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ismnotwasm

(41,968 posts)
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:01 PM Aug 2013

Of course all men don’t hate women. But all men must know they benefit from sexism

This is going to hurt. In the past few months, it has been almost impossible to open a newspaper or turn on a television without encountering a story about another underage girl being raped, another female politician harassed, another trans woman murdered. But as women, girls and a growing number of male allies start speaking out against sexism and injustice, a curious thing is happening: some people are complaining that speaking about prejudice is itself a form of prejudice.

These days, before we talk about misogyny, women are increasingly being asked to modify our language so we don’t hurt men’s feelings. Don’t say, “Men oppress women” – that’s sexism, as bad as any sexism women ever have to handle, possibly worse. Instead, say, “Some men oppress women.” Whatever you do, don’t generalise. That’s something men do. Not all men – just somemen.

This type of semantic squabbling is a very effective way of getting women to shut up. After all, most of us grew up learning that being a good girl was all about putting other people’s feelings ahead of our own. We aren’t supposed to say what we think if there’s a chance it might upset somebody else or, worse, make them angry. So we stifle our speech with apologies, caveats and soothing sounds. We reassure our friends and loved ones that “you’re not one of those men who hate women”.

What we don’t say is: of course not all men hate women. But culture hates women, so men who grow up in a sexist culture have a tendency to do and say sexist things, often without meaning to. We aren’t judging you for who you are but that doesn’t mean we’re not asking you to change your behaviour. What you feel about women in your heart is of less immediate importance than how you treat them on a daily basis.


http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/laurie-penny/men-sexism
52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Of course all men don’t hate women. But all men must know they benefit from sexism (Original Post) ismnotwasm Aug 2013 OP
I think it should hurt our feelings. There's a group of us who don't give a Fuck about women Arcanetrance Aug 2013 #1
Silliest thing I've read in a long time.... Swamp Lover Aug 2013 #2
of course not. you are right and EVERYONE else is wrong. right... seabeyond Aug 2013 #3
Yes. Exactly the point of my post. Swamp Lover Aug 2013 #6
wavin' seabeyond Aug 2013 #7
Hey!!! Good to see you!!!! Squinch Aug 2013 #16
ah, .... you good people that stayed all summer and fought the good fight seabeyond Aug 2013 #25
It's good to have you back among us, but I could certainly see why you needed some time. Squinch Aug 2013 #47
Welcome back! GeoWilliam750 Aug 2013 #23
geo, my man..... seabeyond Aug 2013 #26
Welcome back! Dash87 Aug 2013 #17
I just wanted to let you know that this is my signature. seabeyond Aug 2013 #27
No it's not, it's mine! Dash87 Aug 2013 #48
lol. touche. nt seabeyond Aug 2013 #49
I had to check the date of your post. CrispyQ Aug 2013 #21
funny. huh?. lol. i hear you. i somehow was on a thread seabeyond Aug 2013 #28
You're kidding. ismnotwasm Aug 2013 #9
How precisely did you arrive at the conclusion that... LanternWaste Aug 2013 #12
And what is your data from which "most" is asserted..... Swamp Lover Aug 2013 #19
I made no assertions. I merely asked you questions which remain unanswered... LanternWaste Aug 2013 #24
hugzzzz.... seabeyond Aug 2013 #29
Your anecdotal evidence does not invalidate anything expressed in this article. n/t MadrasT Aug 2013 #14
It is not sexism. One cannot be sexist against men. It is impossible. redqueen Aug 2013 #4
Word up sister ismnotwasm Aug 2013 #11
! redqueen Aug 2013 #18
Yes. Men benefit greatly by abusive sexist behaviors. It is such a wonderful thing to geckosfeet Aug 2013 #5
yes. they do. now.... seabeyond Aug 2013 #8
hello there!!! boston bean Aug 2013 #13
hell there backatcha. seabeyond Aug 2013 #30
did he go off to college? boston bean Aug 2013 #32
a week ago. ahhhh.... so cute on the one hand and exciting and so seabeyond Aug 2013 #36
I had a real hard time through November, then just sort of got use to it. boston bean Aug 2013 #41
i stil have another around. for three years. he has never gotten to shine. seabeyond Aug 2013 #42
I had only one child, so no one there left to fill the void. boston bean Aug 2013 #45
i get that. i can so see that. and allowed another three years will give me the time seabeyond Aug 2013 #46
Bet your laundry reduced by 90%! :) Little Star Aug 2013 #35
oh... and laundry also. this is the kid that went thru 3 shirts a day. lol. seabeyond Aug 2013 #37
Bet he often took 2 or 3 showers a day also (towels). I recall those days well!... Little Star Aug 2013 #43
$$$$ water bills. hubby and i were just talking about that yesterday. water bill gonna drop. nt seabeyond Aug 2013 #44
I hope you're not saying Bay Boy Aug 2013 #51
yes. i have been doing his laundry. and he has been pulling high grades in honors seabeyond Aug 2013 #52
Glad to see you sea. DURHAM D Aug 2013 #15
always, always.... seabeyond Aug 2013 #31
Hey! Sheldon Cooper Aug 2013 #20
Hey! seabeyond Aug 2013 #33
Sea!!!!!!!!! BainsBane Aug 2013 #22
Bains!!!!!!!!!! seabeyond Aug 2013 #38
+1 TDale313 Aug 2013 #34
=2 seabeyond Aug 2013 #39
Wow I see the news got out ismnotwasm Aug 2013 #10
grinnin seabeyond Aug 2013 #40
Naw ismnotwasm Aug 2013 #50

