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Men get it (Original Post) BainsBane Feb 2014 OP
A lot absolutely do. TDale313 Feb 2014 #1
That is a great thread and yeah,I absolutely believe sufrommich Feb 2014 #2
I'm hoping this thread you link is sending a major message--to admins as well. hlthe2b Feb 2014 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author A-Schwarzenegger Feb 2014 #6
I also PMed him shortly before he locked it BainsBane Feb 2014 #7
I wonder if skinner is aware that even though DURHAM D Feb 2014 #11
It is a great thread gollygee Feb 2014 #4
agreed. nt BainsBane Feb 2014 #5
Bonobos make me objectify women... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2014 #8
How is your boss holding up? Squinch Feb 2014 #10
... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2014 #13
That's where the hope and the love is ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #9
I saw a lot of names of people who seldom get involved in these Squinch Feb 2014 #12
yes, really. BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2014 #18
I know, that makes me so mad, too. kcr Feb 2014 #28
I agree. BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2014 #30
good, maybe people are tired of the pro libertarian bs JI7 Feb 2014 #14
They are creative BainsBane Feb 2014 #15
they went there? BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2014 #31
Just posted in that thread. UtahLib Feb 2014 #16
I'd like to think that most of us chromosome-challenged types do. riqster Feb 2014 #17
Probably our Patriarchal society to blame. ErikJ Feb 2014 #19
Yes, but society is comprised of individuals BainsBane Feb 2014 #20
The problem is the women objectify themselves also ErikJ Feb 2014 #21
Watch this BainsBane Feb 2014 #22
You cant deny this is a very Patriarchal society. Women will ErikJ Feb 2014 #23
The question is what are YOU going to do? BainsBane Feb 2014 #25
So who do you want us to focus on? KitSileya Feb 2014 #27
You can't objectify yourself when society objectifies you before you even know what's going on. redqueen Feb 2014 #24
wow. powerful statement by John Berger. Thanks for posting that. Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #36
maybe they are doing it for their girlfriend, why do guys assume it's all for some guy ? JI7 Feb 2014 #26
Yes Warren does 'get it' JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #29
This board almost is a support group to some people. JoeyT Feb 2014 #32
And this is why JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #33
I think it's about reclaiming power BainsBane Feb 2014 #34
This - yes yes yes! JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #35
this Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #37

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
3. I'm hoping this thread you link is sending a major message--to admins as well.
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 09:50 PM
Feb 2014

Most here know what progressivism IS and IS NOT.

Waay past time to address this issue and I suspect that particular thread is what induced Skinner to act by hiding the "G-force" thread.

Response to hlthe2b (Reply #3)

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
7. I also PMed him shortly before he locked it
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:07 PM
Feb 2014

about the person who posted the thread, actually. (Not that I have any influence). Plus he was getting a ton of alerts on that thread.

DURHAM D

(32,609 posts)
11. I wonder if skinner is aware that even though
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:31 PM
Feb 2014

he locked the thread the videos are still viewable.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
4. It is a great thread
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 09:55 PM
Feb 2014

and I do think most men here at DU get it, but I think the others also get it but actually intend to create a hostile environment.

ismnotwasm

(41,980 posts)
9. That's where the hope and the love is
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:23 PM
Feb 2014

I'm having a FB conversation on race with a white friend. It took like a paragraph for him to see my point. It's great. There's the first responder to the post who is an ass, not nessisary racist, but an ass, but he clearly didn't choose to discuss it and let it be.

Squinch

(50,949 posts)
12. I saw a lot of names of people who seldom get involved in these
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:33 PM
Feb 2014

threads, who were very supportive of Warren's post. And some who tend to "hee hee" at the other T&A threads who seemed like they were hearing the point. It was great after all the crap of the last few days.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
18. yes, really.
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 12:34 AM
Feb 2014

that's good.

I hope that allies will realize that it's important for them to respond to sexist baiting. Tut-tutting but saying nothing enables them.

Finally, such repeated sexist baiting should be grounds for tombstoning, or whatever it's called now. Because they actually like the attention we give them by trying to raise consciousness. Or defend ourselves against their attacks.

Banning the people who react angrily to REPEATED BASHING, ALERTING, HATRED, etc., while letting smug, word-gaming, malicious harassers get away with it is so wrong, I don't even have words for it.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
28. I know, that makes me so mad, too.
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 03:48 AM
Feb 2014

It isn't right. I'm glad Skinner locked the thread, but Sea's banning again is still outrageous and unfair. The host and jury system is crap.

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
30. I agree.
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 10:29 AM
Feb 2014

Jury system sounds good in theory, but there is no judge guiding the proceedings, as in a real jury. No one to review the material as a whole and determine the source.

It's like a deliberately started fire--arresting the fire and letting the arsonist go free.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
14. good, maybe people are tired of the pro libertarian bs
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:40 PM
Feb 2014

arguing right wing free market capitalism to justify viewing women as things.

and then trying to compare themselves to persecuted gays by claiming them looking at images is the same as gays coming out of the closet .

