the u.s. and driving west or northeast, we did not have the same thing.
rightsideout
(978 posts)So from what some of you say, there is more porn in Red States. What's interesting is that alot of these people still voted for Romney who was intent on installing Porn Filters on new computers.
Not sure why these people continue to vote against their own self interests. LOL.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lovers to run around with hair on fire when this was suggested. a parent can filter out the porn, from their childrens view.
wow. so bad. really bad. how dare they. allow a person an option to not view porn.
really?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The problem becomes requiring those tools to be installed everywhere by law.
ISPs are free to offer filtering as a value-add, and all sorts of software developers are free to sell their products to people who want filtering. But we shouldn't require everyone to buy filtering.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)parents to be able to restrict internet access. surely you advocate children not being able to get into these adult sites?
doesnt hurt a damn thing. there is no argument for it. but still, we hear a whine like anyone is being deprived. more concerned with god knows, than a parent able to do their job a little easier blocking kids a=or allowing adults the access to define the puter more.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That's the point I'm trying to make - you are requiring I buy something like "NetNanny" which is trivial to get around.
When my kid's old enough to use the Internet, there will be much more effective control of her Internet connection. What I object to is being forced to buy something that I will just turn off so that you can feel better.
Sure, as long as you ignore the actual argument.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)We're talking about software being pushed to protect children that does not work, and you want government to force us to buy it.
That doesn't sound like a very good idea - first for improving the software, and 2nd all the people who will think they are protected when they are not.
It's a little like forcing everyone to buy a Ford Pinto and ignoring the fires they cause.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and this is your argument.
cant help the kids be restricted from an adult environment. oh no. fuck the kids, you are so much more important. though it does not even really effect you. jsut a simple fuck the kids, for not apparent reason.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)If the Gubbermint forces us to buy it to make it easier for parents to restrict access, that's baaaad. Really really baaaaaaad.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i never understood the argument. once i found out no one was being forced to do without their porn. all the outrage at these suggestions, i didnt read up on what the argument was.
pretty damn stupid.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)as long as it claims to fight evil porn.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i have even less now that i get what the whine is all about.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)I've been consistently saying that the software does not work. It can not work.
It relies on a blacklist. Which will always be out of date - brand-new porn sites show up every day and the software maker doesn't know about them. Also, damn near anyone can set up a proxy to relay content from blocked sites. So even a theoretically perfect blacklist can't get the job done.
The only way to effectively block porn on the Internet is a whitelist, and maintaining a whitelist of the entire Internet is not possible - there's too much on the Internet. That's why there keeps being mini-scandals over what schools and libraries declare porn (ie. breast cancer information).
You can do it for a kid when they're young enough to only go to disney.com and the like. But as soon as they hit double-digits isn't not going to work - there's too much they should be able to see.
Not to mention government-mandated whitelist you are installing on every computer is a Republican's wet dream for censorship.
aletier_v
(1,773 posts)Amen, brother!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)From a review of the documentary Hardcore:
And this. This may get this post deleted, but apparently text descriptions aren't enough. I ask any jury who is called on to hide this post to please consider that the images are blurred, and that it is not posted for shock value or for prurient reasons.
And no, I don't care if she's religious. Her religious beliefs have nothing to do with the widespread abuse in the sex industry.
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)This is nothing like the porn I saw my freshman year in college, nothing.
I don't care about any fucking studies, you cannot convince me that young (mostly) men watching this on a regular basis are not impacted by it. This is degrading & dehumanizing women for sexual gratification & entertainment. If this is what they enjoy when they are alone with their porn, how are they going to feel in a situation with a real woman who does not want to be slapped, choked with a penis & called a toilet whore?
This is disgusting trash.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)they are talking about, what is out there, what our boys are watching. and when we go to tell them, they cover their ears adn say they do not want to hear, as they defend porn, saying it is no big deal.
patrice
(47,992 posts)so they would have indulged in porn and, because they are Liberals, outgrew it and moved on.