Arcanetrance

(2,670 posts)
1. I think it should hurt our feelings. There's a group of us who don't give a Fuck about women
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:18 PM
Aug 2013

and they treat them as nothing more than subhuman. A greater truth couldn't be spoken all of us guys benefit good or bad from the patriarchal misogynist culture we live in.

 

Swamp Lover

(431 posts)
2. Silliest thing I've read in a long time....
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:25 PM
Aug 2013

".....After all, most of us grew up learning that being a good girl was all about putting other people’s feelings ahead of our own. We aren’t supposed to say what we think if there’s a chance it might upset somebody else or, worse, make them angry. So we stifle our speech with apologies, caveats and soothing sounds."

Not the way my sisters were raised in the home I was raised in, and God help the man, woman, or child who might try to stifle my mother, sisters, daughter or granddaughter!

I don't claim to know how the poster was raised but it was by no means universal.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
7. wavin'
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:59 PM
Aug 2013

i am being especially welcoming and NICE with trivial, today. can't promise you anything about tomorrow, though.

CrispyQ

(36,424 posts)
21. I had to check the date of your post.
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 05:57 PM
Aug 2013

I thought, "This must be an old thread that popped to the top."

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
28. funny. huh?. lol. i hear you. i somehow was on a thread
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:58 AM
Aug 2013

through googlin' something with lac. he was tos'ed a while ago. confused me all over the place.

was in you neck of the woods a couple weeks ago. ahhhh, your country feels so good.

ismnotwasm

(41,968 posts)
9. You're kidding.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 02:08 PM
Aug 2013

I learned to yell "fuck you" and give the finger to asshole sexists but I wasn't raised that way.

I learned that male desire wasn't some supreme complement-- but I wasn't raised that way.

I learned that no matter how tough I acted, or was, no matter what protections I took, it didn't protect me from rape-- but I wasn't raised that way.

I learned that my sexuality is nobody's else's business, that 'slut' is bullshit term tossed out by men and women at those women who didn't fit into their narrow boundaries; that society never allow me, a woman that grace of sexual agency

I could go on and on.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
12. How precisely did you arrive at the conclusion that...
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 04:53 PM
Aug 2013

"After all, most of us grew up..." and
"Not the way my sisters were raised in the home I was raised in...


How precisely did you arrive at the conclusion that your own personal anecdotal experience is equivalent to "most"? Additionally, how precisely do you arrive at "universal" from "most"?



If it helps... "universal" and "most" are two different words. 'Most' means in the majority of instances (allowing for personal and anecdotal stories, alleged or not) to remain viable, whilst 'Universal' means pertaining to all or to the whole, and applicable in every instance.

