I really wish admin would take a look at the mens group

[boston bean]

and find out that most of their discussion revolves around pidgeon holing feminists and their absolute disgust for feminism in general by taking far fringe ideology and applying it to mainstream feminism. As if a huge lot of misandrist, feminist separatists, transgender hating feminists are posting here.

I thought the group was to be used to discuss "mens" issues. Not much of that happening there, unless you think women and men who are feminists who fight against sexism/misogyny and for equal rights are a problem for men. Then I guess they are on the right track.... I guess.

ETA this is a progressive/democratic board... why is it feminists have to put up with a group of men who can't stand their existence or views?

[duffyduff]

1. What's next for DU? A "white power" group?

That's how offensive MRA believers are. The SPLC calls MRA groups hate groups.

DU needs to get rid of any discussions that push hatred for women. "Men's rights" isn't a legitimate rights group anyhow.

If you are a group that is in power, you cannot be "oppressed" and therefore there are no "rights" for which to advocate.

[TreasonousBastard]

6. To my knowledge, there is not one MRA type...

posting in the Men's Group. The hosts will not allow that sort of thing.

Perhaps a quick peek in there to see what's actually happening might help.

[duffyduff]

7. The people might not belong to an organized group, but the arguments

sure come close to MRA "thinking" with some of those people.

[boston bean]

12. MRA's can't stand feminists. Many of the same posts you find

dissing feminism can be found at MRA sights as well.

Feminism must really be an issue for them, I guess.

[duffyduff]

28. I can hardly tell the difference with some of those posts/posters.

That mentality doesn't belong on a liberal or "Democratic" discussion board.

[boston bean]

8. I'm going to disagree with that a bunch of them believe

that false rape reports are extremely common. That is MRA.

A bunch of them believe that men are abused in relationships more than women are battered. That is MRA.

A bunch of them believe that their is no such thing a patriarchy.. That is MRA.

A bunch of the believe that they have a right to determine what is a good feminism and what is not, that is MRA.


I could go on.

[xulamaude]

23. Speaking of dangerous ideologies...

I am quite familiar with MRA 'talking points' and I have seen my fair share in TMG and in GD by both men and women.

Whether they are aware that they are propagating MRA ideology, or not, is the question.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

36. Plus One.

[thucythucy]

26. I took a quick peek as suggested

and here's what I found in the top ten:

1. Why I speak out against the Rad Fem movement

3. Found on a RadFem website

4. Totally Hot celebrity thread

5. Man commits suicide...when girlfriend won't stop shopping

7. "gender traitors" (a quick peak tells me it's largely about feminists using the term on other women--I can see why this is a burning issue for men) But I could be wrong--huge amount of verbiage here.

9. "interesting solution to getting ex-wife out of your life completely" (basically, a case study in how to screw your ex. out of her divorce settlement).

About a week ago a man on DU posted about his experience being raped. He received lots of support--but evidently no mention in a group supposed to be addressing men's issues. Is the rape of men not important? Or is "hot celebrity thread" just that much more compelling?

To be fair, there is a thread on male slaves in Dubai, which I didn't read (this is a quick peak, after all) so I'm just assuming this isn't somehow more feminist bashing. Though, honestly, given the above I really can't be certain.

But six out of the top ten threads being mostly either bashing feminists, or oogling celebrities?

Glad you had me take a look. Otherwise I never would have known.

This may not be out and out MRA crap (which would be truly outrageous on a progressive site) but a lot of it sure seems damn close.

Not wanting to criticise without making suggestions: how about, as OP topics: men's evolving role in child care; how men are stressed by having to conform to absurd patriachal stereotypes; men and war and post traumatic stress disorder; how can men support each other without reflexively putting down women; support for male rape survivors; support for male significant others of survivors; health risks that men are especially prone to; building a social safety net/support system for men caring for their ailing parents, spouses, children; advocating for paternity leave; how the rape of men and the threat of rape is a part of our "criminal justice system" and how can men (and women) organize around this issue.... etc. etc. etc.....

That's just off the top of my head.