That pattern describes me. I shared porn with my first husband several decades ago. If you asked me about it, I would have expressed some concerns about becoming dependent on anything, but would have formed my conclusions about porn as free speech on old stuff that is completely ir-relevant compared to what is actually out there.
I think this is by very far characteristic of greatest majority Liberal attitudes about porn, TTE, "Not my thing, but . . . ." based upon non-representative evidence.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)truly delving into what the issues are. the response is totally different, once explaining what exactly our children are feeding on.
patrice
(47,992 posts)Their kids were there of course and I noted how changed the oldest of my grand nephews is since he has just become an early teen.
Talk migrated to school, church, soccer etc. etc. etc. These sophisticated worldly young women are QUITE alarmed by the child- and youth- culture that they are encountering in and around Cupcake Land.
Out of control. Paranoid. Mean. Strange. Hostile. Those and other like were words that they used and we're talking about younger than just the teen bracket here.
We Boomers and at least the generation under us, should be quite concerned about who is making the social-level decisions about our old age.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the validation of that video. they will ignore and pretend they never saw it.
pretty woman, wrapped in a pretty little bow.
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)cute little videos to put us in our place. Honestly, DU3 sucks.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)randr
(12,412 posts)Sorry it is the first thing to pop into my mind.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)When being told porn is "satanic" and "evil" over and over again, porn becomes a more dangerous, exciting thing for men to look at, making it more likely they will use porn.
I have no problem with people using porn. It's not an issue that really effects me or one I really think about, and I think as long as the people in the movie were legally able to agree to be in it, then there's nothing really wrong with it.
It ought to be mentioned, though, that the biggest hypocrites scream the loudest. I can only imagine the mega-stash that the far-right religious nutters have. Their hard drives are probably begging to be put out of their misery right now.
And before someone misinterprets, I'm not calling anyone on DU a hypocrite or arguing that feminists are linked to the religious right. The two aren't even close to being the same. Feminists argue against porn due to the effects they perceive that it has not only on women, but also on society as a whole. The religious right argues against porn from a stuffy patriarchal point of view (basically using the logic that women should be protected because they're inferior to men. This is complete opposite to what every feminist believes).
patrice
(47,992 posts)people who have come together to live there are authoritarians, i.e. persons who prefer/need mostly external locii of control, then the power of physical interaction between a man and a woman, caused by an external factor, could also ergo be seen as yet another power, another form of control, and under the right circumstance, more often than not, resented and feared.
If any of that is valid, such persons would seek some way of distancing themselves from the power/control source, especially when said source is as unpredictable as their mutual misunderstandings make them to be.
Pornography could provide a safe, or at least uncomplicated, substitute for the real thing if the real thing, women, cause you not only fear and resentment, but also trouble your whole externalized authoritarian world-view.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)saying that they cannot do an american woman. no control? speaks out? ahhhhh
men, stating, they cannot handle an american woman.
what is that saying, that they cannot do a real woman, need the submission to get off, thru porn.
like the japanese men with their women pillows, cause they think sex with a real woman "icky".
sigh
sigmasix
(794 posts)I am repeatedly amazed by the sweeping generalizations and appeals to emotional reactions amongst those that have a knee-jerk reaction to the stuff they call porn.
When the people fighting "porn" start to take the female version of male-objectifying-porn just as seriously, and condem all consumers of modern romance trash novels and their media equivilences that objectify men as non-human paycheck providers and social, as well as sexual, playthings and status inflators, I'll be willing to have a discussion with them. The modern romance novel industry and it's many media spin-offs represents an evil, insidious influence on our society that empowers women to treat men as objects for molding towards some sort of female-fantasy- an object that forever offers a standard of behavior, economic blandishments and sexual perfomance that dehumanizes men and trains women to view us as penises with lucrative jobs and social status conferees that are always there to do as they are told by the female definition of manliness and masculinity. Why is it that female purient desires and sexual bigotry is never recognized as a problem? So sexually explicit media somehow "hurts" people, but only the media that appeals to males. Where have I heard this point of view expressed before? hmmm.
