If You’re Getting Discouraged…

[redqueen]

If you’ve been getting discouraged lately by all the horrible bullshit, and by all the people who want to cover their eyes and pretend the bullshit isn’t real, and by all the people who would rather blame the victims of the bullshit rather than consider the possibility that it might be real… I bring you this comment, recently made by SheerDistaste at The Atheist Experience.

Don’t stop at the first two sentences. Keep reading.

You know what? This whole feminism crap that all of FtB has been going on about ever since that elevator thing pisses me off.

Do you know why it pisses me off?

Because it’s rubbing off on me.

Back when it started here, pretty much all of the articles talking about feminism, harassment at conferences, rape culture, whatever I found to be ridiculous overreactions to inconsequential bullshit.

Then after reading these articles for about a month, eventually 1 in 10 I would say “that’s actually a good point”. Then it was 2 in 10, then 3. As of now it’s about 8/10.

And furthermore, often when I am reading something, or talking to someone, or watching something, etc. completely away from FtB, I’ll find myself thinking “that’s sexist” or “that’s really offensive and degrading to women, I don’t support that at all” – when before I wouldn’t ever have these thoughts. And whenever I get these thoughts I get annoyed because I’m starting to sound like PZ Myers or whoever or one of his flunkies here… yet these things keep popping into my head, more and more frequently!
You guys (and girls) are slowly turning me into a feminist, and that pisses me off a lot.

(emphasis mine)

Dear SheerDistaste,

First of all — thank you. A whole lot of us really needed to hear that right about now.

...

I’m giving myself a pep talk here, as much as I’m giving you one. This has been a shitty, shitty couple of weeks, and a shitty, shitty couple of years, and right now I’m feeling very discouraged and demoralized. So mostly, I want to say “Thank you.” Thank you for being willing to change your mind about something difficult. And thank you for saying this. A whole lot of us really needed to hear it.

And I’m putting out a call for comments. If you became a feminist, or became more of a feminist, because of all the writing and speaking and video-making and podcasting and other work that so many of us have been doing about it? Please say so here. If you’ve been emboldened to speak out more about feminism by other people speaking out? Please say so here. And if you can think of other reasons why you’re happy to know and understand about feminism, despite it often being painful and angry-fying? Please say so here. I think a lot of us could stand to hear it right now. I know I could.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2013/08/16/if-youre-getting-discouraged

“Let’s take the figure of the feminist killjoy seriously. Does the feminist kill other people’s joy by pointing out moments of sexism? Or does she expose the bad feelings that get hidden, displaced, or negated under public signs of joy? Does bad feeling enter the room when somebody expresses anger about things, or could anger be the moment when the bad feelings that circulate through objects gets brought to the surface in a certain way? Feminist subjects might bring others down not only by talking about unhappy topics such as sexism but by exposing how happiness is sustained by erasing the very signs of not getting along. Feminists do kill joy in a certain sense; they disturb the very fantasy that happiness can be found in certain places. To kill a fantasy can still kill a feeling. It is not just that feminists might not be happily affected by the objects that are supposed to cause happiness but that their failure to be happy is read as sabotaging the happiness of others.”

— Sara Ahmed, The Promise of Happiness

[Warpy]

1. I find myself mildly annoyed by all the pronoun police

who are popping out of the woodwork over the Manning story.

Folks, that one really is ambiguous because for the time being, Manning is being forced to stay in bloke mode. Of course people are going to be using male pronouns to refer to someone who looks male. You need to cut civilians a little slack here.

I used to know a lot of drag queens, and got used to female pronouns when they were in drag, male pronouns when they were in civvies. While they used to refer to each other as "she" when not in drag, it was usually when they were saying something sarcastic. It was mildly insulting when they did it, grating when a civilian would.

I hope Manning is able to continue transitioning once parole has been granted. I hope the sentence is reduced to something more sensible so that can happen sooner than 9.5 years from now.

Until then, I'm not going to scream over pronouns used by confused people.

As for the awakening of a lot of women to the existence of the overall patriarchal culture along with the abuses contained within it, it's just more of the same, everything female being treated as being of lesser value. I'm delighted people are waking up to it, it reminds me of the consciousness raising era in the late 60s and early 70s when we were looking at all the discriminatory practices that were much worse then and said "Oh HELL no."