The list of important issues that could be tackled by such a group seems endless.

Such a disappointment, then, to see so much of it seeming to be reflexive anti-feminism.

[Little Star]

30. + 1,000

[BainsBane]

34. Your suggestions are good

Only they refuse to admit patriarchy exists. Some insist they are the oppressed gender and that everything in society benefits women.

[thucythucy]

38. The sad irony is

that this buys into the very system that is abusing them. To use what is perhaps a poor analogy (but I'll use it anyway), it's like poor whites not supporting the civil rights movement, not understanding how racism is used in class oppression as well as racial oppression.

You can't act to change a system until you have a clear understanding of how that system works, its history, who benefits, and who loses.

Rape in prison is a perfect example. In a society that mostly ignores or sometimes even encourages rape, which occurs seemingly almost any time there is a power imbalance, it is entirely predictable that very many men in prison (and boys in juvenile detention) will end up as victims of rape and sexual violence. In fact, the whole topic often comes up as a joke, or as an implied threat to try to keep people in line. Men are raped in the military as well. The ONLY cogent analysis I've seen as to why this happens, and how to stop it, comes from feminists. I can see people critiquing that analysis (maybe even trying to refine it), but to reject feminism wholesale, as these folks seem to be doing, or to only focus on perceived slights men suffer at the hands of women, means the whole issue ends up being ignored--which, from my "quick peek" seems to be what's happened here.

And then, to top it off, you hear folks complaining about how feminists don't care about male survivors!

Anyway, enough ranting for one morning. Gotta go.

Best wishes.

Except to say: has anyone heard from Prism? I'm hoping he's okay, but not seeing anything from him (and maybe I just missed it) has me worried.

[seabeyond]

40. good point and fro the record. it was us feminists that called the prison rape joke, much at our

expense. and we did not let up. until we are now in a position where many will challenge the prison rape joke. and that strong majority telling those rape jokes ... are men. go figure.

but, once the men got how offensive the male rape jokes were, due to our diligence, we now have their support.

interesting that.

[Gothmog]

80. I did a quick look also

I found the same things that you did.

[BainsBane]

29. They may not identify as such

but many of the arguments are the same.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. I didn't even know we had a Men's Group.

And I'm not going to explore it.

Why not just think of it as a toxic waste site? Nasty, but probably better than allowing the toxins to be distributed through the rest of the environment.

[boston bean]

3. It's a group where they bash feminists. And they constantly call out HoF.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. "They constantly call out HoF"? Did you intend the irony? n/t

[seabeyond]

50. not even close jeff. nt

[LanternWaste]

54. Slow day in Totally Hawt Celebs thread...?

Slow day in Totally Hawt Celebs thread...?

[seabeyond]

68. lol. warren will kick it for two years then exclaim what a success the thread is. lol

what a set up you gave me, allowing me to say what i wanted to say for a while now. funny

you are a hoot.

[xulamaude]

75. *hahaha...snort...hahaha*

Aaaand, because I can't help myself:

[seabeyond]

76. ya. couldnt help myself. now the guys in that forum can say i actually lowered myself

to their level. but but but....

i say it with a huge grin.... does that help.

[seabeyond]

77. oh, btw... he has a thing for brunettes... lol.

quit being so catty woman.

[DURHAM D]

103. Hi seab.

This post went to jury. I thought you might enjoy the results.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Calling out a poster by name. This whole thread sucks with all the call outs. Civility will never be found at DU if this continues. Please hide.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Dec 12, 2013, 05:44 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Bullshit alert. Not a TOS violation.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: LEAVE SEA ALONE !
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

[seabeyond]

104. OH DURHAM... (oops) it is so good to see you. i love seeing your name in here.

Last edited Thu Dec 12, 2013, 11:44 PM - Edit history (1)

and you brought a gift. special. lol. all the friggin time. but, i hear it is all my fault. no, no one would be playing the system.

my favorite. can you guess.

juror number four.... i LUV you.

LEAVE SEA ALONE ! ... ya

well. love one too.