Women objectify men and damage the universal self-image of men through their preferred form of objectification- yet we are left to deal with the damage to our relationships, family and children- with out so much as an "I'm sorry" from the anti-porn activists that claim they are just trying to help families and others objectified by the media that they have arbitrarily decided to be the prime culprit in causing so much destruction to women and families, while ignoring this very real problem. But when intelligent, honest individuals and studies point to the devious and damaging intention behind the female porn of choice, we are roundly laughed at and pronounced as mysogonists, thus cutting off any really substantive discussions about the subject.
Women objectify men as sex objects and unrealistic security providers all the time- they just prefer the written description of the male's destruction as an individual, instead of explicit film or pictures of the abuse.
When the porn warriors are offended, they claim the offensive material is damging to everyone in our society. Why do these offendees think that this is a one-way street that only admits thier particular pet social issue?
I think Mr. Zappa had some things to say to the porn worriors- but then he has been accused of being a producer of porn as well (art or porn, what's the difference, as long as someone gets to tell thier fellow Americans what images they can see and produce)- because everyone knows that picutures, videos and the written word hurts just like a knife. (um sarcasm)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)those stories you call female porn is no more than a pg or r rated movie told.
it has been a ridiculous argument that has gained weight to dismiss the porn industry.
that is why it is laughed at.
btw... if you want to have a discussion on the misrepresentation of a certain type man being of value because of wallet, i am all for that. but that issue has nothing to do with porn. either your version of female porn in stories, or porn....
sigmasix
(794 posts)Thank you for making my point by disregarding the opinion about, and concept of, female porn- I think it took 10 seconds for your knee to jerk enough to write your response. But plenty of time to do open minded research and inquiry about the subject, huh?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i read everything. and have read plenty of what you would catagorize as female porn. it isnt. it is no more than a pg or r rated movie. story told. yet, you want a longer discussion about it.
they cannot even decide today what makes a romance novel or a mystery novel. there is hardly difference, or no difference in the stories being told. randomly putting one arthor in one category, and another elsewhere because of gender.
i can read a koontz, child, sanford and has more sex in it than any of the "romance" novel that you knee jerk call women porn.
what is the point? do you read the books? do you have a clue what youa re talking about?
how is it different from sleeping in seattle? is that women porn also? or is it womens porn if it is a story told, written in words?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Therefore, violence in porn doesn't exist.
Or, my 'collection' wasn't a representative sample.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that the porn back in the day is not the same as the porn today.
wtf does that have to do with anything.
i read books in the past, i read them presently. i am aware of both, but i do not get what your argument is. though, i am sure you feel you have a gotcha moment here.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)In this particular sub-thread, you are claiming female-directed porn is PG or R. Sure, the poster you responded to was discussing romance novels, but you started talking about "female porn industry".
That your small group may not be representative of the whole. Also known as "anecdote is not data".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)response.
what is "knee jerk" about saying i do not get where your argument is?
oh, wait.... no knee jerk. you just wanted to use knee jerk on me even though it made no sense.
and as i already pointed out below. your argument fails since the poster i replied to used "The modern romance novel industry" as FEMALE PORN.
so, maybe you ought to quit being so knee jerk in your arguments and actually pay attention to what is being said, instead of making shit up.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the knee jerk accusations and bullshit.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and the only response is to bring up romance novels and 'gold diggers'... I really don't think there's any point in attempting to have a conversation.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Not that that makes it any better--quite the contrary.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Yet you appear to not have actually read the "female porn" which you defend here, and just happily dismiss it as tame. I've stumbled across plenty of "female porn" on the internet that is plenty extreme. So either I hallucinated the contents of a few usenet archives, or your collection isn't as exhaustive as you think.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)this poster used this definition. this is what i responded to.
