Listen Up, Ladies: Here's Everything Real Men Think Is Wrong With You

[ismnotwasm]

Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 12:19 PM - Edit history (2)

I've been doing some scholarly research, and I noticed this thing that's been really dragging society down for the past few millennia: it's that everything is wrong with you. You are gross. First of all, your hair is gross, because it is not long and thick enough. But don't strap fake hair to your head! That's also gross! Also, what the fuck is up with your skin? It is so dry and scaly like a lizard (but not one of those sexy lizards)! Except uuuuuuugh, do you have to take so long putting on your idiotic woman-lotion? This penis isn't going to fondle itself! CHOP CHOP. Now, I know all this contradictory minutiae regarding your attractiveness can get confusing (especially with your lipstick-encrusted walnut brains!), but luckily, plenty of guys are generous enough to explain what they don't like about you in great detail. Over and over. You're welcome.

For your edification, the good folks over at Yahoo have compiled a list of the "15 Biggest Beauty Turnoffs from Real Guys"—yet another survey of "real guys" to reinforce the precise line of shit we women need to walk to remain attractive to them (it's the least we can do, really). Because that media trope never gets tired. Let's jump in!

If you are looking to attract a man with your fluffy false lashes and your flowing fake mane, it is time to take a different approach. We scouted the truth and discovered the things women do that make men turn the other way. All in all, men love to see the woman underneath the makeup, so ditch the dramatic routine and go natural for once.
First of all, I am neither an empty man-socket nor a fucking venus flytrap. I am not looking to "attract a man." I am just trying to do my stuff and then maybe meet a person who likes me because I am also a person. I didn't want to get all serious right off the bat, BUT SORRY: Women's grueling, lifelong, losing battle to transform themselves into magical, flawless creatures with Disney hair and 15-inch waists and massive ham-lips is not for the benefit of women. And when men say that they "love to see the woman underneath the makeup," they're not saying they want to see your leg stubble and greasy bangs—they're saying they want you to be better at hiding your maintenance routine. Because the maintenance spoils the fantasy.

http://jezebel.com/5936323/listen-up-ladies-heres-everything-real-men-think-is-wrong-with-you

[gollygee]

1. That is the best rant I've read in a while.

I love it.

[safeinOhio]

2. "Real men" equal the kind of men

those "real women" wish they could attract.

By the way, neither are real.

[BainsBane]

3. I actually think women are more critical of their own appearance

and that of other women than men tend to be.

[redqueen]

6. I used to believe that.

Not anymore.

...

But there is one particular strand of this conversation which seems especially worth further investigation. Whether it was in TIME’s twitter feed or in individual’s Facebook posts, many have used some variation of this phrase in relation to the commercial: “women are their own worst critics when it comes to how they look.”

...

First of all, the whole entire world is critical of the way women look. Whether you are a supermodel, a teenager or even Secretary of State, if you’re a female, there are people all around you ready to tell you how bad your body looks. Secondly, the idea that women are valuable only for their beauty permeates nearly every facet of modern society, from the billboards we walk past to the social media we use daily. And this idea that women should be reduced to their appearance originated almost entirely in the minds and actions of men. And it is still largely perpetuated today by men – who run over 90% of our media.

So to say women are their own “worst critics” when it comes to beauty puts the blame on women for a beauty-obsessed, body-shaming and misogynistic world created and maintained largely by dudes.

...

We can all strive to be more confident and to value ourselves more, and clearly that is the intention of this Dove-inspired conversation around women’s self-image and beauty. But it’s not helpful for us to so dramatically overstate the role women play in a negative culture of judgement created and maintained largely by men. In a world where we are all constantly pummeled with images of the hypersexualized hyperfeminine thin female ideal, it is not so surprising that some women have distorted self-images.

So, women are not their own worst critics when it comes to beauty. And instead of saying they are over and over, let’s question the larger cultural environment in which we are all taught – regardless of gender – to value women first for their looks, and second for what they say or do. Let’s also not let those who objectify women, who harass women online and off, or who profit from industries exploiting the beauty ideal, off the hook.

...

http://www.missrepresentation.org/media/women-are-not-their-own-worst-beauty-critics/

[TreasonousBastard]

26. Curiously, you're taking the word here largely of women...

and not getting much input from men about what we think is attractive.

