Study: Men secretly feel terrible when the women they love succeed

[redqueen]

According to a new study, men experience a blow to their self-esteem when their female partners experience success, even when they aren’t in direct competition. Women’s success also negatively impacts how men view the future of the relationship, researchers found.

“There is an idea that women are allowed to bask in the reflected glory of her male partner and to be the ‘woman behind the successful man,’ but the reverse is not true for men,” says study co-author Kate Ratliff of the University of Florida.

...

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/30/study_men_secretly_feel_terrible_when_the_women_they_love_succeed/

It will be interesting to see the results of any follow-up studies done on this phenomenon. These results are based on five separate experiments, some in the US, some in the Netherlands, and some online. Also, most participants were younger adults.

[kestrel91316]

1. Pobrecitos.

[Squinch]

2. Lots of outrage and panic in the comments section.

[niyad]

3. this society is really doing a poor job of rearing its young, to be this messed up.

[seabeyond]

6. yes. nt

[redqueen]

7. Jackson Katz talks about this problem.

We raise children with this patriarchal mindset, with these constant messages about men and women, and then the real world happens.

[YoungDemCA]

47. Very true.

The patriarchal mindset, as you call it, is damaging to both men and women-in different ways, but there you have it.

And it's quite damaging to society as a whole, as well.

[seabeyond]

4. that goes along the line of needing to continually stroke the mans ego

thru out a marriage/relationship and his absolute inability to do the same for his partner (unless it is her looks/sexuality). it is like he is deserving of that respect/admiration but can not give it to a woman to feel successful. she is without an ego? her ego does not count?

this is something i have been thinking about of late.

[Aerows]

10. I think it is more

raised competitive, feel out-competed. When value is only placed upon a certain margin of success, like money or glamour or whatever you wish to place value upon, instead of value being in healthy relationships with children, spouse and community, you get unhealthy reactions.

What you value becomes who you are, in effect. IMHO.

[seabeyond]

12. very good aarows. another area i was thinking about.

you are so right on.

[Aerows]

13. Just my opinion :)

Glad to see you are still here, Seabeyond. I've been missing you in GD. I can understand taking a step back, though. The atmosphere got ugly for a while.

[seabeyond]

15. yes... it has. and so much more, lol. and

thank you

[ismnotwasm]

5. I was just reading that

It's not really surprising.

[redqueen]

26. Just so you know, I realize it is FAR from surprising.

Thanks for not using some dismissive bullshit comment like "news at 11" to express it.

[Aerows]

8. People raised to be competitive

feel insecure when they are out-competed. News at 11.

[redqueen]

9. "even when they aren’t in direct competition"

I guess what you're saying is that those 'people' (men) somehow imagine themselves to be in competitions with their romantic partners.

Interesting delusion there.

[Aerows]

11. Not really

What you value becomes what you are. If you value a relationship, you seek to keep it. When you value money over everything else, that becomes a breaking point.

When you value status over everything else, that becomes a breaking point, too.

But thanks for putting words in my mouth that I didn't say . And points for calling a difference of opinion a delusion. That really works to create a productive conversation, too.

[seabeyond]

14. i do not think that she was calling your expression a delusion, but that a mate would see

a romantic partner as a competitor.

i was raised ina very competitive family. i was in competitive sport for almost two decades. but, i think the reality is, money, status being more important, or definition of success is the delusion she is referring to.

though, people often live that life. and ruin their life living it.

[Aerows]

17. I am pretty sure exactly what she said and her intended meaning were

and I disagreed with it. Notice that I didn't call her delusional or attempt to get jabs in.

There is a difference, my friend.

But I love you dearly keeping the peace. Thank you for that, SB. Like you, I believe keeping the peace is more fruitful than charging at people with claws drawn the second they disagree with you.

[redqueen]

27. "with claws drawn"... yeah, nothing sexist or misogynist about that at all.

Not at all.

[whopis01]

32. A question

Why do you find that phrase sexist and/or misogynist? I am not arguing whether it is or isn't - I just would never have thought of it that way and am curious about what I am missing there.

[seabeyond]

33. hmmmm, it is ONLY used on women regardless of whether it is a legitimate disagreement to dismiss

and demean a woman making a stand. they use it on hillary when she is in her political role discussing a very serious subject. oh, she got in a cat fight.

it is used as an entertainment for men to gather around to watch the silly women make fools of themselves

unlike the very serious male that is aggressively standing by his opinion or seriously skilled physical violence unto another.

it is used dismissively and demeaningly ONLY for women.

and i cannot believe that you do not get it and i wasted a whole lot of my time.

[whopis01]

36. Sorry - I wasn't trying to piss you off

Or waste your time.

It was a legitimate question. Used the way you describe I would agree with you completely. I honestly had never heard it used in that context (not sure i had ever heard it at all before).

So thanks for the info, and again I wasn't trying to argue with you or waste your time - I was just trying to understand it better.