Bullshit alert... thank you. i agree. i was saying it in love.

what the hell i love the silent ones too.



thanks

[BainsBane]

114. Hey, it's political activism. Don't knock it.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Why not explore it and see just what it really is?

[boston bean]

5. yeah, I suggest the poster do so as well.

[xulamaude]

24. Yeah, that's a good idea. nt

[BainsBane]

27. We've all been there

I was banned for confronting them about gossiping about me. Redqueen was banned after a host called her a "w...e." Not after the comment he responded to, mind you, but days later when he got a hide for his insult. Some men have been banned for veering from the very narrow view of men's issues enforced in that space.

We all know what goes on there. Many of us have had entire threads there devoted to us individually, talking about how hideous and awful we are. The reason I avoid checking in there is it is all so incredibly insulting that it makes me angry and is just an overall downer. I don't meet anyone like that off line. There is no reason I have to subject myself to them here. The run ins in GD are plenty, believe me.

[BainsBane]

32. I recently told someone to look at it, just once

She was ill. She couldn't believe such a thing existed on DU. I suggested she might alert if she found something offensive, but she said going in there once was more than she could take. That is not an uncommon reaction.

Has a post in there ever gotten more than a handful of recs? Some people outside of HOF must occasionally find what we post here useful, since some OPs get dozens of recs.

[thucythucy]

83. I did.

See my post (#26) above.

Or has it radically changed in the past four or five hours?

[YoungDemCA]

111. You mean the concern trolling/whining about "misandry" and "radfems"?

Yeah, I've seen enough of it-as have many of us here.

[NuclearDem]

11. Except it spills over quite frequently into GD.

At least there it's easily exposed to daylight and criticism.

[seabeyond]

16. i think where the problem lies is it feeds the anger and disrespect and fabrications and it does

come out on the board. the mentality permeates, and we all have to deal with it over and over and over. we see it often in gd. the rape porn, rape apologist, no rape culture. rad women are emotionally damaged mentality.

[xulamaude]

25. Again, spot on Sea :) nt

[thucythucy]

39. Hi SeaBee!

Just to say love this post, and also, I haven't said "hi" in a while so here I am, saying:

Hi!!!

[seabeyond]

43. hi..... but, i have been enjoying you when you do pop in. love seeing you too.

always

and

of course



brrr, it is cold here. happy holidays.

[TreasonousBastard]

115. I gotta say how I have admired...

the total lack of anger, disrespect, and fabrication in this forum.

[BainsBane]

117. As opposed to the other group?

Translation: anger, women who have the nerve to criticize anything related to sexism or men.

Distortion: Not abiding by the narrow conception of topics some menz insist must be adhered to. Pesky analysis.

Disrespect: Can't argue with that one. Respect requires some sort of basis to work from, something to admire or at least stomach.

[xulamaude]

118. You forgot the sarcasm thingie

I think.

[seabeyond]

119. thank you treason. we have had to learn to walk this in grace. a fluid balance of soft tone,

strong, yet not aggressive. we do not want to scare. and a gentle smile, but not to big to be saucy. and a tilt of the head to add a hint of doubt, yet remain firm in belief.

it is a delicate balance. but, we gals work on it daily.

[libodem]

9. You can trash the whole group

And be done with it.

[boston bean]

10. I could, but I won't. Why turn a blind eye to that?

Why would you want me too?

[libodem]

20. Because it's upsetting to you

Goddess, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I can not change
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.


"Nothing can work damage to me
Except myself; the harm that I
Sustain I carry about with me
And never am a real sufferer
Except by my own fault.

(Ralph Waldo Emerson: Essay on Compensation)

[seabeyond]

21. who says having knowledge and being informed leave us powerless. i suggest otherwise.

i suggest if feminists had the attitude we could change nothing, we would all be one huge ass fail

[boston bean]

22. That is your interpretation of how I feel.

I'm not upset. I'm pretty disgusted that the bullshit remains unchecked and I wrote about it.

You quote the serenity prayer to me, but in Al anon they teach you to not be an enabler. So, I'm not going to enable by closing my mouth or turning my eyes. Obviously I have no power over it, that doesn't mean I lose my voice, does it.