problem?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If you wanted to restrict the subject to romance novels, why did you broaden the subject?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hence, people laughing at his argument.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Your post implied that you were referring to all female porn, at least as I read it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Enjoy your day.
sigmasix
(794 posts)The standards are always shifting when it comes to the porn warriors and the damage caused by thier chosen media interest. So when a woman claims to be the target of purient media and dehumanizing standards, we ought to listen to what she has to say- but should a man have the same complaints about the same media-imposed personal destruction, his complaints and the media's relationship to the creation of the atmosphere that makes his objectification possible, should be criticized and wholly disregarded as a dishonest appraisal of the situation. Not because of any proof offered in defense of the stance of porn warriors, but because, as a group, they are so darn sure they are right. Feminist criticism is a unique and powerful tool that enables humanity to widen our scope of intellectual inquiry. Like other forms of criticism, it is not the only one out there, nor does it have a corner on the market of truth. You disregard the objectification of men through female porn at your own peril; no one will be willing to advance charity in thought or deed towards your viewpoint if you continue to trivialize the damage to families and society caused by the objectification of either sex through each sex's chosen form of "porn".
This notion that women are somehow morally distinct from men in character and intention is sexist and derogatory. I thought the goal was mutual respect, not maintaining a seperate sect.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Nobody said that women are "somehow morally distinct from men in character and intention"... that's just a sad attempt to distract and derail the discussion.
And feminists have all had it up to our eyeballs with that bullshit.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)in a submissive role. as if you do not believe their is a patriarchy. or sexism and misogyny.
it seems as if you would like to neuter any womens discussion and focus it on all people.
this is a feminist forum. and though there are enough on the board that like to pretend women no longer have an issue, those in this forum KNOW better. actually, i believe that others are well in the know, they just do not care. they like how it is with continued privilege and continually putting women in a demeaning role, telling them to shut up, let the menz explain to them about womens issues.
not gonna happen here.
we have one little corner where we speak out about WOMENS issues.
as long as women are continually reduced to subservient roles without authority or voice, i really am not jumping into a battle that MEN should be addressing and focusing on. instead of demanding that i do their work for them.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)It's entirely based on one company's list of customers who pay for online porn - not every porn company out there (and there are a lot). It also doesn't include people who get their porn for free (which, really, is easy nowadays). Moreover, the logistics of the study don't hold up. Utah is #1 in porn viewing, which leads many to assume that Mormons love their porn. Except Idaho, which has the 2nd largest Mormon population in the country, is near the bottom - and a red state. There is no rhyme or reason to the rankings.
Also, the difference between each state is very small. The study says Utah has 1.69 porn subscribers per 1,000 people. Connecticut, which is a pretty blue state, is 1.01 - .68% less than Utah.
Finally, the study ignores that most states on the bottom-end of the list are red states:
Idaho, Montana, Georgia, South Carolina, Wyoming, and Indiana all make up the bottom-part of the list.
But again, the difference we're looking at is small. So, the study is nothing to make a claim around.
Beyond all this, Men's Health listed a study of the 100 smuttiest cities in America and the top-ten are:
1. Orlando, FL
2. Las Vegas, NV
3. Wilmington, DE
4. Raleigh, NC
5. Charlotte, NC
6. Minneapolis, MN
7. Atlanta, GA
8. Tampa, FL
9. Anchorage, AK
10. Austin, TX
Las Vegas, Wilmington, Charlotte, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and Austin are all Democratic-leaning cities.
The last 100?
91. Norfolk, VA
92. Fargo, ND
93. Lincoln, NE
94. Toledo, OH
95. Laredo, TX
96. Lubbock, TX
97. Charleston, WV
98. Winston-Salem, NC
99. Baton Rouge, LA
100. Jackson, MS
All pretty conservative.
So, sorry, I just don't buy this claim. I think you'll find porn is evenly distributed across this country.