The legendary catcalls from construction workers on Third Avenue, btw, do not reflect the views of most men-- it's just the competition between dumb guys to make the rudest comments.

But, yes, it is looking to a certain standard that gets you Playmate of the Year. And the papparazi do seem to concentrate on plunging necklines and the fan rags will report on the effects of that last donut.

Back in the real world, however, for reasons best known to cultural anthropologists, men and women have always dressed differently. Women have generally been a bit more decorative, although men haven't always been blandly dressed. I believe Greek and Roman women wore makeup, while men didn't. Same with Asians over the centuries. (Someone will no doubt correct me if my history is in error.)

In modern times, nobody really cares what men look like. Women are the focus of fashion and body type. I don't know why, but it is far too pervasive to simply say some male powers on high are calling the shots. All of the fashion magazines and many, if not most, of the fashion houses and cosmetic companies are run by women. With few exceptions now, it's women who decree this year's styles.

To say that one of the top 5 (possibly the second largest) industries in the world ("Making Women Look Good&quot has as its core simply to get men excited is ridiculous. Not only might someone have noticed that men aren't all that particular and women can get sex no matter what they look like, but such an enterprise would have to have not just the tacit acceptance of half the world's population, but its active participation.

Maybe it all started eons ago as getting an edge over the other women to catch the guy everyone wanted, but it's gotten completely out of hand now. And if there is a vestige of that competition left in our genes, it shows in the cattiness and slut shaming you can find in any school-- whether the girls gym or the PTA.

Speaking as a guy-- yes we may notice and appreciate it when you put on the paint, get your hair done, clothe your hot bod in your pushup bra and tight dress and accentuate your great legs with a short skirt and heels...

But that is not why we love you.

(Editing is just spelling and grammar)

[redqueen]

31. Back in the real world, at the link above,

there are comments from men about their wives, girlfriends, or just women in general.

[ismnotwasm]

32. One or two small points

As you point out, There have been plenty periods of history where men self decorated--to standards that would be considered "effeminate" today. To be fair this usually involved elite classes. But there plenty of evidence that the male form was admired, even objectified, over the female form at points of time as well. We know from writings of our greatest philosophers and thinkers that women were considered inferior.

Modesty and virginity became the standard for a desirable wife, women who were not modest or virginal were the equivalent of prostitutes. As women broke through these chains, we found that our sexuality is still commodified.

I think self decoration is an art. It can be a powerful form of self- expression rather than a statement of market place value. I'd like to see women do a little less silly stuff, and men do more. Well meet somewhere in the middle.

And 'getting sex' isn't the point. It's should be GOOD fun mutually respectful sex, not 'this is all I can get' because---I'm too fat, too thin, too tall too short or have a wall eye etc.

[Bay Boy]

4. I love that my wife does 'maintenance' for me

(or herself or whatever) but I don't want to see it happen either.
I like the fantasy of her emerging from the bathroom perfect.

[redqueen]

5. Congratulations.

You have demonstrated all that is annoying about this beauty bullshit.

[Bay Boy]

7. Huh?

What did I say that offended you?

[seabeyond]

14. You know perfectly and no subtly in playing your game.

Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 05:15 PM - Edit history (1)

[Bay Boy]

18. I know nothing...

...and I am too dense to be subtle.
So thanks for not educating me.

[ismnotwasm]

16. And do you emerge a perfect fantasy for your wife?

Fair is fair.

[Bay Boy]

17. I do my part...

...thanks for asking.

[Bay Boy]

20. I make my wife get up an hour before me...

...and put on her make-up, then she can go back to bed and wake up with me when my alarm goes off.
All to fulfill my fantasy.

Is this what you and another poster were thinking I meant?

[redqueen]

23. I can't speak for her...

but I can tell you what it reminded me of.

I used to talk to someone from this site, a guy, as a friend. We exchanged emails, and I thought we were friends. Then one day the issue of differences between male and female beauty regimes comes up, and I mention facial hair, and how it's easy for men because they can shave it, because they don't have to worry about five o'clock shadow. He let it be known that he wished I hadn't said that.

You know what that meant? The end of that friendship. I am a person. A human being with feelings. I don't tolerate people who are careless with those feelings. For people to put their desire for no one to shatter their stupid fucking beauty myth bullshit with women's lived reality is fucked up. We aren't fairy tale creatures and the desire for women to hide the fact that we are human beings too pisses me right the fuck off.