[seabeyond]

37. Cool, but I hear it often . On du. Mainstream media and almost every pimply faced teenage

Boy movie made for grown men. Cat fight is a favorite with men. You will hear them giggle like.... A bunch of little

Boys.

It is insulting. And used way to often to dismiss what a woman is saying.

I wasn't pissed off. I assumed you already knew the answer cause it is so prevelant in our society, media and the net

[redqueen]

23. Just like when your "huge ass" words were so desperately misinterpreted

in the effort to take offense.

I swear to fucking god this place...

[seabeyond]

38. Ya. The huge ass

Stupid. Uh oh. Five people might actually think I am saying you have a huge ass. Kinda like me saying dial up is a

B*****. I was hidden for calling a very dear friend a b**** and accused of dissing rural people cause they generally were the ones with dial up. I have had many of those hides so when it is suggested to us that it says something about who we are, adm will just have to understand I do not quite believe it.

[seabeyond]

16. thinking further, i also think it is very real that a man is conditioned as the provider

and even when the woman is doing her part or even more than her part, for the male ego to jive with what he is taught, he must continue to see himself as the provider. one has to get outside the box to get beyond that conditioning. it is a very tough thing to do. it is well instilled in us as people from day one.

just like for a woman to truly, in her heart and soul, see her worth not in her looks.

i am not saying it is easy. but, it is freeing once either gender rejects the societal and cultural conditioning.

[Aerows]

18. I agree

It's always difficult to go outside that which our society teaches us, but when many do it, society also evolves.

[seabeyond]

20. i had been running a business when i met my husband. had been for five years.

putting in 60 or more hours a week. what a person does when running a business.

we married adn i had babies and left the work force.

years later, talking about my job running a fuckin business, my husband said.... you worked part time????

when we met i owned my own home, had the new camero, was building my world with antiques and crystal. yet, he reduced all my work and success to ..... part time.

there was a reason for that. i made it clear that no, i was not part time running a business. but then, let it go. but, i could not have the credit of successfully running a business and taking care of myself. that has stayed with me. how we will create illusions for our own personal comfort and stroke to ego.

[redqueen]

22. The delusion is that these men think they're in competition with *their romantic partners*.

When you value money over your partner... apparently this phenomenon is common among young men.

Judging by your fist post in this thread, you think this study is too boring to be worthy of a meaningful comment. If so, then please feel free not to do so.

[Aerows]

24. Feel free to put words in the mouths of others

You can even put them in mine, if you choose, but it still won't be me saying that. I'm not in the mood to argue.

[madamesilverspurs]

19. Saving this to read later.

But I've known far too many men who overtly hate their wives' successes. There's nothing "secret" about their resentment.

[seabeyond]

21. that would also clearly suggest the hate, blazing hate we see toward women today.

and that would take us to their inability to control and dominate. because women are no longer financially dependent and the men cannot he the "hero" of taking care of the woman in his life.

[ismnotwasm]

25. On a personal note

My husband has Multiple Sclerosis. I am the family provider. He takes care of the household, best as he can. And it does bother him, not as in 'competition' but as a affront to his masculinity. We've had many many talks about this. To watch a beloved male partner struggle through this is heart-wrenching.

This shit--brought to you by the patriarchy, and reinforced by misogyny--damages society and causes suffering, like everything else brought to you by patriarchy

[redqueen]

28. "damages society and causes suffering"

Exactly.

Which is why it is crucial to point it out repeatedly, discuss it repeatedly, because that is the ONLY way we are going to change it. Dismissing it with idiotic handwaving nonsense is completely counterproductive. All that does is ensure that it continues. It enables it, supports it, and maintains it.

[ismnotwasm]

30. Since I live with the tangible results of it

I agree completely.

[seabeyond]

34. but, dont we all live with the tangible, if we are even half way perceptive.

i know i do. i know i have battled it for many many years in hoping for more. i know it has not only effected my life, but those i love.

we all are living with the tangible results.

the difference is, many are too fearful to call it what it is so it stays there, ferments, and grows.

[YoungDemCA]

46. Dismissal...or silence

What's the difference? Does it matter?

(Rhetorical questions, btw).

[seabeyond]

29. exactly. adn that is the real crying shame of it all. it may lessen the woman or the need to

lessen the woman, but that is not really where the real harm is. imo. the harm truly comes in what it does to man, his ego, his perception of his masculinity. i agree. so unnecessary, so stupid. and a very real pain.

[ismnotwasm]

31. Men have control of society

There is not one gendered egalitarian society in the world. Which is why feminism is as widespread as it is. That simple fact escapes notice so often it's incredible.

To be fair, there exist societies and cultures that think that's just the way things should be. A 'natural' state of affairs. You'll find all kinds of blatent intolerances in those societies, and I'm not excluded first world capitalist societies from this either.