Oh yeah - and SLC? The capital of the supposed capital of porn? 71st out of 100.
http://www.menshealth.com/health/smut-census
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Sorry, not buying the Mens Health 'study'.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)sigmasix
(794 posts)of course women have been dealing with all of these issues- anyone that would claim otherwise is just in denial over the true state of the world. The facts of the problems that are faced by women, caused by patriarchal arrangements and suppositions within our culture does not relieve the feminist school of thought of it's obligation to truth and egalitarian remedies to our cultural unfairness and bigoted targeting of the "other". Sometimes the "other" being targeted is not the politically convenient under-represented demographic. I realize that my take on this is not a popular one with my fellow feminists, but I feel it is of utmost importance to make sure that the hypocrisy of this particular position be pointed out. A political or social notion that relegates men"s objectification by women; through the use of women's chosen mode of "porn", as at best a laughable inconsequentiality, should be explored and called-out as a weakness on the part of modern, personality-driven feminist criticism. I am very sure there are those that will claim that I am not a feminist or that I am being dishonest in my inquiry, and to them I only ask "why are you so determined in your claim that women do not objectify men or use media that succeeds in the objectification of men?". Does anyone really believe that women are somehow morally immune to this very human immoral condition?
Instead of attacking me out of hand, why not deal with the question? Intellectual activity and moral reasoning never hurt anyone.
If you want to be taken seriously about the damage caused by the objectification of humans by our media and culture, then you ought to show at least a modicum of concern for the damage caused to the other 50% of the human population. The type of behavior that relegates an entire gender's complaints to inconsequential nothings, is the same behavior and attitude that feminism was supposed to be an antidote for.
Punishing groups of people by ignoring thier very real complaints and troubles does not engender charity or future positive relationships, but it sure FEELS good, huh?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seriously?
you want to talk about the real issues men face in the patriarchy? we are happy to.
why do you not actually discuss anything that is addressed to you instead of starting another post?
TOO OFTEN, consistently, on du we talk about womens issues and a man jumps in and says, .... what about the menzzz.....
we watched our national party throw us under the bus for years until just recently they saw they could get our vote and actually stand with women.
on du alone, we watch the administration protect the lbgt community and no on dares to be a racist, but continually throw us under the bus. dismissing our issues.
telling us, really there is no problem, really, cause look, men have the same issues. and THAT is sexist also.
when generally, almost always it is men doing the trashing of themselves.
yet feminist are held to be responsible for mens behavior with their own gender. we are suppose to put our issues aside and fight their battle.
what is the menz issue you want us to get all over?
Skittles
(153,160 posts)yes INDEED
redqueen
(115,103 posts)If you want to start a discussion about how men are so poorly treated by whatever, start it.
Coming into a discussion about one subject (almost always about feminist issues, but sometimes race issues as well) and bringing up other subjects (what about the men? what about white people?) is whataboutery.
It is a sadly, extremely common tactic used to try to disrupt discussions of certain issues.
It doesn't work in places where people are on to the game. Give it up.
CrispyQ
(36,464 posts)We certainly do recognize that the media objectifies all humans at times & we acknowledge that it has a negative impact on our boys & men. If you read some more in this forum, you will find threads where we discuss good men's predicament in the patriarchy. However, there is no way one can claim that men are objectified to the same degree as women. No way. To come into a feminist forum & imply we are as bad as the misogynists because our discussions center around women & how women are impacted by the patriarchy, is insulting.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Well said.
sigmasix
(794 posts)My point- and I believe i have made it- is that you are more likely to generate solutions to problems if you are able to have an inquiry that incorporates all of the instances and sources of the problem.
This is American pragmatism in action.