I'm sorry if that's not what you meant. But seriously, while this is said by a conventionally attractive young woman, the sentiment is the same:

[MADem]

8. I think most men could give a shit. They'll go along with whatever's popular.

I mean, look at these racy pictures from the 1890s, these women wouldn't be "in fashion" now but they were the bee's knees 120 years ago:

http://www.walltowatch.com/view/8275/Sexy+Pictures+From+1890



Fast forward to the Twenties; off with the corsets, on with the flapper costumes and racy swimsuits--and the men didn't complain:




Zoom ahead to the fifties, and still, the men went along with the program:

http://blog.playfulpromises.com/blog/2012/10/2/beauty-queens-50s-onwards.html





I think the "fashion industries"--the beauty parlors, the shoe sellers, the clothing designers, the make-up creators, they all have an interest in recycling old looks and making them new again--otherwise, no one would buy new stuff. It's a manufactured reality. People, men and women, are told by Big Business that this is the "desirable look," and the followers just follow along!


http://vintagemakeupguide.com/

I look at the young kids today going back to college, and they're all wearing hats that look a bit like they were designed by a smurf, checked cheap looking sneakers, striped shirts, hoodies, boxy looking ball caps....it's not so much expressing individuality as wearing a uniform to identify with a group. That's what is sold in the name of fashion, too.

We all fell prey to that crap when we were young. Some people never get over it -- and there's nothing sadder than to see some raddled old Larry King type sporting "too young" clothes or Madonna wearing a teeth grille (aaagh--and she did that recently). I guess there's something to that Prince admonition to "act your age not your shoe size..."

IMO, the things that most people--men or women--find attractive in another human being are an air of confidence, a reasonable sense of humor, a modicum of intelligence, and a pleasing -- not necessarily stereotypically attractive--visage. I don't think that changes no matter how much "the media" tries to say otherwise...

[redqueen]

9. This affects girls and young women to a significant degree.

It's easy for you to portray it as just some meaningless phase, but that's because you personally have never had to deal with it.

Have you seen this? You should.

And who do you think runs the industries and the media that pushes these male-gaze-centric, patriarchal beauty ideals, for fun or profit or whatever? Women?

Have you been to the men's group and seen the most popular thread on DU? That's not about confidence and humor - it's about a "pleasing visage" as you put it. These men aren't "going along with the program", they are reinforcing an ideal. An ideal which appeals to the male gaze.

[MADem]

11. Did I suggest -- ever -- that this was "meaningless?"

My only point is that the vast majority of men are not as fussy as some seem to think they are.

They're far more interested in the reproductive imperative.

If fashion never changed from this day forward, they wouldn't give a shit. They would not "demand" new hairstyles, new fashions, short skirts, long dresses, low cut, high cut, pink nail polish, shiny red lipstick, new and different eye shadows, etc. They wouldn't care if there was never another Fashion Week in NY, Milan, London or anywhere, ever again.

Most -- save those who make money off appealing to this wish to decorate oneself in new and different ways -- wouldn't even notice.

Example:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/8015770/Men-dont-notice-women-in-heels.html

Men don't notice women in heels
Women sacrificing comfort to wear high heels could be wasting their time because men do not even notice, a study claims.

I haven't been to the men's group, don't feel like going there.... and I came to this thread from the latest page, thinking it was GD--so this will be my last comment on the topic.

[redqueen]

13. Why are you talking about fashion?

Did you read the actual excerpted comments from actual guys about women in their lives?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. Thank you for posting that video.

I just fell in love with Dustin all over again. The moment he hesitates, he chokes up, he blinks backs the tears. I could just kiss him for that.

"That was never a comedy for me"

I cried.

He gets it.

Brainwashed. yes.

[redqueen]

22. The pleasure is all mine, believe me. nt

[ismnotwasm]

15. You have very valid point

But I'd like to point out--in general-- that men's fashions never get that amount of attention. I'd like to see men do more "maintenance". Because while its ok to try to be attractive to one another-- in whatever form or gender combination it takes-- it's not ok that the burden of societal pressure and costs of it is so unfairly gendered.