Forcing Manning to stay male is just more of the same. No sane man would ever choose to be a woman considering how badly women are treated by sane men. If they had to decide Manning is insane, they'd have to provide treatment and that would make them realize the sentencing had been too harsh. Yes, it's convoluted, but so is the whole idea of patriarchy when you think about it.

[Bluenorthwest]

2. Wowser.

Chelsea Manning is not a drag queen. And excusing bigoted speech modes once means you need to stick with excusing all of them. If it is acceptable to excuse such language in one case then it is acceptable to excuse it in all cases.

[Warpy]

3. No, of course not.

However, you do need to cut people a little slack for having this sprung on them over someone who still appears male.

Landing on people like this is not acceptable any more than knowingly using the wrong pronoun to insult someone.

[TDale313]

4. It's the "knowingly" part I see as insulting.

Last edited Sun Aug 25, 2013, 06:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Yes, there will be slips and yes, sometimes one doesn't know. But, to me, if you know someone's preferred gender pronoun and choose to reject it cause you don't agree with it or don't like the person, that's insulting. And it's totally appropriate to point that out.

[MadrasT]

10. This group does not now and never has had

"transphobic leanings"

Great efforts were made to try to make that stick and it is utter nonsense

[redqueen]

11. Thank you. nt

[hlthe2b]

12. Yes... we certainly have. I truly regret that that comment was made today...

We encourage thoughtful discussion, but this group has always been focused on equity and respect--certainly for women generally. but no less for every other group who have likewise faced bigotry.

Thank you, MadrasT.

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Here's some stuff to chew on warpy. You let me know how you see these remarks, mmmmkay?

You think maybe after two suicide attempts
in as many months, some people just belong on the other side?
My gay brother-in-law just came out this year and has tried to kill himself twice since June
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023515014

So Who Is Paying For Mannings Change?
Him or the Taxpayers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023517069

[hlthe2b]

13. this is reprehensible, BNW and something this group likewise condemns these attitudes.

Undoubtedly there will be slip-ups as others come to understand the issues around use of pronouns and references on DU and there will be some who will continue to propagate bigotry. But, certainly those who post in this group are sensitive to the issue and dedicated to showing respect, as we would hope others would do so toward all women (and particularly towards those on DU) as well.

[redqueen]

7. sigh

[TDale313]

8. Sorry your post got kinda hijacked.

It was some very thought-provoking and positive stuff.

[redqueen]

9. Thanks. I thought so too.

In case you aren't aware of what prompted her to post that it had been a tough few weeks, there was a lot of shit going down in the atheist / skeptic community earlier this month. Here's a summary if you're at all interested:

http://www.dailygrail.com/Skepticism/2013/8/Is-the-Week-Organized-Skepticism-Imploded

[hlthe2b]

14. I'm sorry too that your thread was derailed. Thanks for posting it, redqueen.

[ismnotwasm]

15. It's happening everywhere

Feminists speaking up and speaking out.

I've been working a hell schedule for the last few days, but feminism is my topic of choice every chance I get.

A young co-worker told me about 'inappropriate' comments. A certain conversation that ended to effect of "I'd chase her but I'm too old"---and what's cool about that? This young women didn't have to think it was just the way things are, that it was in anyway ok, knew that it was in no way a compliment, she recognized it a creepy comment that needed to addressed, one way or the other. We validate that with one another. This shit is not ok, whatever this shit happens to be when it comes to demeaning and objectifying women.

I work on that; my daily experiences as a feminist help me help other women; support, validation, welcoming stories, talking it out, listening to other points of view. Sharing experience, sharing joy, overcoming the pollution of shame that women are subjected to. I'm not very touchy-feely or woo, I'm a assertive, laughing whirlwind of a woman, and I keep my hand held out or the idea that it may need to be to another women in need. Feminists rock.

(And to touch on the sub-thread here, my favorite feminist friend, the one who is most active in the women's movement, the one who is fighting to bring things like the ERA front and center, is transgender. I knew her before, during and after; HER and SHE *are* the most important pronouns in her life--- She's glorious)