[libodem]

44. .

"On this day I promise the Goddess and myself that
I will let go of the problem which is
destroying my peace of mind. I pray for
detachment from the situation, but not
from the suffering drinker who may be
helped to find the way to sobriety through
the change in my attitude and the love and
compassion I am able to express."

I think you could change out "drinker" and they "way to sobriety" for 'MRA' and 'quest for equal rights under the law'.

[seabeyond]

48. ya. we can all just be silent like we are told. wtf?? i know you are playing a game. i get it.

but, it has become tiring and old.

people think they are so clever in games. not really. people most always see thru it. maybe that is the point. maybe you are well aware that people see thru this. maybe that is your point. maybe you are getting a giggle while typing. maybe this is a passive agressive way of throwing jabs, thinking you wont be called by jury

interesting.

exploration of thought

love it

[Little Star]

19. Yes, but leaving that kind of stuff up for others to see...

is not very Progressive. Especially on a Democratic Board.

[BainsBane]

33. That's exactly what I have done

My sanity requires it.

[libodem]

35. I get it

"To adapt ourselves with a quiet
mind to what is possible and
attainable, therein lies happiness."


(I'm stealing quotes from my Al Anon book)

[Little Star]

46. Context please?....

From all my years in Al-anon, working with the books, a terrific sponsor and many hundreds of meetings I know that adapting ourselves with a quiet mind to what is possible and attainable, therein lies happiness is a goal worthy of achieving.

But the reality is, it takes a very long time to reach that point. That is not the starting point, it's more the ending part. It first requires acknowledging the problem and also the part you play in that problem (enabling). And that is a very difficult concept to grasp. I doubt many could actually grasp it's true meaning on their own.

They have Al-anon meetings to help people recognize the problem by sharing their stories. Problems are not solved by ignoring them. I also learned that I (and others) needed to speak up so that others could identify the reality of what they are confronting. Otherwise the denial is so great it tends to make one think they are crazy and alone.

So, I personally think implying that anyone should basically just quiet their own mind and all will just work out fine about any struggle is not very helpful.

There is a problem here and we first need to validate for that person that yes there is a problem not tell them to go quiet their own mind.

[xulamaude]

49. Thank you for that. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. excellent post. well said. thank you.

[BainsBane]

84. Absolutely, and very well said

but I also think it's okay to trash the group for my own well being. I can only take on so many battles, and I feel I do my part. Since I'm banned from the men's group, all I achieve by reading it is getting myself upset. I'm well aware of their schtick, and I see it played out in GD more and more all the time.

[Little Star]

91. I agree if it's just too much for anyone to see or read some...

of the shit that's allowed in there, trash group is the way to go.

I'm a thick skinned (for the most part) old gal and I like to keep my eyes and ears open to what they think of us feminists. Also what misinformation they let stand around these parts. I feel an obligation to speak out sometimes too.

You have fought plenty of these battles Bains & deserve our thanks. Sometimes we just need some time to take care of our own well being for a while. xoxoxo

[redqueen]

98. "Also what misinformation they let stand around these parts"

Exactly.

Disinformation needs to be called out.

[Little Star]

99. Or we women could just cover our eyes (trash group) & close our ears (let it go)....

so that that kind of crap can just fester like mold and be just as toxic and deadly. No thanks!

Sorry, our fight for women's rights is much too important to sit down and shut up. We've been fighting for the ERA to be ratified for far to long! For cripes sake they are still trying to undo our rights for legal abortion and female health care. Never mind our right to equal pay after all these years, etc. Ugh!

But they sure like to ogle & control our bodies.

edit to add: This statement doesn't apply to all men because there are plenty of good ones who stand with us.

[redqueen]

100. It is irritating in the extreme to see it called 'cruising for ammo'

Before they were hidden, there were links to MRA sites in the group's FAQ.

It may be that some people think that's acceptable. I'm glad a jury was alerted and hid the garbage.

(And that's just one example of the trash that's been hidden there. Much has been self-deleted as well. Wisely I'm sure.)