[MADem]

19. The playing field is being leveled....! It's a slow process, but it is happening....

"Manscaping" is mandatory for the young, it seems--a 22 year old kid with a nickname of "Sweater Man" isn't going to get a date these days (not that people "date" all that much anymore). Unibrow? Fuggedaboudit! Off to the waxing parlor with you! And no abs? Go to the back of the line!

And who knew? Boys can get anorexia too...

http://dailynightly.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/22/10477185-boys-dying-to-be-thin-the-new-face-of-anorexia?lite

Okemos, Mich.: Susan Barry, 60, spends every day wishing she had known more about male anorexia when her son, TJ Warschefsky, was still alive. He died in 2007 at the age of 22 after an eight-year battle with the disease. His heart gave out in the middle of his nightly routine of 1,000 sit-ups. He weighed 78 pounds.
“He didn’t want to be skinny,” Barry said of TJ, who was a star athlete and straight-A student. “He wanted a six pack, he wanted rock hard abs. That’s how it all started.”

As for fashion, a 19 year old young man can spend a fortune to look like he just crawled out from behind a dumpster--that's the age when those smurf hats, boxy baseball caps that look like something Rodney Dangerfield would like, and overpriced sneakers and foolish "name brand" shirts/tees/gear are "must haves." Who "needs" to spend two hundred dollars for a pair of jeans so tight that they will make a lad sing soprano? And then there's the "bling." Bigass diamond earring--for what? Ostentatious ring! And don't get me started on tattoos as ornamentation, or those ghastly grilles--to me, they don't look good (they look like a rich person who never brushed their teeth!). But hey, that's status! That's how these youngsters make themselves into peacocks to attract the young ladies!

And if they don't HAVE, they don't "fit in." If they don't make enough at the part time job, they hint, wheedle, plead because these silly things elevate their standing.

I'd say males are probably still far less "appearance aware" than females, but they are catching up. And when worries about how one looks affect self-esteem, that is never a good thing for any person --it gets in the way of achievement. A little bit of struttin' yer stuff is natural for teens and early 20s, but after awhile, if there's too much of the "trendy clothes" happening--regardless of gender--it just looks a little silly; kind of embarrassing. A mature person of any gender looks best when they are comfortable in their own skin, IMO.

[ismnotwasm]

10. I remember the first time

My then-husband-to-be told me I was beautiful. Early morning. Rough night, no make up, un-showered, no "maintenance" whatsoever. I hadn't even brushed my teeth. He looks at me right in the eyes and says "God you're beautiful" I didn't understand the compliment back then. He was completely sincere, but he meant more than physical appearance. He meant the whole person. At that point in my life, I hadn't met any men who even thought like that. It seemed to be it was all about the superficial package I presented--make up, dress, figure, style. I wasn't fond of that bullshit, not at all. So I meet this man who 'gets' it-- and he still gets it.

Do I still play dress up now and again? Sure. But I never feel any pressure at all, because that man will look at me after a 12 hour work day, at my emotional and physical worst, and still, after 21 years together he'll say "God you're beautiful" and he's still talking about the whole person.

[MadrasT]

12. THIS

First of all, I am neither an empty man-socket nor a fucking venus flytrap. I am not looking to "attract a man."

So many time I have gone on my "do not give a fuck about how I look" rant and get the "but EVERYBODY wants to be appealing to the 'opposite' sex or to attract mates" spiel

NO I FUCKING DO NOT

and that quote says why perfectly



DO NOT CARE

(And this seems to irritate or confuse a lot of men)

[ismnotwasm]

24. ...

[Jim Lane]

25. Question about a man commenting on a woman’s appearance

My question isn’t about broader issues of patriarchal control, but about my interaction with a specific woman. She and I had had a fairly casual acquaintance when I asked her out on a date. I came to her apartment to pick her up and she was wearing makeup, which she had never done the other times we met.

On the one hand, I definitely got a charge out of the idea that she was sufficiently attracted to me to make that extra effort. (Yes, just her accepting the date should have been enough. It wasn’t – but this post isn’t about my self-confidence problem.) Not only was I pleased by this, but, when someone’s made an effort, it seems courteous to give a compliment. The linked article notwithstanding, I think many women on many occasions like to be told that they look great tonight or that their new hairstyle really suits them or whatever.

On the other hand, I happen to prefer a natural look. I thought this woman had looked better all the other times I’d seen her, when she wasn’t making an effort.