The OP is suggesting that there are a couple things at play in the discussion about pornography as it related to political demographics within the United States. One of the points made was that "porn" was somehow the responsibility of the male gender of the human race and is used exclusively by men in the attempt to deny humanity and intrinsic value and importance to women. I understand that some feminists believe this to be true, but there certainly isn't a 100% agreement about this. And there certainly is not a 100% agreement on what sorts of things are pornographic. Feminist criticism includes more than just "Lady Issues", and by restricting your membership and self identification you are denying yourself an opportunity to learn and understand other points of view.
Disagreement is an invariable portion of any social group, but with-holding respect and charity from an individual question or suggestion is not disagreement, it's bullying.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Nope. Women use it too. It's used simply to get off more easily, without having to overly tax one's brain by using one's own imagination.
The oppression and dehumanization are a side effect, and SOME consider them to be rather important, you know, in addition to the whole rape and abuse on set thing.
Please, stop.
sigmasix
(794 posts)What is happening here has more to do with some sort of button I must have pushed for you in my original reply to the OP-
If someone posts an OP with the intent of inflaming deeply held personal preconceptions about "Red States'" morality versus "Blue States'" morality, visa-a-vi pornography ownership and viewing, you can expect some sort of reactions that might set you off iff you are an emotional proponent of the view that porn viewership indicates moral short-comings.
Please accept my apologies for pushing your buttons- but don't you think you ought to grow a thicker skin about this subject? Understand, I am in no way stipulating that you are correct in any of your strident declarations as to my character or my intentions. I believe they have been very clear; I disagree with you about the unimportance of the damage caused to men by the romance novel industry and it's many media outlets. I also disagree with many mainstream men that posit the notion that pornography does no damage. My original reply was to an inflammatory post that challenges all DUers to question what we are doing here if we are just going to go around conflating silly numbers like pornography use and positing political maxims from the conflation.
It's fun, but it's what the teabaggers do for entertainment too.
I hope that DU can grow beyond it and people that think that they should be able to tell others to stop posting- I will when I believe my point is made. I have violated no TOU and never will.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It seems to be more provoking of defensive kneejerking and deflecting... but I suppose that's to be expected, considering the state of things.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Which I'm finding I shouldn't do on my iPad. There is a wealth of information on pornography. Too much to go into, but I can find peer reviewed stats. Too tired tonight, just got in. This does NOT answer your question, it's merely food for thought
Michael Uebel
The new fantasmic dimensions of cyberpornography are my focus in this essay. It is my contention that, as the media of mass-circulating porn are changing, as bits and binary codes replace glossy centerfolds, fantasy is being activated in novel ways. Cyberspace is installing a new regime of sexual representation and, with it, tactical modes of dreaming, thinking, and acting. The pornographic image, more than ever, occupies the interspace bridging private fantasy and mass public disposition.7 As the Web becomes increasingly constructed as the imaginary reference point of the public, we begin to recognize our own desires as they are re-presented to us in the media senssuround. "Even. . . the most perverse among us," Michael Warner observes in another context, "could point to his or her desires or identifications and see that they were public desires, even mass public desires, from the moment that they were our desires."8 Yet at the same time that we observe our desires (pre)scripted in and by the grand historical metatext of late technocapitalism, we are discovering that there are points within the metatext, like cyberporn, which hold the promise of strategic resistance.9
Cyberporn, more aggressively than other contemporary mass-public languages (advertising, network news, Hollywood film), translates subjective desires and fantasies into objective, often unstable, "published dreams."10 This translation into objectivity of the pornographic imaginary is a crucial aspect of its productive cultural function. If conceiving the desires cyberporn produces as separable from the scripts, the enunciated laws, such porn calls into existence, is impossible, then we do well to follow Foucault in replacing the strict "law and sovereignty" of sex with an open "technology of sex," a multiple, positive technology of desire.11 Such a positive technology of desire opens the possibility of directing our attention to the specific ways the postmodern apparatus of cyberporn produces, rather than just regulates or prohibits, desires. Although Clinton and Congress, law enforcement, the press (witness its singular obsession with "child porn"12 ), conservative public-interest organizations, and certain professionals in the health industry continue to frame their discussion and assessment of cyberporn in terms of control and interdiction,13 I want here to establish a counterdiscourse of sorts, one informed by Deleuze and Guattari's formulations of desire as a machinic and, we shall see, potentially masochistic production in order to ground a new approach to cyberbodies, especially those offered up for pornographic consumption.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/theory_and_event/v003/3.4uebel.html
Not sure this will link, but its certainly an interesting analysis
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)What it's basically saying is those who consume a lot of porn are psychological masochists. And why.