[seabeyond]

102. how young is too young for an old man to oogle. ya. nt

[seabeyond]

13. i saw a post that said some rad fems had serious emotional problems. for a poster to falt out say

that, using a thread in our forum, and many speaking of us, is in very very, ok disgustingly poor taste. i went back to try to find again, to get the exact words. i do not go in often, not familiar with the posts. i had walked away. and then thought how horrible it was the poster said that. i am not sure if he was implying anyone on du, any of us hof, are emotionally damaged. couldnt find it. dont like the room. i try to stay out.

but, that would be beyond wrong.

[BainsBane]

18. I did see that one

It was in the thread calling for a witch hunt of TA. The argument was that we were all women who had an ax to grind because of trauma, refused to get over it, and made their lives miserable as a result. (Of course no one forces them to read anything we write. That is why ignore user and trash group exist). Apparently not seeing men as inherently superior is the result of rape or abuse. Healthy women know to stay in their place.

[BainsBane]

14. Well, according to community standards all of that is okay

whereas challenging someone on ignoring or distorting facts to defend an accused rapists is not. See my post in ATA. It would appear that feminism is inappropriate and male supremacy acceptable.

[Little Star]

15. Seems like this place could sometimes learn something....

November 22, 2013 posted by Zoe Pagonis on Democrats.org.
It's was meant to be discussing Republican's failed out reach to women but seems like some around here could learn from it too.

It’s been a banner week in the GOP’s outreach to women

The GOP Autopsy Report: “Be conscious of developing a forward-leaning vision for voting Republican that appeals to women. The Republican Party needs to offer that same vision and message demonstrating that our policies, principles and vision address the concerns of female voters.”

Yet just this week we saw:
In Kentucky - Mitch McConnell's allies at the NRSC tweet an extremely offensive and sexist photo of senatorial candidate Alison Lundergan Grimes

In Texas - Tea Partier Rick Atkinson referred to State Senator Leticia Van de Putte as "barrio boopsie," insulting both her gender and ethnicity

.

You have to go read the article!
http://www.democrats.org/news/blog/its_been_a_banner_week_in_the_gops_outreach_to_women

[seabeyond]

17. btw.... seeing how i think there are so many areas men need to discuss honestly amongst themselves.

i was the first to support. encouraging the man who originally was pushing the idea and helping him to draft a letter asking for.

the concept in theory is good. women were opposed. for the very reason that it have proven itself out.

my bad.

i was wrong.

[Little Star]

31. Sometimes that's where nice gets you....

Not always but sometimes. Happens to all of us.

[redqueen]

57. I made that same mistake.

And the women who tried to warn me about what the group would actually end up being used for have since left.

[seabeyond]

69. yes. you did. and yes. nt

[CTyankee]

58. I am hugely disappointed, dispirited even, at the Mens Group outcome. Like you, I went to

check it out and instead of a group that I felt would naturally (because we are a progressive site, attracting progressive men) address the issues listed above by Boston Bean, I found whining, anger against women, hatred of feminists and sexist "humor."

It has to be a huge disappointment to the Administrators that their dream of a progressively Democratic website that would flourish, grow and nurture the cause of progressivism has largely turned sour when it comes to changing sexism. The opportunity for DU to have a vibrant group of men here truly supporting other men was there for them and instead they have largely chosen to remain angry and resentful, right back where they were to begin with and nothing for them improves.

This is just so sad.

[seabeyond]

70. "a vibrant group of men here truly supporting other men was there for them" THIS. this is what

i was hoping for. having two boys, and especially the oldest that delves into all this stuff, i thought it would be a wonderful place for this. allowing a place my son could interact and give him insight. like hell i would tell son about that group now. lol

but yes. that is what i saw also.

[seabeyond]

71. shit. i wanted to participate and have fun with it also. i LOVE this subject.... behavior.

i am so into it.

[CTyankee]

82. What a loss to the truly progressive men here who also would have loved a welcoming, supportive

place. But I view this generationally. The older male DUers who are caught up in the Mens Group seem to be in a time warp. I wonder if some of the men there don't call out the angry, hateful ones in their threads sometimes. Do you think there have been some who have said "Hey, buddy, knock it off..."?