So, I didn’t want to compliment her and make it more likely that she’d keep going this route, but starting off a first date by criticizing her makeup didn’t seem like a good idea either.

What should I have done?

I was going to conclude this post by recounting what I actually did. On reflection, though, I decided it might be more interesting to hear the thoughts of people who are writing on a clean slate.

[ismnotwasm]

28. Yikes

I'd start a non-judgmental conversation about it and so where it goes

Everybody likes compliments, but have you ever noticed how hard it is for people to accept them? I mean simply saying 'thank you' to a complement seems hard for many people.

[Jim Lane]

33. That's pretty much what I did. More detail in my response to BainsBane.

It was easy to be non-judgmental because, as far as I'm concerned, it's a matter of taste. Some people prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla. I prefer vanilla, but I would never be judgmental about the chocolate lovers.

You're right about compliments. For some of us, it depends on what we're being complimented on. If a compliment fits with my self-image, I'm genuinely pleased and I have no trouble smiling and giving a sincere "thank you" in response. OTOH, if someone says something like, "Hey, you look good today," then I'm flustered, because on my really good days I barely make it to average.

[BainsBane]

29. Just say you look nice

You definitely don't tell a woman you prefer her with or without makeup so early on. That would seem controlling. If she wasn't wearing make up when you asked her out, you know she's not a woman who wears it all the time. If you continue to see her, at some point you can mention the fact she looks beautiful without makeup, ideally at some point she isn't wearing any. Do not say I don't want you to wear make up. Again, it's a control issue.

[Dash87]

30. Agreed. It'a definite jerk behavior.

That would be like her saying on the first date, "Hi, that sweater is absolutely hideous by the way!"

It would also be a kind of weird thing to say. I know the poster knew her before hand, but still. It's one of those 'not-yo business!' kind of things.

I guess what bugs me about it is that it's not the poster's decision how she wears her makeup. Who cares? It's more of a personal thing - it would be like demanding she wear her hair a certain way. It's just wrong to me.

[Jim Lane]

34. I think this is an exception to your point about being controlling.

An example from a different first date of mine: We're at dinner, she orders a glass of wine, the waiter turns to me, and I say "Nothing for me, thanks." The woman looks stricken and says, "Was that a faux pas?" I was thinking, wow, are most men or even many men that controlling? I happen to be a teetotaller so you must be also? I guess a lot of them (OK, a lot of us) are that controlling or this woman wouldn't even have thought it was a possibility. For my part, I just can't imagine acting that way.

BUT the makeup thing is different because the circumstances make clear that she's doing it to please me. It's not her independent personal choice, like whether to have wine with dinner. She's taken a guess about what will make her more attractive to me. I'm the only one who knows that she guessed wrong. To me it doesn't feel controlling to give her feedback.

I didn't want to say "You look nice" because I thought that would give her feedback the wrong way. She could reasonably conclude that I thought she looked better with makeup. Worst case, she could glop on some more next time. I look at the last image in the group posted by MADem, the "Vintage Make-up Guides" compilation of four styles, and I see four naturally attractive women who seem to be doing their best to HIDE their beauty. At least they get progressively more natural over time. I didn't want the woman I was seeing to move to the left on that scale.

The problem with your "at some point" solution is that, the longer something like that goes unmentioned, the more awkward I would feel in bringing it up.

On the other hand, I completely agree with your admonition, "Do not say I don't want you to wear make up." That would be truthful (as to my preferences) but the subject has to be handled more tactfully and respectfully than that. What I did was to bring it up either at the end of the date or on the phone when we were planning our second date (can't remember for sure). I said something like, "I noticed that you went to a lot of effort to get made up for our date, and I really appreciated it, and felt flattered that you wanted to look your best. As far as I'm concerned, though, you look great with or without makeup, so whichever way you feel more comfortable is fine with me." In other words, I lied to her, at least somewhat, because I had a definite preference, but I settled for hinting at it rather than voicing it. All worked out well as she didn't wear makeup again.

[BeyondGeography]

27. We need a Martha Argerich School of Beauty

Last edited Mon Aug 26, 2013, 12:55 AM - Edit history (1)

She's 72 and still, ah, what can I say?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/arts/music/albumreviews/article3767056.ece