Maybe you can see that conflating the two words is pretty much where your premise falls apart, and looks rather (to borrow from your learned lexicon) "silly" when stated as such.

 

Swamp Lover

(431 posts)
19. And what is your data from which "most" is asserted.....
Sat Aug 17, 2013, 08:33 AM
Aug 2013

....or is it an anecdotal device imagined to allow the poster to believe a personal weakness is shared by others?

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
24. I made no assertions. I merely asked you questions which remain unanswered...
Sun Aug 18, 2013, 08:02 PM
Aug 2013

I made no assertions. I merely asked you questions which remain unanswered...

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
4. It is not sexism. One cannot be sexist against men. It is impossible.
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:44 PM
Aug 2013

Sexism is rooted in the systemic, socially acceptable, institutionalized oppression of women.

It is possible to be prejudiced against men. One can be rude, discriminatory, etc. against men, but one CANNOT be sexist toward them.

Similarly, it is impossible to be racist towards white people. This stuff truly just isn't that complicated. It's sociology 101, really.

geckosfeet

(9,644 posts)
5. Yes. Men benefit greatly by abusive sexist behaviors. It is such a wonderful thing to
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 01:48 PM
Aug 2013

hear about rapes, molestation and discrimination. The social benefit for men is incalcuable.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
8. yes. they do. now....
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 02:06 PM
Aug 2013

you might want to be open minded enough to educate yourself exactly how and why it works that way instead of thinking you are funny.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
30. hell there backatcha.
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:00 AM
Aug 2013

still really really busy. i sent a son away....

my cleaning has reduced by 80%. . am i bad for recognizing and appreciating that?

boston bean

(36,219 posts)
32. did he go off to college?
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:02 AM
Aug 2013

Mine was in his first year last year. I know the feeling. It's gets better, though.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
36. a week ago. ahhhh.... so cute on the one hand and exciting and so
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:07 AM
Aug 2013

sad on the other. a chapter closed and a new begins. i am not a typical "empty nest" mama though. which i did not expect i would be. i am really doing good and ok with it all.but, good to know.

i did not know you just went thru it. thanks.

he registered and moved in early to start cross country practice. he has a woman coach. and man... does she take care of her athletes. so there is that.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
42. i stil have another around. for three years. he has never gotten to shine.
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:13 AM
Aug 2013

the oldest kinda did a really good job over shadowing him. so i am excited to see what develops over the next three years with this one.

boston bean

(36,219 posts)
45. I had only one child, so no one there left to fill the void.
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:16 AM
Aug 2013

Boy, did I miss him. I felt like I was getting old, and watching the world pass by me.

I missed everything, and relived in my mind, the days he was so dependent on mummy!

But like I say, it didn't last that long. Us humans have a penchant to be malleable to conditions of which we have no power.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
46. i get that. i can so see that. and allowed another three years will give me the time
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:33 AM
Aug 2013

to set up my life, so i do not have to experience that empty feel. it is the energy thing.

ya.... agree.

how is he doing in college? kick ass and adjusted?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
37. oh... and laundry also. this is the kid that went thru 3 shirts a day. lol.
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:08 AM
Aug 2013

thanks. and food.

and my youngest has had to step up with interesting conversation to fill older sons shoes. that is a good thing.

Little Star

(17,055 posts)
43. Bet he often took 2 or 3 showers a day also (towels). I recall those days well!...
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:14 AM
Aug 2013

It is a good thing that the younger one has a chance to practice his conversational skills in the front seat, so to say.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
52. yes. i have been doing his laundry. and he has been pulling high grades in honors
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 10:43 PM
Aug 2013

program and AP taking college credit with him to his university, working out twice a day with track and cross country getting a scholarship making the school way affordable for us and working the same part time job, for two years, saving money to pay part of his way while in college.

yes. i did his laundry. and cooked his dinners, sometimes breakfast.

he has certainly held up his end of the deal in all this.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
40. grinnin
Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:11 AM
Aug 2013

i wonder....

if there was an spike in alerts, lol

of course. it would be ALL my fault, for showing up

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