[seabeyond]

86. there have been times when some step up. and then join in the mayham. and then step up. there are

angry younger ones, also. there are some that truly respect women. and there are some... well.

over all it is not a place i like to be. a lot of unjust (in my view) insults. they do it enough on the threads in gd, i do not need to read them in that forum.

periodically, seldom, but i have put up OPs in the forum. the last one was on male cancer pTA i liked. or a post i think is positive i will make a comment. or an all the way out there comment, i may disagree and leave it at that. it is their group.

[CTyankee]

88. There is one constant poster who saddens me a lot. He seems to have nothing better to do than

project his anger, even rage, against all the bad things women are responsible for in his life. A real case study, that one. He might just turn off guys who might want to take a look but get a little scared that they're are in a toxic zone and don't bother coming back. I think it repels as well as attracts men...

[smirkymonkey]

113. It's so pathetic.

What broken and weak men they are. I can't believe any reasonable woman would touch them with a ten foot pole.

I protested about men's objections to paying for women's birth control via insurance plans (I said that women don't get themeselves pregnant) and was met with a nasty comment and was summarily banned. So much for tolerance.

[BainsBane]

120. LOL

and most of them have children. I am pretty sure all of the hosts do. I wonder how they kids would feel knowing their fathers don't think they should pay insurance to help bring them in the world.

Lord, I'm the one without kids and I would never dream of adopting such a position. If I were pathologically selfish, I'd be a Teabagger.

[KansDem]

37. Hey! I had forgotten there was a "mens group"

Thanks for the reminder!...

[boston bean]

41. .

[BainsBane]

61. Happy we could oblige

Everyone needs to find their people.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. I use the term MEN loosely when I think of that group. -

the Demographics of the most prevalent posters would be interesting.

Other than that I am bored with that group and their antics. Their reading comprehension level leaves a lot to be desired. They evidently are not familiar with a common literary device known as a simile/metaphor/allegory. I pity them and their sad lot in life.

I agree with another poster when it was dubbed: The BOYS club.

The level of discourse there sinks to and continuously hovers at or about: The He Man Woman Haters Club.

[BainsBane]

55. I opt for menz

So if anyone sees me use that term, understand it does not mean men in general but instead a certain type, menz.

Wow. Quite the clip.

[CTyankee]

60. They don't know much about art either, evidently...

[BainsBane]

62. Ah, yes. The exposed nipple as porn

Who was the artist on that piece?

[CTyankee]

64. Gerrit van Honthurst, one of quite a few masters of the Golden Age of Dutch art of the 17th century.

We don't really know what the reference of the bared breast is about, altho there has been speculation it could indicate that she was supposed to represent a prostitute. That era reflected a lot about the social mores of the time which included a LOT of drinking and sex but also some fabulous still lifes of flowers and food and a genre of gentle domesticity. Not that it would be of any interest to some to look into the history...

[ismnotwasm]

73. Oh yeah

I couldn't even post in that thread


I do enjoy your art threads I don't post much, butI read them all the time and I learn a lot.
The naked human form has often been a topic of art-- not in the pornographic sense, although that existed as well, but as beauty. And you're so right--history is the thing.

[CTyankee]

81. Thanks. I get it if someone doesn't care for art that much...

my thing doesn't have to be anybody else's. But this was all about following BainsBane around and harassing her. So they had to pretend to have something to say and looking pretty boorish...

[seabeyond]

72. titty and nipple. that is what they brought to your thread on art. yea boys. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

116. yes, I saw your thread. Silly. Childish. Stupid stuff -

One thing about DU - we can sink to the lowest common denominator as quickly as any other site on the web.

[xulamaude]

47. I have been looking at the TMG since its inception

on more or less a daily basis.

I have friends who look at it too - anyone with an internet connection can look at it - and frankly TMG reads to me, and my friends, like any other internet space that is hostile to females - which is almost all of them.