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
15. They are creative
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 10:46 PM
Feb 2014

In coming up with ways to justify male privilege and domination. The poor persecuted me, just like gays took some real imagination. I have to say I love how William769 cut them down to size in Warren Stupidity's thread. He clearly doesn't feel any common cause with them.

UtahLib

(3,179 posts)
16. Just posted in that thread.
Tue Feb 18, 2014, 11:11 PM
Feb 2014

I was happy to see people banding together in not allowing the few knuckle heads to derail the thread with their usual tactics.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
17. I'd like to think that most of us chromosome-challenged types do.
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 12:29 AM
Feb 2014

But the males that don't get it (and those who WON'T get it) make my fist itch.

Signed, an ally.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
20. Yes, but society is comprised of individuals
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:18 AM
Feb 2014

and each of us can choose how we interact in the world. Do we respect others enough to hear their concerns about a hostile environment created by objectifying images of women, or do we simply not respect other human beings enough to care?

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
21. The problem is the women objectify themselves also
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:28 AM
Feb 2014

to please the "patriarchs". Painful high heels, tight clothes, hours of makeup and hair prep. All to turn on their patriarchs (and/or each other!).

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
22. Watch this
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:43 AM
Feb 2014

It is mistaken to assume how women dress justifies objectification. Yes, some women do participate in the objectification of other women and even self objectification, but to identify that as the problem is mistaken. If you take a shower, shave, and put on a clean shirt, would that justify treating you as less than human? I think not.

 

ErikJ

(6,335 posts)
23. You cant deny this is a very Patriarchal society. Women will
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:48 AM
Feb 2014

torture themselves to wear painful high-heels all day as a result.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
27. So who do you want us to focus on?
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:59 AM
Feb 2014

The women who wear high-heels, or the society, run by men, who covertly demands that she wear high-heels in order to be taken seriously? Whose actions should we try to change? Women who starve themselves because they have been saturated by images of anorexic models in ads that tell them that they must be anorexic to be normal, or the companies who post these images and the men and women who declaim it is their right to enjoy these pictures?

Too many want to change the behavior of the women who do these things to survive, rather than change the circumstances that makes it necessary for them to do these things to survive.

redqueen

(115,103 posts)
24. You can't objectify yourself when society objectifies you before you even know what's going on.
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:15 AM
Feb 2014

“You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her, put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting “Vanity,” thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you had depicted for you own pleasure.”

― John Berger, Ways of Seeing



Yeah I know Laci refers to self-objectification, but many/most feminists will have a problem with that idea.

JI7

(89,249 posts)
26. maybe they are doing it for their girlfriend, why do guys assume it's all for some guy ?
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:50 AM
Feb 2014

but the issue is still more about how that doesn't mean she should be treated as a thing.

JustAnotherGen

(31,823 posts)
29. Yes Warren does 'get it'
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 10:14 AM
Feb 2014

But I just saw something really disturbing in GD . . . I responded to it to - in kindness and out of concern.

What's concerning to me -


Some of these folks really take this web site very very SERIOUSLY. The past few weeks I've gotten a creepy feeling that this is their be all and end all in life. It's where they get their 'soul fed' so to speak. Losing their posting privileges would be devastating to them. Being cut off from this community would be devastating to them. They have a very real emotional attachment to DU.

I can understand that mindset in support group formats - to some extent. But only to some extent.

Maybe it's my degrees? Mass Communications and Political Science - that makes me see this as a grand petri dish of ideas - yet something I don't need to be attached to? I.E. I don't get an emotional payoff from DU.

Here's the thing BB - I don't think you get an emotional payoff from DU either. Lately I'm sure there's been some amusement and horror - but most important and ever present you get and give IDEAS. I think you like to explore and share IDEAS. Concepts of thought and being.


And the this morning at about 5:30 a.m. - it dawned on me - people who are idea people are engaging with people who have turned this into their very life - their being - their emotional payoffs -

Their very identity is linked to this site. And they identify with OTHERS who have linked their identity and popularity - circle of influence and admiration to this site.

Warren wrote a beautiful post. He seriously did. But the beauty of Warren? He doesn't get an emotional payoff from me writing that. He shared a concept an idea - and that's that.

And what he encounted on that thread? Was the cult of online personality.

I think we all need to step back, breathe and start to try and see it. And I believe - truly believe - that you will see the positive intent in what I've just written.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
32. This board almost is a support group to some people.
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:22 PM
Feb 2014

Liberals that live in red states, non-white people that live in ridiculously racist areas, LGBT people that live in areas hostile to their existence, women and men that support feminist thought that hail from areas where the patriarchy is not only defended, but venerated, people that are part of a non-majority (non)religion that live in the Bible Belt, etc etc.