sigmasix
(794 posts)The whole paper isnt there but the little I was able to access sounds (reads?) interesting. The conjecture is that cyber porn has become a different sort of creature than pornographic magazines and movies, and that creature needs to be looked at in new ways that incorporate criticism from thinkers and researchers that represent the application of the post modern paradigm. The function of cyber porn is re-examined in light of newer notions from linguistics, psychology and philosophy.
Essentially the paper is stating that cyberporn is an insiduous negative agent within our culture that will continue to attract and twist new consumers in ways we have never seen before. The paper also has some things to say about the social effects of cyber porn.
It certainly seems like a well researched paper and the evidence for the conclusions alluded to seems very fair.
I wonder how America should go about fixing this problem while retaining respect for, and integrity in, our freedom of speech. This is something that requires honesty and civility from all interested parties if we are ever going to make a real difference. My original response was extremely unhelpful in this endeavor and I appologize for it. I am still convinced that there are very real issues about this subject that need to be examined in a way that goes deeper than inflammatory OPs that conflate political party affiliation with cyber porn usage and susceptibility. Men do in-fact suffer from female created media norms and objectifiction, and any complete examination of the real life effects of cyber porn and media objectification will include studies and conjectural hypotheses that articulate and attempt to explain this fact.
If you are able to find the entire paper could you post a link to it? Very engrossing.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)I'll go back and see if I can find a better way to do it, since much of it was there, it may have been how I did it.
I thought it very interesting indeed, I was looking for a quicker read but I was hooked after a couple of paragraphs. The idea that cyber-porn creates fantasy, instead of negating fantasy as Mckinnan thought early on, only not healthy fantasy but a type of masochistic paradigms on the side of the performer and viewer is fascinating, and makes sense. I'd go so far to say it also explains a few things.
sigmasix
(794 posts)This paper points out that cyber porn actually participates in the creation of it's own consumers and further twists the consumer towards a deeply unhealthy re-enforcement of the fantasy ideation. The relationship of the porn consumer to cyber porn is not a "normal", or classic media relationship; the way cyber porn works has nothing to do with healthy human sexual curiosity and fantasy play, rather the conjecture is (and I agree) that cyber porn participates in it's own creation and ideation, re-enforcing an escalating consumption and the notion that the unhealthy aspects of the relationship is normal and functional. Danerous stuff, cyber porn. I'm looking forward to continued discussions about this issue and am hopeful that DU members like yourself and redqueen can point me in the right direction for further education about cutting edge research into this new human-created monster. Thank you once again for this link- it opened my eyes to a subject I quit studying 15 years ago due to short-comings in our understanding about the relationship of emotionally charged media to human behavior and linguistic archetypes. You really can teach an old dog new tricks! I'll be looking for more studies of this type and will share what I find with DUers in the feminist discussion group. I hope that people are able to understand that this isn't just a feminist issue, but an American health and media scourge issue as well. I wonder if Faux "news" uses the same sort of approach in the dissemination of it's lies and hyperbole. Highly emotionally charged fantasy worlds that require continued escalation of toxicity to the individual's socialization skills and relationships with individuals, deemed by the faux news consumer as "weak" or the "other", is what has been happening on that channel for over a decade.
Once again- thanks to the OP and to you for this scholarly article.
Glarb! I love DU.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Yup.
I'm glad you enjoyed it .