But, that doesn't make it acceptable.

[ismnotwasm]

51. Since I have that group in the trash

I never know what they discuss. From what I understand, it's more a Men's Rights Activist group.

So sad, because there are topics such as toxic masculinity and societal expectations that plague men and truly undermines their self esteem and actual worth--something feminist discuss and problem solve-- Right along side with male allies and their various truly progressive organizations.

If all it wants to do is complain about feminists, or I suspect 'certain' (cough HoF cough) feminists out of ignorance, anger or silliness that's--rather strange. I hope they find something better to do with their time


Think I should help? I won't go to that particular group but here's a good resource for men. Some thought provoking articles on fatherhood, masculinity, domestic violence and sexuality without the inherent bias and incorrect information MRA's have infested the internet with-- well maybe a little, but it's not too bad.


http://www.sociosite.net/topics/men.php

[BainsBane]

56. They insist we aren't real feminists

Real feminists don't challenge patriarchy or men. They get permission from the menz before voicing concerns. So if menz like porn, a real feminist doesn't criticize porn. If men object to rape prevention PSAs, real feminists agree that the only appropriate rape prevention messages focus on what women need to do to avoid being raped. Real feminists, like menz, of course oppose rape and everything about it, but if the menz insist someone is innocent and charges trumped up, a real feminist agrees. If menz insist having sex with drunk or sleeping women isn't rape, real feminists agree. Most importantly, real feminists don't talk back to men. They gossip about fake feminists and join the menz in insulting them. I learned that in the men's group. It must be true.

As fake feminists, we in HOF are just too stupid to realize that sexism only exists in them A-rab countries. We Americans women need to be content we get to drive and vote and keep our friggin traps shut.

[ismnotwasm]

59. Well then

It's a very good thing I have the group trashed.

I remember the lamented Tavener saying if a women was "against" sex work, she wasn't a feminist. Went on quite the tirade about it. That was in DU 2. Or another one who still occasionally posts, saying 'baby got back' was a celebration of women's bodies.

I always feel in some discussions that significant background is so clearly missing. Any attempts to bring up historical context is ignored-- especially if it looks like it will interfere with instant gratification. And even if they were willing, I'm not their teacher. So generally I dismiss their opinions as completely irrelevant.

They lack the knowledge to make informed opinions, and while that's just tragic, the world is passing them by, because Intersectionality is what's happening today, and the time of dominance of the straight white male is passing.

Thank. God.

[thucythucy]

87. "Toxic masculinity"

That's excellent. Is that original? Can I steal it sometime?

[ismnotwasm]

89. Not original-- feel free

I think it might have been a men's advocacy group that started the term

[Warren Stupidity]

52. It does serve a useful function.

Like the gungeon, it is a honeypot. Not all men's group regulars are mra idiots, but mra idiots just can't stay away.

[zazen]

63. maybe a few DU male feminists could create their own Group?

I know we have some here. They don't have to agree with everything in the radical feminist fora--hell, we disagree here in HoF all the time anyway, right?

There are nice online fora outside of DU, like The Good Men Project, for example, that support that sort of thing. And I'm all for it. Ultimately, men confronting patriarchy have to be shored up through leadership with and by and for other men--not saying we can't share leadership on other issues, but as they struggle with stuff like how the porn industry manipulates their sexuality, there are some issues where they really need support from guys on a similar journey, not necessarily women who experience it very differently.

Perhaps if a core group of male feminist leadership--surely y'all are around here?-- monitored their own group and dealt with those issues, they could raise more awareness of the MRA-ishness of the current "Men's Group."

[ismnotwasm]

65. The Goodman project is a MRA group

That will occasionally post a decent article, but mostly is as egregiously anti-feminist as the rest of MRA organizations. Just packaged a bit prettier.

Male feminists are welcome as far as I'm concerned.

[boston bean]

67. I did read some stuff I thought was good there,

but turns out the guy who runs it is an MRA. We all live and learn... I don't think it started that way.... that's for sure..