So whenever the stupid, harmful and hurtful is the overt or covert standard of masculinity, it effects EVERYONE

[Link Speed]

35. Not in our house

GF makes seven-figure income and I fucking love it. I don't care if I never make another dollar on my own.

[ismnotwasm]

39. .

[YoungDemCA]

45. Good on you for being an exception to the rule

Unfortunately, there are far too many who are not like you.

[Scuba]

40. Fools, all of them. I'd love to have a mate who made more than I.

[geek tragedy]

41. Men are conditioned to think this way, that professional success is the primary measure

of their worth as a human being. It's patriarchal thinking, and it can be overcome, but it doesn't get in our heads by accident. Each and every man will tell you that it shouldn't bother them, but in many cases it does. Not because they resent her success, but because they resent (a) their own lack of success as they define it and/or (b) the feeling that society will judge them as less worthy for being less ostensibly successful than their spouse.

It's multiple layers of patriarchy--what is considered success and heightened expectations that a man will be especially judged for not measuring up to it.

[eridani]

42. What about different subsets of men?

My husband had no trouble with my success--it enabled him to be a far pickier freelancer.

[Aerows]

44. I do agree with the conclusion

that women feel free to bask in the glory of a successful man, but that men feel the exact opposite when a woman is successful.

That said, thank the heavens I'm a lesbian and both partners glory in their partner's success. I'm probably a shade wrong in my thinking, but I've seen far more dysfunctional relationships of all varieties than I have seen functional ones, and the homosexual ones I have seen seem to be more stable and equal. Staying together for 40 years while hating each other isn't stable, imho.

It could just be that I gravitate towards stable people like myself, though, so I'm hardly a control and it's hardly a scientific observation.

[YoungDemCA]

48. Perhaps if our society was not structured and based on competition...

Then it would be much less relevant whether or not men (or women, for that matter) made more money than their romantic partners.

[IronLionZion]

49. Quite the opposite happened to me when I had an abusive feminist partner

She made tons more than I did as a $0 income student and definitely did not feel that I deserved to go to school or job interviews. Yes, she actually tried to stop me from registering for courses or going to job interviews that would lead to making anything close to what she got as a university professor. She straight up told me I don't deserve her salary. She wasn't supporting me financially, she just didn't want me to have any success as she feared I would leave her. It was a control and power kind of thing. She was also much older than me. I finally left her after finding out the hard way that she was banging quite a few other young ethnic male students behind my back.

Most of the gender issues discussed may have more to do with masculine and feminine personality traits, rather than physical male and female. We probably all know masculine women and feminine men. And we probably know women who dominate and bully men.

For the record, I always welcome and support success for anyone, whether she's friend, family, or romantic interest.

[Sheldon Cooper]

50. Meh.

Poor you. Take your derailing elsewhere.

[IronLionZion]

52. If someone doesn't want their partner to succeed,

why does gender matter?

[Sheldon Cooper]

54. Because this is the History of Feminism group.

We talk about issues that are important to women. And believe it or not, we don't really want to hear about your 'feminist' girlfriend and how she screwed around on you with 'ethnic' men, whatever that means. Stop derailing the conversation here - there's a Men's group available that you can go complain to.

[IronLionZion]

58. OK. nt

[Shivering Jemmy]

51. I've been a university prof

She couldn't have been making that much.

[IronLionZion]

53. It was mission-critical to her

that I deserved much less.

[IronLionZion]

55. In the spirit of equality,

is it not possible that women may also feel resentment of their partner's success? How about same-sex partners?

I merely stated an example from my personal life where my female partner felt resentment towards my opportunity for success, and actively worked to sabotage it. Jealousy knows no gender.

[seabeyond]

56. until recently, men exclusively made more than women. it is a norm, expected and almost always,

does not cause a problem.

whereas today, women are starting to make more than men. men as a whole, per this study have jealousy issue over a woman making more money. women as a whole do NOT have a jealousy issue over a man making more money.

you dismissing the study and taking it to ALL... both gender, is not correct. the odds are in favor that a woman will be fine with a man making more.

the odds are in favor that a man will have a problem with a woman making more.

this would be an example of derailing a very real issue that women are having to deal with, in a relationship, because of patriarchy.

[IronLionZion]

57. Not disagreeing with anything you said here

and not dismissing the study. Just sharing my story.

Good luck in your fight against patriarchy.

[seabeyond]

59. good to know. i probably agree with you more than not. i think it is important to recognize

that this particular behavior is not equal. though often i would agree it is not gender specific. but, i think history and conditioning clearly explains why it is not. what i did appreciate was this part of your post. i found interesting.

Most of the gender issues discussed may have more to do with masculine and feminine personality traits, rather than physical male and female. We probably all know masculine women and feminine men. And we probably know women who dominate and bully men.

i couldnt agree more. but even more interesting is how we divided up the gender defined traits. and applied to each sex. thru conditioning how so many adopt, though when self reflecting, seeing how so many of the traits are held by the opposite gender.