Just knowing there are others out there like you when you're stuck in a place where that's an easy thing to forget can be a huge deal to people.

I think that's one of the many reasons people are getting so angry about the original threads that started this. A progressive message board should be a place women can come without having to fight an uphill battle against misogyny, so it's even more hurtful to women that come here in the hopes of not having to fight the same battles ad infinitum when they're coming from a place where they've been fighting those battles for ages and the fights often end in a loss because the power structure is too firmly established.

"Finally a place I can be myself!" rapidly turns into "Oh god. Not this shit again."

JustAnotherGen

(31,823 posts)
33. And this is why
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:51 PM
Feb 2014

I intend to start reaching out to the women and minorities at DU on a personal level .. .


A progressive message board should be a place women can come without having to fight an uphill battle against misogyny, so it's even more hurtful to women that come here in the hopes of not having to fight the same battles ad infinitum when they're coming from a place where they've been fighting those battles for ages and the fights often end in a loss because the power structure is too firmly established.


But make no mistake - from what I've seen shared by the women of the HOF group - and my fellow groups members in the AA group -

We have lives. I've also noted that specifically for those women who are heterosexual - we have men in our lives who are very very kind, and very very loving. My husband reads - English is not his first language so he does not feel comfortable posting here (except for Saturday night with bravenak) - he reads a great deal.

He picked up on the fact that seabeyond had been given a vacay yesterday before I did. And he doesn't understand why people 'pick on that sweetheart'. Now - he's not being sexist. Again, different culture. But she along with several other women that he follows in this group are 'sweethearts' as far as he is concerned who are just trying to be heard. Perhaps this is not the best place for women to be heard.

And perhaps - he knows I'm capable of developing a successful online community where women can be heard . . . But I digress. We all HAVE lives. So often I would like to post, "Hey Mister! I HAVE a life!"

But I don't - to keep the peace. And well, then I would get alerted on for pointing out that some guy on the other end of the internet does NOT have a life.

See - lately - that's the way it's been working around here.

BainsBane

(53,032 posts)
34. I think it's about reclaiming power
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:24 PM
Feb 2014

that they may not have in their personal lives or offline in general, more than not having a life at all.
Note that the concerns we have raised, like a hostile environment, have been prohibited in workplaces for decades. I have never worked anywhere or been in a public place where pictures of that sort were acceptable. That's not to say that men don't have them in their own homes, but they typically know better than to impose them to female acquaintances. The actions here are somewhat similar to those that led to the landmark sexual harassment case, Jensen vs. Evelyth Taconite, but since this is the internet we are spared some of the more disgusting behavior that accompanied the posting of sexual images of women to claim the mine as exclusive male space and humiliate the female miners in an attempt to force them out of their jobs.

If you work for a public agency, a non-profit of any kind, a corporation, or any employer who is concerned with following labor law, the sort of behavior that is common on DU is strictly prohibited. Some here have been clear as to their motives. One referred to it as "civil disobedience." They think they are protesting a "handful" of HOF members. What they are actually opposing is the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that forms the legal basis for sexual harassment law. The same is true with threads insisting that African Americans be "honored" when presented with obviously racist and stereotypical fried chicken and watermelon dinners. They resent that they should be asked to take into account the concerns of anyone who is different from them, and they are striking out in anger. Witness some of the hostile reactions in my thread with photos of female athletes. A couple of people referred to it as "sickening" and promoting "victimization."

The protestations that only a few radical feminists find the posting of commercialized sexualized images objectionable simply do not ring true. Is it possible that none of those people has held a job at any point in the past thirty years? If they had, they would not find these concepts unfamiliar. Or, more likely, do they know exactly what they are doing and are determined to create a hostile environment designed to drive out many women and people of color to establish DU as pre-modern male space?

Ultimately, the responsibility for all of this lies with the administrators. What is particularly incongruous is that it is members of the Democratic Party's major constituencies, African Americans and women, who are treated as interlopers, as outside the mainstream. The fact is we are not. Rather, some are seeking to reestablish a fiefdom for a particular kind of white male dominance that hasn't existed in this country for at least twenty-five years. I believe they do so precisely because they feel so disempowered offline and they hold women and people of color responsible for that.

JustAnotherGen

(31,823 posts)
35. This - yes yes yes!
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:36 PM
Feb 2014

The fact is we are not. Rather, some are seeking to reestablish a fiefdom for a particular kind of white male dominance that hasn't existed in this country for at least twenty-five years. I believe they do so precisely because they feel so disempowered offline and they hold women and people of color responsible for that.

Tuesday Afternoon

(56,912 posts)
37. this
Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:45 PM
Feb 2014
... their very life - their being - their emotional payoffs -

Their very identity is linked to this site. And they identify with OTHERS who have linked their identity and popularity - circle of influence and admiration to this site.


yes. some people are leading a virtual life.

sad, really.
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