[CTyankee]

66. I think DU's demographic, IIRC, is somewhat older and that might account for the tenor of the Mens

Group. It would be my guess. It is also a beacon of hope. As the "old guard" dies out, the new ones come in and change things...

[BainsBane]

74. It goes beyond that

Juries and site administrators establish what they want the site to be. Their decision is loud and clear. That group exists because they want it to exist, and the ideas discussed in there are increasingly voiced and supported in GD and throughout the site. That is what members and owners want the site to be, and that is what it is. They own it; they get to decide which views are promoted and which are shut down through jury hides and bans or the absence of bans. Since it is a private company, they have no responsibility to do anything they don't want. After that, it's up to us to choose whether we want to participate. I've become addicted to the site myself, but after spending 5 months volunteering here, I decided I can no longer do so. I can't control what is and isn't allowed, but I can control whether or not I donate my labor (which I estimate at 10-20 hrs per week over the past 5 months). Yesterday I decided I could no longer justify that donation.

[seabeyond]

78. good post. nt

[CTyankee]

85. Oh, I have often thought that a good deal of "recruitment" has gone on here with "old boys networks"

causing a kind of reinforcement of beliefs. If a new breed doesn't come in and change the place, then DU will be lost as far as progressive women (and progressive men who care about them) are concerned down the line. DU will largely become irrelevant to all except those for whom it IS a country for old men, to paraphrase Yeats. Younger progressive men will simply not want to be DUers. It will just not be "cool."

Sad. It had a bright beginning, with high hopes...being "left behind" is an unkind fate...

[xulamaude]

92. Since I pay some attention to TMG

my take is that most of the 'regulars' there are in the 50-ish range. I am 50-ish myself.

The overflow of the 'attitude' of TMG into GD seems to be spearheaded by a 'younger' crowd.

[CTyankee]

94. but are the younger crowd also in TMG? I'm not sure I get what you mean...

[xulamaude]

96. Not so much. Mostly

I'm trying to say that the regulars are not all that 'old' - they would have come of age during the 70s/80s when the 'second wave' of feminism was at its height.

And I'll leave it there

[CTyankee]

97. I get that. I'm thinking about the 20 somethings that are up and coming NOW...they are

used to women as equals in many respects...what was once considered "second wave" is now just the way it is.
It isn't presented as "feminist."

[seabeyond]

95. that is interesting. and point. yes. nt

[Warpy]

79. I see it as a safety valve for the lunacy that exists in every party

It's why we also have the Gungeon and the Creative Speculation groups.

There are places I don't go on DU. The Men's Group is one. Specific religious groups are another. I just don't belong there and I don't have to cruise them for ammo. There's plenty of that available in GD.

[SCantiGOP]

90. I agree with the OP

Just looked at the forum for the first time and put 2 posters on my ignore list, just to avoid future aggravation.

[BainsBane]

93. If I might suggest

Perhaps you could rec the thread to show support? I don't know that the administrators will pay attention, but they might think about it if this thread gets a lot of recs.

[Skittles]

101. eh, they're like the gun humpers

ignore them

[BainsBane]

105. The gun folk do a lot of damage

If it were so easy to ignore them, we wouldn't have 32,000 deaths a year from guns. Fortunately, the menz don't have anywhere near that kind of influence except online.

[boston bean]

106. What am I minced meat?? No offer of an ass kicking!!!

LOL

[seabeyond]

107. lol lol. nt

[BainsBane]

108. You can't blame her

for not wanting to stick her foot up there.

[Skittles]

109. I have found when I actually talk to these knuckle draggers

it isn't women per se that bother them - it's ONE WOMAN in particular who did them wrong - unfortunately, in their tiny little minds, that one gal presents ALL WOMEN.....they are simply not worth the time and effort to deal with

[YoungDemCA]

110. The continued existence of that group-and the validation of their views in GD...

...really says a lot about what DU has become, and it ain't pretty.

K&R.

[BainsBane]

112. That really is the issue

When I was on DU2 years ago, I never saw any of this kind of stuff. It has festered and grown to the point where it is helping set community standards. If it were about just one group, I'd say who cares. It's not though.